Your argument makes sense, but does not account for a lot of player's budgets. For many paying a smaller monthly fee is doable, while larger sum purchases are not. Most have to account for bills and other life expenses before any frivolous purchases and a modest subscription model is a better alternative. The downside of not having the material permanently is acceptable in that case.
You mean a lot of players' *lack* of budgets.
The argument, as presented, describes a very simple budgeting process wherein the $15/month player pays DDB $3 and puts the other $12 in a jar - repeats this behavior for a few months and *bam* they have saved enough money to buy all the content they want from DDB. Delayed gratification is the key to long-term success.
No I actually mean the player's budget. As in money considered and reserved for spending on a hobby like DnD. For a lot of players the money they have budgeted may be that small each month. And yes it could be saved month to month, which is perfectly valid, but I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse. I see a lot of people seeing DDB as a replacement for books. On the other hand there are those like myself who will only use it as a supplement to the game. My books will still be at the table, but the site is a great prep tool for a DM. Also my players don't use online tools themselves. So cost sharing isn't a great option. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat.
That moderator has been posting rude replies throughout this thread. I know he doesn't work for Curse but he is a representative of the company and is incredibly condescending.
My replies have been fairly 'matter of fact' in tone with regards to capitalistic business practices and reasonable expectations for a service of this nature. While being unpopular values to some, this does not equate to 'rude'. Everyone has had ample stage to speak on and share their thoughts.
You are welcome to disagree with my viewpoints, but I am entitled to mine, as you are yours. I have not personally attacked anyone for the way they feel, and would expect the same in return. If you perceive that you've been slighted, I encourage you to report such post.
My question with this, is when we subscribe to a tier will we be able to share our character sheets with other DMs? As in if we have a campaign, can we throw our character at that particular campaign and while we update our character sheet it will reflect, or vice versa?
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
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Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid,Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions! I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
My question with this, is when we subscribe to a tier will we be able to share our character sheets with other DMs? As in if we have a campaign, can we throw our character at that particular campaign and while we update our character sheet it will reflect, or vice versa?
Of course you can. Actually, you can do it now, but now you have the limitations of the beta test.
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
Much like an MMO, my belief structure would be that the 15 dollar per month sub would only be used in an online fashion.
Honestly, if we're inventing licensing schemes, here's my preferred scheme:
For $15/mo you get access to all non-adventure books immediately, plus $10/mo book credit. The book credit can be used toward permanently unlocking books (WotC gets paid when this happens). Books used without a permanent license give you the "lite" version: crunch, but no art and fluff.
Players can pay $5/mo for an ad-free experience, as well as "lite" access to all books.
Free accounts get free data, but they can join a campaign by a $15/monther for full access to "lite" data as part of the campaign.
This is, of course, irrelevant, because WotC didn't pick this scheme. The scheme we have is the one we have and we can provide feedback, and possibly disappointment, but changes in the short term are extremely unlikely.
Will there be a trial period for the full application? I would like to experience the Master Tier for a game or two with my players to see if it is worth the investment.
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
Much like an MMO, my belief structure would be that the 15 dollar per month sub would only be used in an online fashion.
"So, we're gonna charge you way more per year than you'd have to pay to buy the content outright, AND we're not going to let you use it unless you're online."
And you think people are complaining NOW?
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Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid,Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions! I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
So I keep seeing this whole debate regarding buying DVD doesn't mean getting the bluray free later. If you go to any retailer right now and look at buying a bluray you generally have 2 options pay 19.99 for a bluray (let's call this the hard copy of a d&d book) or paying 24.99 for a package that contains that same bluray copy a 3d bluray copy and a digital version of the movie as well.
All this said I wouldn't expect a discount for already owning the bluray and wanting to buy the 3d and digital versions. However going forward it would be nice if they offered a package deal for these products similar to what we see in bluray sales.
As someone who has been using the previously offered curse provided programs which they by the way offer at absolutely 0 cost to the user. These per book prices to be honest have caused quite a bit of sticker shock for me. I've been talking up everything that's been being added for months now. Seeing that it was dropping right before we start our new campaign had us really excited. Now to see that price point we know we can spend that kind of money. Everyone in my group us grown with a mortgage and babies to take care of. Now that said that's our blessing to deal with and not curses or WotC.
Maybe my ship of gold will come in before release and I can afford to make the purchases.
1 suggestion.... my friends and I prefer to support our local gaming store over purchasing on Amazon or other online sources. Would it be possible to put out cards redeemable cards for he different books or a set dollar amount? Similar to what say blizzard does with game time cards? That way those of us loyal to our FLGS can continue to support them if we decide to go all digital and not buy hard copies. After all the community and what it represents to all of us over our lives is half yhe reason play in the 1st place
The same company is selling you those the blu-ray, 3d, and digital version. Curse isn't WotC, they bought the licensing to be able to do this, but they aren't the same company and have no stock in you buying a physical copy of the book.
No but WotC has stock in us buying both the physical and D&DB content. Everyone can say this is a curse product not a WotC product all the want but WotC has put their official stamp on this product. They have said multiple times this is the official D&D 5e digital tool.
