I can confirm for you that Wizards of the Coast does not own D&D Beyond - that's not how licensing works.
With regards your concern that WotC could "pull the plug" on the site at any time, I would say that you are doing Amazon's contract lawyers a massive disservice.
At any rate, the D&D Beyond team at Curse work closely with the D&D team at WotC, so I cannot see a world where any issues cannot be worked out.
I have a feeling that no matter what proof we could show you, you would stick to your belief that there is some back room deal that WOTC owns part of DDB instead of actually reading that they have partnered with Curse. All that means is that they have given Curse certain rights to use the official logo and to license the the books for sale. But hey, it is a free country (USA at least) so you can believe what you want and since no one is making you use DDB, you can simply move along and happy gaming.
Come on guys - we can surely debate opinions all day, but lets not try debating facts. Being a Twitch subsidiary, we can view the Terms of Service located at the bottom of the page, which brings us to:
7. License
The Twitch Services are owned and operated by Twitch. Unless otherwise indicated, all content, information, and other materials on the Twitch Services (excluding User Content, set out in Section 8 below), including, without limitation, Twitch’s trademarks and logos, the visual interfaces, graphics, design, compilation, information, software, computer code (including source code or object code), services, text, pictures, information, data, sound files, other files and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the “Materials”) are protected by relevant intellectual property and proprietary rights and laws. All Materials contained on the Twitch Services are the property of Twitch or its subsidiaries or affiliated companies and/or third-party licensors.
At the bottom on the D&D Beyond page is the following disclaimer, reflecting upon the "Otherwise Indicated" clause above in regards to Intellectual Property (IP) ownership:
This means that the Intellectual Property remains under WOTC ownership. Obviously, they have licensed this Intellectual Property for usage here, but this does not entail WOTC ownership of Amazon, Twitch, Curse, nor D&D Beyond.
I've been reading this thread and I simply do not understand the fuss. If you do not want to purchase DDb, then don't. The beauty of the marketplace is that if enough people believe there is value then it will make it, if not...it will die or change its policies. I for one, being a new player love this system...
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
Or at least from now on let's do better. But yeah.
@Corpsetaker maybe you mean something by "own" that we don't understand? What do you mean by "own"? Do you mean WotC has bought stock in Curse? Do you mean WotC has contractual obligations over DDB?
@corpsetaker, for someone who says he knows how IP works... you assume that having lend their liscenses to curse that they own a part of it, but thats totally false. once they get the liscence curse can do whatever they want as long as its in the contract base. and wotc has no right to say anything about it at that point. yes wotc makes money out of their liscenses, but it doesn't entitle them to a place around curse board and decisions. curse is literally the only ones who can decide what to ad and what not, if curse wanted they could literally keep wotc out and do whatever they want with this liscense as long as it is in the legal side of things. feel lucky that curse actually wants wotcs help on this matter instead of just buying the liscense and be done with it.
if you dont believe anything i just said.. look at fox and the xmen, look at sony and spiderman, they do whatever the **** they want and keep marvel out of there. now thats the real problem with liscensing... once you get it and if you failed on contracting, you get the boot quite easily and lose your product as fast as signing something. think about it, how can so many movies about comic books and games or tv shows gets stupid just because the author got removed from the project entirely ? Look at dragonball Evolution... how the hell could akira toriyama get booted fromt he project if he was entitled and owned a part of the company because he gave a liscense ? yet he lost everything with that movie because he was entirely removed from it. if you own a part of the company that wouldn't happen as long as he wouldn't sell the part he has. thats not how liscensing works at all.
right now, curse has an arrangement with wotc, they bought a liscense a liscense wotc was willing to give them on a contract, contract with limits you don't even know about. so why talk about something you don't even know about ? we don't know whats in that contract, we don't even know what that liscense actually gives them. so why bother making assumptions about what they can and cannot do. i for one know that if curse do not want to give out free books, there is a ******* reason to it, its not something they decided for the heck of it. the only assumption you can do is that they don't do it for a reason, reason of which they are not forced to divuldge to you. because they do not owe you anything !
