In the campaign, the final boss has the Suggestion spell and is playing the informant. As of now, the players don't know that he's the villain.
I am also playing it to that the players have to roll to notice the Suggestion spell being cast. Thus far, none have rolled well enough to detect it.
The conundrum is when I tell the players "He informs you that there is no trap door in the current room, and to investigate the adjacent rooms." The player did not pass the spell save but absolutely REFUSED to leave. In accordance with the spell, "The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do."
So the question is, how do I get the players to follow the suggestion without making it clear to them that the suggestion spell was used, thereby ruining the suspense?
My suggestion is not to use the Suggestion spell in this manner, or if you must for some reason, do other things as well to lead players where you want them to go. Say stuff like "You feel drawn to the hallway beyond." or "You get a feeling in your gut that this course of action would be best." and go from there.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
"He informs you there is no trap door in the current room"
Be more suggestive. "You look around the room. As you do so, he says, "Oh, just another boring bedroom. There's hundreds of these. Hey, that room over there looks way more interesting." You look again, and yes, this room is about as interesting as the 10 year old Dental Products catalogue in the dentist's waiting room, but you have a good vibe about your prospects in the next room".
I'm sorry if this is overly presumptuous but... I'm gonna kinda go out on a limb here and say your players know this guy is the villain by now? I mean, there're only so many ways to have your players roll a Perception check after every directive this guy gives, let them hear you rolling some dice behind a screen, and say "Okay, you all immediately obey his advice!" without giving them some reason for pause. If I were a betting person, I'd guess this guy was staying behind to test whether he COULD stay behind, and honestly, I think at this point in the game it's perfectly reasonable to say "You feel your feet moving anyway, as your consciousness narrows in on moving to the next room. You have to move on to the next room, you're compelled to. NPC says there's no reason to stay here, and in this moment, you absolutely and without a doubt believe and obey him" because he's testing the waters and his suspicion is correct, and it feels like this is the right time to verify that. If your players have the option to realize what's going on and force the issue before the NPC is ready for them to, the scenario looks like a dastardly NPC using a spell but cunning players thwarting him. If their thoughts and deductions mean nothing because they didn't roll high enough to see him cast the spell and you say they didn't make the save so they aren't allowed to question his motives and they have to go in the right direction, it feels like the DM is using a spell to force the players to do this in a very particular way, and that doesn't feel so good. Even if you're giving them every chance to roll high, and playing everything straight and by the book, which I do believe you are! It's not that I think you're playing this unfairly, but I do think it's going to feel to your players like you are if you try to find ways around them deducing this at this point. I understand you probably had a really cool thing planned, but I think the jig is up.
The above commenters have good points about making Suggestion more subtle and... suggesting, rather than a simple directive that the PCs have to obey. Honestly, if I wanted to play the Villain in Disguise leading the players through a dungeon, I'd probably try to make it more like he's protecting them from an evil place where sometimes it can feel like the rooms themselves have a mind of their own. Instead of "Nothing to see here, absolutely no trap doors," I'd have him say something like, "I have a very bad feeling about this room. We should move on quickly." Everyone rolls Perception (they think it's because the room is evil, but they're actually rolling to detect Suggestion), you make some secret dice rolls (they're nervous because What's in this room?! What is DM rolling?!, you know it's Wisdom saves vs Suggestion); whoever fails their Wisdom save also gets told they feel this haunting presence too and feel repelled from this room (they think it's something to do with their Perception mixed with whatever you just rolled and they're nervous in real life about what might be about to happen to them. Importantly, they think in real life that they're actually detecting something evil and dangerous, and they think they should leave this room because it's the self-preserving thing to do).
