I would like the community’s opinion on a situation that came up during a session.
My group was squaring off against several Invisible Stalkers. One targeted my Cleric, making several Slam attacks. On my turn, I Readied the spell Guiding Bolt with the intention of releasing it the moment the Invisible Stalker strikes, giving me at least a general location to work with (in other words, if the IS attacks from behind with Slam, I direct my spell to target to the Entity that melee attacked me from behind, at disadvantage due to close combat/its invisibility). Now, a great deal of my cleric’s spells specify that you have to see the target in order to cast the spell, but Guiding Bolt does not.
What do you think: Is that a valid move, and I can make the attack at disadvantage, or not?
I agree with the Rat, you can cast it in their direction at disadvantage.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
This has been addressed in at least one sage advice if I recall correctly. As stated above, it is not required to see your target in order to use a spell on them unless the spell specifically says so. That means that you can use guiding bolt to target an invisible stalker (or any other invisible creature for that matter. You'd still have disadvantage due to the stalker being invisible, but the next creature would not since the advantage given by the spell cancels out the disadvantage of the condition.
So I'd say it's a sound, if not intended, strategy to use the spell in this manner :)
actually the glimmering outline would totally negate its invisibility granting full advantage on the next attack.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
actually the glimmering outline would totally negate its invisibility granting full advantage on the next attack.
I think you're confusing it with faerie fire which does precisely that.
Note that FF says: "and the affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible." which GB does not. Game mechanics (such as conditions) are not affected unless specifically called out in the spell.
I would rule that the next attack would have advantage because "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then," and p194 of PHB says, "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." Since you can see the target thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on it, there is no disadvantage to cancel out the advantage.
That being said, I can also see how someone might say that since the Invisible Stalker still has the invisible condition and the invisible condition says, "Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage," that disadvantage is still imposed.
I would rule that the next attack would have advantage because "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then," and p194 of PHB says, "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." Since you can see the target thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on it, there is no disadvantage to cancel out the advantage.
That being said, I can also see how someone might say that since the Invisible Stalker still has the invisible condition and the invisible condition says, "Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage," that disadvantage is still imposed.
I don't think that would break the combat or the spell in those instances. I'm in the second camp since the spell does not address the invisible condition, but hey :P
I would rule that the next attack would have advantage because "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then," and p194 of PHB says, "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." Since you can see the target thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on it, there is no disadvantage to cancel out the advantage.
Guiding Bolt doesn't allow you to see the target though, just produces a mystical light around them. That's very different from Faerie Fire, which literally outlines the target and would allow you to distinguish where all of their limbs and body parts are.
I'm also in camp 2, the dim light helps you hit the invisible creature, but doesnt render it visible. The two instances negate each other and the next attack against the target would be made normally. (Without dis/advantage)
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For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
It says it "Mystical Light Glittering ON the Target." Not around, near, or in the area of. I'd say it makes more sense to me that it works like a temporary Faerie Fire. Either you see the light, thus negating the invisibility and giving advantage, or you don't because the light is invisible with the creature, thus not gaining anything. Just my opinion. I could see it either way.
It is certainly a grey area... ish, for me personally I will treat it as a one round faerie fire, because you know the location of the enemy but either way it is not a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
a creature of your choice within range. [possible targets (so no objects or areas)]
Make a ranged spell attack against the target. [how to cast the spell]
On a hit, the target takes 4d6 radiant damage, [what happens now]
and the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage, [lingering game mechanic effect]
thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then. [flavor text]
Nothing adresses invisibility or any sort of interaction.
Faerie Fire
Each object in a 20-foot cube within range [possible targets]
is outlined in blue, green, or violet light (your choice). [flavor text, basically "how effect is achieved". This could be ignored without breaking game mechanics]
Any creature in the area when the spell is cast is also outlined in light [addition to possible targets]
if it fails a Dexterity saving throw. [condition under which the additional effect happens]
For the duration, objects and affected creatures shed dim light in a 10-foot radius. [additional effect on all targets]
Any attack roll against an affected creature or object has advantage if the attacker can see it, [effect 1, same as "lingering game mechanic effect" in Guiding Bolt]
and the affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible. [effect 2]
I remember Jeremy Crawford mentioning in a Dragon Talk Sage Advice (don't recall which episode) that spells basically exist in a vacuum. Like how burning hands and fireball indicate that "The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried" does not mean that all spells that deal fire damage (like aganazzar's scorcher or dragon's breath) do so. It has to be specified.
Edit: Please note that I don't mean flavor text is useless, I simply mean that these things can be altered easily without altering the game mechanics of the spell. If you change "A flash of light streaks toward" from guiding bolt into "a dark tentacle appears under" the spell would function exactly the same. Same goes if you change or remove "thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then." from guiding bolt.
It says it "Mystical Light Glittering ON the Target." Not around, near, or in the area of.
Again, that still doesn't outline them. You could just see a large blob of light where the creature is. If it were intended to work like Faerie Fire they would've written it that way.
I will note you do not need to ready the spell to cast it. Invisibility is not stealth and while in combat you are already training your senses to find them. This means you still get a sense of where they are : you are aware of them and track sounds, displacement of air and dust, etc. Once aware, unless the creature is sneaking, you can attack them on your turn but you simply have disadvantage. Likewise, unless they take the disengage action, if you are aware of them you still get attacks of opportunity if they move away from you even if they are invisible.
