Kreakdude, the reason why it got likes is because it's funny and pretty much sums up this argument that getting something from one place doesn't and shouldn't entitle you to any discount if you later decide to get it again from somewhere else. Yet, you seem to think you should and even though D&D Beyond actually does discount it by over 50% you're saying it should be more and even (very confusingly) say the value of the product is negative which is like saying you expect it free. But you contradict this with saying you understand capitalism and agree D&D Beyond should still benefit for the business venture.
And yet when asked what price you think it should be you constantly avoid answering this. Do you agree that D&D Beyond should be compensated for taking the time, effort and money to provide this digital platform to you with the option of providing you with a digital version of the book that is much easier to read and navigate with ability to download to a smartphone or similar device for offline reading later? Bearing in mind that they also have to pay for the license every time. So, surely it would be unreasonable to expect them to do all of this at a loss, right? So, if the $19.99 is too much for you for all of this, what is more reasonable - remembering that this price has an incredibly small profit margin and any signficant further discount would actually result in a loss... What makes a worthy price for you?
Am I the only one that hit this statement and did a double take? How is the value "negative" if you are a) looking for a thing and b) getting that thing? That makes me think you are using a definition of the word "value", or perhaps "negative" with which I am entirely unfamiliar.
I can see how if you nit-pick this out of context it might throw you off from the point. The traffic the user gives to the digital content provider is valuable, not just the other way around. It's flipped, like a negative number is a flipped version of the positive.
I understand business. I bet DDB negotiated for the lowest price possible on the PHB compendium. It's their privilege to post that content and attract many users to their site where they can then try to sell them on the value of having content available to use with their Character Builder. User acquisition, retention, virality, revenue. I think it is you who does not understand. Remember when Bing was literally paying people cash to use their free search engine? Remember how Venmo pays you literal cash $5.00 to invite a friend?
Venmo is owned by Paypal a big company and earns money through the fees it charges so a few bucks for a multi-step limited uses recommend a friend scheme is more than affordable since the average user is chump change and it more heavily targets businesses who will be making a lot of transactions and generating fees on them. They literally gain up to 25% of some transactions some of which can be worth dozens of thousands of dollars each time from a single business. So, this is not a comparable example.
Bing is owned by Microsoft and like many search engines has sponsored search results to offer key search terms at premium for businesses to try and earn higher search result ranking. Add that Microsoft is an extremely big company and shelling some coin to help boost popularity is pocket change to them.
Although Curse may be owned by Twitch and then owned by Amazon this chain doesn't make Curse or D&D Beyond super flexible, they proceed with their product largely independently. They probably do get some support through the chain but nothing like the flexible-money schemes capable by companies like Venmo and Bing. In short, they do not have the immense amounts of play-money. They turn a tidy profit, but not enough to give things away for free for everyone.
I don't think the ads earn as much as you think they do. Especially in the age where free ad-blockers are a-plenty. I never saw a single ad on this site and have a Master Tier now anyway for the features it offers and I make a lot of use from. This site has never earned a single cent from me through ads. D&D Beyond is relatively small and new and profits from ads are marginal and not enough to warrant giving you licensed content for free.
The profits come from people buying the products offered. So, let's review how bad those prices are by taking a look at what is probably the most commonly purchased: the PHB.
The whole book is $29.99. This is a considerably less than the common market price elsewhere often more than $50. Only after a digital version of the book, no interest in the character sheet and search tools? Get the compendium only version for $19.99. Don't care about the digital book because you already have a physical copy and just want the stuff for character sheets? Get the bundles for a total of: $25.95
Seem like fair prices to me. But you're different. You want it for less. How about this: you have the book, right? So, why not just replicate the things you want to use through the homebrew system for free!
This is the third time pointing out this little facet you keep ignoring: you can, if want, homebrew the stuff you already have in your physical books and get to use them for your character sheet for FREE. Please don't say you have a problem with using things FREE as that would be just woeful. It would be inconvenient, sure, but if you're not willing to pay for them to have already done that work for you, then you get what you pay for.
