I don't see anything in the rules for swarms that say they don't get an attack of opportunity, so they will use the same rules as any monster:
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.
Swarms have a range of 5ft, so a character can move out of the same square/hex that the swarm is in, to an adjacent square/hex without leaving the swarm's reach.
Indeed, and the only swarm with a non-zero reach says "reach 5 ft., one target in the swarm's space". That doesn't make any sense, I suspect that is supposed to be 0ft also, if it must target its own space...
Could you please include link to Swarm Rules because I cannot find them outside of a few homebrew rules that I have seen on the internet. Are they in UA? Thank you.
It should be a trait in each Swarm's stat block, like swarm of insects
Swarm. The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and the swarm can move through any opening large enough for a Tiny insect. The swarm can't regain hit points or gain temporary hit points.
And then the reach you can get from its attacks:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 0 ft., one target in the swarm's space. Hit: 10 (4d4) piercing damage, or 5 (2d4) piercing damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
Thanks. I was hoping that maybe they had just published a template with guidelines for any creature that you wanted to handle as a Swarm. I guess the guidelines must be inferred from the examples given in the Monster Manual.
Yeah I too had questions about creating swarms of a creature type. Are there rules on creating swarms from various monsters listed in the Monster Manual? They have examples, but what if I want to create a swarm of crabs? How do I alter the original creatures stat block to create a swarm? A single crab has an attack bonus of +0 and does 1 bludgeoning damage. How do I adjust this if it's a swarm of crabs? A single bat is (much like a crab) +0 attack bonus and 1 damage, but a swarm has +3 attack bonus and does 2d4 piercing damage. How did they get that number? If a bat (or a crab) is a 0 CR creature, how does that change if it's a swarm of 1/4 CR creatures? 1 CR? etc. I can't find any info on how those numbers were determined (as in the AB of a swarm vs. the single creature, or the damage dice of a swarm vs. a single creature). Anyone?
So in 5th Edition you can attack a swarm normally? I don't see anything in the swarm description that says otherwise.
That is a significant loss of power from swarms in 3.5E. While in 5E swarms do more damage, in 3.5E after they entered the same hex (which provoked attacks of opportunity but usually wan't a big issue because of their other traits) it was auto hit each turn (which makes sense since the little critters can get into the nooks and crannies of your armor) and, most importantly, regular weapons did not do any damage to tiny swarms (which also makes sense - how effective will a long sword be against a cloud of mosquito?). You needed to use either fire or any attack that did not target a single target.
This is what made classes like the Warlock, who got access to Summon Swarm at early levels, so powerful.
So in 5th Edition you can attack a swarm normally? I don't see anything in the swarm description that says otherwise.
That is a significant loss of power from swarms in 3.5E. While in 5E swarms do more damage, in 3.5E after they entered the same hex (which provoked attacks of opportunity but usually wan't a big issue because of their other traits) it was auto hit each turn (which makes sense since the little critters can get into the nooks and crannies of your armor) and, most importantly, regular weapons did not do any damage to tiny swarms (which also makes sense - how effective will a long sword be against a cloud of mosquito?). You needed to use either fire or any attack that did not target a single target.
This is what made classes like the Warlock, who got access to Summon Swarm at early levels, so powerful.
Look at the resistances and condition immunities of these swarms in the MM.
Swarm. The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa , and the swarm can move through any opening large enough for a Tiny insect. The swarm can't regain hit points or gain temporary hit points.
ACTIONS:
Bites. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 0 ft., one target in the swarm's space. Hit: 10 (4d4) piercing damage, or 5 (2d4) piercing damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
So as far as I can see due to the Damage Resistance it will take twice as much attack damage to kill the swarm but you can do it with ordinary weapons. Yes, a fighter with a longsword can apparently rush into a swarm of insects and chop them to death (at half his regular damage).
In addition to that the swarm has to roll hits to attack as opposed to automatically hitting. Assuming the number of creatures in a swarm is similar to the counts used in 3.5E then I don't understand how, if you have hundreds of insects within the same space as a creature, the insects could miss. Agreed they would not ALL hit so the damage should be lower but it should be, in my opinion, an automatic hit like it was in 3.5E.
Maybe the intention is that once the swarm is in the foe's space that foe can't attack the swarm with most weapons because only close combat weapons can be used? Since the swarm reach is probably 0' the foe would provoke attacks of opportunity moving out of the space in order to be able to make a normal attack?
But there is a significant indicator that Swarms have been made much less dangerous in 5E. The 5E challenge rating of Swarm of Insects is CR1/2. Looking at other 5E swarms most of them are under CR1. Yes, there is one with CR1 and even one with CR2 but the majority are CR1/2 or even CR1/4. In 3.5E Swarms start as CR1 and go up to CR8.
That would be significantly different counts than swarms from 3.5. In 3.5 a swarm of tiny creatures were about 300 non-flying creatures or about 1000 flying creatures.