That moderator has been posting rude replies throughout this thread. I know he doesn't work for Curse but he is a representative of the company and is incredibly condescending.
My replies have been fairly 'matter of fact' in tone [...]
"Matter of fact" often comes off as "insensitive", especially when people are feeling disappointed or upset. I think it's fair to observe that this pricing structure excludes a lot of people who were looking forward to some online tools. Curse needs to be paid, but there are multiple ways to do that and the option that WotC and Curse chose excludes an awful lot of DnD players.
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
Much like an MMO, my belief structure would be that the 15 dollar per month sub would only be used in an online fashion.
Used only in an online fashion or like some games, require a periodic login to keep the downloaded content accessible. Much like how an Xbox 360 has to check in to keep all your digitally purchased games as recognized as yours. All of that could be handled in the app Curse is producing.
Everyone in their target market is used to paying $50 for a book, usually one book for the whole table.
I'm in their target market, and I don't pay 50 dollars for a physical book. I, ironically, buy them on amazon 40% off day one or wait 6 months and buy them elsewhere for 75% off. I own 5 PHBs and 2 MM and have a gaming group of 12. I can afford DnDB's prices. The thing is, I won't. I was sold on DnDB because it was supposed to be easy. Their pricing scheme, their "sell me things that don't exist" digital goods model isn't easy. This is the same sort of pricing scheme that killed DnD Etools back in the day. Buy books, then buy the books again in a new format, then you can use the full functionality of the thing you are subscribed to, that's just not what a lot of people want.
To be frank. Right now I have every word of every dnd book in a onenote document. Is that same text in DnDB formatted pretty by professionals worth 100 bucks to me? 60? 30? the answer is no. Its not. I already did the work. AND I did it in a way that was likely a hell of a lot harder than Curse did too, they got the text from the publisher and just formatted it. I scanned or retyped everything. There is no amount of work that Curse has done formatting text that is worth anything to me. I won't adopt anything I have to buy. People talk like this is entitlement. Its not. My decision isn't made in a vacuum. I could comment on my mortgage, student loans, or hourly wage. I could talk about the two players I have who are under age 12. Or I could talk about the one who's a clinical cancer patient. I could even talk about how many hours a month we game as working professionals. But none of that matters. Truth is I'm just not willing to BUY more. When it was a subscription sight unseen, where I could put it in the background and pretend it was not affecting my finances I could tolerate it. When I now have to consciously open my wallet. When I have to mentally weigh the options of what book I already own from my collection to purchase digitally so I can use it in a game I'm already running. That's it. That's the line. That's where I just NOPE the hell out. I wanted DnDB to be easy. The model of pricing they have chosen is where my commitment to the hobby, and my tolerance for inconvenience converge against the economic reality of being a lower middle class wage slave and the economics finally wins.
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
Much like an MMO, my belief structure would be that the 15 dollar per month sub would only be used in an online fashion.
"So, we're gonna charge you way more per year than you'd have to pay to buy the content outright, AND we're not going to let you use it unless you're online."
And you think people are complaining NOW?
I'm not seeing anything at all in this suite that works offline. As near as I can tell, there's some vague claim that you'll get ebooks offline at some nebulous time in the future, but if ebooks were all they were offering, the idea would be a non-starter. (And pirates have effectively priced them out of that market.)
Curse is offering an online, interactive service. That's their core component. Without the online service, they aren't offering much.
That moderator has been posting rude replies throughout this thread. I know he doesn't work for Curse but he is a representative of the company and is incredibly condescending.
My replies have been fairly 'matter of fact' in tone with regards to capitalistic business practices and reasonable expectations for a service of this nature. While being unpopular values to some, this does not equate to 'rude'. Everyone has had ample stage to speak on and share their thoughts.
You are welcome to disagree with my viewpoints, but I am entitled to mine, as you are yours. I have not personally attacked anyone for the way they feel, and would expect the same in return. If you perceive that you've been slighted, I encourage you to report such post.
You haven't slighted me at all. I was just surprised by the tone you've taken based on your position.
That being said, you are not incorrect in what you have said, I think most people are now just realizing that table top games are not nearly as affordable when you add digital tools. And (just like Fantasy Grounds and Roll20) the cost is unpalatable to most.
I think that most people thought that Curse was finally going to bring an affordable digital toolset to D&D as the cost of things such as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds is too much for many.
What we are seeing is the lashing out of a thousand disappointed voices.
I am saying to some players the subscription method is preferable. No harm in liking the content delivery either way. Really what I am proposing is that having more options and flexibility is better for everyone and could bring more customers. Which in turn is better for curse.
I do not see how a "$15/month for everything" subscription tier would do anything for Curse once Curse produces a product with an offline mode. At that point, they've simply created a "$15 for everything" mode.
Much like an MMO, my belief structure would be that the 15 dollar per month sub would only be used in an online fashion.
"So, we're gonna charge you way more per year than you'd have to pay to buy the content outright, AND we're not going to let you use it unless you're online."
And you think people are complaining NOW?