Even putting Bing and Venmo examples aside, my arguments for digital content delivery value stands at "you're welcome".
You guys keep framing this issue the exact same way expecting a different result. The rest of what you posted has been countered several times already yet you have still completely ignored the core issue for me back at this post. I actually don't even own the PHB physical copy. For me it was a similar situation with Phandelver.
What point would you like me to not ignore? Would you please be more precise?
I let myself be led away from my core issue before and surprise we ended up in the exact same place as we always end up. Maybe no one will follow me that way because they are afraid it might make sense.
With all due respect Kreakdude, your tone is now becoming increasingly insulting. Implying that your logic makes more sense than ours is a direct jab at our intelligence. You also dismissed a reply as being the "lowest form of humor", which is not a civil way to carry on a discussion and also insinuates a lack of intelligence on their part. I only bring this up because of how quick you are to take offense to that kind of tone when it is directed at you. I admitted when my frustrations got the best of me, and I urge you to now be more considerate in your replies.
You are one person with one perspective, which you are absolutely entitled to have. But you are arguing against several people who all understand each other and have a shared perspective (a perspective also shared with the Curse staff and the thousands of other paying customers). Conventional wisdom would say that in most cases, it is the most commonly shared perspective that makes the most sense. Other people have come in to complain about the cost, but that has seemed to have tapered off to a considerable degree. Either those people decided that this product did not offer what they wanted at a price they were willing to pay and moved on to focus on their games as they have always played them, or as I've seen in a few cases, their perspective was changed once they actually examined the product. You have clearly spent a lot of time here, so your understanding of the product is not in question. But your continued tenacity and insistence that you are objectively right, and moreso that we are objectively wrong, is what I think is so frustrating to many of us about this discussion.
You have an opinion about how you feel like this product should be distributed, and it is a valid opinion. I don't happen to share that opinion, but I won't say you are dumb for having your own view. It is not that we don't understand your view, it's that we don't understand how you can't see this situation from alternate perspectives after it has been explained over and over again by a number of different people over the course of several months. That was why I thought this might all be trolling, as trolls tend to thrive on pushing buttons. I don't think that is the case now, but I'm explaining where my earlier thoughts were coming from.
I'm not telling you to "get lost" or anything. Quite the contrary, as I think D&D should be for everyone, and I welcome any discussion about it in between games I can get. I also don't have the authority. But I do wonder what you are still hoping to accomplish by spending time on this discussion. It has to be apparent that your views are the minority and that Curse has no plans of adopting your proposed pay model. You've thoroughly made your case, and the Curse staff has certainly seen it. It does kind of seem like it's arguing for argument's sake at this point. I hope not, but I don't see this discussion moving forward any more without some new perspectives, even if it remains entirely civil.
I'll admit the sarcasm made me mad. Sorry for my increasingly insulting tone.
See you paint this picture too like I'm the minority and the "few" people who share my view get merged into this thread are fixed by your guys' shark attacks. I doubt that. I think there are many who have my voice but you all just scare them away and I'm the only one willing to stand up to the bullies. That's the picture as I see it.
I think you and I have arrived at a good spot where we aren't trying to debunk each others' points of views. Unfortunately just as I arrive at a good spot with one of you several others take your place like the heads of hydra. Then someone with whom I'd thought we arrived at a decent spot comes back with a vengeance.
Here it is. DDB internally has a content purchased registry used to provide discounts on purchases with overlapping content and they are reportedly (by many people here) doing successful business. Also, I find that business model to inspire confidence in my purchases. And so I think it should be applied across the whole 5e product, not just DDB. I don't know why that inspires such need in people to debunk or correct me somehow?
I'll admit the sarcasm made me mad. Sorry for my increasingly insulting tone.
See you paint this picture too like I'm the minority and the "few" people who share my view get merged into this thread are fixed by your guys' shark attacks. I doubt that. I think there are many who have my voice but you all just scare them away and I'm the only one willing to stand up to the bullies. That's the picture as I see it.