If anyone wants to stay behind, heck. You could say they start to investigate the room, but the repulsion and fear get steadily stronger. They manage to find some gold coins under the bed before those terrible feelings get overwhelming and they are compelled to leave. Or, one option is to fudge it- tell yourself they passed their Wisdom save after all. Have NPC say something to try to encourage them not to stay, or have NPC quietly laud their courage and pretend to help them search the room. Then, maybe have your player set off a trap- and have NPC save them! Thank goodness NPC had that Counterspell, or a Fireball would have gone off in StubbornPC's face! We are so glad to have NPC here, goodness; we trust them implicitly. We should always listen to them from now on. Basically, Suggestion is a creepy spell and players are going to notice SOMETHING weird going on if it's cast on them. If you don't want them to suspect the caster, you need to misdirect their suspicion. Litter the dungeon with cursed items, suspicious runes, strange and foreboding noises. Make them suspect that everything is giving them these compulsions except the NPC they should definitely trust. But if they figure it out- and it's totally likely that at least someone will, because that's how players work- and the NPC is out of excuses or alternative plans, then let them figure it out. Nothing wrong with muttering "Dang it, what I had planned was SO COOL" and then having a dramatic and terrifying unveiling of your villain's true nature before your freaked out players are told to roll initiative.
I guess the hangup as you are casting it on a PC and not on an NPC is that "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable." The PC, controlled by the player, has his/her own mind, clearly tied to the player, and obviously a suspicion, so even if he/she passes his/her save, but refuses to follow the suggestion, that means it wasn't reasonable enough to influence him/her. While it might seem a "reasonable" suggestion to you, given the circumstances the PC is in, the PC obviously doesn't think that the suggestion was reasonable, as he/she feels threatened/intrigued/curious about the current room.
As far as the PC realizing the spell is being cast or not, as in the PHB and Basic rules here the spell with a subtle effect (such as this one here) would go unnoticed. Short of telling the Player that he/she failed a saving throw (obviously acknowledging that a spell was cast) the player has no way of knowing a spell was cast, so you won't be "found out" right away.
Then again looking a bit more, per this WOTC article, the verbal component of suggestion is separate from the actual suggestion, meaning it can be totally noticeable (but I assume you "hid" it with stealth/perception rolls or something similar, which is fine). But also in the same article, in the section just above it's stated
"Some spells are so subtle that you might not know you were ever under their effects. A prime example of that sort of spell is suggestion. Assuming you failed to notice the spellcaster casting the spell, you might simply remember the caster saying, “The treasure you’re looking for isn’t here. Go look for it in the room at the top of the next tower.” You failed your saving throw, and off you went to the other tower, thinking it was your idea to go there. You and your companions might deduce that you were beguiled if evidence of the spell is found. It’s ultimately up to the DM whether you discover the presence of inconspicuous spells. Discovery usually comes through the use of skills like Arcana, Investigation, Insight, and Perception or through spells like detect magic."
I'd take that as you are basically informing the players that the spell has been cast on them, they failed the save and thus have to do the action because it's reasonable, but then don't know that the spell was cast -- this knowledge is all given to the player which would make it obvious they were duped, but the PC wouldn't know this and thus shouldn't act as if they know it. That's alot to ask of a party, especially over an extended period -- I mean what are they going to do, continue listening to the guy who just cast a spell on them even though they know it but the PC's technically don't? That would just make an un-fun game experience I think, and lead to a lot of "Well my PC knows this I think, and that, so he would determine that he knew this happened" and just derail the game. I think an explanation of how they would implement this scenario would be helpful.
It's easier to try and suggest just one party member. Do so subtly by texting him or passing a note asking him to roll his save. Should he fail, text again, telling him he's been banjaxed and is compelled to go to the new room. As much as it'll suck to have your character get got, I'm sure the player will enjoy being in on your plan as a DM and more easily accept pulling the other players in the direction the story leads. They did something similar on Critical Role and it worked pretty well.
You guys often do it by book too much. Why give players more then they asked ?
My word of advice... If the players dont ask then you dont have to say or make them do anything. Meaning if they dont ask for perception checks then they just dont do it. If they dont ask for insight... Then they didnt do it.
Now onto your criminal... Somtimes its unavoidable. You have to tell them they do something without realising it. Some players have problem differentiating themselves from the character. Meaning they think they are the character and thus metagame. Basically if they know something then character knows even if he was miles away. At that point you need to either be more subtle or straight up taking control of their character.
