I am currently running a Half-Orc Sword & Board Fighter that i am designing to be a tank and frontline with our Barbarian to absorb damage. Currently have a 21 AC. I am about to go to level 4 and was always planning to take Heavy Armor Master for the strength and the -3. I feel the "effective HP" that you get from the -3 would be great for quite a few levels. My strength is 19 and my Con is 15. So i have started to debate taking +2 abilities to get the extra modifier. Originally i planned to do HAM (lvl 4), Sentinel (lvl 6), them Orcish Fury (lvl 8) for my Feats. But waiting till lvl 8 for the Constitution bump may not be worth it. Whereas taking the bump in Strength AND Constitution would be more beneficial at lvl 4 than just Strength. I feel the boost in CON early would pay off in the long term, where the -3 would fade in the long term. I am also set on taking Sentinel at lvl 6. Curious on peoples experience with HAM too So the question: Would you rather take a greater "effective HP" with the -3 to Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce Damage, or take an extra +1 modifier to CON earlier (as this would give more HP over time)?
Truthfully I don't like Heavy Armor master at higher levels. It's pretty ineffective against the damage you'll be taking. For lower levels though it's pretty handy. I do have a question though, how are you gonna end up with 23-24 ac by 6? Protection fighting style I could see getting you to 21 at most.
KageAcuma isn't talking about monsters with magical attacks. They're saying that 3 damage represents a smaller fraction of the enemy's damage per attack and a smaller portion of your max HP as you level up. Sure, an adult black dragon's bite may not be magical, but it deals an average of 21 damage, while the goblins you were fighting at 1st level dealt an average of 5.
I have a tanky character (a paladin) with the same AC and still find Heavy Armor Master helpful, even at level 8. Unless your DM only throws big monsters at you, that -3 reduction is invaluable against large groups of minions, beasts, fall damage, etc. Have you ever just survived a fight with less than 7 HP? I have, and it's thanks to the feat. As a defensive player, I always prefer to mitigate damage versus just being able to take more. Even with a high AC, you're going to get hit. If you get hit at least 4x a long rest, HAM has prevented more damage than HP you would have gained by level 12.
I think having two odd number stats is more annoying than detrimental (+4 STR and and +2 CON ain't bad) and as a fighter, you have more ASI's than any other class. That said, it sounds like you really want the ASI boost over the feat, so do it! I just felt like defending the feat, haha. Either way, both are great choices and you can't go "wrong".
Actually I think the Feats will help him pretty quickly.
Heavy Weapon Master will give his Strength to boost to 20 at lvl 4, then Orcish Fury will up his Con at 16 at level 6. That leaves you open at 8th for 18 Con or Sentinel.
Thanks for the discussion folks. It definitely helps, although now I’m more undecided :)
AK30 I DO really want the ability boost as it is frustrating to look at. But your argument is the justification I had to not take it and go with the feat. I don’t really think it will matter either way as both are great moves, but it’s a debate I have been having that I don’t see a clear path. So I appreciate the “defense” of the feat to give me a different perspective.
KageAcuma I would hope to get AC 23 by getting full plate and either a ring of protection, +1 shield, or +1 armor. Got a cloak of protection already. I’m already at 21 AC.
I think FullMetalBunny brought up some good points on how you could use your feats to even put your stats, so long as you don't mind waiting a few levels. Really...why can't you have both?
I think FullMetalBunny brought up some good points on how you could use your feats to even put your stats, so long as you don't mind waiting a few levels. Really...why can't you have both?
Yeah that was my original plan. I started to ponder going with the ability boost as i would get my CON up earlier (lvl 4 instead of lvl 8). So I guess another way i can think of it is: Is HAM's -3 dmg better than +1 to CON for an extra 4 levels? Now if i look at it from that question, i think HAM would give longer benefits as i only lose 4 lvls of a +1 as Orcish Fury will give it at Lvl 8. For the build and strategy i have for the party, i can really use Sentinel @ lvl 6.
UPDATE: For anyone that come across this for info: - I ended up taking Heavy Armor Master (instead of the ability). - The character ended up dying into lvl 8. - from lvl 4-7 Heavy Armor Master was AWESOME. There would be battles where i would mitigate 20-30 damage from the -3, and it was incredibly clutch on a few occasions. It was great against archers as arrows typically dont do a ton of damage. - but as battles progressed and definitely when we started fighting harder enemies in lvl 8 that did magical damage, this added feature started to fade in combat as it was only taking affect 25% (or so) of the time. So it worked on traps or environmental damage, but it started to fade in effectiveness (as i expected). - If you want a stronger tank in the lower levels, it is great. But expect it to start losing value in level 6, and it will only degrade from there. Overall i would probably do the same thing if i had to do it all over again.