I will note you do not need to ready the spell to cast it. Invisibility is not stealth and while in combat you are already training your senses to find them. This means you still get a sense of where they are : you are aware of them and track sounds, displacement of air and dust, etc. Once aware, unless the creature is sneaking, you can attack them on your turn but you simply have disadvantage. Likewise, unless they take the disengage action, if you are aware of them you still get attacks of opportunity if they move away from you even if they are invisible.
if you are aware of them you still get attacks of opportunity if they move away from you even if they are invisible.
Attacks of opportunity have "you can see" in the rule, so invisibility would count that out.
Opportunity Attacks
In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for a chance to strike an enemy who is fleeing or passing by. Such a strike is called an opportunity attack.
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Ah, well given that the rule doesn't make sense at all I think it's forgivable I forgot it (and I allow AoO on invisible non-stealth enemies because you will be far more aware of an enemy near you than across the room, so makes no sense you could make a ranged attack against somebody invisible but apparently cannot get any sense of them when they're right next to you, oh but there I go applying reality to a game).
Hello!
I would like the community’s opinion on a situation that came up during a session.
My group was squaring off against several Invisible Stalkers. One targeted my Cleric, making several Slam attacks. On my turn, I Readied the spell Guiding Bolt with the intention of releasing it the moment the Invisible Stalker strikes, giving me at least a general location to work with (in other words, if the IS attacks from behind with Slam, I direct my spell to target to the Entity that melee attacked me from behind, at disadvantage due to close combat/its invisibility). Now, a great deal of my cleric’s spells specify that you have to see the target in order to cast the spell, but Guiding Bolt does not.
What do you think: Is that a valid move, and I can make the attack at disadvantage, or not?
If the spell's description doesn't use the words "target" or "that you can see", then you don't need to be able to see the creature to hit it.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I agree with the Rat, you can cast it in their direction at disadvantage.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Thanks for your input! :)
This has been addressed in at least one sage advice if I recall correctly. As stated above, it is not required to see your target in order to use a spell on them unless the spell specifically says so. That means that you can use guiding bolt to target an invisible stalker (or any other invisible creature for that matter. You'd still have disadvantage due to the stalker being invisible, but the next creature would not since the advantage given by the spell cancels out the disadvantage of the condition.
So I'd say it's a sound, if not intended, strategy to use the spell in this manner :)
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
actually the glimmering outline would totally negate its invisibility granting full advantage on the next attack.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I think you're confusing it with faerie fire which does precisely that.
Note that FF says: "and the affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible." which GB does not. Game mechanics (such as conditions) are not affected unless specifically called out in the spell.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I would rule that the next attack would have advantage because "the next attack roll made against this target before the end of your next turn has advantage, thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then," and p194 of PHB says, "When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." Since you can see the target thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on it, there is no disadvantage to cancel out the advantage.
That being said, I can also see how someone might say that since the Invisible Stalker still has the invisible condition and the invisible condition says, "Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage," that disadvantage is still imposed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't think that would break the combat or the spell in those instances. I'm in the second camp since the spell does not address the invisible condition, but hey :P
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Thanks everyone, you gave me a lot to think about! :)
Guiding Bolt doesn't allow you to see the target though, just produces a mystical light around them. That's very different from Faerie Fire, which literally outlines the target and would allow you to distinguish where all of their limbs and body parts are.
I'm also in camp 2, the dim light helps you hit the invisible creature, but doesnt render it visible. The two instances negate each other and the next attack against the target would be made normally. (Without dis/advantage)
For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
It says it "Mystical Light Glittering ON the Target." Not around, near, or in the area of. I'd say it makes more sense to me that it works like a temporary Faerie Fire. Either you see the light, thus negating the invisibility and giving advantage, or you don't because the light is invisible with the creature, thus not gaining anything. Just my opinion. I could see it either way.
It is certainly a grey area... ish, for me personally I will treat it as a one round faerie fire, because you know the location of the enemy but either way it is not a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Well, if we analyse the spells:
Guiding Bolt
Nothing adresses invisibility or any sort of interaction.
Faerie Fire
I remember Jeremy Crawford mentioning in a Dragon Talk Sage Advice (don't recall which episode) that spells basically exist in a vacuum. Like how burning hands and fireball indicate that "The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried" does not mean that all spells that deal fire damage (like aganazzar's scorcher or dragon's breath) do so. It has to be specified.
Edit: Please note that I don't mean flavor text is useless, I simply mean that these things can be altered easily without altering the game mechanics of the spell. If you change "A flash of light streaks toward" from guiding bolt into "a dark tentacle appears under" the spell would function exactly the same. Same goes if you change or remove "thanks to the mystical dim light glittering on the target until then." from guiding bolt.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Again, that still doesn't outline them. You could just see a large blob of light where the creature is. If it were intended to work like Faerie Fire they would've written it that way.
I will note you do not need to ready the spell to cast it. Invisibility is not stealth and while in combat you are already training your senses to find them. This means you still get a sense of where they are : you are aware of them and track sounds, displacement of air and dust, etc. Once aware, unless the creature is sneaking, you can attack them on your turn but you simply have disadvantage. Likewise, unless they take the disengage action, if you are aware of them you still get attacks of opportunity if they move away from you even if they are invisible.
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I think that is a little bit of a stretch.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/14/__trashed-31/
Attacks of opportunity have "you can see" in the rule, so invisibility would count that out.
Opportunity Attacks
In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for a chance to strike an enemy who is fleeing or passing by. Such a strike is called an opportunity attack.
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Ah, well given that the rule doesn't make sense at all I think it's forgivable I forgot it (and I allow AoO on invisible non-stealth enemies because you will be far more aware of an enemy near you than across the room, so makes no sense you could make a ranged attack against somebody invisible but apparently cannot get any sense of them when they're right next to you, oh but there I go applying reality to a game).
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond