Hello! So, i'm thinking about DMing for the first time in a homebrew setting, and I got an idea. You know how every story has a BBEG? Well, I thought that I would love to be one. So, I want to give my players that choice as well. I was going to put in a spoiler that if they want to be the secret BBEG, they could PM me. Is that a good idea, Or is it horrible?
Well from what I understand you wanna give your players the option to be a villain? If so, and it's your first time. Then don't. I made like 21 papers of prepped story for my first time and I used 2. The rest I could just throw away. Not a problem for me it went better than I thought it would, but for others... sometimes it can be scary. I've worked on a homebrew world for about 2 and a half years (ish). For a different game mind you but I'm thinking of just making the world first and then after I can go do other shit for it but trust me... Start small if you are going for that. I start just writing the gods. And slowly over time I had more and more. I'm not even 20% in! So start small. Have a lot more planned out than usual.. and be brave. But if I have to be honest, if it's your first time DMing, don't homebrew too much. It's okay to railroad players a bit if you don't want them wandering off all the time. Later on when you got the hang of it you can start having multible quest hooks ready, maybe even plan some of it out for them too. Yeah. I think that's about all I can say without saying the same thing with different words so: Good Luck! I look forward to hearing from you! ^^
It's neither a good, or bad, idea in an of itself - it's a question as to how your group would feel about it, and about the group dynamics.
How will your player group respond when one of them betrays the Party?
If you open up the possibility to all Players ( "Hey guys, any of you PM me if you want to be the campaigns secret villain" ) is the party likely to be paranoid, suspicious, and far less cooperative because someone could be the campaign's main villain? This also kind of takes the dramatic punch out of the big reveal if they all know it's a possibility from the beginning.
In theory, only you could answer those questions - but as you're a new DM, with a new campaign, I don't think even you are likely to know yet.
I think you need to judge whether the risks ( party suspicion, and Players acting badly to betrayal ) are worth the dramatic impact.
But it's not a horrible idea. I know Matt Colville used the idea in one of his campaigns, when it turns out that one of the players had been playing a Slaad impersonator character - something the Party discovered when they rescued the real character.
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I ran a long campaign where one of the PCs was working for the BBEG. I had fun working it out with the PC; the PC had fun being secretly working against the party, but ultimately the rest of the party didn't have fun with the experience. They were not on board for that kind of gameplay. They wanted to be adventurers out saving the world from evil without having to be suspicious of their own party members. Honestly, if I was a player in the group rather than the DM, I probably would have felt the same. I don't want to have to worry about the motivations of one of the characters I'm trusting with my life. That's not fun for me, nor was it fun for the rest of the people involved. In the end, I wish I had asked the party if they were okay with having an evil party member betraying the party be a possibility. They would have said no, and I would have worked with the PC to come up with a different, non-evil concept. If they had said yes, making sure that everyone was on board with the idea ahead of time would have absolutely been worth slightly spoiling the dramatic impact of the reveal.
I'd strongly recommend against doing this, especially because this is your first time DMing in a homebrew setting. You'll have a lot of things to figure out as it is, and dealing with a non-traditional party make-up can make your job harder and the experience less fun for everyone involved. I for one, am running my first low-level, tropey campaign in D&D 5e. Killing goblins, fighting dragons, and exploring dungeons has been a blast for everyone involved. Don't reinvent the wheel. There's a lot of fun to be found in a traditional D&D campaign.
I'd recommend against as your first time, especially if you want to tell the players. Would be a weird game of clue. If you dont tell the players, I'd go with it. Especially if you can manipulate it to where your BBEG doesnt even realize it.
If you can target out a single player who would have fun with it and you know the group would be, I'd roll with it for a test to see how they'd react for future campaigns.
Currently DMing a game where my cleric from a curse of strahd game betrayed the party and became the BBEG of this home brew. I approached my DM from that setting to see if he would allow that set up. He agreed and my party honestly wasnt surprised as this was my third character in that game, with the first killing a party member and the second leaving them.
I'd also strongly recommend against this idea. It can be fun for a one off type of experience but it breaks the fundamental element of trust that is usually present in a party.
Incorporating this kind of secret often sounds cool to the DM and the player involved but in my experience almost always works out badly in practice. The larger the plot builds the bad guy, the more challenging, the more outcomes that rely on the party actions ... the bigger the impact of the betrayal when the party member reveals themselves. This kind of event can and does lead to real life friendships being disrupted since although folks are playing the characters in the game ... they are ultimately trusting the PLAYERs statements and there are lots of people who, after investing large amounts of time developing their character and the relationships within the party may feel almost as betrayed as if a friend made such a betrayal in real life as the character in the game.