I think you and I have arrived at a good spot where we aren't trying to debunk each others' points of views. Unfortunately just as I arrive at a good spot with one of you several others take your place like the heads of hydra. Then someone with whom I'd thought we arrived at a decent spot comes back with a vengeance.
Here it is. DDB internally has a content purchased registry used to provide discounts on purchases with overlapping content and they are reportedly (by many people here) doing successful business. Also, I find that business model to inspire confidence in my purchases. And so I think it should be applied across the whole 5e product, not just DDB. I don't know why that inspires such need in people to debunk or correct me somehow?
Because, with all due respect, your understand and view is somewhat incomplete.
Curse has rights over the digital version of the content produced by WotC, and they have control over it, within the baundaries and limitations imposed by their deal with WotC.
What they do not have any control over is the physical side of things, managed by WotC and its distrubutors exclusively.
What "we" fail to "get over" is the claim that since someone has purchased the physical copy at some point until now, that they should be given access to the digital version here, either at a further discount or directly for free.
Applying something similar to future releases/new releases of the books? Sure, that would be in the realm of possibilities, but only if WotC is interested in something like that, as they are the strong party in any deal concerning 5e, being the owners of the IP and all rights associated.
You made your point, clear or not, and I want to believe you understand it is inapplicable right now for physical purchases done until WotC decided to change their model, so, please, understand that most of the comments here come from the perspective of people replying to the "demand" for free/further discounted content due to past physical purchases (I believe at least).
My understanding wasn't lacking anything you said, but yes my view does leave those things out intentionally. I don't think it's my incentive as a consumer to accept excuses. Those excuses do nothing to appease my lack of confidence.
What "we" fail to "get over" is the claim that since someone has purchased the physical copy at some point until now, that they should be given access to the digital version here, either at a further discount or directly for free.
This is not crucial to my viewpoint. The crucial part is, like you said, it could apply to the future. In principle it could be applied to the past too, but past is past and I don't think it'd be a big deal if WotC held past deals as they were when they were made. Lack of foresight is forgivable.
Hopefully, if you're speaking for many people, this resolves the need for people to continue to gang up on me.
I think there are many who have my voice but you all just scare them away and I'm the only one willing to stand up to the bullies. That's the picture as I see it.
I'm sure there are many, but purchase history, statistics, and community feedback have overwhelmingly been positive for D&D Beyond. Frankly, the majority have expressed enjoyment and pleasure at what D&D Beyond is offering, hence there have been no plans to change the pricing model. Effectively, the market has so far voted with their wallets, and they have voted that we've got a great thing going here.
Again - I can understand the displeasure some may have, but the business model is not likely to change. Enjoy what is being offered, or search for more pleasurable pastures would be my thought.
To me I hear that the content purchased validation business model is successful for DDB, but it wouldn't be successful for the whole 5e product even in a hypothetical future scenario where it could be implemented without the current barriers. Arguments that make sense to me are ones like "it'd be too hard" or "it'd be unlikely". But arguments like "the whole idea is flawed" or "you're the minority, people don't want that" seem hypocritical when DDB itself is implementing it* and DDB's users are enjoying it*. Do you see my confusion?
EDIT: the * refer to content purchased validation discounting overlapping content
I know some gaming stores and game publishers are involved with the "Bits and Morter" the only way I could see that working here would be doing a book purchase through amazon as they are the big bosses of beyond. But I would not understand all the legalities and such that would be required to actually work so everyone got the right amount of funds for each product.
I can see how if you nit-pick this out of context it might throw you off from the point. The traffic the user gives to the digital content provider is valuable, not just the other way around. It's flipped, like a negative number is a flipped version of the positive.
I don't believe that I've picked any nits, nor taken anything you said out of the context you said it in.
Yes, user traffic provides advertisement revenue... but I don't think it provides so much revenue as to wholly subsidize the costs that go into providing the content and the tools that use/work with that content, at least not when paying licensing fees and giving employees livable wages.
Can you provide any evidence that supports the idea that ad revenue alone provides a large enough stream of funding for a legitimately licensed company to actually prosper on?