I am not arguing that 5E swarms are not deadly. I am just saying that they are significantly less deadly as compared to the 3.5E versions where they did 1D6 damage auto hit damage and could not be destroyed unless you have some form of an attack that does not target individual creatures...Which typically low level characters did not have. This caused most swarms to be attacked by torches or lanterns which were improvised weapons and thus the character's attack chances (as compared to their normal attacks). It also typically required characters to pull out such items (wasting rounds) if they were not using such items.
It would seem most attacks on a swarm that were in the same square with a party member couldn't be easily attacked without hurting the party member too? Or, maybe the swarm has partial cover since some of it is behind the party member? Am I missing something? How do others handle this.
Remember that in 5e you don't target a "Square" but instead a creature. For the sake of mechanics, you can safely make an attack or cast a spell that targets the swarm and not the person they are swarming on.
A rogue takes a shoot on a swarm. He makes with Sneak Attack 40 damage with his shortbow +1. Now the swarm is dead. That's the rule mechanic. I can't belive in it. One Arrow can kill a swarm. Where is the error? Other situation, a mage speaks bonefire. Each creature takes 1W6 damage. Why does'nt kill this spell the swarm? I hope you can see my problem. Can you help me?
A rogue takes a shoot on a swarm. He makes with Sneak Attack 40 damage with his shortbow +1. Now the swarm is dead. That's the rule mechanic. I can't belive in it. One Arrow can kill a swarm. Where is the error? Other situation, a mage speaks bonefire. Each creature takes 1W6 damage. Why does'nt kill this spell the swarm? I hope you can see my problem. Can you help me?
Not really, you have to remember that 5e has made the choice to be easy to use/learn even if that means it is less of an accurate simulation.
And thus swarms use the same basic rules as other creatures (because they count as being one single creature). To fix the issue you see would mean that swarms would need to work in a completely different way and that makes the game less simple (which isn't what they intended). Also it would mean that any AOE style attack would kill a swarm pretty much instantly while single target attacks would be close to useless and that would make balancing a lot harder (which also isn't preferred).
A rogue takes a shoot on a swarm. He makes with Sneak Attack 40 damage with his shortbow +1. Now the swarm is dead. That's the rule mechanic. I can't belive in it. One Arrow can kill a swarm. Where is the error? Other situation, a mage speaks bonefire. Each creature takes 1W6 damage. Why does'nt kill this spell the swarm? I hope you can see my problem. Can you help me?
Maybe thinking of the rest of the swarm dispersing when it reaches 0 HP rather than "killed".
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Swarms can occupy the same space as a character. If the character leaves the hex the swarm is in, does the swarm get an opportunity attack?
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I don't see anything in the rules for swarms that say they don't get an attack of opportunity, so they will use the same rules as any monster:
Swarms have a range of 5ft, so a character can move out of the same square/hex that the swarm is in, to an adjacent square/hex without leaving the swarm's reach.
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Most swarms have a reach of 0ft - so yes, leaving the square to move away will incur an OA.
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Indeed, and the only swarm with a non-zero reach says "reach 5 ft., one target in the swarm's space". That doesn't make any sense, I suspect that is supposed to be 0ft also, if it must target its own space...
Oh, oops, my bad - I just did a search on swarm and opened the first result which was Swarm of Ravens.
Trust me to randomly pick the one swarm that's different to all the others and has a 5ft reach.
Thanks for the save. :)
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Could you please include link to Swarm Rules because I cannot find them outside of a few homebrew rules that I have seen on the internet. Are they in UA? Thank you.
It should be a trait in each Swarm's stat block, like swarm of insects
Swarm. The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and the swarm can move through any opening large enough for a Tiny insect. The swarm can't regain hit points or gain temporary hit points.
And then the reach you can get from its attacks:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 0 ft., one target in the swarm's space. Hit: 10 (4d4) piercing damage, or 5 (2d4) piercing damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
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Thanks. I was hoping that maybe they had just published a template with guidelines for any creature that you wanted to handle as a Swarm. I guess the guidelines must be inferred from the examples given in the Monster Manual.
Yeah I too had questions about creating swarms of a creature type. Are there rules on creating swarms from various monsters listed in the Monster Manual? They have examples, but what if I want to create a swarm of crabs? How do I alter the original creatures stat block to create a swarm? A single crab has an attack bonus of +0 and does 1 bludgeoning damage. How do I adjust this if it's a swarm of crabs? A single bat is (much like a crab) +0 attack bonus and 1 damage, but a swarm has +3 attack bonus and does 2d4 piercing damage. How did they get that number? If a bat (or a crab) is a 0 CR creature, how does that change if it's a swarm of 1/4 CR creatures? 1 CR? etc. I can't find any info on how those numbers were determined (as in the AB of a swarm vs. the single creature, or the damage dice of a swarm vs. a single creature). Anyone?
Base the attack and damage off the desired CR rather than the creatures themselves.
So in 5th Edition you can attack a swarm normally? I don't see anything in the swarm description that says otherwise.