This may not seem like a reasonable reaction to the DM and the player who is working for the bad guy since they have factored this in to how they are playing ... but for everyone else in the game it can be a very disruptive surprise with the minimum response likely being the dissolution of the party ... maybe if the other players get a chance to eliminate the offending character it might blow off some steam .. however, usually, the plot device works in such a way that player character automatically escapes thus increasing the betrayal and sense of failure felt by the other players. The second response is typically that the other players will be much less inclined to ever trust the DM and the other player again ... certainly in a game and sometimes in real life. (the reasoning being that if they could conceal and carry out a long term betrayal in a game they are likely capable of doing the same in real life).
I don't say any of this makes sense and your players may not react this way but there are players who do and especially as a first time DM ... this is likely one idea that you will probably want to avoid at least for now.
P.S. This kind of thing can work out if there is sufficient foreshadowing. If the character played by the bad guy in the party occasionally behaves in suspicious ways or gives the party reasons to suspect or doubt them ... then the point where they openly change sides becomes less of a surprise. However, depending on what the foreshadowing consists of, an insightful party might choose to kick them out earlier than your plot might want that to happen ... if the player then states they are innocent and that they are misinterpreting things and the character should remain in the party ... the players then believe the PLAYER and not the character .. which sets up the problem again. It can be done but it is a bit of a tightrope to do properly.
The most I can say on this is that I'm running Waterdeep: Dragon Heist where three out of four became Gray Hands. The remaining one? A Zhent, secretly.
He may betray the party in the end and call in the Doom Raiders. But that's his choice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
This is a wonderful idea and can make a most memorable adventure/campaign. I encourage you to go for it. With one caveat. If you know your players well enough, choose the one most likely to take on the role AND be the best at pulling it off and ask only them. If yes, then have a blast. If not, then I would save it for another time. My brother took on the role of baddy betrayer in another RPG game's adventure I was running and none of the others saw it coming. Their trusted friend turned on them. Seeing the reactions of the others made the whole game for us. And having the plot turn on its head made the whole game for them. It went very well.
As mentioned above, if everybody sees it coming, you run the chance of grinding your adventure to a halt before it even gets through the gate.
I voted no. this idea, although literary gold, takes away player agency.
I recommend you try a BBEG that manipulates and attempts to pit players against players. this allows a PC to have agency without necessarily limiting another player's
a green dragon brides the dwarf to look the other way while the elfs village is harrassed. then hires the elf to steal back the bribe. then the green dragon frames the dwarf for murder of an elflady etc etc. the point being the BBEG is not limited to the dragon, the players can, in theory, side with the dragon to fight each other, or unite to fight the dragon or ...other. when you pick the PC to be the BBEG the story just doesn't flow
I would also advise caution on this. I did have a player, who, whilst not the BBEG, when that player left the party I made them into the BBEG, once it became obvious they weren't coming back anyway.
Pitting player against player as Gigaflop says is the best way, and makes for some great drama, you just need to make sure the BBEG or their minions have good reason for being able to manipulate a given player.
It could be amazing, but as above posts point out when you rely on another to drive your campaigns 'evil plan' (because they have to have free reign to some extent or they may just as well be an npc.) then you can be derailed.
However there are other options that can work. Have a campaign villain. (obviously more powerful than the starting players) As the party proceeds through the adventures if some act in ways that are just as dark or tyrannical as the big V's then keep an eye on them. Subtle messages or tests can make players reveal how they want to play. From there you can try overt tests - capture the lieutenant of evil (LoE) or rescue the hostage / stop the fire / other. The party could split up and do both and if they do then its a great opportunity for the LoE to offer bribes to let them escape, or worse overcome the reduced numbers and deliberately leave them alive - as they fade in and out of consciousness leaning in, bandaging a wound they have and whispering 'Stay alive, grow strong, the plan needs you, we need you.' before leaving will allow foreshadowing later that the party member is 'wanted'. The best part with this is it could be a horrible bluff - for one the party may be wary of their companion now, for another I have, after using this method had a player assume they were too valuable to die and walk alone into a crossfire. Regardless the LoE will be more likely to be taken alive if defeated now if only to gather information from, or because they granted mercy. In defeat your big V can be revealed to have motivations for doing what they did that the party or sections of them can empathise with. Big V's death leading to a power vacuum or 'power group' they held in check will mean the party will now need to fight a new threat they know nothing about and may not have time to learn... unless... unless they take control of the Big V's organisation.
At a pivot point the party might go dark or enough to begin a conflict that will break them when you go down these paths - if your group are likely to hold grudges then dont even consider this - party fights are terrible more often than good, and the dead characters rerolling as assassins and killing who they died to in their sleep is a game, fun and time waste.