Quote from "Kreakdude" »
I think it is you who does not understand. Remember when Bing was literally paying people cash to use their free search engine? Remember how Venmo pays you literal cash $5.00 to invite a friend?
First, that's incredibly insulting of you to claim. We are equals and you will treat me as such, as I have and will continue to treat you.
Secondly, I think that those endeavors you are speaking of are endeavors along the same lines as deliberately under-cutting the price of an introductory product in hopes that it will generate enough interest in other products to end up covering the money literally lost by setting the price too low, or those of a fast-food restaurant like Wendy's (an example I'll use because I am intimately familiar with the details) selling a particular menu item - the double stack - at a lower price than it costs to make (this being back when it was $0.99) because that brings people in the doors and they get a few negative-profit-margin sandwiches but the company pulls a profit because they also buy a high-profit-margin item (like a soda from the fountain). Eventually, the company has to stop doing the intentionally losing money thing or fail as a business. And this method of business is one that takes very high risk hoping for, but having nothing even kind of resembling a guarantee of, high rewards.
In Vegas, I got into a long argument with the man at the roulette wheel over what I considered to be an odd number. - Steven Wright
Both sides are arguing a point that I think was lost a while ago. Sedge said it best, "I can understand the displeasure some may have, but the business model is not likely to change. Enjoy what is being offered, or search for more pleasurable pastures would be my thought."
At some point, you either have to accept what D&D Beyond is, or go license your own project with WoTC. DNDB are a business at the end of the day, and they are going to follow the projects that return a profit. Sure, someone could give all this away for free, but until Richard Branson steps up, the rest of us will have to fund a business that has to pay for employees, web servers, and licensing costs. But I'm now lost as to how any of this has to do with the D&D Beyond vs Physical Books. And for the record, IMHO D&D Beyond is WAY better than physical books.
Yep, I agree. This dead horse is pulp by now. You can't debate an opinion and it doesn't look like any minds are going to change here so move on with your lives people. DDB is way better than physical books especially for DM's.
1: Digital map that a DM can project onto a playing table
2: Play with a computer open to DDB you can have multiple pages open to rules, spells, monsters, magic items, etc.
3: The content is searchable for quick access.
4: Module pictures that a DM can project onto a table.
I respectfully disagree with the tone of the last two posts.
Anyone not interested in continuing this thread is free to turn off the notifications for it.
I do agree the topic seems to have reached a stale point, but that is, IMHO, no reason to silence anyone. Also because I am 100% sure, as it already happened, if this one gets closed another 30 topics on the same matter will be opened.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is free to reply as they see fit (in the boundaries of civility and respect), but as much as I respect BrassZeus' and Barazinbar's opinions, I do not think asking people to "move on with your life", or asking sarcastic questions on the behavior of those still discussing this is the best way to go.
Again, if you are not interested in this discussion, no one forces you to follow it.
Disclaimer: I do agree with both of you when you say DDB is on average way better than physical book, and probably right because of this we have this discussion going on as long as it did.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I think there are many who have my voice but you all just scare them away and I'm the only one willing to stand up to the bullies. That's the picture as I see it.
I'm sure there are many, but purchase history, statistics, and community feedback have overwhelmingly been positive for D&D Beyond. Frankly, the majority have expressed enjoyment and pleasure at what D&D Beyond is offering, hence there have been no plans to change the pricing model. Effectively, the market has so far voted with their wallets, and they have voted that we've got a great thing going here.
Again - I can understand the displeasure some may have, but the business model is not likely to change. Enjoy what is being offered, or search for more pleasurable pastures would be my thought.
No offence, but the comment comes across as implying the majority as a whole, which is kind of not quite accurate.
The majority of those that bought the product or see a use for it are likely happy with it (as they would stick around and use the service/forums because of the investment). I would figure that many of those that have no interest or are unhappy with the pricing model have just moved on and don't frequent the forums/service. I would also imagine it would be quite hard to say what quantity of the overall D&D customer base that is without the wizard's market data.
While I'd surmise there is also a group keeping tabs on D&D Beyond seeing the potential it could be useful to them later, but currently isn't.