The suggestions above me all fine solutions. But know there is no easy way to fool players. Sometimes you will have to suspend belief to make them understand whats happening.
My favorite from above though... Your gut tell you this room is not worth it and you start moving to the next room. Its simple and elegant.
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Thank for the advice! I'll have to be more subtle.
As for whether or not they know, I've been having them roll perception checks when they search the room, since its the same as the Wis. ST, and no one has proficiency on the save. I haven't been telling them it's for a spell. No one has asked. They all assumed it was for searching the room.
As for why the one player stayed, when I asked, he noted that I gave the rug in the room more detail than the others, and the room belonged to the previous alchemist. What was supposed to be some foreshadowing turned to fixation.
On the subject of "your gut tells you this..." how do you effectively create emotions in the characters without taking over the character? Haven't been DMing that long. Last time I tried the "you react in a panic and do this" scenario, the player in question complained for a week about how I was choosing his reactions for him based on the roll. But where do you draw the line when players make bad rolls and then dont want to react accordingly in the narrative?
On the subject of "your gut tells you this..." how do you effectively create emotions in the characters without taking over the character? Haven't been DMing that long. Last time I tried the "you react in a panic and do this" scenario, the player in question complained for a week about how I was choosing his reactions for him based on the roll. But where do you draw the line when players make bad rolls and then dont want to react accordingly in the narrative?
that is the problem plaguing D&D games left and right. players dont know how to role play, role playing includes emotions, most players don't understand emotions and needs you to instill it. unfortunately how do you instil emotions to a person that is charmed ? the person has to understand that you the DM cannot force emotions into beings, but they as the players are forced to role play it. my cousin with which i play fears nothing, so all of his characters feels nothing and fear nothing. basically is the terminator in every single games. how do you cope with such players, well, you role play more to them.
exemple: my cousin had gotten a madness and he was imagining a fey creature following him. how did i make him understand that madness, i actually talked to him as the fey creature. i literally talked to him and he actually responded to it. it was physical to him and when i said to others they don't see it, he responded why do they don't ? i didn't explain to him what was hapenning, i simply answered by the fey itself and said they don't see or hear me because i don't want to. i said you're the one i'm interested in. and that played well and to him it was nothing, but to others he was crazy as shit, mission accomplished, he looked crazy except for himself.
its really a case by case, but it seems to me like those players of yours don't know how to role play emotions, they role play themselves not the character they have on their sheet. in that case what you need to do is instill them with your emotions without telling them they feel something. tone and vocals are important in this case. exemples below...
bad case : DM:"you feel like you are followed and watched, it scares you" -this is after a fear spell
Good case : DM:"You hear footsteps, but when you turn around... they stop. your peripheral visions you see eyeballs, but when you turn, they vanishes." and while you are saying these, you say these in a creepy voice, slowly revealing each words
conclusion, your role play will prompt their role play. in this case, the player didn't want to change his mind because he was convinced that there was something in this room, because of your descriptions. one way to make him change his mind is to literally make him find nothing. don't tell him his mind has changed, start telling him the room his stale.
exemple: DM:"the room has a bright red carpet on the floor, 2 bookshelves full of colorful books and a bed on the far side of the room." Player:"something is here !" NPC:"nah this is just a regular room, let's pass to the next." Player:"No i'll stay and search the room" DM:"Sure, roll a perception check" Player:"22" DM:"what you saw as bright colorful carpet seems bland to you, the motif are unimpressive, the color loses its brightness once you checks it, its just a regular carpet, same with the books and bed, this is just a regular old room"
the exemple above is the DM changing his own description to make the player doubt his own first impression. thats how you convince players that they were mentally changed. you just change their pespective, but selling that perspective is what is hard to do. some players will accept it, others won't. it boils down to what they interpret as role plays. for many playeers role play is all about leveling, it has nothing to do with character mindset. this is what i call the video game syndrome, by todays standard we call role playing game any game with actual leveling in it. while thats not even close to the definition of a role playing game.
don't know if any of this will make sense to you though. it reeally depends on your players at this point.
