Hmmm. This made me think of something on a different line of thought.
The spell includes the phrase "Since this spell induces a natural disease in its target". So, the selected disease is considered natural, not magical.
Does that mean it has a vector of infection?
Can you infect a whole city by casting the spell on a person (or a dog, or a rat)?
The DM's Guide has very little to offer about diseases, and mostly suggests they're story devices. It also mentions that some diseases might be infectious while others not.
An interesting tool for an antagonist, certainly, although I can see how a PC could use it to devastate an evil overlord's army, too.
I like to use contagion when the target is asleep in their bed. They wake up, look around, and (hopefully) don't see their enemy that cast it on them and retreated into the darkness. Then go back to sleep likely not thinking much about having been woken up in the middle of the night, and wake up in the morning (hopefully) afflicted by some terrible illness.
It's not often that PCs in my campaigns use the spell, but when they do it is usually in similar circumstances. One character that knew the spell liked to use it as a means to ingratiate the locals by getting someone relatively important or influential "mysteriously ill" and then having the party provide the cure. Though I understand that not everyone allows evil-aligned characters as PCs at their tables.
- if this start from the first Turn then its would be the most broken spell . "but that what the Wording says EXACTLY" Your touch inflicts disease, the disease's effects last for the duration "if something last then it has started already", and the creature stops making these saves , the creature recovers from the disease "Recover means that it was Affected by it". and it wouldn't be the most broken spell though because ALOT of monsters are IMMUNE to disease , have High Con save OR can just use Legendary resistance to ignore it . and a lesser Restoration Spell can cancel it . And dont forget IT requires an attack roll . that means its Either all or nothing ! - if it start after three fails then its the F****n worst spell ....
easiest fix is to change the wording from :
At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.
TO
At the start of each of the target's turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. if it fails the spell takes effect this turn . if it saves the creature resist the effect of this turn . After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.
easy fix and that is the one I am gonna use when DMing .
PS: Sage Advice from Twitter MEANS NOTHING !!! If they want to fix it they will say it in the Errata or publish it in the Sage Advice Compendium . A one man "EVEN IF HE WAS GIGAX HIMSELF" says something on twitter MEANS NOTHING . building a game require a team .
Do contagion effects kick in immediately, or do they kick in when the target fails the three saving throws? The effects of the contagion spell’s disease are meant to activate after three failed saving throws.
I'm going to actually agree with you. The description of the spell says:
Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.
At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.
The specific points are of course, (1) on a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice. (2) On each turn target makes con save after three the disease effects last for duration and (3) After 3 successes the creature recovers from the disease and the spell ends.
One of the key points that the spell never mentions but is part of the game, all the diseases in the SRD (I'll have to check the dmg later) specifically have an incubation time. So it would seem that the game intends all disease to incubate before causing their effects, which is where the designers seem to have been going with the spell. However, the spell itself does not explicitly state that the spells have an incubation time of 9-18 seconds... which seems silly when all other diseases take at least a day. (Also it is a natural disease and how many of those really take affect 9 seconds later?
Still strictly reading the spell on a hit the person if afflicted by the disease and after three saves they recover from the disease. The question of course is whether or not the disease affects start immediately or not. Based on every disease in the game, the answer would be no. None of their effects start immediately after being affected. The spell however, does not state that the diseases have any incubation period even if you might be able to infer that they do.
I'd be inclined to say it doesn't based on how diseases work in 5th edition. However, based on the wording of the spell, it isn't clear enough to say that disease affects don't start immediately.
well first its magical of nature ! second there is a lot of monster that when hit or fail a con save you get the Disease connection IMMEDIATELY . simplest Example Diseased Giant Rat "and thats a normal ass .... Giant rat"
Ok then. its a Useless spell then . "But uuhhh its good for bad guys who have higher DC for spells always urrrr" . well Then DONT PUT IT IN THE PLAYER HAND BOOK !
then THE only way this would be useful if the Player is like a spy Sorcerer who can Use subtle magic and use slight of hand to touch a targit in a party or something without noticing . or an 18`th Level druid as a bug cast it outside combat and hurry off .
