The main reason for allowing a spell to work as written or not is if it would take away from another class or spell. If you want to light a hex on fire with Fire Bolt, the answer is no, use Create Bonfire. You want to burn out a lock with Acid Spray, no because locks are what lock picks and Rogues are for.
Use the spell that does the thing you want and don't steal another player's thunder.
That last sentence...
”Bards”
steal thunder of rogue expertise
steal thunder of wizard in spells.
etc.
i dislike that as your example for the point. But do like your point, given good justification for the failures of stuff other than. “No. You can’t do that. Get lock picks”
because then you have the DM who goes “your lock picks will never work. You aren’t proficient in them”
“your lock picks will never work. You aren’t proficient in them”
This is funny b/c my group was about 3 attacks from group death, so the kids have their group merged with us for an hour to try and help us. One of the kids tried to pick the lock using an arrow. (Alas, 2 kids died a horrible death and another lost his 3D8 Diamond sword to our group before they were teleported away.)
The main reason for allowing a spell to work as written or not is if it would take away from another class or spell. If you want to light a hex on fire with Fire Bolt, the answer is no, use Create Bonfire. You want to burn out a lock with Acid Spray, no because locks are what lock picks and Rogues are for.
Use the spell that does the thing you want and don't steal another player's thunder.
”Bards”
steal thunder of rogue expertise
steal thunder of wizard in spells.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I'm fair certain most folks know the gist of my post.
In the end, it's GM choice. They have to keep in mind who can do what and be aware of how they can make everybody at the table feel included, not be a sideshow or shadow.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
IMHO Overloading the power of cantrips is a slippery slope. And I have allowed some cantrips and spells go slightly around the edges of the rules. Usually the decision is around, does it make for an interesting story and it is creative.
However I try to have some rules of thumb to be consistent.
A cantrip cannot duplicate a spell of a higher level beyond what is written. Otherwise it diminishes the value of the higher level spell. So a ray of frost is not going to provide the effects of Grease. Erupting Earth] isn't going to cause a cave in, because hey even Earthquake doesn't do that.
A cantrip cannot target beyond what it is capable of. [spell]Eldritch Blast[/spell can't target a lamp. My explanation is that spells like that need a life force or locus like undeath or magic of a contruct to target. I like having reasons, even if they aren't canonical.
A cantrip doesn't leave stuff behind. Poison Spray doesn't leave poison to just harvest after a cast on a target. That's what Fabricate or similar is for.
Things I have done is use thaumaturgy harmless tremors to knock over a set of pots and pans in a sink as a distraction. Could have used Mage Hand...but I didn't. Using Move Earth to make a 10 foot wide trench by 60 feet in 2 minutes? Sure that's clear...but can I move the earth into a giant pile if I have an hour? I might be ok with that.
I really like the answer of "It might not work all the time, here's a DC." Making it a skill check is awesome. But I really don't like expanding the capability of CANTRIPS too far. I'm more inclined to on higher level spells. The limited resource spells (slots) are more appropriate for this.
(Yes this is off topic) Example that was discussed at my table, the spell Soul Cage requires a target of humanoid. But if I want to grab the soul of a lich as it dies and before it gets to phylactery, feels allowable with an appropriate DC, and perhaps if they research a variant.
I'm ok with it, because higher level spells aren't spammable. Cast 10 ray of frosts, in a min, can I duplicate Grease? no. Poison spray on food or a well? no.
The main reason for allowing a spell to work as written or not is if it would take away from another class or spell. If you want to light a hex on fire with Fire Bolt, the answer is no, use Create Bonfire. You want to burn out a lock with Acid Spray, no because locks are what lock picks and Rogues are for.
Use the spell that does the thing you want and don't steal another player's thunder.
”Bards”
steal thunder of rogue expertise
steal thunder of wizard in spells.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I'm fair certain most folks know the gist of my post.
In the end, it's GM choice. They have to keep in mind who can do what and be aware of how they can make everybody at the table feel included, not be a sideshow or shadow.
So...
if there’s no rogue. And no one proficient in lock picks....who’s thunder is being stolen?
i understand your gist. But you are also putting in details that don’t exist in the scenario, or were never said, etc. So, the “gist” here, you’re answering a different scenario than the one presented.
Although I agree with Nthal mostly, I do want my players to use their spells in a somewhat creative manner. I let them know that if they try to use a spell to perform something another spell/action can perform, it will often be less effective but may still work.
For the two examples:
Ray of Frost - Yeah, I would allow the floor to freeze over slightly but I might make the Save DC might only equal to half your Spell DC so that it would only need a save of 7, which is do-able for most people on a d20. That way, only people who really flop their roll fail. The players may feel smart for causing some of the guards to slide down the stairs but understand that another spell would have been better (I.e. Grease).
Acid Splash - Melting through the lock every time is cheating a bit so usually, I give a small challenge for the players. I'll have the player roll a d10, whilst I'll roll a d8. And the outcome determines their success. If my players match or exceed my roll, I'll drop the DC on the Thieves Tool check by the difference plus 1 (represented by having the handle melt off, partially exposing the lock), with a difference of 5 or more melting through the lock. If they lose to my roll, the handle just melts into twisted metal, with the thief being unable to access the lock anymore. Although they break through the lock, it has clearly been tampered with, whilst someone with thieves tools would leave almost no trace. So it provides incentive to use spells creatively but prevents them from abusing the mechanic (cos a melted lock might tip off the guards wink wink).