That is a significant loss of power from swarms in 3.5E. While in 5E swarms do more damage, in 3.5E after they entered the same hex (which provoked attacks of opportunity but usually wan't a big issue because of their other traits) it was auto hit each turn (which makes sense since the little critters can get into the nooks and crannies of your armor) and, most importantly, regular weapons did not do any damage to tiny swarms (which also makes sense - how effective will a long sword be against a cloud of mosquito?). You needed to use either fire or any attack that did not target a single target.
This is what made classes like the Warlock, who got access to Summon Swarm at early levels, so powerful.
Look at the resistances and condition immunities of these swarms in the MM.
From MM:
SWARM OF INSECTS
Medium swarm of Tiny beasts, unaligned
Armor Class 12 (natural armor) .
Hit Points 22 (5d8) Speed 20ft., climb 20ft.
STR 3 (-4) DEX 13 (+1) CON 10 (+0) INT 1 (-5) WIS 7 (-2) CHA 1 (-5)
Damage Resistances: bludgeoning, piercing, slashing
Condition Immunities: charmed, frightened, paralyzed, petrified, prone, restrained, stunned
Senses: blindsight 10ft., passive Perception 8
Languages: -
Challenge: 1/2 (100 XP)
Swarm. The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa , and the swarm can move through any opening large enough for a Tiny insect. The swarm can't regain hit points or gain temporary hit points.
ACTIONS:
Bites. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 0 ft., one target in the swarm's space. Hit: 10 (4d4) piercing damage, or 5 (2d4) piercing damage if the swarm has half of its hit points or fewer.
So as far as I can see due to the Damage Resistance it will take twice as much attack damage to kill the swarm but you can do it with ordinary weapons. Yes, a fighter with a longsword can apparently rush into a swarm of insects and chop them to death (at half his regular damage).
In addition to that the swarm has to roll hits to attack as opposed to automatically hitting. Assuming the number of creatures in a swarm is similar to the counts used in 3.5E then I don't understand how, if you have hundreds of insects within the same space as a creature, the insects could miss. Agreed they would not ALL hit so the damage should be lower but it should be, in my opinion, an automatic hit like it was in 3.5E.
Maybe the intention is that once the swarm is in the foe's space that foe can't attack the swarm with most weapons because only close combat weapons can be used? Since the swarm reach is probably 0' the foe would provoke attacks of opportunity moving out of the space in order to be able to make a normal attack?
But there is a significant indicator that Swarms have been made much less dangerous in 5E. The 5E challenge rating of Swarm of Insects is CR1/2. Looking at other 5E swarms most of them are under CR1. Yes, there is one with CR1 and even one with CR2 but the majority are CR1/2 or even CR1/4. In 3.5E Swarms start as CR1 and go up to CR8.
I think, most of the swarms are meant to be a couple of dozens rat-sized creatures.
Even the basic Spider has only the tiny size and does 1 + 1d4 poison damage on a bite. For a normal commoner, that spider can be deadly.
Tiny is the same size category as a cat!
That would be significantly different counts than swarms from 3.5. In 3.5 a swarm of tiny creatures were about 300 non-flying creatures or about 1000 flying creatures.
I am not arguing that 5E swarms are not deadly. I am just saying that they are significantly less deadly as compared to the 3.5E versions where they did 1D6 damage auto hit damage and could not be destroyed unless you have some form of an attack that does not target individual creatures...Which typically low level characters did not have. This caused most swarms to be attacked by torches or lanterns which were improvised weapons and thus the character's attack chances (as compared to their normal attacks). It also typically required characters to pull out such items (wasting rounds) if they were not using such items.
It would seem most attacks on a swarm that were in the same square with a party member couldn't be easily attacked without hurting the party member too? Or, maybe the swarm has partial cover since some of it is behind the party member? Am I missing something? How do others handle this.
Remember that in 5e you don't target a "Square" but instead a creature. For the sake of mechanics, you can safely make an attack or cast a spell that targets the swarm and not the person they are swarming on.
a new question
A rogue takes a shoot on a swarm. He makes with Sneak Attack 40 damage with his shortbow +1. Now the swarm is dead.
That's the rule mechanic. I can't belive in it. One Arrow can kill a swarm. Where is the error?
Other situation, a mage speaks bonefire. Each creature takes 1W6 damage. Why does'nt kill this spell the swarm?
I hope you can see my problem. Can you help me?
Not really, you have to remember that 5e has made the choice to be easy to use/learn even if that means it is less of an accurate simulation.
And thus swarms use the same basic rules as other creatures (because they count as being one single creature). To fix the issue you see would mean that swarms would need to work in a completely different way and that makes the game less simple (which isn't what they intended). Also it would mean that any AOE style attack would kill a swarm pretty much instantly while single target attacks would be close to useless and that would make balancing a lot harder (which also isn't preferred).
Maybe thinking of the rest of the swarm dispersing when it reaches 0 HP rather than "killed".