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
I wonder what those types of people think about me, someone who pre-ordered XGTE on BOTH digitally on DDB and from physically from Amazon.
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
I wonder what those types of people think about me, someone who pre-ordered XGTE on BOTH digitally on DDB and from physically from Amazon.
Honestly, they are not worth my time to care what they think as going forward, I will be doing the same. I love my bookshelf collection and having the ease of digital. I feel they just think they are entitled to something which they are not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
I wonder what those types of people think about me, someone who pre-ordered XGTE on BOTH digitally on DDB and from physically from Amazon.
I am one of those entitled people. Thanks for asking. Although I am glad you are willing to support the game and keep it alive for the rest of us, to me you are part of the problem not the solution, hindering progress.
Although I am glad you are willing to support the game and keep it alive for the rest of us, to me you are part of the problem not the solution, hindering progress.
If buying at the currently asked prices is required in order to keep the game "alive for the rest of us", wouldn't that mean that the progress you speak of that is being hindered is progress towards the game no longer being "alive"?
Buying a paperback copy of 'Lord of the Rings' in 1999, did not entitle one to a free DVD or even movie ticket in 2001.
You purchased the book knowing that it was solely a book. If you dropped it in a puddle, you couldn't even get the same paperback replaced from the store you purchased it at.
--
Fast forward, individuals are buying physical books from Retailer A, then expecting complimentary license additions from Retailer B. If there is a process adjustment that needs to be changed, these need to be taken up with the manufacturer (publisher, in this case) not the retailer.
Walking into McDonald's to get a refill on the cup you purchased at Burger King doesn't fly much either, last I've been told.
Buying a product does not entitle you to a discount on future purchases of the same product. I buy a book from Barnes & Noble, but that doesn’t mean I have a right to go back into Barnes & Noble and buy the exact same version of the book for a discount just because I already own a copy. Also, if I purchase an electronic copy of a novel for my Kindle, I don’t earn a discount on it because I already own the physical version.
I think the issue is that some companies are giving away digital copies when you purchase it directly from them either on their company web store or through a Bits and Mortar program.
Companies have no obligation to provide a discount to us just because we purchased something from them before, even if it’s the same item. WotC is perfectly within their rights to charge full price for each copy they sell. In this case, they aren’t. They discount the online version through D&D Beyond (by Twitch). It’s not the full physical pricing at all. $30.00 ($19.99 for compendium only) for the Rulebook in a completely different format (non-PDFs) is acceptable.
If you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy it. If you want it, pony up the dough. That’s really what this is about. You don’t deserve anything you didn’t pay for, but you feel entitled to it.
If there is a process adjustment that needs to be changed, these need to be taken up with the manufacturer (publisher, in this case) not the retailer.
By maufacturer/publisher you mean WotC? Wizards RPG Team? If there is a better place for my voice to reach WotC I'd be glad to take the reference. This is all I found.
I'm sorry if you feel Curse/DDB is taking the brunt of my displeasure. I'm sure you guys have done the best you can given the licensing deals you were able to make. You have also managed to make some really great tools and have more cool stuff coming down.
Although I am glad you are willing to support the game and keep it alive for the rest of us, to me you are part of the problem not the solution, hindering progress.
If buying at the currently asked prices is required in order to keep the game "alive for the rest of us", wouldn't that mean that the progress you speak of that is being hindered is progress towards the game no longer being "alive"?
That's the risk. The progress I'm hoping for is a larger & happier user base, a bigger and more connected community not divided by platforms.
If there is a process adjustment that needs to be changed, these need to be taken up with the manufacturer (publisher, in this case) not the retailer.
By maufacturer/publisher you mean WotC? Wizards RPG Team? If there is a better place for my voice to reach WotC I'd be glad to take the reference. This is all I found.
I'm sorry if you feel Curse/DDB is taking the brunt of my displeasure. I'm sure you guys have done the best you can given the licensing deals you were able to make. You have also managed to make some really great tools and have more cool stuff coming down.