I mean who gonna Use this in combat !!! against Legendary resistance and such !
As written, and interpreted, it's definitely hard to justify using it. It seems to combine two forms of resistance to the spell by the enemy, first I have to hit them, and then they also get not 1 but three failed saving throws as a cushion.
However I do like that the three failed saving throws act as a dramatic buffer wherein the creature is getting more sick until they finally feel the full effects. I do think the spell needs to be reworked though. My first thought is to take away the attack roll, and the touch requirement. I'd instead make this a cone, 15 foot. Keep the three saves, so yes this would be tactical risk, and would probably be used against a whole lot of somethings, or several somethings with a lot of hit points.
Okay, RAW (Rules As Written), contagion takes effect immediately. RAI (Rules As Intended), it takes effect after three failed saves. RAI trumps RAW, but RAF (Rules As Fun) trumps RAI. Looking at the spell a bit more closely, I'm tempted to think that they based its level on the possibility of both interpretations, meaning that it isn't actually balanced either way.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Okay, RAW (Rules As Written), contagion takes effect immediately. RAI (Rules As Intended), it takes effect after three failed saves. RAI trumps RAW, but RAF (Rules As Fun) trumps RAI. Looking at the spell a bit more closely, I'm tempted to think that they based its level on the possibility of both interpretations, meaning that it isn't actually balanced either way.
I don't think they would have purposefully left in vagueness. The final effects of Contagion are game-breakingly harsh, and applied at the start of combat can (with unlucky rolls) turn a campaign archenemy into a quivering mass by Round 3. It's also useful out of combat if you can figure out how. It's situational but powerful - i.e., a fifth-level spell.
This conversation has been done for just over a year, but I think it's worth noting on here that the spell description just changed due to errata.
Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.
At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration.
That's a pretty elegant solution, actually. It's also pretty powerful - it gets around poison resistance, because it's inflicted automatically on a hit and the followup saves are not against a poison effect per se (on my reading). It's a guaranteed three turns of disadvantage on attack rolls, and a chance to inflict the spell's horrifying effects if the enemy rolls poorly (or at least burn one or two of the boss' legendary resistances). And it retains its out-of-combat role. Only drawback is that creatures immune to poison (but not disease) cannot end up being diseased.
That's a pretty elegant solution, actually. It's also pretty powerful - it gets around poison resistance, because it's inflicted automatically on a hit and the followup saves are not against a poison effect per se (on my reading). It's a guaranteed three turns of disadvantage on attack rolls, and a chance to inflict the spell's horrifying effects if the enemy rolls poorly (or at least burn one or two of the boss' legendary resistances). And it retains its out-of-combat role. Only drawback is that creatures immune to poison (but not disease) cannot end up being diseased.
I see where you're coming from. but that feels like a stretch to me.
This conversation has been done for just over a year, but I think it's worth noting on here that the spell description just changed due to errata.
Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.
At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration.
Wow...and just like that, this spell is useful lol.
The spell now causes poison for at least 3 turns on a hit, instead of potentially doing nothing.
Game designers are actually using errata to correct spells instead of pretending that Sage Advice = RAW.
The prior spell really was too much of an "I win" button against foes with legendary saves
Cons:
I'm still not sure that disadvantage for three rounds is worth a fifth level spell slot, especially when it involves a touch attack, and when it's so easily circumvented by such a common immunity.
It is a touch spell, so can be cast through a sneaky familiar before the fight. The main limitation is only undying Warlocks get both contagion and familiars.
If they fail 3 saving throws you could be inflicting Slimy Doom which by this point means guaranteed a long lasting stun lock against any creature not immune to disease. Hence the level of the spell. If your group is able to work with this (like another casting Bestow Curse for disadvantage to the Con save) and another using Bane and so on... It can make it easier for the target to fail the 3 saves.