This is more or less what is expected. I am personally not a fan of feats/features that don't scale or become ineffectual later on, no matter how good it is at lower levels. I have house-ruled HAM to be equal to your proficiency bonus to great effect in the past and I've told my players that future games will allow the damage reduction to apply likewise to magical attacks if you are wearing magical heavy armor.
My questions to the OP would be what kind of game you are in, and are you attempting to min/max or create a well rounded character both in terms of mechanics AND role playing the abilities?
If you game is inevitably going to end up on the 50/50 progression where as you level the enemies you face most of the time will be of comparable level or is it likely that you will face hordes of “minions”
I ask this because Heavy Armour Master is amazing vs hordes of weaker foes mechanically speaking, but it also allows the player to improvise RP around the knowledge and skill and physical power the ability represents
As a tank you need to balance having merely more hit points and having “harder” hit points via resistances and reductions
i would go for the stats, greatthing about fighters they get more ability score increases than any other class so you could get the heavy armor master feat later on
@DM: Because in that campaign we rolled for stats, and i rolled garbage (except for a single 17), i went more optimized for a dumb one trick pony, still had some fun with the RP. We also didnt go up against a ton of minions, more the similar level creatures.
@Keith: if i did it all over again (and we didnt TPK), i would still take HAM early over the Ability, as the "effective" HP will be much higher for the earlier levels. Once you start taking only magical damage, then it becomes less effective, i wouldnt take it at or after the level 8 feats.
Might be worth discussing the matter with your DM so that encounters can be crafted to suit your character and at the same time get the party and the DM of the bell curve mindset.
This will make the world more believable as it populates the areas with a more varied threat level of hostiles and has the added effect of allowing the heroes to shine a bit in a different hue.
Assuming your DM is up for this kind of conversation (and they should be)
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I am currently running a Half-Orc Sword & Board Fighter that i am designing to be a tank and frontline with our Barbarian to absorb damage. Currently have a 21 AC.
I am about to go to level 4 and was always planning to take Heavy Armor Master for the strength and the -3. I feel the "effective HP" that you get from the -3 would be great for quite a few levels.
My strength is 19 and my Con is 15. So i have started to debate taking +2 abilities to get the extra modifier. Originally i planned to do HAM (lvl 4), Sentinel (lvl 6), them Orcish Fury (lvl 8) for my Feats. But waiting till lvl 8 for the Constitution bump may not be worth it. Whereas taking the bump in Strength AND Constitution would be more beneficial at lvl 4 than just Strength. I feel the boost in CON early would pay off in the long term, where the -3 would fade in the long term. I am also set on taking Sentinel at lvl 6. Curious on peoples experience with HAM too
So the question: Would you rather take a greater "effective HP" with the -3 to Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce Damage, or take an extra +1 modifier to CON earlier (as this would give more HP over time)?
I would suggest the attribute bump for STR & CON, I don't see any downside there.
Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
I think Heavy Armor Master is amazing. "Yes" it doesn't effect magical attacks, but a lot of attacks aren't magical.
Yeah, I agree. But would you say that outweighs the extra HP and better saves you get from an earlier boost to con?
that is my debate
I am starting to lean this way. As attribute boosts help everywhere, while the damage is mainly for combat. By level 6 I should be close to AC 23-24.
Truthfully I don't like Heavy Armor master at higher levels. It's pretty ineffective against the damage you'll be taking. For lower levels though it's pretty handy. I do have a question though, how are you gonna end up with 23-24 ac by 6? Protection fighting style I could see getting you to 21 at most.
I would argue that I don't think that's true.
Very few monsters have "magic attacks".
The Hydroloth is unusual in that it's attack state "Magic Weapons. The hydroloth’s weapon attacks are magical."
Most were-monsters, demons, dragons, etc... almost all of their basic attack are not actually magical.
Sadly I can't search for the keyword "magic weapons". Not it doesn't apply to spell or spell effects.
KageAcuma isn't talking about monsters with magical attacks. They're saying that 3 damage represents a smaller fraction of the enemy's damage per attack and a smaller portion of your max HP as you level up. Sure, an adult black dragon's bite may not be magical, but it deals an average of 21 damage, while the goblins you were fighting at 1st level dealt an average of 5.