The majority of D&D players I know don't use D&D beyond, being happy with their books, don't like digital mediums at the table, or simply are not interested in buying in a second time (and/or prefer supporting their FLGS).
It is great to hear D&D Beyond is doing well though.
I just bought in to D&D Beyond to run a (new DM!) Curse of Strahd campaign with my family. I have all the books, but wanted a way to display the maps, and a way to reference multiple monsters easily. I tried Fantasy Grounds (and the program is interesting, or would be if it didn't crash every time I tried to use the map masking tool), but it seems like more work than necessary just to run an in-person game. We (and as Dm, especially I) found D&DB to be quite useful.
While it probably will still end up being necessary to print the maps, the electronic source book maps are an excellent way to get the map FOR printing. The ability to pull up multiple tabs of monsters and cross-reference tags is very nice.
Overall, I am quite pleased with the service so far, and while it would be nice to see a discount related to ownership of the print books (or electronic+print bundles), I was also able to use a discount code for 25% off, so I consider that fair enough for having the print books already.
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Kreakdude, the reason why it got likes is because it's funny and pretty much sums up this argument that getting something from one place doesn't and shouldn't entitle you to any discount if you later decide to get it again from somewhere else. Yet, you seem to think you should and even though D&D Beyond actually does discount it by over 50% you're saying it should be more and even (very confusingly) say the value of the product is negative which is like saying you expect it free. But you contradict this with saying you understand capitalism and agree D&D Beyond should still benefit for the business venture.
And yet when asked what price you think it should be you constantly avoid answering this. Do you agree that D&D Beyond should be compensated for taking the time, effort and money to provide this digital platform to you with the option of providing you with a digital version of the book that is much easier to read and navigate with ability to download to a smartphone or similar device for offline reading later? Bearing in mind that they also have to pay for the license every time. So, surely it would be unreasonable to expect them to do all of this at a loss, right? So, if the $19.99 is too much for you for all of this, what is more reasonable - remembering that this price has an incredibly small profit margin and any signficant further discount would actually result in a loss... What makes a worthy price for you?
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
Sarcasm, the lowest form of humor. Resorting to this kind of post I'll take it as a compliment that I've made a good argument.
I can see how if you nit-pick this out of context it might throw you off from the point. The traffic the user gives to the digital content provider is valuable, not just the other way around. It's flipped, like a negative number is a flipped version of the positive.
I understand business. I bet DDB negotiated for the lowest price possible on the PHB compendium. It's their privilege to post that content and attract many users to their site where they can then try to sell them on the value of having content available to use with their Character Builder. User acquisition, retention, virality, revenue. I think it is you who does not understand. Remember when Bing was literally paying people cash to use their free search engine? Remember how Venmo pays you literal cash $5.00 to invite a friend?
Venmo is owned by Paypal a big company and earns money through the fees it charges so a few bucks for a multi-step limited uses recommend a friend scheme is more than affordable since the average user is chump change and it more heavily targets businesses who will be making a lot of transactions and generating fees on them. They literally gain up to 25% of some transactions some of which can be worth dozens of thousands of dollars each time from a single business. So, this is not a comparable example.
Bing is owned by Microsoft and like many search engines has sponsored search results to offer key search terms at premium for businesses to try and earn higher search result ranking. Add that Microsoft is an extremely big company and shelling some coin to help boost popularity is pocket change to them.
Although Curse may be owned by Twitch and then owned by Amazon this chain doesn't make Curse or D&D Beyond super flexible, they proceed with their product largely independently. They probably do get some support through the chain but nothing like the flexible-money schemes capable by companies like Venmo and Bing. In short, they do not have the immense amounts of play-money. They turn a tidy profit, but not enough to give things away for free for everyone.
I don't think the ads earn as much as you think they do. Especially in the age where free ad-blockers are a-plenty. I never saw a single ad on this site and have a Master Tier now anyway for the features it offers and I make a lot of use from. This site has never earned a single cent from me through ads. D&D Beyond is relatively small and new and profits from ads are marginal and not enough to warrant giving you licensed content for free.
