So my players figured out that they could use Mold Earth to create minor pit traps on the fly as part of their ambush (before combat). The Wizard then used it mid-combat on a goblin. I made the goblin stumble as the earth moved under him, and then he failed his DC10 Dex check and was knocked prone in the hole. The Wizard loosely stacked the earth around the hole to make it a little higher (I set a limit of 7ft). The goblin then failed to escape the hole for the next 2 turns with failed climbing checks. And then was killed and buried in said hole because my adventurers are both sadistic and polite.
This got me wondering if this is actually a viable strategy. Because as far as I can figure it out, it is. But I wanted to check with more people.
So that ^ is question one.
Question 2:
Could you use shape water to potentially drown a target?
My wizard text me this question just a few minutes ago and I have no idea. Reading the spell and by what he suggested in his text (which was to create a mask of water over the nose and mouth of the target) it sounds viable but impractical. The Shape Water spell is not concentration but it specifically states '"You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour." The simple shape could be a water bubble adhered to an opponents face and with enough water, it would be hard to remove, especially if the water is magically inclined to remain in that shape despite someone trying to wipe it away.
Peeps might have already asked this question and if they have, please direct me to them. If not, please help.
For Shape Water I'd keep in mind that anyone can hold their breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 plus their constitution modifier, with a minimum of 30 seconds before they start to suffer the effects of drowning. Very, very few combats last longer than one minute so Shape Water won't affect any opponent other than a spell caster and I'd give a spell caster a save to resist this affect and also make the character who cast Shape Water use their action every round to hold the water on the opponent's face, otherwise the opponent can just back out of the water.
I like your on the fly ruling for Mold Earth. Giving an opponent a DC 10 dexterity save to avoid falling into the hole is reasonable and any opponent can easily climb out of it in one round since it's loose earth and is easy to climb. I'd make the DC for the climb check to escape it 10 too since they're climbing less than 10 feet.
For mold earth, I'd say it was handled very well, and is a viable strategy, keeping in mind it won't work in every situation.
Shape water can't be used in the described way (not easily anyway), keeping in mind that the cantrip can only either move the water or give it shape, not both. Furthermore, if they do get a bubble of water on something's head (say with a prepared action to make the water take shape after splashing or dunking an enemy), I'd give the target the option to use an action to make a DC10-15 sleight of hand check to get the bubble off its head, keeping in mind that the water wants to maintain its shape, but not it's position, so it would be like pulling off a gel mold of its head.
I set the limit of the hole to 7feet in order to account that it would work on both medium and small creatures but they were moving 5 cubic feet of loose earth. I made the DC equal to the number of feet, which was 7 and then due to the Goblins being 'small' I added an extra 2 to the DC, making it 9. But I like the idea of just making it a solid DC10 - Thank you, Tim.
And I did not forget about the ability to hold one's breath but was more wondering if it was viable to 'disable' an opponent by making him spend his time trying to remove the water so he can breathe rather than attacking the party. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Chances are too that they use it as a torture device because some sessions see morality thrown out the window.
DxJxC, the line I was looking at in the spell specifically states; "You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction." Meaning the spell can both shape and move the water at the same time. However, I admire the way you described it as "pulling off a gel mold." Awesome way to think of it. And I am taken with your idea of a check on removing it (rather than Tim's idea of a saving throw), though I do think Tims suggestion for a grapple check makes more sense than a sleight of hand. Grapple is more aggressive and sleight of hand is more subtle in my mind.
Also, Tim, thanks for reminding me that spellcasters have verbal components and so would be unable to cast certain spells if there was water in the way. I hadn't even thought of that.
You have both been a wonder. I appreciate the help. You've definitely helped me get my head around the idea.
Shapewater shouldn't adhere, so simply ducking the head even with no other horizontal movement can escape a face full of water, otherwise moving will automatically walk you out of it with no roll required. (possibly making the water then splash to the ground if more than its maximum elasticity above it) There is a definite question about whether the shape you transform water into provides a transport mode, so water into bird - can it fly? If not it flows up to 5' per round. I suspect to avoid weaponisation that the 5' movement would be applied to all modes of movement unless being carried.
