With a recent campaign of mine setting up an old friend as a potential villain, it has sparked a curious question in my mind...what can stop a Conquest Paladin?
I'm running an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, and I can't help but think that I'm going to be outmatched against the sheer power of a Conquest Paladin...but the appeal of these two warriors of virtue fighting each other is too good to pass up!
I mean, think about it...a Conquest Paladin is all about brutality, domination, and might...yes, to assert order, but this Conquest paladin has defined the "law" as being in accordance to his own whims, and has now taken to lopping off heads of random people for minor infractions (he sort of went mad due to story elements from the last campaign).
My Vengeance Paladin is, in contrast, not very abiding to the law...he smites the wicked, yes, but he's also a bounty hunter who keeps his quarry alive for minor crimes, saving the slaying for the greater evil (as per his Oath...Fight the Greater Evil). In his view, he sees this Conquest Paladin as a warped perversion of what an Oath represents, which is to protect innocent people from murderers...and right now, this Conquest Paladin is stacking up a pretty nasty body count of civilians.
My Vengeance Paladin is dedicated to stopping the slaughter...and I expect this Conquest Paladin to be his ultimate test...not just physically, but morally. I'm actually worried that this Conquest Paladin might convince my Vengeance Paladin that power is all that matters!
But let's say they rumble...how does a Vengeance Paladin beat a Conquest Paladin?
Both are immune to fear...which nullifies many of their skills (Conquest Paladin's tanking ability, Vengeance Paladin's Abjure)...which leaves their other features...Vow of Enmity gives Vengeance Paladin's advantage for a minute...Conquest Paladins get to hit with precision...then Spiritual Weapon gives them another hit...and they get psychic rebuking damage for every hit against them...then an extra attack...then resistance to all damage...ugh...
Vengeance Paladins get Haste, they can fly as their capstone, and they are able to attack many times as reactions to their main target (with Enmity advantage, to boot!)...but as impressive as that is, they are outmatched against the raw power of a Conquest Paladin, I feel. They are relentless pursuers, reactionary scrappers, and terrifying warriors...but unless I'm missing something, a Conquest Paladin can simply do more. I'd have to pull off something creative...
What do you all think? Who'd win in a one-on-one fight: Conquest or Vengeance? How?
maybe your DM will let you ask your deity for help? Possibly? Then, maybe, you can win? But that’s more like something a desperate player pulls, not RAW mechanics.
Here an idea I came up with using an aarokrockra barbarian. Grapple. Fly. Keep the grapple going. Dash. Drop. Fly away. Boom. Dead. A nice........ 1,697 feet should do.
(There is no math behind that whatsoever. Just a random number.)
Here an idea I came up with using an aarokrockra barbarian. Grapple. Fly. Keep the grapple going. Dash. Drop. Fly away. Boom. Dead. A nice........ 1,697 feet should do.
(There is no math behind that whatsoever. Just a random number.)
keeping the grapple going would not be easy to do against a conquest paladin. For starters. you can't grapple with something if you are frightened of it. and your idea here makes no mention of how the Aarokrockra barbarian would resist being frightened. its a good idea though just dropping him off a cliff. but also, fails to be the Paladin vs Paladin idea.
With a recent campaign of mine setting up an old friend as a potential villain, it has sparked a curious question in my mind...what can stop a Conquest Paladin?
I'm running an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, and I can't help but think that I'm going to be outmatched against the sheer power of a Conquest Paladin...but the appeal of these two warriors of virtue fighting each other is too good to pass up!
I mean, think about it...a Conquest Paladin is all about brutality, domination, and might...yes, to assert order, but this Conquest paladin has defined the "law" as being in accordance to his own whims, and has now taken to lopping off heads of random people for minor infractions (he sort of went mad due to story elements from the last campaign).
My Vengeance Paladin is, in contrast, not very abiding to the law...he smites the wicked, yes, but he's also a bounty hunter who keeps his quarry alive for minor crimes, saving the slaying for the greater evil (as per his Oath...Fight the Greater Evil). In his view, he sees this Conquest Paladin as a warped perversion of what an Oath represents, which is to protect innocent people from murderers...and right now, this Conquest Paladin is stacking up a pretty nasty body count of civilians.
My Vengeance Paladin is dedicated to stopping the slaughter...and I expect this Conquest Paladin to be his ultimate test...not just physically, but morally. I'm actually worried that this Conquest Paladin might convince my Vengeance Paladin that power is all that matters!
