I just tell the player what the condition means mechanically, and that's all it means.
So no imposing of the charmer's will (without the effect causing the condition specifically saying so, such as dominate person or the like), no defending of the charmer (at least not without choice in the matter), and no change of who controls the character.
My experience is that players prefer not to have things interpreted more negatively for them than need be, so they don't want their character being charmed to result in any detriments that aren't specifically spelled out by the rules. Also, my experience is that players would rather have the same interpretation of a rule apply consistently than to have the DM lean in the player's favor so greatly as to have some rule be easy on the PCs but harsh on NPCs, because that usually crosses the line players draw between "the DM is fair and reasonable," and "the DM is treating us like we're too fragile to present with any challenge."
...still working on getting my muscle-memory to stop typing /quote after I hit an open-bracket.
The mechanics are very clear, and sometimes that's all that's needed. If a little more depth is required, my usual rule of thumb for roleplaying such situations depends on the Charmer.
If a party member has been Charmed by a non-hostile NPC, my usual advice is "An old friend".
If a party member has been Charmed by a hostile creature, my usual advice is "An old friend that is awkwardly at odds with your current friends". Or perhaps "that vampire is your friend, but the rest of the group think he's being controlled or Charmed."
If a creature/NPC has been Charmed by a party member, I follow the same advice for its words, thoughts and actions.
So, when I DM, I don't take control of the PC (I don't even do that in Dominate effects, I just dictate actions). Whether they decide to defend an old friend or Charmed "ally" from their allies is their own decision.
Remember not all charms are equal, in particular the vampire's specifically mentions the vampire is to be protected, and you take any requests in the most favorable way possible, even being willing to be bitten.
The charmed target regards the vampire as a trusted friend to be heeded and protected. Although the target isn't under the vampire's control, it takes the vampire's requests or actions in the most favorable way it can, and it is a willing target for the vampire's bite attack.
Right you are. In common, there is the charmed condition, but the degree of influence of the charmer on the target depends on the spell or magical effect. For example, Charm person, Dominate person, Geas, each one of them works differently.
I reference "dominate effects" in my post, even though they're not a term used in canon. Other than that, random vampire reference aside (I just picked a creature at random), my reply refers to the standard charmed condition.
Charmed is a condition with specific effects. There may be other levels of influence that ride on the charmed condition, but by itself, the charmed condition is very specific.
As per the Player's Handbook, page 290 (or here), "If multiple effects impose the same condition on a creature, each instance of the condition has its own duration."
The effect of being charmed doesn't get worse, you don't get super-charmed or anything, but you do have two (or more, but I'd start to question your choices if you find yourself charmed by 5+ people at once) instances of the condition, each with its own baggage. In this case, you can't harm anyone you're charmed by, and all of the charmers have advantage on social rolls against you.
Right you are. In common, there is the charmed condition, but the degree of influence of the charmer on the target depends on the spell or magical effect. For example, Charm person, Dominate person, Geas, each one of them works differently.
And then you have spells like Hypnotic Pattern for which the charmed condition is really just there to determine what types of creatures it can affect.
So could (or would want to charm their new friendly acquaintance) a "charmee" cast charm person on someone who has successfully cast charm person on them?
Charm doesn't cause any damage and just changes the attitude of the target towards the caster. They view them as a friend, they wouldn't continue to attack, they would try to convince anyone else attacking the caster to stop (since they are his friend), they might even step in and actively fight for the caster depending on the circumstances. (Most folks would step into a fight on behalf of a friend even if they are being attacked by other friends ... you have to ask your other friends what they are thinking ...)
Finally, you only realize that you were charmed after the fact. If you make your save you might not even notice that someone tried to charm you.
"When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."
What if someone informs the person they are charmed? Is there anything preventing the person from accepting that they are charmed, or is it just an issue that they don't notice it on their own? And if someone brings it to their attention, might it be reasonable that a person cast dispel magic on themself to cure the condition, assuming they had that ability?
Charm doesn't cause any damage and just changes the attitude of the target towards the caster. They view them as a friend, they wouldn't continue to attack, they would try to convince anyone else attacking the caster to stop (since they are his friend), they might even step in and actively fight for the caster depending on the circumstances. (Most folks would step into a fight on behalf of a friend even if they are being attacked by other friends ... you have to ask your other friends what they are thinking ...)
To be clear, Charm Person makes the target treat the caster as a friendly acquaintance, but that's not a feature of the charmed condition. Also note that "friendly acquaintance" doesn't equal "friend." How far a creature is willing to go to help an acquaintance depends on its personality and alignment. Good creatures are altruistic and are more likely to take risks for an acquaintance. Evil creatures are generally selfish and might only help if it doesn't inconvenience them, or might expect something in return afterwards.