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It's easier to try and suggest just one party member. Do so subtly by texting him or passing a note asking him to roll his save. Should he fail, text again, telling him he's been banjaxed and is compelled to go to the new room. As much as it'll suck to have your character get got, I'm sure the player will enjoy being in on your plan as a DM and more easily accept pulling the other players in the direction the story leads. They did something similar on Critical Role and it worked pretty well.
that is a problem in a game where players often metagame without truly metagaming. it slike the DM rolling, it proimpts the players into stopping whatever they do and wondering why the check and thus will start acting as if dangers was lurking around the corner. this is why i roll dice without doing anything with them. now my playerrs don't know if i'm just messing with my dices or if something is about to happen and it scares them. if you start giving notes to people to keep secret it will turn your players against each others. because now some players will wanna know what you just said, they will interrogate the other player and sometimes fight may ensue when a player do not reveal anything. i used to do it because my players weren't capable of role playing knowledge. took them a few months to understand what role playing was all about. now i don't need to do this note passing anymore, i just tell them in their face and they actually ignore what their character do not know. makes the story much less fighty between them and they get to hear the story anyway.
but again this is entirely dependant on how well those players can compartment knowledge.
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So the question is, how do I get the players to follow the suggestion without making it clear to them that the suggestion spell was used, thereby ruining the suspense?
Lie.
"You search the room but don't find anything of interest." The player will move on. Job done.
Does your group roleplay at all? Because if so, the most important thing in D&D is to separate player and character knowledge. Tell them this. Try to have your party 'embody' their characters, instead of just controlling them, if that makes sense. Part of the fun, for me, is getting lost in the fantasy and going along with it. If they still don't want to leave/ they still are being stubborn, have them play it out in character, have them tell the NPC they don't want to, not just tell you that they don't want to.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
If a note being passed after a simple check/save is enough to cause meatgaming behavior or party in-fighting, that's more indicative of the player's not being in the right frame of mind as opposed to a poor method of executing a subtle game mechanic. And with a group like that, just straight up telling them is definitely gonna kill immersion. I suggest the note because it seems the DM wants to preserve a little bit of mystery to drive the players along and make his story a tad more exciting once the reveal comes. Otherwise, I agree full heartedly that telling your player's straight up should be viable with a group that cares about the story taking place. The only problem with it is suddenly everyone wants to start rolling perception/investigation/arcana/insight checks to see if they noticed the spell being cast or a difference in their friends demeanor. I personally like to forgo the chance of that occurring and keep things clandestine. Reveals like that coming up later are always intresting, for my players at least.
Sorry, meant to quote DnDPaldin in this as a reply.
Noman: i totally agree with you on the mystery, just saying that even the notes will not work if the players are not invested in story or cannot even differentiate player knowledge from character knowledge.
my point was... not every players are actors or theatrical people. many people will just follow around, others will act as if this was a video game and will ignore your story. others will only drink the story and hate combats. others will try to be like in a movie and be the main star. there are as many types of players as there are games in this world. the notes is a good idea, as much as whispers as much as me taking a player aside and talking to him privately. all these are perfectly viable things... but onc eyou go back to the table and you have players who metagame a lot because they can't act in character. they will say "why has the DM talked to him privately? something is up, !" and they might simply just start insight on every actions the player does. that's metagaming, thats something they shouldn't know and act upon. the same way some people will ask a ton of info on every single detail you will say. "the dm describes a room, one of the player says, he passed too much time on that door at the far end, something is up lets explore that door first" thats also metagaming. and if the players are like that, passing a note will not make a difference. they will act upon that note too.
so as mentionned, it really really depends on your players, the method you use depends on your players and sometimes you just have no choice but to tell them in their face. exemple... a group i played with had no interest for stories... all they wanted was to dungeon delve, kick the door, pick the loot, kill monster. sometimes literally in that order. reguardless of how much i wanted them to role play there was none, they were murder hobos all the time, killing every NPCs because all they cared about was the XP. that group i didn't play with long i can tell you, but the 5 sessions we played... nothing i tryed could get through to them. there are people like that in this world so it really depends on who you play with and what they expect. thats why during character creation you should talk to your players about the type of games they expect and the type of game you expect.