I have a tanky character (a paladin) with the same AC and still find Heavy Armor Master helpful, even at level 8. Unless your DM only throws big monsters at you, that -3 reduction is invaluable against large groups of minions, beasts, fall damage, etc. Have you ever just survived a fight with less than 7 HP? I have, and it's thanks to the feat. As a defensive player, I always prefer to mitigate damage versus just being able to take more. Even with a high AC, you're going to get hit. If you get hit at least 4x a long rest, HAM has prevented more damage than HP you would have gained by level 12.
I think having two odd number stats is more annoying than detrimental (+4 STR and and +2 CON ain't bad) and as a fighter, you have more ASI's than any other class. That said, it sounds like you really want the ASI boost over the feat, so do it! I just felt like defending the feat, haha. Either way, both are great choices and you can't go "wrong".
Actually I think the Feats will help him pretty quickly.
Heavy Weapon Master will give his Strength to boost to 20 at lvl 4, then Orcish Fury will up his Con at 16 at level 6. That leaves you open at 8th for 18 Con or Sentinel.
Thanks for the discussion folks. It definitely helps, although now I’m more undecided :)
AK30 I DO really want the ability boost as it is frustrating to look at. But your argument is the justification I had to not take it and go with the feat. I don’t really think it will matter either way as both are great moves, but it’s a debate I have been having that I don’t see a clear path. So I appreciate the “defense” of the feat to give me a different perspective.
KageAcuma I would hope to get AC 23 by getting full plate and either a ring of protection, +1 shield, or +1 armor. Got a cloak of protection already. I’m already at 21 AC.
I think FullMetalBunny brought up some good points on how you could use your feats to even put your stats, so long as you don't mind waiting a few levels. Really...why can't you have both?
Yeah that was my original plan. I started to ponder going with the ability boost as i would get my CON up earlier (lvl 4 instead of lvl 8). So I guess another way i can think of it is: Is HAM's -3 dmg better than +1 to CON for an extra 4 levels?
Now if i look at it from that question, i think HAM would give longer benefits as i only lose 4 lvls of a +1 as Orcish Fury will give it at Lvl 8. For the build and strategy i have for the party, i can really use Sentinel @ lvl 6.
UPDATE:
For anyone that come across this for info:
- I ended up taking Heavy Armor Master (instead of the ability).
- The character ended up dying into lvl 8.
- from lvl 4-7 Heavy Armor Master was AWESOME. There would be battles where i would mitigate 20-30 damage from the -3, and it was incredibly clutch on a few occasions. It was great against archers as arrows typically dont do a ton of damage.
- but as battles progressed and definitely when we started fighting harder enemies in lvl 8 that did magical damage, this added feature started to fade in combat as it was only taking affect 25% (or so) of the time. So it worked on traps or environmental damage, but it started to fade in effectiveness (as i expected).
- If you want a stronger tank in the lower levels, it is great. But expect it to start losing value in level 6, and it will only degrade from there. Overall i would probably do the same thing if i had to do it all over again.
This is more or less what is expected. I am personally not a fan of feats/features that don't scale or become ineffectual later on, no matter how good it is at lower levels. I have house-ruled HAM to be equal to your proficiency bonus to great effect in the past and I've told my players that future games will allow the damage reduction to apply likewise to magical attacks if you are wearing magical heavy armor.
My questions to the OP would be what kind of game you are in, and are you attempting to min/max or create a well rounded character both in terms of mechanics AND role playing the abilities?
If you game is inevitably going to end up on the 50/50 progression where as you level the enemies you face most of the time will be of comparable level or is it likely that you will face hordes of “minions”
I ask this because Heavy Armour Master is amazing vs hordes of weaker foes mechanically speaking, but it also allows the player to improvise RP around the knowledge and skill and physical power the ability represents
As a tank you need to balance having merely more hit points and having “harder” hit points via resistances and reductions
i would go for the stats, greatthing about fighters they get more ability score increases than any other class so you could get the heavy armor master feat later on
@DM: Because in that campaign we rolled for stats, and i rolled garbage (except for a single 17), i went more optimized for a dumb one trick pony, still had some fun with the RP.
We also didnt go up against a ton of minions, more the similar level creatures.
@Keith: if i did it all over again (and we didnt TPK), i would still take HAM early over the Ability, as the "effective" HP will be much higher for the earlier levels. Once you start taking only magical damage, then it becomes less effective, i wouldnt take it at or after the level 8 feats.
Might be worth discussing the matter with your DM so that encounters can be crafted to suit your character and at the same time get the party and the DM of the bell curve mindset.
This will make the world more believable as it populates the areas with a more varied threat level of hostiles and has the added effect of allowing the heroes to shine a bit in a different hue.
Assuming your DM is up for this kind of conversation (and they should be)