"When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."
What if someone informs the person they are charmed? Is there anything preventing the person from accepting that they are charmed, or is it just an issue that they don't notice it on their own? And if someone brings it to their attention, might it be reasonable that a person cast dispel magic on themself to cure the condition, assuming they had that ability?
For someone to inform the person they've been magically charmed, they'd have to have seen Charm Person being cast and recognized it, or used magic like Identify to recognize the person's being affected by Charm Person. Even if someone saw the spell being cast, they might not know who was targeted, so they'd have to recognize a difference in someone's attitude towards the caster.
Whether the charmed person believes it also depends on whether they saw the spell being cast and recognized it, how much they trust the charmer and how much they trust the person that's telling them they've been charmed.
Ultimately this is just roleplaying; there's no hard rules.
This actually became a big issue in a recent game. I think the game is actually not continuing after it. In the Tomb of Diderius in Rise of Tiamat: the monsters used Suggestion to tell us our fellow party member are replaced with spies and should be attacked.
there was a lot of arguments about what is "reasonable" and how "reasonable" is the suggestion given the Yuanti are attacking the group and that we "must" attack our party members before we attack them. The Initial Suggestion was headed, the Ranger didn't attack the Yuanti that suggested him, but did attack one of the other ones that was attacking the group. After that the GM changed the Suggestion to "kill them as fast as possible". Where this would cause our entire party to TPK ourselves, for the next 8 hours, while also being attacked by the Yuanti. Keep in mind the Yuanti were also attacking their said "allies".
This triggered us playing Yakety Sax, as my Warlock hugged our Devotion Paladin (anyone within 10' of him is immune to Charm), as we tried to hunt down the Yuanti who had charmed the rest of the party into an endless TPK for the next 8 hours, attempting to break their concentration. It got so bad our Sorcerer had to use Suggestion on your Ranger to "Suggest" the Yuanti were LYING and to attack them... this lasted less than a turn as the Yuanti just Suggested that he the Sorcerer was lying.
This is what started the argument that lasted the rest of the fight which was the rest of the night.
Also the suggestions given in the spell are single trigger. Give your horse away to the first person, not "kill every peasant you see".
"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."
I mean, when you ignore what spells actually do, it does often cause problems. Suggesting that your companions are spies is not a course of action, and thus Suggestion can't do that. Suggesting that one attack ones companions who one does not believe are spies (because again, Suggestion can't make you believe things, just do things), does not sound reasonable, so Suggestion can't do that.
The question is simple: as DM, How do you handle the charmed condition?
Technically, what you get in charming a creature is to avoid harmful effects on the charmer and advantage on social interactions.
Do you impose the charmer's will on the target?
Does the target defend the charmer in combat?
Does the player control the target, or the DM?
Share your thoughts and experiences.
I just tell the player what the condition means mechanically, and that's all it means.
So no imposing of the charmer's will (without the effect causing the condition specifically saying so, such as dominate person or the like), no defending of the charmer (at least not without choice in the matter), and no change of who controls the character.
My experience is that players prefer not to have things interpreted more negatively for them than need be, so they don't want their character being charmed to result in any detriments that aren't specifically spelled out by the rules. Also, my experience is that players would rather have the same interpretation of a rule apply consistently than to have the DM lean in the player's favor so greatly as to have some rule be easy on the PCs but harsh on NPCs, because that usually crosses the line players draw between "the DM is fair and reasonable," and "the DM is treating us like we're too fragile to present with any challenge."
...still working on getting my muscle-memory to stop typing /quote after I hit an open-bracket.
The mechanics are very clear, and sometimes that's all that's needed. If a little more depth is required, my usual rule of thumb for roleplaying such situations depends on the Charmer.
If a party member has been Charmed by a non-hostile NPC, my usual advice is "An old friend".
If a party member has been Charmed by a hostile creature, my usual advice is "An old friend that is awkwardly at odds with your current friends". Or perhaps "that vampire is your friend, but the rest of the group think he's being controlled or Charmed."
If a creature/NPC has been Charmed by a party member, I follow the same advice for its words, thoughts and actions.
So, when I DM, I don't take control of the PC (I don't even do that in Dominate effects, I just dictate actions). Whether they decide to defend an old friend or Charmed "ally" from their allies is their own decision.
Remember not all charms are equal, in particular the vampire's specifically mentions the vampire is to be protected, and you take any requests in the most favorable way possible, even being willing to be bitten.
Right you are. In common, there is the charmed condition, but the degree of influence of the charmer on the target depends on the spell or magical effect. For example, Charm person, Dominate person, Geas, each one of them works differently.
Yup!
I reference "dominate effects" in my post, even though they're not a term used in canon. Other than that, random vampire reference aside (I just picked a creature at random), my reply refers to the standard charmed condition.
