My players like to abuse this but it doesn't feel like the game intended for this to be used so often during combat, especially when the enemy has been looking at the player the entire time. One player is using it especially often because her Goblin character can use the hide action as a bonus, so she's constantly evoking an advantage roll on attacks.
I've read the rules up and down but I can't find anything specifically saying this isn't possible. Can you really just hide during combat whenever you want RAW?
Yes, one can take the Hide action on its turn, but it is the DM that adjudicates whether there are the right circumstances to hide or not. It is not like one can hide anytime and anywhere it likes.
The rules for hiding can be a little hard to find, but there are some specific things worth noting within those rules:
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
That strategy is most likely to succeed when the hidden creature uses ranged weapons. Goblins with short bows in the right terrain are just nasty to fight because they can duck behind natural obstructions, move unseen, and hide and then pop up from somewhere unexpected the next round!
I've read the rules up and down but I can't find anything specifically saying this isn't possible. Can you really just hide during combat whenever you want RAW?
It depends on whether the character can actually hide. The Hide Action is not a button you push to magically become hidden. The character has to get out of sight of every foe (you can't hide from just some of them because the others will tell their allies), they have to be able to move somewhere else unseen, and they have to be able to do it stealthily (no carrying a magical glowing sword!).
For example, if a rogue ducks behind a tree, I rule that they aren't hidden. Everyone knows where they are. "The archer is over there, behind that tree!"
If, however, they duck behind a wall then move along the wall intending to pop up somewhere else, they are hidden. "The archer's behind that wall! Ow, no, they are over there now arrgghh!"
Finally, the character still has to roll a DEX (stealth) ability check contested against WIS (Perception) checks from each and everyone else.
As an aside, if the rogue does hide, and then gets taken out, they better not be expecting a ranged healing spell...
Building on what Greenstone_Walker said, I would bristle at a player who wanted to move to a tree, hide behind it, and then fire a shot with advantage. The monster saw you run over to the tree and duck behind it for a second. It won't be fooled. Now if you fire at the monster, run to the tree, and then hide behind it, the monster very well may be distracted by the action that comes from elsewhere during the round and the next round the rogue could quite possibly fire unseen with advantage.
Yes, but tall grass is easy to hide behind and so is thick underbrush in a forest.
Tall grass and thick undergrowth is also very good at obstructing vision. If the rogue is far enough away that the foe can't track them by the movement of the top of the grass then they are far enough away that they are unable to attack the foe.
This is why the Wild Elf feature is so useful. They can hide and attack in situations where no-one else can.
The character has to get out of sight of every foe (you can't hide from just some of them because the others will tell their allies), they have to be able to move somewhere else unseen, and they have to be able to do it stealthily (no carrying a magical glowing sword!).
By RAW, being hidden simply means you are unseen and unheard. It is therefore not a requirement to move somewhere else after taking the Hide action. However if you do not move afterwards, the creature you hid from will still be aware of your last known location, despite you being unseen and unheard. If you break line of sight and succeed on a contested Stealth vs (passive) Perception check, you are hidden and you will have advantage on your attack despite the enemy knowing your location. That is the difference between using an action/bonus action to hide, instead of simply stepping behind cover. Narratively speaking, someone succeeding his Stealth check would be attacking in a stealthily manner therefore not being noticed in time, while someone who didn't pass this check would give away his location and intent to attack leaving his opponent prepared for the attack.
The character does not need to get out of sight of every foe to hide from a single foe. If one creature cannot see you or hear you, you are hidden from that creature. He might still be somewhat aware of your location, due to him noticing in which direction you ran, or his allies relaying the same information. But this doesn't change the fact that he cannot see nor hear you. This ruling is also easily seen in the case of low-intelligence creatures or monsters who cannot communicate with one another.
1) If you have appropriate cover you can take the hide action. (Appropriate cover is up to the DM). Some races like wood elves can hide when lightly obscured by natural features .. it is a DM call whether regular darkness qualifies for this ... similarly, some halflings can hide behind a creature that is one size or more larger than them. Most characters require some sort of total cover that blocks the view of the person they are hiding from. Whether there is appropriate cover is up to the DM.