That challenge I use for the second example is something I came up with when one player tried to use Shape Water to freeze the water inside a door, in order to break it. I did the challenge, which he partially succeeded on, causing cracks in the door. This allowed the Barbarian to run right through it, and into a surprised-as-shit group of orcs, one of which almost immediately lost his head.
Additionally, if the GM puts a locked door in front of the party and they don't have archetypal lock pickers, he needs to be prepared to find some way for the party to get through it. Even in this case, I would probably not allow Acid Spray to work. It would then fall into how important is it for the party to get through the door, then present them with several options on how to get through it - a guard has it, somebody on the inside opens it, there is a different way past it, knock, limited charge skeleton key...whatever.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Additionally, if the GM puts a locked door in front of the party and they don't have archetypal lock pickers, he needs to be prepared to find some way for the party to get through it. Even in this case, I would probably not allow Acid Spray to work. It would then fall into how important is it for the party to get through the door, then present them with several options on how to get through it - a guard has it, somebody on the inside opens it, there is a different way past it, knock, limited charge skeleton key...whatever.
Unless it's a metal door, they could just...break it.
Additionally, if the GM puts a locked door in front of the party and they don't have archetypal lock pickers, he needs to be prepared to find some way for the party to get through it. Even in this case, I would probably not allow Acid Spray to work. It would then fall into how important is it for the party to get through the door, then present them with several options on how to get through it - a guard has it, somebody on the inside opens it, there is a different way past it, knock, limited charge skeleton key...whatever.
Unless it's a metal door, they could just...break it.
I'm sorry. The barbarian is not proficient in shoulder smash.
Additionally, if the GM puts a locked door in front of the party and they don't have archetypal lock pickers, he needs to be prepared to find some way for the party to get through it. Even in this case, I would probably not allow Acid Spray to work. It would then fall into how important is it for the party to get through the door, then present them with several options on how to get through it - a guard has it, somebody on the inside opens it, there is a different way past it, knock, limited charge skeleton key...whatever.
Unless it's a metal door, they could just...break it.
I'm sorry. The barbarian is not proficient in shoulder smash.
That last sentence...
”Bards”
steal thunder of rogue expertise
steal thunder of wizard in spells.
etc.
i dislike that as your example for the point. But do like your point, given good justification for the failures of stuff other than. “No. You can’t do that. Get lock picks”
because then you have the DM who goes “your lock picks will never work. You aren’t proficient in them”
Blank
“your lock picks will never work. You aren’t proficient in them”
This is funny b/c my group was about 3 attacks from group death, so the kids have their group merged with us for an hour to try and help us. One of the kids tried to pick the lock using an arrow. (Alas, 2 kids died a horrible death and another lost his 3D8 Diamond sword to our group before they were teleported away.)
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I'm fair certain most folks know the gist of my post.
In the end, it's GM choice. They have to keep in mind who can do what and be aware of how they can make everybody at the table feel included, not be a sideshow or shadow.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
IMHO Overloading the power of cantrips is a slippery slope. And I have allowed some cantrips and spells go slightly around the edges of the rules. Usually the decision is around, does it make for an interesting story and it is creative.
However I try to have some rules of thumb to be consistent.
Things I have done is use thaumaturgy harmless tremors to knock over a set of pots and pans in a sink as a distraction. Could have used Mage Hand...but I didn't. Using Move Earth to make a 10 foot wide trench by 60 feet in 2 minutes? Sure that's clear...but can I move the earth into a giant pile if I have an hour? I might be ok with that.
I really like the answer of "It might not work all the time, here's a DC." Making it a skill check is awesome. But I really don't like expanding the capability of CANTRIPS too far. I'm more inclined to on higher level spells. The limited resource spells (slots) are more appropriate for this.
(Yes this is off topic) Example that was discussed at my table, the spell Soul Cage requires a target of humanoid. But if I want to grab the soul of a lich as it dies and before it gets to phylactery, feels allowable with an appropriate DC, and perhaps if they research a variant.
I'm ok with it, because higher level spells aren't spammable. Cast 10 ray of frosts, in a min, can I duplicate Grease? no. Poison spray on food or a well? no.
So...
if there’s no rogue. And no one proficient in lock picks....who’s thunder is being stolen?
i understand your gist. But you are also putting in details that don’t exist in the scenario, or were never said, etc. So, the “gist” here, you’re answering a different scenario than the one presented.
Blank
Although I agree with Nthal mostly, I do want my players to use their spells in a somewhat creative manner. I let them know that if they try to use a spell to perform something another spell/action can perform, it will often be less effective but may still work.
For the two examples:
The players may feel smart for causing some of the guards to slide down the stairs but understand that another spell would have been better (I.e. Grease).
Although they break through the lock, it has clearly been tampered with, whilst someone with thieves tools would leave almost no trace. So it provides incentive to use spells creatively but prevents them from abusing the mechanic (cos a melted lock might tip off the guards wink wink).
That challenge I use for the second example is something I came up with when one player tried to use Shape Water to freeze the water inside a door, in order to break it. I did the challenge, which he partially succeeded on, causing cracks in the door. This allowed the Barbarian to run right through it, and into a surprised-as-shit group of orcs, one of which almost immediately lost his head.
Additionally, if the GM puts a locked door in front of the party and they don't have archetypal lock pickers, he needs to be prepared to find some way for the party to get through it. Even in this case, I would probably not allow Acid Spray to work. It would then fall into how important is it for the party to get through the door, then present them with several options on how to get through it - a guard has it, somebody on the inside opens it, there is a different way past it, knock, limited charge skeleton key...whatever.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Unless it's a metal door, they could just...break it.
I'm sorry. The barbarian is not proficient in shoulder smash.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Mine is, but only with metal doors.