But let's say they rumble...how does a Vengeance Paladin beat a Conquest Paladin?
Both are immune to fear...which nullifies many of their skills (Conquest Paladin's tanking ability, Vengeance Paladin's Abjure)...which leaves their other features...Vow of Enmity gives Vengeance Paladin's advantage for a minute...Conquest Paladins get to hit with precision...then Spiritual Weapon gives them another hit...and they get psychic rebuking damage for every hit against them...then an extra attack...then resistance to all damage...ugh...
Vengeance Paladins get Haste, they can fly as their capstone, and they are able to attack many times as reactions to their main target (with Enmity advantage, to boot!)...but as impressive as that is, they are outmatched against the raw power of a Conquest Paladin, I feel. They are relentless pursuers, reactionary scrappers, and terrifying warriors...but unless I'm missing something, a Conquest Paladin can simply do more. I'd have to pull off something creative...
What do you all think? Who'd win in a one-on-one fight: Conquest or Vengeance? How?
Discuss!
Aside from the Aarokrockra Barbarian idea....
The vengeance paladin flying and doing this, would be a way to win, given they don't have the chance to be frightened, so they just need to maintain the grapple.
But in most tactically neutral settings, the Conquest paladin will come out on top.
The Soul of Vengeance giving you an attack as a reaction each round when the conquest paladin attacks would "cancel out" the Conquest paladin's extra attack. and advantage for 1 minute, is usually better than hitting with a +10 on one attack.
Basically... it comes down to. Can the Vengeance Paladin hold out vs the resistance of damage. Basically, you have to capitalize on the advantage and dish out 2x as much damage as the conquest paladin does. You have advantage, he does not. spellcasting... not likely to make a huge difference. But the conquest paladin crits on 19s and 20s. and you only on 20s.
Thats the issue to overcome. you have 1 minute to lay on twice as much damage as you take, and then some.
Edit: and Hunter's mark is only a tiny bit of helping for that.
A big thing is going to be what kind of equipment you have by the time of the confrontation. Maybe it is time to seek out some specific magical items that might be able to assist you in directly cancelling out some of the Conquest paladins abilities?
Also don't forget that concentration spells have to be maintained when the person is hit. If you really want to cancel one of their spells on a hit, burn a spell slot and light them up so they can't hang onto their spell. Pretty sure every bonus spell for the Conquest paladin is concentration so keep that in mind, and be disruptive.
Also why would you ever fight toe to toe while the enemy is all avatar powered up, burn time, avoid direct confrontation and wait for it to run out. When his ultimate runs out you go back in and finish the job. Only a fool fights against something with that much advantage, even if you just use the dodge action its better than dealing piddling damage and having a high chance of you getting critical hit. I would advocate using your Avatar form just to evade his, I mean you get to fly and unless he has some magical way to fly as well you can sit back and decide what your next move is in relative safety (expect spells to come your way).
I think it is well within the realm of possibility to win in a one on one fight with a conquest paladin as a vengeance paladin. Without any magical items at all, just using your built in skills.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
A big thing is going to be what kind of equipment you have by the time of the confrontation. Maybe it is time to seek out some specific magical items that might be able to assist you in directly cancelling out some of the Conquest paladins abilities?
Also don't forget that concentration spells have to be maintained when the person is hit. If you really want to cancel one of their spells on a hit, burn a spell slot and light them up so they can't hang onto their spell. Pretty sure every bonus spell for the Conquest paladin is concentration so keep that in mind, and be disruptive.
Also why would you ever fight toe to toe while the enemy is all avatar powered up, burn time, avoid direct confrontation and wait for it to run out. When his ultimate runs out you go back in and finish the job. Only a fool fights against something with that much advantage, even if you just use the dodge action its better than dealing piddling damage and having a high chance of you getting critical hit. I would advocate using your Avatar form just to evade his, I mean you get to fly and unless he has some magical way to fly as well you can sit back and decide what your next move is in relative safety (expect spells to come your way).
I think it is well within the realm of possibility to win in a one on one fight with a conquest paladin as a vengeance paladin. Without any magical items at all, just using your built in skills.
My conquest Paladin typically carries 30-50 Javelins, depending on last stop to town.
Throwing javelins with 19 and 20s both being crits is still effective. And that's not even accounting for maybe the conquest paladin has a Longbow, normal or magic, and arrows.
Theres a lot of factors for the "fly around and let the time limit run out", not even including the metagaming of knowing that the invincible conqueror is activated at all, unless you see your attack seem only half as effective.
My aarokrocra barbarian was just an example. You can do it with anything that can fly, really.
Well, Paladin of Vengeance, he can fly himself using his class abilities, and in that sense. he can do your scenario.
in the example scenario of the non-paladin vs paladin, of the OP's question and exact scenario, your example has people that... within 30 feet of the conquest paladin have to worry about being frightened and such, which would interfere with the grapple/pushing off a cliff. But, for the OP's paladin. a VERY possible scenario and solution. Straight up, you solved his question of how to win the fight, you just did it with a less than perfect answer. (basically, nitpicking).
and I am honestly commending you, because I didn't think of it until you said it.
Vengeance flying with a polearm. 10ft reach means no AoO from conquest. Also, you can smite, he can't. Obviously this changes if he also has a reach weapon.
I agree with the previously stated notion of using your avatar to prompt him to use his. Then evade, and don't use your channel divinity. After a minute, attack him with your channel divinity active. Should definitely be in your favor then.
Grab a boulder, fly up, drop the boulder. Have a stack of boulders nearby and repeat the process.
"seeing the enemy lifting boulders and flying. I use my legs, to walk out of the way of an object that falls straight down. I ready actions to dodge the boulders. etc etc."
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With a recent campaign of mine setting up an old friend as a potential villain, it has sparked a curious question in my mind...what can stop a Conquest Paladin?
I'm running an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, and I can't help but think that I'm going to be outmatched against the sheer power of a Conquest Paladin...but the appeal of these two warriors of virtue fighting each other is too good to pass up!
I mean, think about it...a Conquest Paladin is all about brutality, domination, and might...yes, to assert order, but this Conquest paladin has defined the "law" as being in accordance to his own whims, and has now taken to lopping off heads of random people for minor infractions (he sort of went mad due to story elements from the last campaign).
My Vengeance Paladin is, in contrast, not very abiding to the law...he smites the wicked, yes, but he's also a bounty hunter who keeps his quarry alive for minor crimes, saving the slaying for the greater evil (as per his Oath...Fight the Greater Evil). In his view, he sees this Conquest Paladin as a warped perversion of what an Oath represents, which is to protect innocent people from murderers...and right now, this Conquest Paladin is stacking up a pretty nasty body count of civilians.
My Vengeance Paladin is dedicated to stopping the slaughter...and I expect this Conquest Paladin to be his ultimate test...not just physically, but morally. I'm actually worried that this Conquest Paladin might convince my Vengeance Paladin that power is all that matters!
But let's say they rumble...how does a Vengeance Paladin beat a Conquest Paladin?
Both are immune to fear...which nullifies many of their skills (Conquest Paladin's tanking ability, Vengeance Paladin's Abjure)...which leaves their other features...Vow of Enmity gives Vengeance Paladin's advantage for a minute...Conquest Paladins get to hit with precision...then Spiritual Weapon gives them another hit...and they get psychic rebuking damage for every hit against them...then an extra attack...then resistance to all damage...ugh...
Vengeance Paladins get Haste, they can fly as their capstone, and they are able to attack many times as reactions to their main target (with Enmity advantage, to boot!)...but as impressive as that is, they are outmatched against the raw power of a Conquest Paladin, I feel. They are relentless pursuers, reactionary scrappers, and terrifying warriors...but unless I'm missing something, a Conquest Paladin can simply do more. I'd have to pull off something creative...
What do you all think? Who'd win in a one-on-one fight: Conquest or Vengeance? How?
Discuss!
Conquest. For all the reasons you stated.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Whelp...I'm doomed!
Yep... unless.....
maybe your DM will let you ask your deity for help? Possibly? Then, maybe, you can win? But that’s more like something a desperate player pulls, not RAW mechanics.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
In a rather unusual roleplaying choice, my "deity" (not actually sworn, just respected) is Lliira...Goddess of Love & Lady of Joy.
He justifies his crusade against the greater evil because it protects innocence and joy. Bit of backstory there...
So...Lliira isn't the sort of goddess to intervene, at least not in a violent way.
I've considered using the flight ability to fly upwards and just drop the guy...or use the environment to my advantage. Gotta get creative...
Shove him off a cliff! It works! Can’t prevent it! Use environmental spells or hope he doesn’t have find greater steed, and start attacking him.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Here an idea I came up with using an aarokrockra barbarian. Grapple. Fly. Keep the grapple going. Dash. Drop. Fly away. Boom. Dead. A nice........ 1,697 feet should do.
