My party is currently on their way through the campaign, we've had the Tarot reading and they just transported Ireena to Vallaki. One of my players is playing a Blood hunter and is having fun with quelling heresy. I thought in the start this would just be undead and the like... I was wrong... Because the priest in the church in Barovia was keeping his son locked up in the basement as a vampire he apparently had dirty hands in the blood hunters eyes... after several attempts to dissuade him he set fire to the church.... then came the church in Vallaki...
My question is what do you do?
I sent a text to the other PC's telling them that maybe they were becoming suspect of the things the blood hunter was doing. To the Blood Hunter I said that he felt compelled to continue burning down these churches.
My half baked idea would be to add a church in Krezk so he can burn that one down, then after they kill strahd if they manage to do that. Have something along the lines of a bigger bad appear (Stahd and the 3 churches were essentially seals looking this thing away.) Strahd wasn't evil he got himself turned into a vampire so he could forever make sure this bigger bad remained locked away.
What should this bigger bad be and is this even a good idea???
Have you read about who / what "The Abbot" is in the Abbey of Saint Markovia in Krezk? Beef him up a little and that guy could be the new bigger bad guy, for sure.
Alternatively, what about locking an avatar of a Great Old One away inside The Amber Temple, or using the Lich that's already there?
That being said, I can't speak for you or your players, but my own personal feelings is that this isn't a great way to end the campaign. Are you familiar with Dragon Ball Z? Basically, the story archs are practically identical where, for some reason, there's always one more bad guy who's bigger, badder, and stronger than the previous one. I understand that some people do enjoy that kind of story, but I personally do not. If throughout the campaign Strahd was the primary antagonist, I defeat him, and then the story suddenly changes to, "actually he was a guardian against a greater evil--now you have to fight it." I'd probably walk out. Again, that's just me.
I think you're on the right track here though and I hope this was helpful.
I agree with what you say about DBZ being frustrating in that it just a constant oh look here is another guy who is stronger than the last on repeat cycle. I really don't want it to be the case here, I just think there should be some consequence for the actions of my PC who's burning down the churches. Right now as far as the party knows Barovia has fallen to some unknown force with the loss of the churches holy protection there.
Little side note I replaced the Lich in the Amber Temple with a beholder, knowing my players they would just kill the poor powerless lich anyway. Plus I've wanted to use a beholder on them for awhile now.
What do you think about this, the party defeats Strahd and the mists clear allowing the party to leave. However one of the characters has a dream of something stirring in Barovia after them being gone a few years. That's when a previously blank page of the Tome of Strahd has writing on it describing some locked away something.
That’s definitely a cool way to do it, I think. Although, that sounds like the kickoff to an entirely new campaign/mini-adventure. Is that intentional? To me, it seems like the Blood Hunter’s consequence could either be a far reaching threat, like what you’ve mentioned, or a newly formed complication to the current adventure. Along that line of thinking, here’s my input:
The party arrives in Krezk and the Blood Hunter eventually burns down the Abbey of Saint Markovia. After doing so, The Abbott approaches and informs them that Barovia is like a reservoir of terrible shadow magic and the churches plus Strahd have been the stone dam keeping it all in Barovia. With the churches gone, the dam is cracked and leaking--now, if you defeat Strahd, the mists will clear and the dam will surely break, thus flooding the material plane and plaguing it with all kinds of manifestations of Barovia’s evil shadows. What are they going to do now?
Currently I think the plan is to jump into the dragon heist campaign once it releases, so I'm the filler campaign til then. My party still has yet to seek out the 3 items for strahds downfall and they haven't found their Helpful NPC yet either so we have some time. I like your idea alot, a common complaint I've heard with the pre con adventures is once its done those characters just sit there, so I think my party would really like having a looming issue to go back to and continue on their adventure. Maybe they are holding back an Ancient One ( I believe that's what it was called in the DMsguild) and this Ancient One as the "seals" are broken things begin to twist, and when strahd is finally defeated the characters return to the material plane to a twisted landscape ruled now by said Ancient One. Though as you mentioned before it kind of feels like the DBZ scenario... who knew one player could cause such a headache.