Charmed is a condition with specific effects. There may be other levels of influence that ride on the charmed condition, but by itself, the charmed condition is very specific.
What if a Charm target get charm by a different target. What will happen?
As per the Player's Handbook, page 290 (or here), "If multiple effects impose the same condition on a creature, each instance of the condition has its own duration."
The effect of being charmed doesn't get worse, you don't get super-charmed or anything, but you do have two (or more, but I'd start to question your choices if you find yourself charmed by 5+ people at once) instances of the condition, each with its own baggage. In this case, you can't harm anyone you're charmed by, and all of the charmers have advantage on social rolls against you.
And then you have spells like Hypnotic Pattern for which the charmed condition is really just there to determine what types of creatures it can affect.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
On a slightly tangential note, is the Charm Person spell a harmful effect...
Love hurts, but being charmed isn't a harmful effect imo
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So could (or would want to charm their new friendly acquaintance) a "charmee" cast charm person on someone who has successfully cast charm person on them?
That sounds like the beginning of a very surreal (but very polite) evening tea with a vampire...
No. Charm is not directly a harmful effect.
Charm doesn't cause any damage and just changes the attitude of the target towards the caster. They view them as a friend, they wouldn't continue to attack, they would try to convince anyone else attacking the caster to stop (since they are his friend), they might even step in and actively fight for the caster depending on the circumstances. (Most folks would step into a fight on behalf of a friend even if they are being attacked by other friends ... you have to ask your other friends what they are thinking ...)
Finally, you only realize that you were charmed after the fact. If you make your save you might not even notice that someone tried to charm you.
"When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."
What if someone informs the person they are charmed? Is there anything preventing the person from accepting that they are charmed, or is it just an issue that they don't notice it on their own? And if someone brings it to their attention, might it be reasonable that a person cast dispel magic on themself to cure the condition, assuming they had that ability?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To be clear, Charm Person makes the target treat the caster as a friendly acquaintance, but that's not a feature of the charmed condition. Also note that "friendly acquaintance" doesn't equal "friend." How far a creature is willing to go to help an acquaintance depends on its personality and alignment. Good creatures are altruistic and are more likely to take risks for an acquaintance. Evil creatures are generally selfish and might only help if it doesn't inconvenience them, or might expect something in return afterwards.
For someone to inform the person they've been magically charmed, they'd have to have seen Charm Person being cast and recognized it, or used magic like Identify to recognize the person's being affected by Charm Person. Even if someone saw the spell being cast, they might not know who was targeted, so they'd have to recognize a difference in someone's attitude towards the caster.
Whether the charmed person believes it also depends on whether they saw the spell being cast and recognized it, how much they trust the charmer and how much they trust the person that's telling them they've been charmed.
Ultimately this is just roleplaying; there's no hard rules.
This actually became a big issue in a recent game. I think the game is actually not continuing after it.
In the Tomb of Diderius in Rise of Tiamat: the monsters used Suggestion to tell us our fellow party member are replaced with spies and should be attacked.
there was a lot of arguments about what is "reasonable" and how "reasonable" is the suggestion given the Yuanti are attacking the group and that we "must" attack our party members before we attack them.
The Initial Suggestion was headed, the Ranger didn't attack the Yuanti that suggested him, but did attack one of the other ones that was attacking the group. After that the GM changed the Suggestion to "kill them as fast as possible".
Where this would cause our entire party to TPK ourselves, for the next 8 hours, while also being attacked by the Yuanti. Keep in mind the Yuanti were also attacking their said "allies".
This triggered us playing Yakety Sax, as my Warlock hugged our Devotion Paladin (anyone within 10' of him is immune to Charm), as we tried to hunt down the Yuanti who had charmed the rest of the party into an endless TPK for the next 8 hours, attempting to break their concentration.
It got so bad our Sorcerer had to use Suggestion on your Ranger to "Suggest" the Yuanti were LYING and to attack them... this lasted less than a turn as the Yuanti just Suggested that he the Sorcerer was lying.
This is what started the argument that lasted the rest of the fight which was the rest of the night.
Also the suggestions given in the spell are single trigger. Give your horse away to the first person, not "kill every peasant you see".
Suggestion
"You suggest a course of activity..."
"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."
I mean, when you ignore what spells actually do, it does often cause problems. Suggesting that your companions are spies is not a course of action, and thus Suggestion can't do that. Suggesting that one attack ones companions who one does not believe are spies (because again, Suggestion can't make you believe things, just do things), does not sound reasonable, so Suggestion can't do that.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wait, the Yuan-tI (and its allies) were attacking the party while said party was under the influence of Suggestion?
Let me point out the last line of said spell: "If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends."