My Adventurers League Barbarian is a 16/14/16/8/10/10 spread and path of the Totem Warrior (Bear). With 5 ASI levels, it means I can pick a feat and still max out STR and CON to make sure I get the 24 max if I hit max level.
Now, should I use my 5th ASI for a feat, or just put it into DEX for that extra AC?
The feats I'm looking to get are Shield Master, Touch or Lucky, which are all useful for a Barbarian.
Shield Master is great as I get advantage on strength checks, so It'll be easy to knock an enemy prone, and my bonus action doesn't really get used otherwise apart from raging. Granted this ability is similar to the Wolf Totemic Attunement at level 14. While Shield Master allows me to avoid spells better, the Wolf Totemic Attunement doesn't require a strength check. But if I take Shield Master, then I can take either Eagle or Bear at level 14.
Lucky is always useful.
Tough works well with the Bear Totem as it essentially doubles its effectiveness.
The aside: IMHO I think Shield Master (which I admit I'm a total fan-boy of and would add to almost any class) makes you a caster's nightmare.
Barbarians I think have some of the most interesting sub-class options.
Great Weapon Master plus Savage Attacker can be... savage.
Mobility plus Savage Attacker can mean the enemy might never get those return attacks with Advantage (I'm planning this on character).
Polearm Master gets you another attack as a B.Action if you don't go Berserker.
Shieldmaster gets you another "attack" (no damage, but boosts the next attacks) as a B.Action.
Duel Wielder means you have to use a rapier for a 1d8 damage, but you can duel wield and still have a bonus AC.
An ASI boost will give all of your attacks +1 to hit and damage.
A Feat can mean you get another attack as a Bonus Action which means you get another attack a turn with the Rage damage bonus. I like feats they can let you "bend" the rules to play a slightly different game.
I'm in an AL(Hence my point buy spread), so my access to magic items depends on what drops in a session.
I'm in the order of the gauntlet, so eventually I'll be able to get the cloak of protection, which looked to be the best option for a barbarian, which will also make it difficult to even land shots on me.
That's also what I loved about barbarians when I first created one. Despite being a damage sponge, there's so much versatility to choose from within even the Path of the Totem Warrior. Both level 3 and 14 have amazing in combat abilities depending on the party need. It's been tempting not to take the path of the wolf for the advantage on any roll an ally wants to make on a creature I'm near.
Since I'm level 4 for AL, I'm not locked into anything yet, which is why I'm debating on what to take. If I don't take Shield Master, then I just go back to a strictly heavy weapon and get the AC boost from my +4 CON. Still not as effective as having a shield, but I'll do more damage and can take more punishment with the higher health pool.
I really love GWM with Reckless Attack, you can do some serious damage doing that starting as early as level 4. Add your resistance when raging and the giving advantage isn't that big of a deal. Lucky is just an all around amazing talent that can be useful in lots of situations. Touch I don't think gives you as much bang for your buck as you'll already be super tanky as is.
I forgot about GWM. Plus I'm half-orc so I'm wanting to score crits to do massive damage.
Math wise, does reckless attack essentially cancel out the -5 with the GWM attack?
I'm also trying to figure out what would do more raw damage output if my attacks hit. Dual Wielder gives me a third attack with my bonus action once I hit 5. But that's capped out at 1d8 along with 1d8 + STR for my main hand.
I'll be dealing 3D8 + 2STR.
With a heavy weapon, it'd be 2D12 +2STR.
So 2 weapons give me more consistent damage, but a heavy weapon can potentially do more crit damage. And being a half-orc Barbarian means crit damage will scale insanely as I level up.
There's a lot to think about for potential barbarian builds!
I love the idea of Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, but honestly... I'm a bit of a coward and prioritize defense over offense.
There are people here that will give you better math. Adv is "basically" having a +5 to your attack so Savage Attack and Great Weapon Master will balance each other out. A lot depends on the AC of a target.
Level 5: Action: 1d10+STR+2 & 1d10+STR+2 B.Action: 1d10+2 The funny thing with Polearm Master is you can walk into melee, hit them your Action attack and B.Action attack, then move away... giving them an AoO. When they do move back into melee on their turn you get a *another* attack. You're effectively giving a free attack, but that does use up their ReAction and gives you another free attack... so it's probably an even exchange.
Does it matter what 1 handed weapon is used? All the good ones max out at 1d8, so a rapier isn't required.