Shaping a 5' patch of water into spiky ground and freezing it to simulate caltrops, shaping it into slick ice to maybe make an opponent slip (at a guess give people crossing the slippery ground dc as spell save, fail = difficult ground, fail by 5+ fall prone) and shaping then freezing barricades for cover are all possible. The caltrop option as its a cantrip will probably be broken on dealing damage. Shaping a spear icicle and using it as a one use dagger? probably possible but its definitely an improvised weapon (although if you had proficiency in ice carving tools... hmmm maybe not)
Last note, the wording is that you cant freeze the water if there are creatures in it. This spell is a cantrip so I would also encourage that you disallow the following situation-
You can see a foe underwater or with water in its mouth - you freeze all the water in its mouth that you can see, preventing it from opening and closing its mouth and now its unlikely to be able to breathe, it wasnt in the water, the water was in it.
DxJxC, the line I was looking at in the spell specifically states; "You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction." Meaning the spell can both shape and move the water at the same time. However, I admire the way you described it as "pulling off a gel mold." Awesome way to think of it. And I am taken with your idea of a check on removing it (rather than Tim's idea of a saving throw), though I do think Tims suggestion for a grapple check makes more sense than a sleight of hand. Grapple is more aggressive and sleight of hand is more subtle in my mind.
That line basically means to program it with a simple animation, like shaping it into a flag that blows in the wind or ballerina that skates around a puddle. It can not move from its starting location with the animation, that is what the move up to 5 feet option is for.
I chose sleight of hand for a specific reason. I imagined the surface tension of the bubble of water would be like a shear-thinning non-Newtonian fluid. Where the rougher you handled it, the more it felt like water, and to get it off, you had to gently slide it off without "popping" it and causing it to reform.
That line basically means to program it with a simple animation, like shaping it into a flag that blows in the wind or ballerina that skates around a puddle. It can not move from its starting location with the animation, that is what the move up to 5 feet option is for.
They are separate effects, but also Shape Water contemplates casting the spell multiple times to enact multiple overlapping effects... it just takes multiple rounds of casting the spell to get the effects overlapping. "If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action." The first effect (movement) is the only instantaneous effect, while the other three (shape/animation, color, freezing) are non-instantaneous. This means that movement can be done in conjunction with up to two non-instantaneous effects (shape + freezing, shape + color, or color + freezing), although you would have to spend a couple rounds pre-casting the non-instantaneous effects separately from the movement. But, that also does make pretty clear that the movement is 5 feet/round, no matter what shape the water has taken using the animation effect.
It was funny to see this post since I was just looking @ taking Magic Initiate and these 2 cantrips.
Now someone tell me if these ideas are possible:
1) So enemy is in the hole, if you filled the hole with water, since the hole is loose earth, would it not become mud, thus making it more difficult to climb out or they could sink into it and become trapped.
2) If they are in the hole, could you not freeze the water over the top of it like a lid, sealing them in and suffocating them? bypassing the no freezing them in ice rule?
3) now would most DM's allow a player to use them in conjunction to make mud and difficult terrain?
It was funny to see this post since I was just looking @ taking Magic Initiate and these 2 cantrips.
Now someone tell me if these ideas are possible:
1) So enemy is in the hole, if you filled the hole with water, since the hole is loose earth, would it not become mud, thus making it more difficult to climb out or they could sink into it and become trapped.
2) If they are in the hole, could you not freeze the water over the top of it like a lid, sealing them in and suffocating them? bypassing the no freezing them in ice rule?
3) now would most DM's allow a player to use them in conjunction to make mud and difficult terrain?
If the hole is filled, they could swim to the top. And climbing onto a muddy shore is easier than climbing a mud wall.
You could make an ice lid, but only if the creatures had not already swam or floated to the surface.
You can't cast them at the same time, but one after another would be fine.
As a DM I would make this take 3 turns. (1. make a hole, 2. add water, 3. freeze water) or 2 if you made the pit in advanced. And a 5ft (squared) swimming hole is easy to move out of when you have 20+ feet of movement. Even if it is mud. If it is a sizable hole already dug. You would be adding 5 sqr feet of water per turn. And that would take a bit when they can again move out of it.
With mud as difficult terrain, it only cuts their movement in 1/2. That's not to say you couldn't use it to make difficult terrain before a battle and let your ranged attacks do the work. Or dig 2 long pits to make a narrow path that you turn to mud to make them run at you single file. Maybe, as a DM, adding a dex check to keep their footing or they fall off the mud bridge and into the pits (This would all be ambush prep work) Or if you're in a swamp, you could dig pits under the shallow water that they fall into. (That shit happens in real life.) That could end their movement for the turn unless they completed an athletics (swimming?) check and used a dash action to continue forward.
These spells are actually really useful in the right situations. But that is the case with most of the utility magic.