2) The rules say nothing about hiding be an all or nothing activity. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
3) Hiding does NOT mean that you have somehow vanished.The defender simply doesn't know exactly where you are and as a result, your first attack will have advantage. This is what the rules say ... a lot of the confusion happens when you try to logically explain why it happens.
Folks who think that hiding means that the person has vanished and you don't know where they are any more then think it doesn't make sense ... how could they disappear?
Another way to look at it is the following, if you can't see your opponent they have advantage on their attack roll. Why is this? One possible explanation is that when you can't see someone then you can't observe their movements and you will have no warning of when they attack or where they are aiming. Thus the attack has advantage. If you want a similar explanation for hiding then hiding is simply a case where you can't see your attacker, you have no warning of what they will do next or when they will attack, as a result, when they pop out and fire you have less time to prepare than you would if you could see them raise their weapon and take aim. This lack of preparation means the attack stands a better chance of hitting and so the attack is made with advantage.
This explanation is consistent with the rules and explains why someone can repeatedly hide behind a tree on a battlefield and get advantage on their first attack every round even though the person they are hiding from knows they are behind the tree. Successfully hiding means that you've managed to obscure your movements from your target sufficiently that they have no warning of your attack. HOWEVER, that is entirely just an explanation that is consistent with the rules that makes things more understandable for me as a DM when I try to adjudicate edge cases. It is not the rules. The rules just state how you get hidden, what it means and what mechanical effects it has.
Bottom line -
- if the DM decides there is appropriate cover
- character can make a hide check
- if successful then the next attack can be made with advantage from any creatures that they are hidden from
- it is possible that the character may not know whether their hide check succeeded or not (there is really no reason for the DM to tell them until the dice are rolled)
There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
Combatants talk. If you are hidden from one kobold but not another, a shout of "rogue's behind that wall" means you are not hidden from either.
I feel like your position makes some assumptions that are not spelled out by the rules, but it is a reasonable position that does not contradict the rules for hiding and stealth.
There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
Combatants talk. If you are hidden from one kobold but not another, a shout of "rogue's behind that wall" means you are not hidden from either.
That's an interesting view, and does definitely create a circumstance where a creature's position may be given away, however does that mean the information is accurate? Does that mean they are no longer hidden from view? Does that mean they are no longer unheard?
Rogue: I run behind that wall and hide. (rolls for stealth) NPC: Hey that guy is hiding behind the wall! (negates stealth) Rogue: I run into the building and hide inside, I'll snipe from a window. (rolls for stealth) NPC: Hey that guy ran into the building! (negates stealth) Rogue: I dive into the shadows, they're all human so they can't see me in the dark. (rolls for stealth) NPC: Hey that guy dove into the shadows! (negates stealth)
Seems like the rogue really doesn't have a chance if you take that stance. In that situation I believe it would be more appropriate to give advantage to the Passive/Active Perception rather than flat out negating the stealth of the creature hiding.
An attacker would still have disadvantage on attacking the unseen rogue even if someone was coaching the attacker on where to attack. I agree it could really cripple the rogue's hiding ability if the DM was heavy-handed about it. It could also add some cool flavor to the encounter with the rogue hitting and running while the enemies try to coordinate a response to pin him down.
If, according to the quote, you are not hidden when your position is called out then you would be under the ruling of Cover as opposed to Unseen Attackers and Targets. This would not impose disadvantage, instead it would provide an AC bonus or make it so you could not be targeted, it would also negate advantage on your next attack.
edit: With the exception of full cover, which may provide disadvantage since you would be unseen.
Combatants talk. If you are hidden from one kobold but not another, a shout of "rogue's behind that wall" means you are not hidden from either.
This has nothing to do with RAW. As a matter of fact, your home-brew ruling contradicts RAW. Even if a creature has an idea about your location, you are still hidden (unseen and unheard) from that creature if you took the Hide action and passed the check. The sidebar note in the Hide section confirms this by omission, by stating: "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position". This makes it clear that, while you can't hide from a creature who can see you clearly, you canhide from a creature that can't see you clearly. Also, by "shouting a warning" the only exact location the creature is giving away is its own.
There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
Combatants talk. If you are hidden from one kobold but not another, a shout of "rogue's behind that wall" means you are not hidden from either.