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As someone who's played Vampire: the Masquerade (and the Requiem spin off) before, in games with rampant mind control, let me tell you that its virtually impossible to actually pull this off without some level of OOC player knowledge. There has to be some level of understanding that the character's actions aren't just their own, because players have other ideas they want to pursue.
There's a saying - "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Now, the players aren't an enemy, but the intent is close enough. No matter how good you are as a GM, there's going to be a clash of plans. If you're going to do this, you kinda need to have some level of transparency and buy in with the players, even if the characters are clueless, to make it work.
Now, you can muddy the waters and make it seem like its an area effect, encouraging people to move on, rather than just the villain casting it. Make a pointed delay between the NPC's actions and the note, to disassociate the two. Have a different NPC do some casting as a red herring (succubi are good for that, since they can do it from the ethereal plane as well). Depending on the group, this could actually help build story tension as well, as they feel a slight dissonance, a build up of horror, before the climax.
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In the campaign, the final boss has the Suggestion spell and is playing the informant. As of now, the players don't know that he's the villain.
I am also playing it to that the players have to roll to notice the Suggestion spell being cast. Thus far, none have rolled well enough to detect it.
The conundrum is when I tell the players "He informs you that there is no trap door in the current room, and to investigate the adjacent rooms." The player did not pass the spell save but absolutely REFUSED to leave. In accordance with the spell, "The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do."
So the question is, how do I get the players to follow the suggestion without making it clear to them that the suggestion spell was used, thereby ruining the suspense?
My suggestion is not to use the Suggestion spell in this manner, or if you must for some reason, do other things as well to lead players where you want them to go. Say stuff like "You feel drawn to the hallway beyond." or "You get a feeling in your gut that this course of action would be best." and go from there.
"He informs you there is no trap door in the current room"
Be more suggestive. "You look around the room. As you do so, he says, "Oh, just another boring bedroom. There's hundreds of these. Hey, that room over there looks way more interesting." You look again, and yes, this room is about as interesting as the 10 year old Dental Products catalogue in the dentist's waiting room, but you have a good vibe about your prospects in the next room".
I'm sorry if this is overly presumptuous but... I'm gonna kinda go out on a limb here and say your players know this guy is the villain by now? I mean, there're only so many ways to have your players roll a Perception check after every directive this guy gives, let them hear you rolling some dice behind a screen, and say "Okay, you all immediately obey his advice!" without giving them some reason for pause. If I were a betting person, I'd guess this guy was staying behind to test whether he COULD stay behind, and honestly, I think at this point in the game it's perfectly reasonable to say "You feel your feet moving anyway, as your consciousness narrows in on moving to the next room. You have to move on to the next room, you're compelled to. NPC says there's no reason to stay here, and in this moment, you absolutely and without a doubt believe and obey him" because he's testing the waters and his suspicion is correct, and it feels like this is the right time to verify that. If your players have the option to realize what's going on and force the issue before the NPC is ready for them to, the scenario looks like a dastardly NPC using a spell but cunning players thwarting him. If their thoughts and deductions mean nothing because they didn't roll high enough to see him cast the spell and you say they didn't make the save so they aren't allowed to question his motives and they have to go in the right direction, it feels like the DM is using a spell to force the players to do this in a very particular way, and that doesn't feel so good. Even if you're giving them every chance to roll high, and playing everything straight and by the book, which I do believe you are! It's not that I think you're playing this unfairly, but I do think it's going to feel to your players like you are if you try to find ways around them deducing this at this point. I understand you probably had a really cool thing planned, but I think the jig is up.