While I am here I will note my decision on the original question. I want to thank everyone for their input because this has been fun and very helpful. You all can debate if it's right or not for your own games but the following is what I've decided.
The response to Mold Earth was positive so I will keep that rule standing as I made it.
For Shape Water: I figure that the spell would allow my wizard to create a "Ballerina on a pedestal that can spin in place in the palm of my hand." - to quote the wizard. (like a music box with no music) And so, making an orb that adheres and moves with someone's head would be about the same. He just needs to shape the water to "contain" the enemies head like a comical fishbowl. Now, I have made it a Bonus Action to try and remove said orb with a grapple check based on the wizards Spell Save DC. Thinking of it like a 1 handed swipe to try and wipe the water away. The creature can also hold it's breath based on the normal rules; But every physically exerting action taken, such as attack or dash actions, shortens the timer by 30seconds. (They can make their normal movement without penalty, disengage, hide, etc.) They can also spend their action to attempt to remove it without affecting his held breath. (giving him 2 shots in 1 turn) Should the creature/humanoid fail, repeatedly, they will drown. This will only work on medium and smaller creatures, with large creatures being determined by a case-by-case basis. And obviously undead and constructs make this useless.
I may yet make it take his concentration to maintain this. But I am waiting to see what happens.
Also, the wizard also mentioned that if anything they could use it for torture. Though he did not say the word torture. I am watching his alignment closely now. :P Hahaha
I, honestly, think it probably will be. But I would rather test it and find out than just shoot down my player's creative solution. Plus, then they can also all see whether it is OP or not.
This is all new territory. We are the explorers of our imaginations, and I don't see a problem with letting them run a little wild for a session.
It was funny to see this post since I was just looking @ taking Magic Initiate and these 2 cantrips.
Now someone tell me if these ideas are possible:
1) So enemy is in the hole, if you filled the hole with water, since the hole is loose earth, would it not become mud, thus making it more difficult to climb out or they could sink into it and become trapped.
2) If they are in the hole, could you not freeze the water over the top of it like a lid, sealing them in and suffocating them? bypassing the no freezing them in ice rule?
3) now would most DM's allow a player to use them in conjunction to make mud and difficult terrain?
Create or Destroy Water creates 10 gallons of water which isn’t very much and it’s a 1st level spell. It would take a lot of castings to fill a 5’x5’x5’ pit with water. Shape Water manipulates existing water, it doesn’t create water.
Create or Destroy Water creates 10 gallons of water which isn’t very much and it’s a 1st level spell. It would take a lot of castings to fill a 5’x5’x5’ pit with water. Shape Water manipulates existing water, it doesn’t create water.
93.5 castings to be precise. A max level caster can produce 890 gallons by upcasting with all their slots. Only 45 gallons short.
I am suddenly very impressed with the amount of water Shape water can move.
Yeah, Shape Water can move tons of water. Literally, water is heavy. But the water has to be visible within 30 feet in order to be moved. That's a huge limitation most of the time. I have 1 cup of coffee's worth of water within 30 feet of me that's visible. If it's in water skins, it's not visible.
So my players figured out that they could use Mold Earth to create minor pit traps on the fly as part of their ambush (before combat). The Wizard then used it mid-combat on a goblin. I made the goblin stumble as the earth moved under him, and then he failed his DC10 Dex check and was knocked prone in the hole. The Wizard loosely stacked the earth around the hole to make it a little higher (I set a limit of 7ft). The goblin then failed to escape the hole for the next 2 turns with failed climbing checks. And then was killed and buried in said hole because my adventurers are both sadistic and polite.
This got me wondering if this is actually a viable strategy. Because as far as I can figure it out, it is. But I wanted to check with more people.
So that ^ is question one.
Question 2:
Could you use shape water to potentially drown a target?
My wizard text me this question just a few minutes ago and I have no idea. Reading the spell and by what he suggested in his text (which was to create a mask of water over the nose and mouth of the target) it sounds viable but impractical. The Shape Water spell is not concentration but it specifically states '"You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour." The simple shape could be a water bubble adhered to an opponents face and with enough water, it would be hard to remove, especially if the water is magically inclined to remain in that shape despite someone trying to wipe it away.
Peeps might have already asked this question and if they have, please direct me to them. If not, please help.
Thanks in advance.
For Shape Water I'd keep in mind that anyone can hold their breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 plus their constitution modifier, with a minimum of 30 seconds before they start to suffer the effects of drowning. Very, very few combats last longer than one minute so Shape Water won't affect any opponent other than a spell caster and I'd give a spell caster a save to resist this affect and also make the character who cast Shape Water use their action every round to hold the water on the opponent's face, otherwise the opponent can just back out of the water.