Also, the polearm's bonus attack is only a 1d4. It doesn't say if I get my STR bonus on damage though.
And I forgot about my rage. So dual wielding will always get an extra 2 damage per round on hit, but will on average do less damage on crits. But will also have a better chance of hitting a crit with 3 attacks in a turn. (14.3% of the time as opposed to 9.75%. Not much, but it makes a difference.) Those numbers get bigger if I use Reckless attack. Hitting a 20 with adv is a 9.75% chance. That means with 3 attacks, I have a 26.5% chance of getting at least 1 crit, which is really nice. With using a heavy weapon, I only have an 18.5% chance of critting.
My current party has a ranger, so using shield master's bonus attack means that he'll get disadvantage if he acts before the enemy gets a chance to get up. But on the other hand, any other melee allies will get advantage. It doesn't matter for my character as reckless attack can always grant me advantage when needed. The main benefit of shield master would be preventing damage against mages where possible.
Based on the raw damage, going Dual Wielder seems like a good medium ground as I get +1 to AC while still doing more damage. Going Shield master gives me more surviveability.
Edit: The numbers all end up being 24 max damage for the rolls a turn at level 5 for standard attacks, whether it's 2 heavy weapon attacks, 3 single hand attacks with Dual Wielder, or 3 reach weapon attacks with Polearm Master. It all depends on what I'd like for flavor.
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Overall, I'd say GWM if you want to play a heavy weapon character. Based on what you've said, this is what I'd pick.
Shield Master is good if you would rather be more control-focused than damage. I honestly think this is much better for Battlemaster or EK fighters.
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Interesting claim. Would you be willing to share how you got to that 3.33?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Interesting claim. Would you be willing to share how you got to that 3.33?
Like I said. I ran them in a simulation and just averaged the results minus 10.5 (the average d20 roll). The average rolls with advantage came out to about 13.83 and for disadvantage about 7.17
Shield Master is good if you would rather be more control-focused than damage. I honestly think this is much better for Battlemaster or EK fighters.
I disagree with you here Sillvva.
EK require 2 feats to function Warcaster & Shieldmaster so your talking minimum level 8 for Shield Master or Alt Human at level 4. Otherwise you won't always have a hand free for your somatic components.
Battlemaster's abilities use up a lot of ReActions and Bonus Action, and so compete with Shield Master for useful things to do. Combining the two denies the other. I'd actually argue Battlemaster makes a much better Great Weapon Fighter because you're less likely to be using those actions otherwise.
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Interesting claim. Would you be willing to share how you got to that 3.33?
Like I said. I ran them in a simulation and just averaged the results minus 10.5 (the average d20 roll). The average rolls with advantage came out to about 13.83 and for disadvantage about 7.17
I didn't trust your data, so I made a chart (using Microsoft Excel) and found the average d20 roll with advantage to be 13.825 and with disadvantage to be 7.175. Now I have to review my equation for calculating averages. Yay.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Interesting claim. Would you be willing to share how you got to that 3.33?
Like I said. I ran them in a simulation and just averaged the results minus 10.5 (the average d20 roll). The average rolls with advantage came out to about 13.83 and for disadvantage about 7.17
I didn't trust your data, so I made a chart (using Microsoft Excel) and found the average d20 roll with advantage to be 13.825 and with disadvantage to be 7.175. Now I have to review my equation for calculating averages. Yay.
Which is also what mine came out to be. Because the average d20 roll is 10.5, subtract 10.5 from 13.83 and 7.17 and you get about +3.33 and -3.33.
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How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Interesting claim. Would you be willing to share how you got to that 3.33?
Like I said. I ran them in a simulation and just averaged the results minus 10.5 (the average d20 roll). The average rolls with advantage came out to about 13.83 and for disadvantage about 7.17
I didn't trust your data, so I made a chart (using Microsoft Excel) and found the average d20 roll with advantage to be 13.825 and with disadvantage to be 7.175. Now I have to review my equation for calculating averages. Yay.
Which is also what mine came out to be. Because the average d20 roll is 10.5, subtract 10.5 from 13.83 and 7.17 and you get about +3.33 and -3.33.
I'm pedantic and lazy. +3.325 and -3.325.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Shield Master is good if you would rather be more control-focused than damage. I honestly think this is much better for Battlemaster or EK fighters.
I disagree with you here Sillvva.