Also, 3 turns at minimum, usually more, with poisoned condition is nifty too, so even if they did save 3 times before failing 3 times you get anywhere from 3 to 6 turns with them having disadvantage to all skills (yay grapples) and attacks. It's actually quite balanced for the spell level. Worst case scenario is 3 turns poisoned and best case scenario is days of instant-stun-lock for automatic victory? Not bad.
I’ve always thought of Contagion as the druid terror spell. Evil baron is destroying the forest. Druid sneaks in to his castle in wildshape, casts the spell on the sleeping baron. If it takes effect, then the druids have a week to convince him to change his ways through diplomacy or finish him if they want to. It sends the message “don’t mess with the druids”.
Hmmm. This made me think of something on a different line of thought.
The spell includes the phrase "Since this spell induces a natural disease in its target". So, the selected disease is considered natural, not magical.
Does that mean it has a vector of infection?
Can you infect a whole city by casting the spell on a person (or a dog, or a rat)?
The DM's Guide has very little to offer about diseases, and mostly suggests they're story devices. It also mentions that some diseases might be infectious while others not.
An interesting tool for an antagonist, certainly, although I can see how a PC could use it to devastate an evil overlord's army, too.
I like to use contagion when the target is asleep in their bed. They wake up, look around, and (hopefully) don't see their enemy that cast it on them and retreated into the darkness. Then go back to sleep likely not thinking much about having been woken up in the middle of the night, and wake up in the morning (hopefully) afflicted by some terrible illness.
It's not often that PCs in my campaigns use the spell, but when they do it is usually in similar circumstances. One character that knew the spell liked to use it as a means to ingratiate the locals by getting someone relatively important or influential "mysteriously ill" and then having the party provide the cure. Though I understand that not everyone allows evil-aligned characters as PCs at their tables.
- if this start from the first Turn then its would be the most broken spell . "but that what the Wording says EXACTLY"
Your touch inflicts disease , the disease's effects last for the duration "if something last then it has started already", and the creature stops making these saves , the creature recovers from the disease "Recover means that it was Affected by it".
and it wouldn't be the most broken spell though because ALOT of monsters are IMMUNE to disease , have High Con save OR can just use Legendary resistance to ignore it . and a lesser Restoration Spell can cancel it .
And dont forget IT requires an attack roll . that means its Either all or nothing !
- if it start after three fails then its the F****n worst spell ....
easiest fix is to change the wording from :
TO
easy fix and that is the one I am gonna use when DMing .
PS: Sage Advice from Twitter MEANS NOTHING !!! If they want to fix it they will say it in the Errata or publish it in the Sage Advice Compendium .
A one man "EVEN IF HE WAS GIGAX HIMSELF" says something on twitter MEANS NOTHING . building a game require a team .
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
Um, it is in the sage advice compendium. Page 13.
I'm going to actually agree with you. The description of the spell says:
The specific points are of course, (1) on a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice. (2) On each turn target makes con save after three the disease effects last for duration and (3) After 3 successes the creature recovers from the disease and the spell ends.
One of the key points that the spell never mentions but is part of the game, all the diseases in the SRD (I'll have to check the dmg later) specifically have an incubation time. So it would seem that the game intends all disease to incubate before causing their effects, which is where the designers seem to have been going with the spell. However, the spell itself does not explicitly state that the spells have an incubation time of 9-18 seconds... which seems silly when all other diseases take at least a day. (Also it is a natural disease and how many of those really take affect 9 seconds later?
Still strictly reading the spell on a hit the person if afflicted by the disease and after three saves they recover from the disease. The question of course is whether or not the disease affects start immediately or not. Based on every disease in the game, the answer would be no. None of their effects start immediately after being affected. The spell however, does not state that the diseases have any incubation period even if you might be able to infer that they do.