I like your on the fly ruling for Mold Earth. Giving an opponent a DC 10 dexterity save to avoid falling into the hole is reasonable and any opponent can easily climb out of it in one round since it's loose earth and is easy to climb. I'd make the DC for the climb check to escape it 10 too since they're climbing less than 10 feet.
Professional computer geek
For mold earth, I'd say it was handled very well, and is a viable strategy, keeping in mind it won't work in every situation.
Shape water can't be used in the described way (not easily anyway), keeping in mind that the cantrip can only either move the water or give it shape, not both. Furthermore, if they do get a bubble of water on something's head (say with a prepared action to make the water take shape after splashing or dunking an enemy), I'd give the target the option to use an action to make a DC10-15 sleight of hand check to get the bubble off its head, keeping in mind that the water wants to maintain its shape, but not it's position, so it would be like pulling off a gel mold of its head.
Hmmm....maybe an opposed grapple check?
Professional computer geek
Thanks, guys.
I set the limit of the hole to 7feet in order to account that it would work on both medium and small creatures but they were moving 5 cubic feet of loose earth. I made the DC equal to the number of feet, which was 7 and then due to the Goblins being 'small' I added an extra 2 to the DC, making it 9. But I like the idea of just making it a solid DC10 - Thank you, Tim.
And I did not forget about the ability to hold one's breath but was more wondering if it was viable to 'disable' an opponent by making him spend his time trying to remove the water so he can breathe rather than attacking the party. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Chances are too that they use it as a torture device because some sessions see morality thrown out the window.
DxJxC, the line I was looking at in the spell specifically states; "You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction." Meaning the spell can both shape and move the water at the same time. However, I admire the way you described it as "pulling off a gel mold." Awesome way to think of it. And I am taken with your idea of a check on removing it (rather than Tim's idea of a saving throw), though I do think Tims suggestion for a grapple check makes more sense than a sleight of hand. Grapple is more aggressive and sleight of hand is more subtle in my mind.
Also, Tim, thanks for reminding me that spellcasters have verbal components and so would be unable to cast certain spells if there was water in the way. I hadn't even thought of that.
You have both been a wonder. I appreciate the help. You've definitely helped me get my head around the idea.
Shapewater shouldn't adhere, so simply ducking the head even with no other horizontal movement can escape a face full of water, otherwise moving will automatically walk you out of it with no roll required. (possibly making the water then splash to the ground if more than its maximum elasticity above it) There is a definite question about whether the shape you transform water into provides a transport mode, so water into bird - can it fly? If not it flows up to 5' per round. I suspect to avoid weaponisation that the 5' movement would be applied to all modes of movement unless being carried.
Shaping a 5' patch of water into spiky ground and freezing it to simulate caltrops, shaping it into slick ice to maybe make an opponent slip (at a guess give people crossing the slippery ground dc as spell save, fail = difficult ground, fail by 5+ fall prone) and shaping then freezing barricades for cover are all possible. The caltrop option as its a cantrip will probably be broken on dealing damage. Shaping a spear icicle and using it as a one use dagger? probably possible but its definitely an improvised weapon (although if you had proficiency in ice carving tools... hmmm maybe not)
Last note, the wording is that you cant freeze the water if there are creatures in it. This spell is a cantrip so I would also encourage that you disallow the following situation-
You can see a foe underwater or with water in its mouth - you freeze all the water in its mouth that you can see, preventing it from opening and closing its mouth and now its unlikely to be able to breathe, it wasnt in the water, the water was in it.
That line basically means to program it with a simple animation, like shaping it into a flag that blows in the wind or ballerina that skates around a puddle. It can not move from its starting location with the animation, that is what the move up to 5 feet option is for.
I chose sleight of hand for a specific reason. I imagined the surface tension of the bubble of water would be like a shear-thinning non-Newtonian fluid. Where the rougher you handled it, the more it felt like water, and to get it off, you had to gently slide it off without "popping" it and causing it to reform.
They are separate effects, but also Shape Water contemplates casting the spell multiple times to enact multiple overlapping effects... it just takes multiple rounds of casting the spell to get the effects overlapping. "If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action." The first effect (movement) is the only instantaneous effect, while the other three (shape/animation, color, freezing) are non-instantaneous. This means that movement can be done in conjunction with up to two non-instantaneous effects (shape + freezing, shape + color, or color + freezing), although you would have to spend a couple rounds pre-casting the non-instantaneous effects separately from the movement. But, that also does make pretty clear that the movement is 5 feet/round, no matter what shape the water has taken using the animation effect.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
If you could use Shape Water to do damage or kill something, the spell would say so.