The profits come from people buying the products offered. So, let's review how bad those prices are by taking a look at what is probably the most commonly purchased: the PHB.
The whole book is $29.99. This is a considerably less than the common market price elsewhere often more than $50.
Only after a digital version of the book, no interest in the character sheet and search tools? Get the compendium only version for $19.99.
Don't care about the digital book because you already have a physical copy and just want the stuff for character sheets? Get the bundles for a total of: $25.95
Seem like fair prices to me. But you're different. You want it for less. How about this: you have the book, right? So, why not just replicate the things you want to use through the homebrew system for free!
This is the third time pointing out this little facet you keep ignoring: you can, if want, homebrew the stuff you already have in your physical books and get to use them for your character sheet for FREE. Please don't say you have a problem with using things FREE as that would be just woeful. It would be inconvenient, sure, but if you're not willing to pay for them to have already done that work for you, then you get what you pay for.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
Even putting Bing and Venmo examples aside, my arguments for digital content delivery value stands at "you're welcome".
You guys keep framing this issue the exact same way expecting a different result. The rest of what you posted has been countered several times already yet you have still completely ignored the core issue for me back at this post. I actually don't even own the PHB physical copy. For me it was a similar situation with Phandelver.
You complain about me ignoring your "core" issue while also ignoring a point raised by me thrice. Interesting.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
What point would you like me to not ignore? Would you please be more precise?
I let myself be led away from my core issue before and surprise we ended up in the exact same place as we always end up. Maybe no one will follow me that way because they are afraid it might make sense.
With all due respect Kreakdude, your tone is now becoming increasingly insulting. Implying that your logic makes more sense than ours is a direct jab at our intelligence. You also dismissed a reply as being the "lowest form of humor", which is not a civil way to carry on a discussion and also insinuates a lack of intelligence on their part. I only bring this up because of how quick you are to take offense to that kind of tone when it is directed at you. I admitted when my frustrations got the best of me, and I urge you to now be more considerate in your replies.
You are one person with one perspective, which you are absolutely entitled to have. But you are arguing against several people who all understand each other and have a shared perspective (a perspective also shared with the Curse staff and the thousands of other paying customers). Conventional wisdom would say that in most cases, it is the most commonly shared perspective that makes the most sense. Other people have come in to complain about the cost, but that has seemed to have tapered off to a considerable degree. Either those people decided that this product did not offer what they wanted at a price they were willing to pay and moved on to focus on their games as they have always played them, or as I've seen in a few cases, their perspective was changed once they actually examined the product. You have clearly spent a lot of time here, so your understanding of the product is not in question. But your continued tenacity and insistence that you are objectively right, and moreso that we are objectively wrong, is what I think is so frustrating to many of us about this discussion.
You have an opinion about how you feel like this product should be distributed, and it is a valid opinion. I don't happen to share that opinion, but I won't say you are dumb for having your own view. It is not that we don't understand your view, it's that we don't understand how you can't see this situation from alternate perspectives after it has been explained over and over again by a number of different people over the course of several months. That was why I thought this might all be trolling, as trolls tend to thrive on pushing buttons. I don't think that is the case now, but I'm explaining where my earlier thoughts were coming from.
I'm not telling you to "get lost" or anything. Quite the contrary, as I think D&D should be for everyone, and I welcome any discussion about it in between games I can get. I also don't have the authority. But I do wonder what you are still hoping to accomplish by spending time on this discussion. It has to be apparent that your views are the minority and that Curse has no plans of adopting your proposed pay model. You've thoroughly made your case, and the Curse staff has certainly seen it. It does kind of seem like it's arguing for argument's sake at this point. I hope not, but I don't see this discussion moving forward any more without some new perspectives, even if it remains entirely civil.
I'll admit the sarcasm made me mad. Sorry for my increasingly insulting tone.
See you paint this picture too like I'm the minority and the "few" people who share my view get merged into this thread are fixed by your guys' shark attacks. I doubt that. I think there are many who have my voice but you all just scare them away and I'm the only one willing to stand up to the bullies. That's the picture as I see it.