That's an interesting view, and does definitely create a circumstance where a creature's position may be given away, however does that mean the information is accurate? Does that mean they are no longer hidden from view? Does that mean they are no longer unheard?
What I was meaning was if the Rogue was not hidden from some foes.
For example, the rogue ducks behind a wall and stealthily moves to the other end, successfully hiding from the goblins on the other side of the wall. However, there is a goblin on this side of the wall, who can clearly see the rogue. It yells to its mates, "The rogue is behind the wall near the far end!" with the result that rogue is now hidden from no-one.
The rogue does have cover from the first two goblins, so ducking behind the wall did have some benefit. However, when she pops up to take a bowshot at the goblins, she wont have advantage from hiding.
Alright, to clarify: given these three situations:
1: Rogue: I run behind that wall and hide. NPC: Hey that guy is hiding behind the wall!
2: Rogue: I run into the building and hide inside, I'll snipe from a window. NPC: Hey that guy ran into the building!
3: Rogue: I dive into the shadows, they're all human so they can't see me in the dark. NPC: Hey that guy dove into the shadows!
All three situations would, in your game, completely negate the hide action because at least one npc could see and call out the position of the player who is trying to hide?
If that's the case, and all creatures are assumed to have 360 degree vision at all times, how does one successfully hide in your game?
Also there's not much time in combat to call out to your teammates, a round only lasts 6 second, and if you see the enemy rogue climb over a wall which your teammates are behind, but there's a Barbarian with a great axe which just cleaved into you, than telling your friends about the Rogue is probably not very high on your list of things to do in the next 6 seconds. And from a mechanic perspective, I'd probably say it would take a bonus action or at the very least, a reaction to let your allies only about a hidden enemy.
I don't know about any other tables, but I consider a maximum of 6 words at the table to be a free action even when it's not your initiative. This detracts from conversations and talking tactics mid-combat where it wouldn't make sense. If, on your turn, you wanted to make this epic speech I would consider the length of the speech and label it free, bonus, or action depending on the length.
In terms of shouting "Rogue behind south wall" or "Sniper, second floor, third window, left" both of those would be valid free action statements that could be shouted out of turn. The information can then be used by the active character/creature to make a new Perception. This is where it gets tricky since, according to the combat rules, a Search while in in combat is an Action, however you have an idea of where to look so I'd be generous and make it take a Bonus Action with that information. I would also allow advantage on each because of the information given, making it easier to spot the hidden character/creature. By that, in my game, the hidden person is hidden until the Passive/Active Perception of the individual beats the Stealth roll.
My players like to abuse this but it doesn't feel like the game intended for this to be used so often during combat, especially when the enemy has been looking at the player the entire time. One player is using it especially often because her Goblin character can use the hide action as a bonus, so she's constantly evoking an advantage roll on attacks.
I've read the rules up and down but I can't find anything specifically saying this isn't possible. Can you really just hide during combat whenever you want RAW?
Yes, one can take the Hide action on its turn, but it is the DM that adjudicates whether there are the right circumstances to hide or not. It is not like one can hide anytime and anywhere it likes.
The rules for hiding can be a little hard to find, but there are some specific things worth noting within those rules:
Hope this helps!
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That strategy is most likely to succeed when the hidden creature uses ranged weapons. Goblins with short bows in the right terrain are just nasty to fight because they can duck behind natural obstructions, move unseen, and hide and then pop up from somewhere unexpected the next round!
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It depends on whether the character can actually hide. The Hide Action is not a button you push to magically become hidden. The character has to get out of sight of every foe (you can't hide from just some of them because the others will tell their allies), they have to be able to move somewhere else unseen, and they have to be able to do it stealthily (no carrying a magical glowing sword!).
For example, if a rogue ducks behind a tree, I rule that they aren't hidden. Everyone knows where they are. "The archer is over there, behind that tree!"
If, however, they duck behind a wall then move along the wall intending to pop up somewhere else, they are hidden. "The archer's behind that wall! Ow, no, they are over there now arrgghh!"
Finally, the character still has to roll a DEX (stealth) ability check contested against WIS (Perception) checks from each and everyone else.
As an aside, if the rogue does hide, and then gets taken out, they better not be expecting a ranged healing spell...