EK require 2 feats to function Warcaster & Shieldmaster so your talking minimum level 8 for Shield Master or Alt Human at level 4. Otherwise you won't always have a hand free for your somatic components.
Battlemaster's abilities use up a lot of ReActions and Bonus Action, and so compete with Shield Master for useful things to do. Combining the two denies the other. I'd actually argue Battlemaster makes a much better Great Weapon Fighter because you're less likely to be using those actions otherwise.
Yeah, I tend to make alt humans, so I was a bit biased there. I've played that type of Eldritch Knight before and the versatility of ways I could manipulate my enemies was great.
As for Battlemaster, I have no problems having more things I can do. Sure it makes decision making more work, but that's half the fun imo. One interesting thing I did in a lvl 4 one shot game with this build was to push an enemy 15ft toward a GWM character (pushing attack maneuver), then knock it prone with a bonus action to give him advantage on his next turn. I also had Commander's Strike. Because hitting level 5 (assuming I built the character for real) would mean I could then, give the GWM guy a reaction attack. Interesting thing is, "I believe" you can bonus action shove between extra attacks. So I could knock the guy prone with Shield Master, then Commander's Strike with my extra attack to give the GWM guy advantage on a free attack as well as the attacks on his next turn. This is also good for rogues and things that hit hard in general. Combine with a party member's zone spells, knock them prone and them push them into it.
If you can get creative, having lots of uses for your bonus action and reaction can make games more interesting. It's always more fun when you're not just doing the same stuff every time.
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Yeah. The downside of shield master barbarian is that I'm not capitalizing on the advantage on knocking prone, since I can always get advantage via reckless attack. But the other abilities make me even more tanky. That just means I'll be dealing less damage though.
darkwonders, I consider that a feature not a bug. I would say you're not using Reckless Attack as often and keep your AC higher, because you don't have to Reckless Attack when you knock them down.
The trade off is that you'd be doing much less damage with a smaller weapon for a little more survivability. You could doing the GWM thing with a 2d6 or 1d12 weapon.
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My Adventurers League Barbarian is a 16/14/16/8/10/10 spread and path of the Totem Warrior (Bear). With 5 ASI levels, it means I can pick a feat and still max out STR and CON to make sure I get the 24 max if I hit max level.
Now, should I use my 5th ASI for a feat, or just put it into DEX for that extra AC?
The feats I'm looking to get are Shield Master, Touch or Lucky, which are all useful for a Barbarian.
Shield Master is great as I get advantage on strength checks, so It'll be easy to knock an enemy prone, and my bonus action doesn't really get used otherwise apart from raging. Granted this ability is similar to the Wolf Totemic Attunement at level 14. While Shield Master allows me to avoid spells better, the Wolf Totemic Attunement doesn't require a strength check. But if I take Shield Master, then I can take either Eagle or Bear at level 14.
Lucky is always useful.
Tough works well with the Bear Totem as it essentially doubles its effectiveness.
Depending on your access to magic items, and your willingness to use up Attunement slots.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Health, can make up for not spending them on ASIs.
The aside: IMHO I think Shield Master (which I admit I'm a total fan-boy of and would add to almost any class) makes you a caster's nightmare.
Barbarians I think have some of the most interesting sub-class options.
An ASI boost will give all of your attacks +1 to hit and damage.
A Feat can mean you get another attack as a Bonus Action which means you get another attack a turn with the Rage damage bonus. I like feats they can let you "bend" the rules to play a slightly different game.
I'm in an AL(Hence my point buy spread), so my access to magic items depends on what drops in a session.
I'm in the order of the gauntlet, so eventually I'll be able to get the cloak of protection, which looked to be the best option for a barbarian, which will also make it difficult to even land shots on me.
That's also what I loved about barbarians when I first created one. Despite being a damage sponge, there's so much versatility to choose from within even the Path of the Totem Warrior. Both level 3 and 14 have amazing in combat abilities depending on the party need. It's been tempting not to take the path of the wolf for the advantage on any roll an ally wants to make on a creature I'm near.
Since I'm level 4 for AL, I'm not locked into anything yet, which is why I'm debating on what to take. If I don't take Shield Master, then I just go back to a strictly heavy weapon and get the AC boost from my +4 CON. Still not as effective as having a shield, but I'll do more damage and can take more punishment with the higher health pool.