(There is no math behind that whatsoever. Just a random number.)
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
keeping the grapple going would not be easy to do against a conquest paladin. For starters. you can't grapple with something if you are frightened of it. and your idea here makes no mention of how the Aarokrockra barbarian would resist being frightened. its a good idea though just dropping him off a cliff. but also, fails to be the Paladin vs Paladin idea.
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Aside from the Aarokrockra Barbarian idea....
The vengeance paladin flying and doing this, would be a way to win, given they don't have the chance to be frightened, so they just need to maintain the grapple.
But in most tactically neutral settings, the Conquest paladin will come out on top.
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The Soul of Vengeance giving you an attack as a reaction each round when the conquest paladin attacks would "cancel out" the Conquest paladin's extra attack. and advantage for 1 minute, is usually better than hitting with a +10 on one attack.
Basically... it comes down to. Can the Vengeance Paladin hold out vs the resistance of damage. Basically, you have to capitalize on the advantage and dish out 2x as much damage as the conquest paladin does. You have advantage, he does not. spellcasting... not likely to make a huge difference. But the conquest paladin crits on 19s and 20s. and you only on 20s.
Thats the issue to overcome. you have 1 minute to lay on twice as much damage as you take, and then some.
Edit:
and Hunter's mark is only a tiny bit of helping for that.
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A big thing is going to be what kind of equipment you have by the time of the confrontation. Maybe it is time to seek out some specific magical items that might be able to assist you in directly cancelling out some of the Conquest paladins abilities?
Also don't forget that concentration spells have to be maintained when the person is hit. If you really want to cancel one of their spells on a hit, burn a spell slot and light them up so they can't hang onto their spell. Pretty sure every bonus spell for the Conquest paladin is concentration so keep that in mind, and be disruptive.
Also why would you ever fight toe to toe while the enemy is all avatar powered up, burn time, avoid direct confrontation and wait for it to run out. When his ultimate runs out you go back in and finish the job. Only a fool fights against something with that much advantage, even if you just use the dodge action its better than dealing piddling damage and having a high chance of you getting critical hit. I would advocate using your Avatar form just to evade his, I mean you get to fly and unless he has some magical way to fly as well you can sit back and decide what your next move is in relative safety (expect spells to come your way).
I think it is well within the realm of possibility to win in a one on one fight with a conquest paladin as a vengeance paladin. Without any magical items at all, just using your built in skills.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
My conquest Paladin typically carries 30-50 Javelins, depending on last stop to town.
Throwing javelins with 19 and 20s both being crits is still effective. And that's not even accounting for maybe the conquest paladin has a Longbow, normal or magic, and arrows.
Theres a lot of factors for the "fly around and let the time limit run out", not even including the metagaming of knowing that the invincible conqueror is activated at all, unless you see your attack seem only half as effective.
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Interesting theories...something to bear in mind: both Paladins would be immune to fear at their peak power.
My aarokrocra barbarian was just an example. You can do it with anything that can fly, really.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Well, Paladin of Vengeance, he can fly himself using his class abilities, and in that sense. he can do your scenario.
in the example scenario of the non-paladin vs paladin, of the OP's question and exact scenario, your example has people that... within 30 feet of the conquest paladin have to worry about being frightened and such, which would interfere with the grapple/pushing off a cliff. But, for the OP's paladin. a VERY possible scenario and solution. Straight up, you solved his question of how to win the fight, you just did it with a less than perfect answer. (basically, nitpicking).
and I am honestly commending you, because I didn't think of it until you said it.
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But the conquest might be able to solve with Find Greater Steed, and a gryffyn. One second, researching.
then again, just kill the griffin. Then he falls and you win. Simple.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Dilly dilly
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Vengeance flying with a polearm. 10ft reach means no AoO from conquest. Also, you can smite, he can't. Obviously this changes if he also has a reach weapon.
I agree with the previously stated notion of using your avatar to prompt him to use his. Then evade, and don't use your channel divinity. After a minute, attack him with your channel divinity active. Should definitely be in your favor then.
Grab a boulder, fly up, drop the boulder. Have a stack of boulders nearby and repeat the process.
"seeing the enemy lifting boulders and flying. I use my legs, to walk out of the way of an object that falls straight down. I ready actions to dodge the boulders. etc etc."
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