Yes, WotC would be responsible for implementing any changes in book inclusion of coupons, licensing arrangements, or physical book promotion, as they own the IP and control these aspects. Believe me when I say that the staff are very aware of current issues and have fought for the community when able. You wouldn't believe the things we currently have that weren't originally available on the table.
As for resources to help get your voice heard, I would try the WOTC support page or even their sources of community interaction where you could host these discussions with other players as well. It's not that these discussions shouldn't be hosted here on D&D Beyond, or that we even frown upon them from occurring, but there is a lot of contempt pointing at the site, when it's only a retailer - bound by contracts and licenses. We simply aren't WOTC, if that makes sense. It would be akin to the local game store being licensed to sell PDFs - they're billed per PDF sold; how can they give them away as traceable inventory without incurring the debt?
Buying a product does not entitle you to a discount on future purchases of the same product. I buy a book from Barnes & Noble, but that doesn’t mean I have a right to go back into Barnes & Noble and buy the exact same version of the book for a discount just because I already own a copy. Also, if I purchase an electronic copy of a novel for my Kindle, I don’t earn a discount on it because I already own the physical version.
I think the issue is that some companies are giving away digital copies when you purchase it directly from them either on their company web store or through a Bits and Mortar program.
Companies have no obligation to provide a discount to us just because we purchased something from them before, even if it’s the same item. WotC is perfectly within their rights to charge full price for each copy they sell. In this case, they aren’t. They discount the online version through D&D Beyond (by Twitch). It’s not the full physical pricing at all. $30.00 ($19.99 for compendium only) for the Rulebook in a completely different format (non-PDFs) is acceptable.
If you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy it. If you want it, pony up the dough. That’s really what this is about. You don’t deserve anything you didn’t pay for, but you feel entitled to it.
After all that's been said in the thread and all the progress that's been made, this feels like the beginning of a new cycle in the same argument.
Yes there are many other examples in the market where you have to repurchase the content. If you think that's a reason to not strive for something better for D&D users, WotC and everyone between, fine. Also yes what you said about obligations and rights (WotC's and consumers'). I'm not saying anyone has to do anything. No one is getting illegally robbed. I'm saying I can imagine things being better for everyone.
Focusing on this
You don’t deserve anything you didn’t pay for, but you feel entitled to it.
I thought I made it clear I'm not claiming entitlement to anything I haven't paid for. If I haven't, I'm not. Please stop accusing me of this or please explain in more detail how I am, but before you do please make sure you understand what I'm proposing.
I think the best place for this discussion to end is to admit that there could be a better way, but disagree that it is realistic or even worth talking about.
I can confirm for you that Wizards of the Coast does not own D&D Beyond - that's not how licensing works.
With regards your concern that WotC could "pull the plug" on the site at any time, I would say that you are doing Amazon's contract lawyers a massive disservice.
At any rate, the D&D Beyond team at Curse work closely with the D&D team at WotC, so I cannot see a world where any issues cannot be worked out.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I have a feeling that no matter what proof we could show you, you would stick to your belief that there is some back room deal that WOTC owns part of DDB instead of actually reading that they have partnered with Curse. All that means is that they have given Curse certain rights to use the official logo and to license the the books for sale. But hey, it is a free country (USA at least) so you can believe what you want and since no one is making you use DDB, you can simply move along and happy gaming.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Come on guys - we can surely debate opinions all day, but lets not try debating facts. Being a Twitch subsidiary, we can view the Terms of Service located at the bottom of the page, which brings us to:
At the bottom on the D&D Beyond page is the following disclaimer, reflecting upon the "Otherwise Indicated" clause above in regards to Intellectual Property (IP) ownership:
This means that the Intellectual Property remains under WOTC ownership. Obviously, they have licensed this Intellectual Property for usage here, but this does not entail WOTC ownership of Amazon, Twitch, Curse, nor D&D Beyond.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
The license it their own IP to Curse, that does not mean they "own" a piece of it.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I've been reading this thread and I simply do not understand the fuss. If you do not want to purchase DDb, then don't. The beauty of the marketplace is that if enough people believe there is value then it will make it, if not...it will die or change its policies. I for one, being a new player love this system...