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Hello! So, i'm thinking about DMing for the first time in a homebrew setting, and I got an idea. You know how every story has a BBEG? Well, I thought that I would love to be one. So, I want to give my players that choice as well. I was going to put in a spoiler that if they want to be the secret BBEG, they could PM me. Is that a good idea, Or is it horrible?
Thank you,
Me.
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Well from what I understand you wanna give your players the option to be a villain?
If so, and it's your first time. Then don't. I made like 21 papers of prepped story for my first time and I used 2. The rest I could just throw away. Not a problem for me it went better than I thought it would, but for others... sometimes it can be scary. I've worked on a homebrew world for about 2 and a half years (ish). For a different game mind you but I'm thinking of just making the world first and then after I can go do other shit for it but trust me... Start small if you are going for that. I start just writing the gods. And slowly over time I had more and more. I'm not even 20% in! So start small. Have a lot more planned out than usual.. and be brave. But if I have to be honest, if it's your first time DMing, don't homebrew too much.
It's okay to railroad players a bit if you don't want them wandering off all the time. Later on when you got the hang of it you can start having multible quest hooks ready, maybe even plan some of it out for them too. Yeah. I think that's about all I can say without saying the same thing with different words so: Good Luck! I look forward to hearing from you! ^^
-Daergiel
It's an interesting idea - but it's tricky.
It's neither a good, or bad, idea in an of itself - it's a question as to how your group would feel about it, and about the group dynamics.
How will your player group respond when one of them betrays the Party?
If you open up the possibility to all Players ( "Hey guys, any of you PM me if you want to be the campaigns secret villain" ) is the party likely to be paranoid, suspicious, and far less cooperative because someone could be the campaign's main villain? This also kind of takes the dramatic punch out of the big reveal if they all know it's a possibility from the beginning.
In theory, only you could answer those questions - but as you're a new DM, with a new campaign, I don't think even you are likely to know yet.
I think you need to judge whether the risks ( party suspicion, and Players acting badly to betrayal ) are worth the dramatic impact.
But it's not a horrible idea. I know Matt Colville used the idea in one of his campaigns, when it turns out that one of the players had been playing a Slaad impersonator character - something the Party discovered when they rescued the real character.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I ran a long campaign where one of the PCs was working for the BBEG. I had fun working it out with the PC; the PC had fun being secretly working against the party, but ultimately the rest of the party didn't have fun with the experience. They were not on board for that kind of gameplay. They wanted to be adventurers out saving the world from evil without having to be suspicious of their own party members. Honestly, if I was a player in the group rather than the DM, I probably would have felt the same. I don't want to have to worry about the motivations of one of the characters I'm trusting with my life. That's not fun for me, nor was it fun for the rest of the people involved. In the end, I wish I had asked the party if they were okay with having an evil party member betraying the party be a possibility. They would have said no, and I would have worked with the PC to come up with a different, non-evil concept. If they had said yes, making sure that everyone was on board with the idea ahead of time would have absolutely been worth slightly spoiling the dramatic impact of the reveal.
I'd strongly recommend against doing this, especially because this is your first time DMing in a homebrew setting. You'll have a lot of things to figure out as it is, and dealing with a non-traditional party make-up can make your job harder and the experience less fun for everyone involved. I for one, am running my first low-level, tropey campaign in D&D 5e. Killing goblins, fighting dragons, and exploring dungeons has been a blast for everyone involved. Don't reinvent the wheel. There's a lot of fun to be found in a traditional D&D campaign.
Jazz Jungle Japes is Best Jungle Japes
I'd recommend against as your first time, especially if you want to tell the players. Would be a weird game of clue. If you dont tell the players, I'd go with it. Especially if you can manipulate it to where your BBEG doesnt even realize it.
If you can target out a single player who would have fun with it and you know the group would be, I'd roll with it for a test to see how they'd react for future campaigns.
Currently DMing a game where my cleric from a curse of strahd game betrayed the party and became the BBEG of this home brew. I approached my DM from that setting to see if he would allow that set up. He agreed and my party honestly wasnt surprised as this was my third character in that game, with the first killing a party member and the second leaving them.
I'd also strongly recommend against this idea. It can be fun for a one off type of experience but it breaks the fundamental element of trust that is usually present in a party.
Incorporating this kind of secret often sounds cool to the DM and the player involved but in my experience almost always works out badly in practice. The larger the plot builds the bad guy, the more challenging, the more outcomes that rely on the party actions ... the bigger the impact of the betrayal when the party member reveals themselves. This kind of event can and does lead to real life friendships being disrupted since although folks are playing the characters in the game ... they are ultimately trusting the PLAYERs statements and there are lots of people who, after investing large amounts of time developing their character and the relationships within the party may feel almost as betrayed as if a friend made such a betrayal in real life as the character in the game.