The above commenters have good points about making Suggestion more subtle and... suggesting, rather than a simple directive that the PCs have to obey. Honestly, if I wanted to play the Villain in Disguise leading the players through a dungeon, I'd probably try to make it more like he's protecting them from an evil place where sometimes it can feel like the rooms themselves have a mind of their own. Instead of "Nothing to see here, absolutely no trap doors," I'd have him say something like, "I have a very bad feeling about this room. We should move on quickly." Everyone rolls Perception (they think it's because the room is evil, but they're actually rolling to detect Suggestion), you make some secret dice rolls (they're nervous because What's in this room?! What is DM rolling?!, you know it's Wisdom saves vs Suggestion); whoever fails their Wisdom save also gets told they feel this haunting presence too and feel repelled from this room (they think it's something to do with their Perception mixed with whatever you just rolled and they're nervous in real life about what might be about to happen to them. Importantly, they think in real life that they're actually detecting something evil and dangerous, and they think they should leave this room because it's the self-preserving thing to do).
If anyone wants to stay behind, heck. You could say they start to investigate the room, but the repulsion and fear get steadily stronger. They manage to find some gold coins under the bed before those terrible feelings get overwhelming and they are compelled to leave. Or, one option is to fudge it- tell yourself they passed their Wisdom save after all. Have NPC say something to try to encourage them not to stay, or have NPC quietly laud their courage and pretend to help them search the room. Then, maybe have your player set off a trap- and have NPC save them! Thank goodness NPC had that Counterspell, or a Fireball would have gone off in StubbornPC's face! We are so glad to have NPC here, goodness; we trust them implicitly. We should always listen to them from now on. Basically, Suggestion is a creepy spell and players are going to notice SOMETHING weird going on if it's cast on them. If you don't want them to suspect the caster, you need to misdirect their suspicion. Litter the dungeon with cursed items, suspicious runes, strange and foreboding noises. Make them suspect that everything is giving them these compulsions except the NPC they should definitely trust. But if they figure it out- and it's totally likely that at least someone will, because that's how players work- and the NPC is out of excuses or alternative plans, then let them figure it out. Nothing wrong with muttering "Dang it, what I had planned was SO COOL" and then having a dramatic and terrifying unveiling of your villain's true nature before your freaked out players are told to roll initiative.
I guess the hangup as you are casting it on a PC and not on an NPC is that "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable." The PC, controlled by the player, has his/her own mind, clearly tied to the player, and obviously a suspicion, so even if he/she passes his/her save, but refuses to follow the suggestion, that means it wasn't reasonable enough to influence him/her. While it might seem a "reasonable" suggestion to you, given the circumstances the PC is in, the PC obviously doesn't think that the suggestion was reasonable, as he/she feels threatened/intrigued/curious about the current room.
As far as the PC realizing the spell is being cast or not, as in the PHB and Basic rules here the spell with a subtle effect (such as this one here) would go unnoticed. Short of telling the Player that he/she failed a saving throw (obviously acknowledging that a spell was cast) the player has no way of knowing a spell was cast, so you won't be "found out" right away.
Edit: Adding this -- A suggestion is not a command :)
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Then again looking a bit more, per this WOTC article, the verbal component of suggestion is separate from the actual suggestion, meaning it can be totally noticeable (but I assume you "hid" it with stealth/perception rolls or something similar, which is fine). But also in the same article, in the section just above it's stated
I'd take that as you are basically informing the players that the spell has been cast on them, they failed the save and thus have to do the action because it's reasonable, but then don't know that the spell was cast -- this knowledge is all given to the player which would make it obvious they were duped, but the PC wouldn't know this and thus shouldn't act as if they know it. That's alot to ask of a party, especially over an extended period -- I mean what are they going to do, continue listening to the guy who just cast a spell on them even though they know it but the PC's technically don't? That would just make an un-fun game experience I think, and lead to a lot of "Well my PC knows this I think, and that, so he would determine that he knew this happened" and just derail the game. I think an explanation of how they would implement this scenario would be helpful.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
It's easier to try and suggest just one party member. Do so subtly by texting him or passing a note asking him to roll his save. Should he fail, text again, telling him he's been banjaxed and is compelled to go to the new room. As much as it'll suck to have your character get got, I'm sure the player will enjoy being in on your plan as a DM and more easily accept pulling the other players in the direction the story leads. They did something similar on Critical Role and it worked pretty well.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
You guys often do it by book too much. Why give players more then they asked ?