I'm not seeing anything at all in this suite that works offline. As near as I can tell, there's some vague claim that you'll get ebooks offline at some nebulous time in the future, but if ebooks were all they were offering, the idea would be a non-starter. (And pirates have effectively priced them out of that market.)
Curse is offering an online, interactive service. That's their core component. Without the online service, they aren't offering much.
You'll have to decide if you take them at their word. But they have stated numerous times that providing offline functionality is important to them. That this will be provided by mobile apps. And that those mobile apps are actively being developed right now.
I'm kind of envious of those picking up 5e for the first time in August. They can go completely digital from the start and save all that money.
That being said, if the tools come together as promised, I'll stop buying hardcovers and only buy digital copies here.
I was just thinking this same thing.
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Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid,Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions! I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
I don't see people saying anything like this. I see a lot of people saying why do you have to sell us books at all. A lot of the complaints seem more directed at the idea of having an all inclusive tier of subscription so that people can enjoy the books they already own at the cost of spending more over time.
That or maybe WotC could get off their behinds and have digital distribution plan from the beginning of 6th edition rather than adding it 2 years later.
Your argument makes sense, but does not account for a lot of player's budgets. For many paying a smaller monthly fee is doable, while larger sum purchases are not. Most have to account for bills and other life expenses before any frivolous purchases and a modest subscription model is a better alternative. The downside of not having the material permanently is acceptable in that case.
This right here.
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My question with this, is when we subscribe to a tier will we be able to share our character sheets with other DMs? As in if we have a campaign, can we throw our character at that particular campaign and while we update our character sheet it will reflect, or vice versa?
Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid, Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck
Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions!
I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
Honestly, if we're inventing licensing schemes, here's my preferred scheme:
For $15/mo you get access to all non-adventure books immediately, plus $10/mo book credit. The book credit can be used toward permanently unlocking books (WotC gets paid when this happens). Books used without a permanent license give you the "lite" version: crunch, but no art and fluff.
Players can pay $5/mo for an ad-free experience, as well as "lite" access to all books.
Free accounts get free data, but they can join a campaign by a $15/monther for full access to "lite" data as part of the campaign.
This is, of course, irrelevant, because WotC didn't pick this scheme. The scheme we have is the one we have and we can provide feedback, and possibly disappointment, but changes in the short term are extremely unlikely.
Will there be a trial period for the full application? I would like to experience the Master Tier for a game or two with my players to see if it is worth the investment.
Natural 20 Charisma
Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid, Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck
Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions!
I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
I'm in their target market, and I don't pay 50 dollars for a physical book. I, ironically, buy them on amazon 40% off day one or wait 6 months and buy them elsewhere for 75% off. I own 5 PHBs and 2 MM and have a gaming group of 12. I can afford DnDB's prices. The thing is, I won't. I was sold on DnDB because it was supposed to be easy. Their pricing scheme, their "sell me things that don't exist" digital goods model isn't easy. This is the same sort of pricing scheme that killed DnD Etools back in the day. Buy books, then buy the books again in a new format, then you can use the full functionality of the thing you are subscribed to, that's just not what a lot of people want.
To be frank. Right now I have every word of every dnd book in a onenote document. Is that same text in DnDB formatted pretty by professionals worth 100 bucks to me? 60? 30? the answer is no. Its not. I already did the work. AND I did it in a way that was likely a hell of a lot harder than Curse did too, they got the text from the publisher and just formatted it. I scanned or retyped everything. There is no amount of work that Curse has done formatting text that is worth anything to me. I won't adopt anything I have to buy. People talk like this is entitlement. Its not. My decision isn't made in a vacuum. I could comment on my mortgage, student loans, or hourly wage. I could talk about the two players I have who are under age 12. Or I could talk about the one who's a clinical cancer patient. I could even talk about how many hours a month we game as working professionals. But none of that matters. Truth is I'm just not willing to BUY more. When it was a subscription sight unseen, where I could put it in the background and pretend it was not affecting my finances I could tolerate it. When I now have to consciously open my wallet. When I have to mentally weigh the options of what book I already own from my collection to purchase digitally so I can use it in a game I'm already running. That's it. That's the line. That's where I just NOPE the hell out. I wanted DnDB to be easy. The model of pricing they have chosen is where my commitment to the hobby, and my tolerance for inconvenience converge against the economic reality of being a lower middle class wage slave and the economics finally wins.
I'm kind of envious of those picking up 5e for the first time in August. They can go completely digital from the start and save all that money.
That being said, if the tools come together as promised, I'll stop buying hardcovers and only buy digital copies here.
I'm on the DM's Guild: click here
Eshuvenniel Kazander Ravid, Valor Bard and Acolyte of the Goddess of Luck
Caradoc Langham, Halfling Rogue - Lost Magics - Epic of Pre-made Proportions!
I'm not looking for heaven or hell... just someone to listen to stories I tell...
@Aramalian
I don't see people saying anything like this. I see a lot of people saying why do you have to sell us books at all. A lot of the complaints seem more directed at the idea of having an all inclusive tier of subscription so that people can enjoy the books they already own at the cost of spending more over time.
That or maybe WotC could get off their behinds and have digital distribution plan from the beginning of 6th edition rather than adding it 2 years later.