I think you and I have arrived at a good spot where we aren't trying to debunk each others' points of views. Unfortunately just as I arrive at a good spot with one of you several others take your place like the heads of hydra. Then someone with whom I'd thought we arrived at a decent spot comes back with a vengeance.
Here it is. DDB internally has a content purchased registry used to provide discounts on purchases with overlapping content and they are reportedly (by many people here) doing successful business. Also, I find that business model to inspire confidence in my purchases. And so I think it should be applied across the whole 5e product, not just DDB. I don't know why that inspires such need in people to debunk or correct me somehow?
Because, with all due respect, your understand and view is somewhat incomplete.
Curse has rights over the digital version of the content produced by WotC, and they have control over it, within the baundaries and limitations imposed by their deal with WotC.
What they do not have any control over is the physical side of things, managed by WotC and its distrubutors exclusively.
What "we" fail to "get over" is the claim that since someone has purchased the physical copy at some point until now, that they should be given access to the digital version here, either at a further discount or directly for free.
Applying something similar to future releases/new releases of the books? Sure, that would be in the realm of possibilities, but only if WotC is interested in something like that, as they are the strong party in any deal concerning 5e, being the owners of the IP and all rights associated.
You made your point, clear or not, and I want to believe you understand it is inapplicable right now for physical purchases done until WotC decided to change their model, so, please, understand that most of the comments here come from the perspective of people replying to the "demand" for free/further discounted content due to past physical purchases (I believe at least).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
My understanding wasn't lacking anything you said, but yes my view does leave those things out intentionally. I don't think it's my incentive as a consumer to accept excuses. Those excuses do nothing to appease my lack of confidence.
This is not crucial to my viewpoint. The crucial part is, like you said, it could apply to the future. In principle it could be applied to the past too, but past is past and I don't think it'd be a big deal if WotC held past deals as they were when they were made. Lack of foresight is forgivable.
Hopefully, if you're speaking for many people, this resolves the need for people to continue to gang up on me.
I'm sure there are many, but purchase history, statistics, and community feedback have overwhelmingly been positive for D&D Beyond. Frankly, the majority have expressed enjoyment and pleasure at what D&D Beyond is offering, hence there have been no plans to change the pricing model. Effectively, the market has so far voted with their wallets, and they have voted that we've got a great thing going here.
Again - I can understand the displeasure some may have, but the business model is not likely to change. Enjoy what is being offered, or search for more pleasurable pastures would be my thought.
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To me I hear that the content purchased validation business model is successful for DDB, but it wouldn't be successful for the whole 5e product even in a hypothetical future scenario where it could be implemented without the current barriers. Arguments that make sense to me are ones like "it'd be too hard" or "it'd be unlikely". But arguments like "the whole idea is flawed" or "you're the minority, people don't want that" seem hypocritical when DDB itself is implementing it* and DDB's users are enjoying it*. Do you see my confusion?
EDIT: the * refer to content purchased validation discounting overlapping content
I know some gaming stores and game publishers are involved with the "Bits and Morter" the only way I could see that working here would be doing a book purchase through amazon as they are the big bosses of beyond. But I would not understand all the legalities and such that would be required to actually work so everyone got the right amount of funds for each product.
I don't believe that I've picked any nits, nor taken anything you said out of the context you said it in.
Yes, user traffic provides advertisement revenue... but I don't think it provides so much revenue as to wholly subsidize the costs that go into providing the content and the tools that use/work with that content, at least not when paying licensing fees and giving employees livable wages.
Can you provide any evidence that supports the idea that ad revenue alone provides a large enough stream of funding for a legitimately licensed company to actually prosper on?