I really love GWM with Reckless Attack, you can do some serious damage doing that starting as early as level 4. Add your resistance when raging and the giving advantage isn't that big of a deal. Lucky is just an all around amazing talent that can be useful in lots of situations. Touch I don't think gives you as much bang for your buck as you'll already be super tanky as is.
I forgot about GWM. Plus I'm half-orc so I'm wanting to score crits to do massive damage.
Math wise, does reckless attack essentially cancel out the -5 with the GWM attack?
I'm also trying to figure out what would do more raw damage output if my attacks hit. Dual Wielder gives me a third attack with my bonus action once I hit 5. But that's capped out at 1d8 along with 1d8 + STR for my main hand.
I'll be dealing 3D8 + 2STR.
With a heavy weapon, it'd be 2D12 +2STR.
So 2 weapons give me more consistent damage, but a heavy weapon can potentially do more crit damage. And being a half-orc Barbarian means crit damage will scale insanely as I level up.
There's a lot to think about for potential barbarian builds!
A lot of it comes down to play style.
I love the idea of Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, but honestly... I'm a bit of a coward and prioritize defense over offense.
There are people here that will give you better math. Adv is "basically" having a +5 to your attack so Savage Attack and Great Weapon Master will balance each other out. A lot depends on the AC of a target.
To do some MathFu on damage remember.
Duel Wielding Rapier while raging would be:
Level 4:
Action: 1d8+STR+2, B.Action: 1d8+2
Level 5:
Action: 1d8+STR+2 & 1d8+STR+2 B.Action: 1d8+2
Polearm Master:
Level 4:
Action: 1d10+STR+2, B.Action: 1d4+2
Level 5:
Action: 1d10+STR+2 & 1d10+STR+2 B.Action: 1d10+2
The funny thing with Polearm Master is you can walk into melee, hit them your Action attack and B.Action attack, then move away... giving them an AoO. When they do move back into melee on their turn you get a *another* attack. You're effectively giving a free attack, but that does use up their ReAction and gives you another free attack... so it's probably an even exchange.
Does it matter what 1 handed weapon is used? All the good ones max out at 1d8, so a rapier isn't required.
Also, the polearm's bonus attack is only a 1d4. It doesn't say if I get my STR bonus on damage though.
And I forgot about my rage. So dual wielding will always get an extra 2 damage per round on hit, but will on average do less damage on crits. But will also have a better chance of hitting a crit with 3 attacks in a turn. (14.3% of the time as opposed to 9.75%. Not much, but it makes a difference.) Those numbers get bigger if I use Reckless attack. Hitting a 20 with adv is a 9.75% chance. That means with 3 attacks, I have a 26.5% chance of getting at least 1 crit, which is really nice. With using a heavy weapon, I only have an 18.5% chance of critting.
My current party has a ranger, so using shield master's bonus attack means that he'll get disadvantage if he acts before the enemy gets a chance to get up. But on the other hand, any other melee allies will get advantage. It doesn't matter for my character as reckless attack can always grant me advantage when needed. The main benefit of shield master would be preventing damage against mages where possible.
Based on the raw damage, going Dual Wielder seems like a good medium ground as I get +1 to AC while still doing more damage. Going Shield master gives me more surviveability.
Edit: The numbers all end up being 24 max damage for the rolls a turn at level 5 for standard attacks, whether it's 2 heavy weapon attacks, 3 single hand attacks with Dual Wielder, or 3 reach weapon attacks with Polearm Master. It all depends on what I'd like for flavor.
Math-wise advantage gives an average of +3.33 to your roll and disadvantage gives an average of -3.33. I've tested this by just running simulations of over 100,000 rolls. A simple +2 weapon would give you a net greater chance of hitting (by 0.33) while taking a -5 than a normal attack with a normal weapon.
Overall, I'd say GWM if you want to play a heavy weapon character. Based on what you've said, this is what I'd pick.
Shield Master is good if you would rather be more control-focused than damage. I honestly think this is much better for Battlemaster or EK fighters.
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Yeah. The downside of shield master barbarian is that I'm not capitalizing on the advantage on knocking prone, since I can always get advantage via reckless attack. But the other abilities make me even more tanky. That just means I'll be dealing less damage though.
darkwonders, I consider that a feature not a bug. I would say you're not using Reckless Attack as often and keep your AC higher, because you don't have to Reckless Attack when you knock them down.
The trade off is that you'd be doing much less damage with a smaller weapon for a little more survivability. You could doing the GWM thing with a 2d6 or 1d12 weapon.
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