I had similar happenings. My players burned Old Bonegrinder after being cast out by Morgantha. Rather than fight, the witches polymorphed and escaped while the players trundled on to Vallaki. Now, I'm having them deal with consequences of their actions. The whole town saw the smoke, and panick is mounting as citizens fear the hags descending on their town, stealing children and sowing madness. Though there's no proof it was them, the ever xenophobic Vallakians suspect the three long-earred outsiders that arrived at the eastern gate shortly after smoke was sighted are responsible. Commoners are avoiding them outright, making intel gathering nearly impossible. Rictavio, due to his elven appearance, is also cast under suspicion, and may leave town earlier than planned without revealing himself to such foolish adventurers. Even the Martikovs, currently under siege by the hags and druids under Baba Lysaga, are slow to trust and unwilling to help those that would incur their wrath and attack those who aid them. The burgomaster will be keeping Izek close to them and Lady Watcher hopes to use the distrust towards the party as a point of proof that they need her help like she needs theirs. All due to a single windmill going up in flame.
Consequences happen when extreme measures are taken. If the blood hunter razes the Abbey of Saint Markovia, the Abbot would destroy him. He was sent to honor the abbey after the saint's death and the church's destruction, as well as the murder of the Abbot's creations, would bring a fury down on him that none of your players would survive. He's a CR 10 for crying out loud. He could kill the bloodhunter with time enough to put out the flames I bet.
I hate to say it, but his character is disturbing too much in Barovia to be tolerated by the frightened townspeople. I can see getting away with burning the church in Barovia, but if the party wasn't driven from Vallaki after burning St. Anderal's by pitchforks and pikes, they frankly should've. And furthermore, news of this would probably ban them from entering Krezk under any circumstances. The wereravens would see the adventurers as destroyers of peace and abandon them. I'm not saying he's a bad player or doing wrong by any means, but when your character is that extreme and destructive by nature, you're asking to get ganked in a campaign setting like this.
However, perhaps Strahd sees this as something he could use. Perhaps the bloodhunter's zeal for cleansing could be turned on the rest of the party, or on the NPC ally from the card reading, or even on the hunter himself. Strahd would use him to eliminate the party, or at least sow discord among them, until his usefulness ends. Then, he'd be killed outright. If your player manages to NOT burn St. Markovia's and die at the hands of a corrupt celestial, I'd have Strahd craft schemes for that player. Either he's manipulated to work in Strahd's plans, or he realizes he's been targeted for his dark acts that he thought was pure and just (much like the Abbot himself). Could turn into a cool arch.
Don't forget, one of Strahd's goals is to find someone to take his place as dreadlord so he could have a chance to escape Barovia. If you want to add in this whole "sealed darkness" thing, then by all means do so, it sounds like you put in proper thought for it, but it may well be already there if you look into what the setting already has to offer. Strahd needs a soul of greater or equal evil and hubris to take his place and inherit his curse. The Dark Powers of Ravenloft may be be the thing trying to seep into the prime material plane, and may be hoping to do so by riding Strahd's coattails. Maybe the churches aren't literal seals, but their destruction makes your blood hunter the cathartic key to Strahd's and the Dark Powers' true release by corrupting him into the next dreadlord. If Strahd can find things for the bloodhunter to further desecrate, it may work.
Wither he's killed outright as for the terror he's brought or he's salvaged by Strahd's instrest, the character's fate needs to be consistent with his actions. The majority of Ravenloft's appeal is the deadliness that constantly surrounds the players. To downplay that deadliness by ignoring consequences of your character's choices (especially choices like burning bastions of hope for the superstitious and terrorized locals) will deflate the atmosphere of the game.
Your response highlights one of my shortcomings as a DM and one I mean to work on. The world isn't static it should always be moving and evolving based on what the characters choose to do. This is especially relevant in CoS as your characters are stuck in a pocket dimension. The last sessions ended with the Blood Hunter looking back into Valaki trying to figure out a way back to burn down the church. The party was in a confrontation with Izek and some guards as they helped rictavio escape the town. Rictavio had to run because the groups warlock thought it would be fun to release his saber toothed tiger and then make it invisible... I've always read don't Punish your characters for their actions, don't say no say yes but by Pelor do they make it difficult sometimes.
Up to this point I've had the Martikovs and other wereravens leading the party along the road to Vallaki, they even warned them that the Vistanni were not to be trusted. However I do think you're on to something maybe the ravens will continue to help the rest of the party on the grounds they either abandon the Blood Hunter or at the very least leave him outside kind of deal... however when he's alone mischief happens.
Their ally whom they know where to find they just haven't yet is good ol Mord the mad mage.The artifacts are in the amber temple, wizard o wines, and argynvostholt.
I thought even if Strahd was keen on someone he ended up deciding they wouldn't work in the end.
I use the "Hope Counter" variant of Curse of Strahd.