My word of advice... If the players dont ask then you dont have to say or make them do anything. Meaning if they dont ask for perception checks then they just dont do it. If they dont ask for insight... Then they didnt do it.
Now onto your criminal... Somtimes its unavoidable. You have to tell them they do something without realising it. Some players have problem differentiating themselves from the character. Meaning they think they are the character and thus metagame. Basically if they know something then character knows even if he was miles away. At that point you need to either be more subtle or straight up taking control of their character.
The suggestions above me all fine solutions. But know there is no easy way to fool players. Sometimes you will have to suspend belief to make them understand whats happening.
My favorite from above though... Your gut tell you this room is not worth it and you start moving to the next room. Its simple and elegant.
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Likes to create stuff.
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Thank for the advice! I'll have to be more subtle.
As for whether or not they know, I've been having them roll perception checks when they search the room, since its the same as the Wis. ST, and no one has proficiency on the save. I haven't been telling them it's for a spell. No one has asked. They all assumed it was for searching the room.
As for why the one player stayed, when I asked, he noted that I gave the rug in the room more detail than the others, and the room belonged to the previous alchemist. What was supposed to be some foreshadowing turned to fixation.
On the subject of "your gut tells you this..." how do you effectively create emotions in the characters without taking over the character? Haven't been DMing that long. Last time I tried the "you react in a panic and do this" scenario, the player in question complained for a week about how I was choosing his reactions for him based on the roll. But where do you draw the line when players make bad rolls and then dont want to react accordingly in the narrative?
exemple:
my cousin had gotten a madness and he was imagining a fey creature following him. how did i make him understand that madness, i actually talked to him as the fey creature. i literally talked to him and he actually responded to it. it was physical to him and when i said to others they don't see it, he responded why do they don't ? i didn't explain to him what was hapenning, i simply answered by the fey itself and said they don't see or hear me because i don't want to. i said you're the one i'm interested in. and that played well and to him it was nothing, but to others he was crazy as shit, mission accomplished, he looked crazy except for himself.
in that case what you need to do is instill them with your emotions without telling them they feel something. tone and vocals are important in this case. exemples below...
DM:"you feel like you are followed and watched, it scares you" -this is after a fear spell
DM:"You hear footsteps, but when you turn around... they stop. your peripheral visions you see eyeballs, but when you turn, they vanishes."
and while you are saying these, you say these in a creepy voice, slowly revealing each words
in this case, the player didn't want to change his mind because he was convinced that there was something in this room, because of your descriptions. one way to make him change his mind is to literally make him find nothing. don't tell him his mind has changed, start telling him the room his stale.
DM:"the room has a bright red carpet on the floor, 2 bookshelves full of colorful books and a bed on the far side of the room."
Player:"something is here !"
NPC:"nah this is just a regular room, let's pass to the next."
Player:"No i'll stay and search the room"
DM:"Sure, roll a perception check"
Player:"22"
DM:"what you saw as bright colorful carpet seems bland to you, the motif are unimpressive, the color loses its brightness once you checks it, its just a regular carpet, same with the books and bed, this is just a regular old room"
DM of two gaming groups.