I'd be inclined to say it doesn't based on how diseases work in 5th edition. However, based on the wording of the spell, it isn't clear enough to say that disease affects don't start immediately.
well first its magical of nature ! second there is a lot of monster that when hit or fail a con save you get the Disease connection IMMEDIATELY . simplest Example Diseased Giant Rat "and thats a normal ass .... Giant rat"
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
Ok then. its a Useless spell then .
"But uuhhh its good for bad guys who have higher DC for spells always urrrr" .
well Then DONT PUT IT IN THE PLAYER HAND BOOK !
then THE only way this would be useful if the Player is like a spy Sorcerer who can Use subtle magic and use slight of hand to touch a targit in a party or something without noticing .
or an 18`th Level druid as a bug cast it outside combat and hurry off .
I mean who gonna Use this in combat !!! against Legendary resistance and such !
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
As written, and interpreted, it's definitely hard to justify using it. It seems to combine two forms of resistance to the spell by the enemy, first I have to hit them, and then they also get not 1 but three failed saving throws as a cushion.
However I do like that the three failed saving throws act as a dramatic buffer wherein the creature is getting more sick until they finally feel the full effects. I do think the spell needs to be reworked though. My first thought is to take away the attack roll, and the touch requirement. I'd instead make this a cone, 15 foot. Keep the three saves, so yes this would be tactical risk, and would probably be used against a whole lot of somethings, or several somethings with a lot of hit points.
Just my 2 cents.
Most of the diseases listed have 3 effects, so what I would do to improve this spell is afflict a new effect with each failed save.
i.e. Blinding sickness:
1st failed save: disadvantage on Wisdom checks
2nd failed save: disadvantage on Wisdom saves
3rd failed save: Blinded
Okay, RAW (Rules As Written), contagion takes effect immediately. RAI (Rules As Intended), it takes effect after three failed saves. RAI trumps RAW, but RAF (Rules As Fun) trumps RAI. Looking at the spell a bit more closely, I'm tempted to think that they based its level on the possibility of both interpretations, meaning that it isn't actually balanced either way.
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This conversation has been done for just over a year, but I think it's worth noting on here that the spell description just changed due to errata.
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That's a pretty elegant solution, actually. It's also pretty powerful - it gets around poison resistance, because it's inflicted automatically on a hit and the followup saves are not against a poison effect per se (on my reading). It's a guaranteed three turns of disadvantage on attack rolls, and a chance to inflict the spell's horrifying effects if the enemy rolls poorly (or at least burn one or two of the boss' legendary resistances). And it retains its out-of-combat role. Only drawback is that creatures immune to poison (but not disease) cannot end up being diseased.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Contagion - "burn a 5th level spell slot to maybe impose the effects of a 4th level or lower spell in 3-5 rounds!"
I see where you're coming from. but that feels like a stretch to me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Wow...and just like that, this spell is useful lol.
Pro's:
Cons:
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It is a touch spell, so can be cast through a sneaky familiar before the fight. The main limitation is only undying Warlocks get both contagion and familiars.
If they fail 3 saving throws you could be inflicting Slimy Doom which by this point means guaranteed a long lasting stun lock against any creature not immune to disease. Hence the level of the spell. If your group is able to work with this (like another casting Bestow Curse for disadvantage to the Con save) and another using Bane and so on... It can make it easier for the target to fail the 3 saves.
Also, 3 turns at minimum, usually more, with poisoned condition is nifty too, so even if they did save 3 times before failing 3 times you get anywhere from 3 to 6 turns with them having disadvantage to all skills (yay grapples) and attacks. It's actually quite balanced for the spell level. Worst case scenario is 3 turns poisoned and best case scenario is days of instant-stun-lock for automatic victory? Not bad.
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I’ve always thought of Contagion as the druid terror spell. Evil baron is destroying the forest. Druid sneaks in to his castle in wildshape, casts the spell on the sleeping baron. If it takes effect, then the druids have a week to convince him to change his ways through diplomacy or finish him if they want to. It sends the message “don’t mess with the druids”.