For the characters to leave they have to defeat Strahd. However, this is Strahd's realm so they can't just waltz in and beat him up. They have to weaken him by driving back the despair and gloom in Barovia. Every time the characters do something positive (like placing Rose and Thorn's bodies in their crypts), the Hope Counter goes up, as the characters' actions increase the light in Barovia, driving away the dark. If the Hope Counter is below a preset threshold then Strahd is unbeatable, regardless of the PCs' levels and magic items and class features.
Burning down a church sounds like something that would *lower* the Hope Counter.
That's a neat idea as well, is there a place to find more information on this Hope Counter or is that something you've come up with. Also at this point don't you think its almost too late for the party. TO be fair the parties Cleric did entomb Rose and Thorn laying their spirits to rest. Also the gunsmith saved lady watchers daughter (the cat girl) from the burning house.
I wouldn't say too late as much as super unlikely. There are plenty of events the characters could trigger to "undo" the harm they brought by burning the churches. Maybe somehow outing the Abbot and santifying the Abbey again would help, or Lightning the Beacon of Arganvost. Maybe killing off some of the more terrible foes, like Baba Lysaga or Wintersplinter, would counter the negativity. It's possible, but your players will really be putting their necks out to do so.
Here's an idea my former DM used to both guide players and build on the Hope Meter idea. My character saw St. Anderal's church destroyed by Strahd, and formed a friendship with Father Lucien before he was killed. Before leaving town, I interred his body where St. Anderal's bones once were. Doing so, Father Lucian revealed himself in spirit form to be St. Anderal reincarnated. Though trapped by the mists from entering the afterlife, he and other saints and pure souls still avoided the typical limbo most experiance in between lives in Barovia. Essentially, it was the DM's way of rewarding my roleplaying as well as providing us with a more upfront guide to point us in the right direction. His bones sanctified the church even after St. Anderal's Feast, my character started taking Paladino levels, and we were set straight.
Maybe using a guide like this to subtly introduce the idea that hope is the answer (as well as hint at the looming threat of the greater darkness sealed away) could be just what the doctor ordered. You may even be able to use this as a way the make that rowdy bloodhunter receive a divine scolding for his zealous ways, potentially curbing that problem as well. There are plenty of good souls to use as this guide (Markovia, Lugdana, maybe even Sergi if he doesn't mention his name) and you could place it anywhere.
I need some of your infinite wisdom fellow DM's.
My party is currently on their way through the campaign, we've had the Tarot reading and they just transported Ireena to Vallaki. One of my players is playing a Blood hunter and is having fun with quelling heresy. I thought in the start this would just be undead and the like... I was wrong... Because the priest in the church in Barovia was keeping his son locked up in the basement as a vampire he apparently had dirty hands in the blood hunters eyes... after several attempts to dissuade him he set fire to the church.... then came the church in Vallaki...
My question is what do you do?
I sent a text to the other PC's telling them that maybe they were becoming suspect of the things the blood hunter was doing. To the Blood Hunter I said that he felt compelled to continue burning down these churches.
My half baked idea would be to add a church in Krezk so he can burn that one down, then after they kill strahd if they manage to do that. Have something along the lines of a bigger bad appear (Stahd and the 3 churches were essentially seals looking this thing away.) Strahd wasn't evil he got himself turned into a vampire so he could forever make sure this bigger bad remained locked away.
What should this bigger bad be and is this even a good idea???
Have you read about who / what "The Abbot" is in the Abbey of Saint Markovia in Krezk? Beef him up a little and that guy could be the new bigger bad guy, for sure.
Alternatively, what about locking an avatar of a Great Old One away inside The Amber Temple, or using the Lich that's already there?
That being said, I can't speak for you or your players, but my own personal feelings is that this isn't a great way to end the campaign. Are you familiar with Dragon Ball Z? Basically, the story archs are practically identical where, for some reason, there's always one more bad guy who's bigger, badder, and stronger than the previous one. I understand that some people do enjoy that kind of story, but I personally do not. If throughout the campaign Strahd was the primary antagonist, I defeat him, and then the story suddenly changes to, "actually he was a guardian against a greater evil--now you have to fight it." I'd probably walk out. Again, that's just me.
I think you're on the right track here though and I hope this was helpful.
I agree with what you say about DBZ being frustrating in that it just a constant oh look here is another guy who is stronger than the last on repeat cycle. I really don't want it to be the case here, I just think there should be some consequence for the actions of my PC who's burning down the churches. Right now as far as the party knows Barovia has fallen to some unknown force with the loss of the churches holy protection there.
Little side note I replaced the Lich in the Amber Temple with a beholder, knowing my players they would just kill the poor powerless lich anyway. Plus I've wanted to use a beholder on them for awhile now.