First, that's incredibly insulting of you to claim. We are equals and you will treat me as such, as I have and will continue to treat you.Secondly, I think that those endeavors you are speaking of are endeavors along the same lines as deliberately under-cutting the price of an introductory product in hopes that it will generate enough interest in other products to end up covering the money literally lost by setting the price too low, or those of a fast-food restaurant like Wendy's (an example I'll use because I am intimately familiar with the details) selling a particular menu item - the double stack - at a lower price than it costs to make (this being back when it was $0.99) because that brings people in the doors and they get a few negative-profit-margin sandwiches but the company pulls a profit because they also buy a high-profit-margin item (like a soda from the fountain). Eventually, the company has to stop doing the intentionally losing money thing or fail as a business. And this method of business is one that takes very high risk hoping for, but having nothing even kind of resembling a guarantee of, high rewards.
In Vegas, I got into a long argument with the man at the roulette wheel over what I considered to be an odd number. - Steven Wright
Both sides are arguing a point that I think was lost a while ago. Sedge said it best, "I can understand the displeasure some may have, but the business model is not likely to change. Enjoy what is being offered, or search for more pleasurable pastures would be my thought."
At some point, you either have to accept what D&D Beyond is, or go license your own project with WoTC. DNDB are a business at the end of the day, and they are going to follow the projects that return a profit. Sure, someone could give all this away for free, but until Richard Branson steps up, the rest of us will have to fund a business that has to pay for employees, web servers, and licensing costs. But I'm now lost as to how any of this has to do with the D&D Beyond vs Physical Books. And for the record, IMHO D&D Beyond is WAY better than physical books.
Yep, I agree. This dead horse is pulp by now. You can't debate an opinion and it doesn't look like any minds are going to change here so move on with your lives people. DDB is way better than physical books especially for DM's.
1: Digital map that a DM can project onto a playing table
2: Play with a computer open to DDB you can have multiple pages open to rules, spells, monsters, magic items, etc.
3: The content is searchable for quick access.
4: Module pictures that a DM can project onto a table.
etc.
I respectfully disagree with the tone of the last two posts.
Anyone not interested in continuing this thread is free to turn off the notifications for it.
I do agree the topic seems to have reached a stale point, but that is, IMHO, no reason to silence anyone. Also because I am 100% sure, as it already happened, if this one gets closed another 30 topics on the same matter will be opened.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is free to reply as they see fit (in the boundaries of civility and respect), but as much as I respect BrassZeus' and Barazinbar's opinions, I do not think asking people to "move on with your life", or asking sarcastic questions on the behavior of those still discussing this is the best way to go.
Again, if you are not interested in this discussion, no one forces you to follow it.
Disclaimer: I do agree with both of you when you say DDB is on average way better than physical book, and probably right because of this we have this discussion going on as long as it did.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Lek, my apologies. The sarcastic question was not needed, not helpful and I have removed it.
No offence, but the comment comes across as implying the majority as a whole, which is kind of not quite accurate.
The majority of those that bought the product or see a use for it are likely happy with it (as they would stick around and use the service/forums because of the investment). I would figure that many of those that have no interest or are unhappy with the pricing model have just moved on and don't frequent the forums/service. I would also imagine it would be quite hard to say what quantity of the overall D&D customer base that is without the wizard's market data.
While I'd surmise there is also a group keeping tabs on D&D Beyond seeing the potential it could be useful to them later, but currently isn't.
The majority of D&D players I know don't use D&D beyond, being happy with their books, don't like digital mediums at the table, or simply are not interested in buying in a second time (and/or prefer supporting their FLGS).
It is great to hear D&D Beyond is doing well though.
- Loswaith
I just bought in to D&D Beyond to run a (new DM!) Curse of Strahd campaign with my family. I have all the books, but wanted a way to display the maps, and a way to reference multiple monsters easily. I tried Fantasy Grounds (and the program is interesting, or would be if it didn't crash every time I tried to use the map masking tool), but it seems like more work than necessary just to run an in-person game. We (and as Dm, especially I) found D&DB to be quite useful.
While it probably will still end up being necessary to print the maps, the electronic source book maps are an excellent way to get the map FOR printing. The ability to pull up multiple tabs of monsters and cross-reference tags is very nice.
Overall, I am quite pleased with the service so far, and while it would be nice to see a discount related to ownership of the print books (or electronic+print bundles), I was also able to use a discount code for 25% off, so I consider that fair enough for having the print books already.