Building on what Greenstone_Walker said, I would bristle at a player who wanted to move to a tree, hide behind it, and then fire a shot with advantage. The monster saw you run over to the tree and duck behind it for a second. It won't be fooled. Now if you fire at the monster, run to the tree, and then hide behind it, the monster very well may be distracted by the action that comes from elsewhere during the round and the next round the rogue could quite possibly fire unseen with advantage.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, but tall grass is easy to hide behind and so is thick underbrush in a forest.
Professional computer geek
Tall grass and thick undergrowth is also very good at obstructing vision. If the rogue is far enough away that the foe can't track them by the movement of the top of the grass then they are far enough away that they are unable to attack the foe.
This is why the Wild Elf feature is so useful. They can hide and attack in situations where no-one else can.
By RAW, being hidden simply means you are unseen and unheard. It is therefore not a requirement to move somewhere else after taking the Hide action. However if you do not move afterwards, the creature you hid from will still be aware of your last known location, despite you being unseen and unheard. If you break line of sight and succeed on a contested Stealth vs (passive) Perception check, you are hidden and you will have advantage on your attack despite the enemy knowing your location. That is the difference between using an action/bonus action to hide, instead of simply stepping behind cover. Narratively speaking, someone succeeding his Stealth check would be attacking in a stealthily manner therefore not being noticed in time, while someone who didn't pass this check would give away his location and intent to attack leaving his opponent prepared for the attack.
The character does not need to get out of sight of every foe to hide from a single foe. If one creature cannot see you or hear you, you are hidden from that creature. He might still be somewhat aware of your location, due to him noticing in which direction you ran, or his allies relaying the same information. But this doesn't change the fact that he cannot see nor hear you. This ruling is also easily seen in the case of low-intelligence creatures or monsters who cannot communicate with one another.
A couple of points.
1) If you have appropriate cover you can take the hide action. (Appropriate cover is up to the DM). Some races like wood elves can hide when lightly obscured by natural features .. it is a DM call whether regular darkness qualifies for this ... similarly, some halflings can hide behind a creature that is one size or more larger than them. Most characters require some sort of total cover that blocks the view of the person they are hiding from. Whether there is appropriate cover is up to the DM.
2) The rules say nothing about hiding be an all or nothing activity. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't be hidden from some creatures and not from others so taking a hide action to be hidden from one creature is not prevented by being in line of view of a team mate.
3) Hiding does NOT mean that you have somehow vanished.The defender simply doesn't know exactly where you are and as a result, your first attack will have advantage. This is what the rules say ... a lot of the confusion happens when you try to logically explain why it happens.
Folks who think that hiding means that the person has vanished and you don't know where they are any more then think it doesn't make sense ... how could they disappear?
Another way to look at it is the following, if you can't see your opponent they have advantage on their attack roll. Why is this? One possible explanation is that when you can't see someone then you can't observe their movements and you will have no warning of when they attack or where they are aiming. Thus the attack has advantage. If you want a similar explanation for hiding then hiding is simply a case where you can't see your attacker, you have no warning of what they will do next or when they will attack, as a result, when they pop out and fire you have less time to prepare than you would if you could see them raise their weapon and take aim. This lack of preparation means the attack stands a better chance of hitting and so the attack is made with advantage.
This explanation is consistent with the rules and explains why someone can repeatedly hide behind a tree on a battlefield and get advantage on their first attack every round even though the person they are hiding from knows they are behind the tree. Successfully hiding means that you've managed to obscure your movements from your target sufficiently that they have no warning of your attack. HOWEVER, that is entirely just an explanation that is consistent with the rules that makes things more understandable for me as a DM when I try to adjudicate edge cases. It is not the rules. The rules just state how you get hidden, what it means and what mechanical effects it has.
Bottom line -
- if the DM decides there is appropriate cover
- character can make a hide check
- if successful then the next attack can be made with advantage from any creatures that they are hidden from
- it is possible that the character may not know whether their hide check succeeded or not (there is really no reason for the DM to tell them until the dice are rolled)
Combatants talk. If you are hidden from one kobold but not another, a shout of "rogue's behind that wall" means you are not hidden from either.
I feel like your position makes some assumptions that are not spelled out by the rules, but it is a reasonable position that does not contradict the rules for hiding and stealth.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's an interesting view, and does definitely create a circumstance where a creature's position may be given away, however does that mean the information is accurate? Does that mean they are no longer hidden from view? Does that mean they are no longer unheard?
Rogue: I run behind that wall and hide. (rolls for stealth)
NPC: Hey that guy is hiding behind the wall! (negates stealth)
Rogue: I run into the building and hide inside, I'll snipe from a window. (rolls for stealth)
NPC: Hey that guy ran into the building! (negates stealth)
Rogue: I dive into the shadows, they're all human so they can't see me in the dark. (rolls for stealth)
NPC: Hey that guy dove into the shadows! (negates stealth)
Seems like the rogue really doesn't have a chance if you take that stance. In that situation I believe it would be more appropriate to give advantage to the Passive/Active Perception rather than flat out negating the stealth of the creature hiding.
An attacker would still have disadvantage on attacking the unseen rogue even if someone was coaching the attacker on where to attack. I agree it could really cripple the rogue's hiding ability if the DM was heavy-handed about it. It could also add some cool flavor to the encounter with the rogue hitting and running while the enemies try to coordinate a response to pin him down.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If, according to the quote, you are not hidden when your position is called out then you would be under the ruling of Cover as opposed to Unseen Attackers and Targets. This would not impose disadvantage, instead it would provide an AC bonus or make it so you could not be targeted, it would also negate advantage on your next attack.
edit: With the exception of full cover, which may provide disadvantage since you would be unseen.
This has nothing to do with RAW. As a matter of fact, your home-brew ruling contradicts RAW.
Even if a creature has an idea about your location, you are still hidden (unseen and unheard) from that creature if you took the Hide action and passed the check. The sidebar note in the Hide section confirms this by omission, by stating: "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position". This makes it clear that, while you can't hide from a creature who can see you clearly, you can hide from a creature that can't see you clearly. Also, by "shouting a warning" the only exact location the creature is giving away is its own.
What I was meaning was if the Rogue was not hidden from some foes.
For example, the rogue ducks behind a wall and stealthily moves to the other end, successfully hiding from the goblins on the other side of the wall. However, there is a goblin on this side of the wall, who can clearly see the rogue. It yells to its mates, "The rogue is behind the wall near the far end!" with the result that rogue is now hidden from no-one.
The rogue does have cover from the first two goblins, so ducking behind the wall did have some benefit. However, when she pops up to take a bowshot at the goblins, she wont have advantage from hiding.
Alright, to clarify: given these three situations:
1: Rogue: I run behind that wall and hide.
NPC: Hey that guy is hiding behind the wall!
2: Rogue: I run into the building and hide inside, I'll snipe from a window.
NPC: Hey that guy ran into the building!
3: Rogue: I dive into the shadows, they're all human so they can't see me in the dark.
NPC: Hey that guy dove into the shadows!
All three situations would, in your game, completely negate the hide action because at least one npc could see and call out the position of the player who is trying to hide?
If that's the case, and all creatures are assumed to have 360 degree vision at all times, how does one successfully hide in your game?
Also there's not much time in combat to call out to your teammates, a round only lasts 6 second, and if you see the enemy rogue climb over a wall which your teammates are behind, but there's a Barbarian with a great axe which just cleaved into you, than telling your friends about the Rogue is probably not very high on your list of things to do in the next 6 seconds. And from a mechanic perspective, I'd probably say it would take a bonus action or at the very least, a reaction to let your allies only about a hidden enemy.
I don't know about any other tables, but I consider a maximum of 6 words at the table to be a free action even when it's not your initiative. This detracts from conversations and talking tactics mid-combat where it wouldn't make sense. If, on your turn, you wanted to make this epic speech I would consider the length of the speech and label it free, bonus, or action depending on the length.
In terms of shouting "Rogue behind south wall" or "Sniper, second floor, third window, left" both of those would be valid free action statements that could be shouted out of turn. The information can then be used by the active character/creature to make a new Perception. This is where it gets tricky since, according to the combat rules, a Search while in in combat is an Action, however you have an idea of where to look so I'd be generous and make it take a Bonus Action with that information. I would also allow advantage on each because of the information given, making it easier to spot the hidden character/creature. By that, in my game, the hidden person is hidden until the Passive/Active Perception of the individual beats the Stealth roll.