teak
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
I bought a physical book that had no promise or hint or obligation of a digital version, but now that there is one from an independent company i want it for discount price or free. That is the bases of the fuss.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
@corpsetaker, for someone who says he knows how IP works... you assume that having lend their liscenses to curse that they own a part of it, but thats totally false. once they get the liscence curse can do whatever they want as long as its in the contract base. and wotc has no right to say anything about it at that point. yes wotc makes money out of their liscenses, but it doesn't entitle them to a place around curse board and decisions. curse is literally the only ones who can decide what to ad and what not, if curse wanted they could literally keep wotc out and do whatever they want with this liscense as long as it is in the legal side of things. feel lucky that curse actually wants wotcs help on this matter instead of just buying the liscense and be done with it.
if you dont believe anything i just said.. look at fox and the xmen, look at sony and spiderman, they do whatever the **** they want and keep marvel out of there. now thats the real problem with liscensing... once you get it and if you failed on contracting, you get the boot quite easily and lose your product as fast as signing something. think about it, how can so many movies about comic books and games or tv shows gets stupid just because the author got removed from the project entirely ? Look at dragonball Evolution... how the hell could akira toriyama get booted fromt he project if he was entitled and owned a part of the company because he gave a liscense ? yet he lost everything with that movie because he was entirely removed from it. if you own a part of the company that wouldn't happen as long as he wouldn't sell the part he has. thats not how liscensing works at all.
right now, curse has an arrangement with wotc, they bought a liscense a liscense wotc was willing to give them on a contract, contract with limits you don't even know about. so why talk about something you don't even know about ? we don't know whats in that contract, we don't even know what that liscense actually gives them. so why bother making assumptions about what they can and cannot do. i for one know that if curse do not want to give out free books, there is a ******* reason to it, its not something they decided for the heck of it. the only assumption you can do is that they don't do it for a reason, reason of which they are not forced to divuldge to you. because they do not owe you anything !
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Buying a paperback copy of 'Lord of the Rings' in 1999, did not entitle one to a free DVD or even movie ticket in 2001.
You purchased the book knowing that it was solely a book. If you dropped it in a puddle, you couldn't even get the same paperback replaced from the store you purchased it at.
--
Fast forward, individuals are buying physical books from Retailer A, then expecting complimentary license additions from Retailer B. If there is a process adjustment that needs to be changed, these need to be taken up with the manufacturer (publisher, in this case) not the retailer.
Walking into McDonald's to get a refill on the cup you purchased at Burger King doesn't fly much either, last I've been told.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
Buying a product does not entitle you to a discount on future purchases of the same product. I buy a book from Barnes & Noble, but that doesn’t mean I have a right to go back into Barnes & Noble and buy the exact same version of the book for a discount just because I already own a copy. Also, if I purchase an electronic copy of a novel for my Kindle, I don’t earn a discount on it because I already own the physical version.
I think the issue is that some companies are giving away digital copies when you purchase it directly from them either on their company web store or through a Bits and Mortar program.
Companies have no obligation to provide a discount to us just because we purchased something from them before, even if it’s the same item. WotC is perfectly within their rights to charge full price for each copy they sell. In this case, they aren’t. They discount the online version through D&D Beyond (by Twitch). It’s not the full physical pricing at all. $30.00 ($19.99 for compendium only) for the Rulebook in a completely different format (non-PDFs) is acceptable.
If you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy it. If you want it, pony up the dough. That’s really what this is about. You don’t deserve anything you didn’t pay for, but you feel entitled to it.
[ Site Rules & Guidelines ] --- [ Homebrew Rules & Guidelines ]
Send me a message with any questions or concerns
I thought I made it clear I'm not claiming entitlement to anything I haven't paid for. If I haven't, I'm not. Please stop accusing me of this or please explain in more detail how I am, but before you do please make sure you understand what I'm proposing.
I think the best place for this discussion to end is to admit that there could be a better way, but disagree that it is realistic or even worth talking about.
So when you said you were one of those entitled people, that was sarcasm. Okay. I spoke my peace. No need to push my point of view any further.