You can use Mold Earth to make a pit and then fill it in, no problem there.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It was funny to see this post since I was just looking @ taking Magic Initiate and these 2 cantrips.
Now someone tell me if these ideas are possible:
1) So enemy is in the hole, if you filled the hole with water, since the hole is loose earth, would it not become mud, thus making it more difficult to climb out or they could sink into it and become trapped.
2) If they are in the hole, could you not freeze the water over the top of it like a lid, sealing them in and suffocating them? bypassing the no freezing them in ice rule?
3) now would most DM's allow a player to use them in conjunction to make mud and difficult terrain?
That would be a huge amount of water...
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
If the hole is filled, they could swim to the top. And climbing onto a muddy shore is easier than climbing a mud wall.
You could make an ice lid, but only if the creatures had not already swam or floated to the surface.
You can't cast them at the same time, but one after another would be fine.
As a DM I would make this take 3 turns. (1. make a hole, 2. add water, 3. freeze water) or 2 if you made the pit in advanced. And a 5ft (squared) swimming hole is easy to move out of when you have 20+ feet of movement. Even if it is mud. If it is a sizable hole already dug. You would be adding 5 sqr feet of water per turn. And that would take a bit when they can again move out of it.
With mud as difficult terrain, it only cuts their movement in 1/2. That's not to say you couldn't use it to make difficult terrain before a battle and let your ranged attacks do the work. Or dig 2 long pits to make a narrow path that you turn to mud to make them run at you single file. Maybe, as a DM, adding a dex check to keep their footing or they fall off the mud bridge and into the pits (This would all be ambush prep work) Or if you're in a swamp, you could dig pits under the shallow water that they fall into. (That shit happens in real life.) That could end their movement for the turn unless they completed an athletics (swimming?) check and used a dash action to continue forward.
These spells are actually really useful in the right situations. But that is the case with most of the utility magic.
Where is the water coming from?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
While I am here I will note my decision on the original question. I want to thank everyone for their input because this has been fun and very helpful. You all can debate if it's right or not for your own games but the following is what I've decided.
The response to Mold Earth was positive so I will keep that rule standing as I made it.
For Shape Water: I figure that the spell would allow my wizard to create a "Ballerina on a pedestal that can spin in place in the palm of my hand." - to quote the wizard. (like a music box with no music) And so, making an orb that adheres and moves with someone's head would be about the same. He just needs to shape the water to "contain" the enemies head like a comical fishbowl. Now, I have made it a Bonus Action to try and remove said orb with a grapple check based on the wizards Spell Save DC. Thinking of it like a 1 handed swipe to try and wipe the water away. The creature can also hold it's breath based on the normal rules; But every physically exerting action taken, such as attack or dash actions, shortens the timer by 30seconds. (They can make their normal movement without penalty, disengage, hide, etc.) They can also spend their action to attempt to remove it without affecting his held breath. (giving him 2 shots in 1 turn) Should the creature/humanoid fail, repeatedly, they will drown. This will only work on medium and smaller creatures, with large creatures being determined by a case-by-case basis. And obviously undead and constructs make this useless.
I may yet make it take his concentration to maintain this. But I am waiting to see what happens.
Also, the wizard also mentioned that if anything they could use it for torture. Though he did not say the word torture. I am watching his alignment closely now. :P Hahaha
That's OP for a cantrip.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Very likely!
I, honestly, think it probably will be. But I would rather test it and find out than just shoot down my player's creative solution. Plus, then they can also all see whether it is OP or not.
This is all new territory. We are the explorers of our imaginations, and I don't see a problem with letting them run a little wild for a session.
Create or Destroy Water creates 10 gallons of water which isn’t very much and it’s a 1st level spell. It would take a lot of castings to fill a 5’x5’x5’ pit with water. Shape Water manipulates existing water, it doesn’t create water.
Professional computer geek
93.5 castings to be precise. A max level caster can produce 890 gallons by upcasting with all their slots. Only 45 gallons short.
I am suddenly very impressed with the amount of water Shape water can move.
Yeah, Shape Water can move tons of water. Literally, water is heavy. But the water has to be visible within 30 feet in order to be moved. That's a huge limitation most of the time. I have 1 cup of coffee's worth of water within 30 feet of me that's visible. If it's in water skins, it's not visible.
Professional computer geek