What do you think about this, the party defeats Strahd and the mists clear allowing the party to leave. However one of the characters has a dream of something stirring in Barovia after them being gone a few years. That's when a previously blank page of the Tome of Strahd has writing on it describing some locked away something.
That’s definitely a cool way to do it, I think. Although, that sounds like the kickoff to an entirely new campaign/mini-adventure. Is that intentional? To me, it seems like the Blood Hunter’s consequence could either be a far reaching threat, like what you’ve mentioned, or a newly formed complication to the current adventure. Along that line of thinking, here’s my input:
The party arrives in Krezk and the Blood Hunter eventually burns down the Abbey of Saint Markovia. After doing so, The Abbott approaches and informs them that Barovia is like a reservoir of terrible shadow magic and the churches plus Strahd have been the stone dam keeping it all in Barovia. With the churches gone, the dam is cracked and leaking--now, if you defeat Strahd, the mists will clear and the dam will surely break, thus flooding the material plane and plaguing it with all kinds of manifestations of Barovia’s evil shadows. What are they going to do now?
Currently I think the plan is to jump into the dragon heist campaign once it releases, so I'm the filler campaign til then. My party still has yet to seek out the 3 items for strahds downfall and they haven't found their Helpful NPC yet either so we have some time. I like your idea alot, a common complaint I've heard with the pre con adventures is once its done those characters just sit there, so I think my party would really like having a looming issue to go back to and continue on their adventure. Maybe they are holding back an Ancient One ( I believe that's what it was called in the DMsguild) and this Ancient One as the "seals" are broken things begin to twist, and when strahd is finally defeated the characters return to the material plane to a twisted landscape ruled now by said Ancient One. Though as you mentioned before it kind of feels like the DBZ scenario... who knew one player could cause such a headache.
I had similar happenings. My players burned Old Bonegrinder after being cast out by Morgantha. Rather than fight, the witches polymorphed and escaped while the players trundled on to Vallaki. Now, I'm having them deal with consequences of their actions. The whole town saw the smoke, and panick is mounting as citizens fear the hags descending on their town, stealing children and sowing madness. Though there's no proof it was them, the ever xenophobic Vallakians suspect the three long-earred outsiders that arrived at the eastern gate shortly after smoke was sighted are responsible. Commoners are avoiding them outright, making intel gathering nearly impossible. Rictavio, due to his elven appearance, is also cast under suspicion, and may leave town earlier than planned without revealing himself to such foolish adventurers. Even the Martikovs, currently under siege by the hags and druids under Baba Lysaga, are slow to trust and unwilling to help those that would incur their wrath and attack those who aid them. The burgomaster will be keeping Izek close to them and Lady Watcher hopes to use the distrust towards the party as a point of proof that they need her help like she needs theirs. All due to a single windmill going up in flame.
Consequences happen when extreme measures are taken. If the blood hunter razes the Abbey of Saint Markovia, the Abbot would destroy him. He was sent to honor the abbey after the saint's death and the church's destruction, as well as the murder of the Abbot's creations, would bring a fury down on him that none of your players would survive. He's a CR 10 for crying out loud. He could kill the bloodhunter with time enough to put out the flames I bet.
I hate to say it, but his character is disturbing too much in Barovia to be tolerated by the frightened townspeople. I can see getting away with burning the church in Barovia, but if the party wasn't driven from Vallaki after burning St. Anderal's by pitchforks and pikes, they frankly should've. And furthermore, news of this would probably ban them from entering Krezk under any circumstances. The wereravens would see the adventurers as destroyers of peace and abandon them. I'm not saying he's a bad player or doing wrong by any means, but when your character is that extreme and destructive by nature, you're asking to get ganked in a campaign setting like this.
However, perhaps Strahd sees this as something he could use. Perhaps the bloodhunter's zeal for cleansing could be turned on the rest of the party, or on the NPC ally from the card reading, or even on the hunter himself. Strahd would use him to eliminate the party, or at least sow discord among them, until his usefulness ends. Then, he'd be killed outright. If your player manages to NOT burn St. Markovia's and die at the hands of a corrupt celestial, I'd have Strahd craft schemes for that player. Either he's manipulated to work in Strahd's plans, or he realizes he's been targeted for his dark acts that he thought was pure and just (much like the Abbot himself). Could turn into a cool arch.