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
it slike the DM rolling, it proimpts the players into stopping whatever they do and wondering why the check and thus will start acting as if dangers was lurking around the corner. this is why i roll dice without doing anything with them. now my playerrs don't know if i'm just messing with my dices or if something is about to happen and it scares them. if you start giving notes to people to keep secret it will turn your players against each others. because now some players will wanna know what you just said, they will interrogate the other player and sometimes fight may ensue when a player do not reveal anything. i used to do it because my players weren't capable of role playing knowledge. took them a few months to understand what role playing was all about. now i don't need to do this note passing anymore, i just tell them in their face and they actually ignore what their character do not know. makes the story much less fighty between them and they get to hear the story anyway.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
The player will move on. Job done.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Does your group roleplay at all? Because if so, the most important thing in D&D is to separate player and character knowledge. Tell them this. Try to have your party 'embody' their characters, instead of just controlling them, if that makes sense. Part of the fun, for me, is getting lost in the fantasy and going along with it. If they still don't want to leave/ they still are being stubborn, have them play it out in character, have them tell the NPC they don't want to, not just tell you that they don't want to.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
If a note being passed after a simple check/save is enough to cause meatgaming behavior or party in-fighting, that's more indicative of the player's not being in the right frame of mind as opposed to a poor method of executing a subtle game mechanic. And with a group like that, just straight up telling them is definitely gonna kill immersion. I suggest the note because it seems the DM wants to preserve a little bit of mystery to drive the players along and make his story a tad more exciting once the reveal comes. Otherwise, I agree full heartedly that telling your player's straight up should be viable with a group that cares about the story taking place. The only problem with it is suddenly everyone wants to start rolling perception/investigation/arcana/insight checks to see if they noticed the spell being cast or a difference in their friends demeanor. I personally like to forgo the chance of that occurring and keep things clandestine. Reveals like that coming up later are always intresting, for my players at least.
Sorry, meant to quote DnDPaldin in this as a reply.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
Noman: i totally agree with you on the mystery, just saying that even the notes will not work if the players are not invested in story or cannot even differentiate player knowledge from character knowledge.
my point was... not every players are actors or theatrical people. many people will just follow around, others will act as if this was a video game and will ignore your story. others will only drink the story and hate combats. others will try to be like in a movie and be the main star. there are as many types of players as there are games in this world. the notes is a good idea, as much as whispers as much as me taking a player aside and talking to him privately. all these are perfectly viable things... but onc eyou go back to the table and you have players who metagame a lot because they can't act in character. they will say "why has the DM talked to him privately? something is up, !" and they might simply just start insight on every actions the player does. that's metagaming, thats something they shouldn't know and act upon. the same way some people will ask a ton of info on every single detail you will say. "the dm describes a room, one of the player says, he passed too much time on that door at the far end, something is up lets explore that door first" thats also metagaming. and if the players are like that, passing a note will not make a difference. they will act upon that note too.
so as mentionned, it really really depends on your players, the method you use depends on your players and sometimes you just have no choice but to tell them in their face.
exemple...
a group i played with had no interest for stories... all they wanted was to dungeon delve, kick the door, pick the loot, kill monster. sometimes literally in that order.
reguardless of how much i wanted them to role play there was none, they were murder hobos all the time, killing every NPCs because all they cared about was the XP.
that group i didn't play with long i can tell you, but the 5 sessions we played... nothing i tryed could get through to them. there are people like that in this world so it really depends on who you play with and what they expect. thats why during character creation you should talk to your players about the type of games they expect and the type of game you expect.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
As someone who's played Vampire: the Masquerade (and the Requiem spin off) before, in games with rampant mind control, let me tell you that its virtually impossible to actually pull this off without some level of OOC player knowledge. There has to be some level of understanding that the character's actions aren't just their own, because players have other ideas they want to pursue.
There's a saying - "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Now, the players aren't an enemy, but the intent is close enough. No matter how good you are as a GM, there's going to be a clash of plans. If you're going to do this, you kinda need to have some level of transparency and buy in with the players, even if the characters are clueless, to make it work.
Now, you can muddy the waters and make it seem like its an area effect, encouraging people to move on, rather than just the villain casting it. Make a pointed delay between the NPC's actions and the note, to disassociate the two. Have a different NPC do some casting as a red herring (succubi are good for that, since they can do it from the ethereal plane as well). Depending on the group, this could actually help build story tension as well, as they feel a slight dissonance, a build up of horror, before the climax.