This may not seem like a reasonable reaction to the DM and the player who is working for the bad guy since they have factored this in to how they are playing ... but for everyone else in the game it can be a very disruptive surprise with the minimum response likely being the dissolution of the party ... maybe if the other players get a chance to eliminate the offending character it might blow off some steam .. however, usually, the plot device works in such a way that player character automatically escapes thus increasing the betrayal and sense of failure felt by the other players. The second response is typically that the other players will be much less inclined to ever trust the DM and the other player again ... certainly in a game and sometimes in real life. (the reasoning being that if they could conceal and carry out a long term betrayal in a game they are likely capable of doing the same in real life).
I don't say any of this makes sense and your players may not react this way but there are players who do and especially as a first time DM ... this is likely one idea that you will probably want to avoid at least for now.
P.S. This kind of thing can work out if there is sufficient foreshadowing. If the character played by the bad guy in the party occasionally behaves in suspicious ways or gives the party reasons to suspect or doubt them ... then the point where they openly change sides becomes less of a surprise. However, depending on what the foreshadowing consists of, an insightful party might choose to kick them out earlier than your plot might want that to happen ... if the player then states they are innocent and that they are misinterpreting things and the character should remain in the party ... the players then believe the PLAYER and not the character .. which sets up the problem again. It can be done but it is a bit of a tightrope to do properly.
The most I can say on this is that I'm running Waterdeep: Dragon Heist where three out of four became Gray Hands. The remaining one? A Zhent, secretly.
He may betray the party in the end and call in the Doom Raiders. But that's his choice.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
This is a wonderful idea and can make a most memorable adventure/campaign. I encourage you to go for it. With one caveat. If you know your players well enough, choose the one most likely to take on the role AND be the best at pulling it off and ask only them. If yes, then have a blast. If not, then I would save it for another time. My brother took on the role of baddy betrayer in another RPG game's adventure I was running and none of the others saw it coming. Their trusted friend turned on them. Seeing the reactions of the others made the whole game for us. And having the plot turn on its head made the whole game for them. It went very well.
As mentioned above, if everybody sees it coming, you run the chance of grinding your adventure to a halt before it even gets through the gate.
Thank you.
ChrisW
Ones are righteous. And one day, we just might believe it.
I voted no. this idea, although literary gold, takes away player agency.
I recommend you try a BBEG that manipulates and attempts to pit players against players. this allows a PC to have agency without necessarily limiting another player's
a green dragon brides the dwarf to look the other way while the elfs village is harrassed. then hires the elf to steal back the bribe. then the green dragon frames the dwarf for murder of an elflady etc etc. the point being the BBEG is not limited to the dragon, the players can, in theory, side with the dragon to fight each other, or unite to fight the dragon or ...other. when you pick the PC to be the BBEG the story just doesn't flow
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I would also advise caution on this. I did have a player, who, whilst not the BBEG, when that player left the party I made them into the BBEG, once it became obvious they weren't coming back anyway.
Pitting player against player as Gigaflop says is the best way, and makes for some great drama, you just need to make sure the BBEG or their minions have good reason for being able to manipulate a given player.
It could be amazing, but as above posts point out when you rely on another to drive your campaigns 'evil plan' (because they have to have free reign to some extent or they may just as well be an npc.) then you can be derailed.
However there are other options that can work. Have a campaign villain. (obviously more powerful than the starting players) As the party proceeds through the adventures if some act in ways that are just as dark or tyrannical as the big V's then keep an eye on them. Subtle messages or tests can make players reveal how they want to play. From there you can try overt tests - capture the lieutenant of evil (LoE) or rescue the hostage / stop the fire / other. The party could split up and do both and if they do then its a great opportunity for the LoE to offer bribes to let them escape, or worse overcome the reduced numbers and deliberately leave them alive - as they fade in and out of consciousness leaning in, bandaging a wound they have and whispering 'Stay alive, grow strong, the plan needs you, we need you.' before leaving will allow foreshadowing later that the party member is 'wanted'. The best part with this is it could be a horrible bluff - for one the party may be wary of their companion now, for another I have, after using this method had a player assume they were too valuable to die and walk alone into a crossfire. Regardless the LoE will be more likely to be taken alive if defeated now if only to gather information from, or because they granted mercy. In defeat your big V can be revealed to have motivations for doing what they did that the party or sections of them can empathise with. Big V's death leading to a power vacuum or 'power group' they held in check will mean the party will now need to fight a new threat they know nothing about and may not have time to learn... unless... unless they take control of the Big V's organisation.
At a pivot point the party might go dark or enough to begin a conflict that will break them when you go down these paths - if your group are likely to hold grudges then dont even consider this - party fights are terrible more often than good, and the dead characters rerolling as assassins and killing who they died to in their sleep is a game, fun and time waste.