Don't forget, one of Strahd's goals is to find someone to take his place as dreadlord so he could have a chance to escape Barovia. If you want to add in this whole "sealed darkness" thing, then by all means do so, it sounds like you put in proper thought for it, but it may well be already there if you look into what the setting already has to offer. Strahd needs a soul of greater or equal evil and hubris to take his place and inherit his curse. The Dark Powers of Ravenloft may be be the thing trying to seep into the prime material plane, and may be hoping to do so by riding Strahd's coattails. Maybe the churches aren't literal seals, but their destruction makes your blood hunter the cathartic key to Strahd's and the Dark Powers' true release by corrupting him into the next dreadlord. If Strahd can find things for the bloodhunter to further desecrate, it may work.
Wither he's killed outright as for the terror he's brought or he's salvaged by Strahd's instrest, the character's fate needs to be consistent with his actions. The majority of Ravenloft's appeal is the deadliness that constantly surrounds the players. To downplay that deadliness by ignoring consequences of your character's choices (especially choices like burning bastions of hope for the superstitious and terrorized locals) will deflate the atmosphere of the game.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
Your response highlights one of my shortcomings as a DM and one I mean to work on. The world isn't static it should always be moving and evolving based on what the characters choose to do. This is especially relevant in CoS as your characters are stuck in a pocket dimension. The last sessions ended with the Blood Hunter looking back into Valaki trying to figure out a way back to burn down the church. The party was in a confrontation with Izek and some guards as they helped rictavio escape the town. Rictavio had to run because the groups warlock thought it would be fun to release his saber toothed tiger and then make it invisible... I've always read don't Punish your characters for their actions, don't say no say yes but by Pelor do they make it difficult sometimes.
Up to this point I've had the Martikovs and other wereravens leading the party along the road to Vallaki, they even warned them that the Vistanni were not to be trusted. However I do think you're on to something maybe the ravens will continue to help the rest of the party on the grounds they either abandon the Blood Hunter or at the very least leave him outside kind of deal... however when he's alone mischief happens.
Their ally whom they know where to find they just haven't yet is good ol Mord the mad mage.The artifacts are in the amber temple, wizard o wines, and argynvostholt.
I thought even if Strahd was keen on someone he ended up deciding they wouldn't work in the end.
I use the "Hope Counter" variant of Curse of Strahd.
For the characters to leave they have to defeat Strahd. However, this is Strahd's realm so they can't just waltz in and beat him up. They have to weaken him by driving back the despair and gloom in Barovia. Every time the characters do something positive (like placing Rose and Thorn's bodies in their crypts), the Hope Counter goes up, as the characters' actions increase the light in Barovia, driving away the dark. If the Hope Counter is below a preset threshold then Strahd is unbeatable, regardless of the PCs' levels and magic items and class features.
Burning down a church sounds like something that would *lower* the Hope Counter.
That's a neat idea as well, is there a place to find more information on this Hope Counter or is that something you've come up with. Also at this point don't you think its almost too late for the party. TO be fair the parties Cleric did entomb Rose and Thorn laying their spirits to rest. Also the gunsmith saved lady watchers daughter (the cat girl) from the burning house.
I wouldn't say too late as much as super unlikely. There are plenty of events the characters could trigger to "undo" the harm they brought by burning the churches. Maybe somehow outing the Abbot and santifying the Abbey again would help, or Lightning the Beacon of Arganvost. Maybe killing off some of the more terrible foes, like Baba Lysaga or Wintersplinter, would counter the negativity. It's possible, but your players will really be putting their necks out to do so.
Here's an idea my former DM used to both guide players and build on the Hope Meter idea. My character saw St. Anderal's church destroyed by Strahd, and formed a friendship with Father Lucien before he was killed. Before leaving town, I interred his body where St. Anderal's bones once were. Doing so, Father Lucian revealed himself in spirit form to be St. Anderal reincarnated. Though trapped by the mists from entering the afterlife, he and other saints and pure souls still avoided the typical limbo most experiance in between lives in Barovia. Essentially, it was the DM's way of rewarding my roleplaying as well as providing us with a more upfront guide to point us in the right direction. His bones sanctified the church even after St. Anderal's Feast, my character started taking Paladino levels, and we were set straight.
Maybe using a guide like this to subtly introduce the idea that hope is the answer (as well as hint at the looming threat of the greater darkness sealed away) could be just what the doctor ordered. You may even be able to use this as a way the make that rowdy bloodhunter receive a divine scolding for his zealous ways, potentially curbing that problem as well. There are plenty of good souls to use as this guide (Markovia, Lugdana, maybe even Sergi if he doesn't mention his name) and you could place it anywhere.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
From an ENWorld forum on Enhancing Curse of Strahd.