I am will aware of this but here is the point. You the CASTER have casted a spell. The spell changed and removed all your feets and special ability. IT didn't remove your concentration on the spell THUS you are still concentrating THUS the feet interpose here. this Specific condition that you have advantage for concentrating on a spell overrule the other non stated warding.
War Caster feet would still be present for level 18 on a wildshaped druid they would be able to cast a spell as a reaction but they wouldent be able to cast a spell as a reaction if they are polymorphed.
this is how I see it. the wording is clear. that you are concentrating on a spell effect states before you gain the effects of polymorph OR true polymorph.
The wording of War Caster says when you can take the CON saving throw with advantage, and that is when you take damage, as any other CON save to maintain concentration.
Since in this case you take damage in beast form, the War Caster feat is not usable.
I am will aware of this but here is the point. You the CASTER have casted a spell. The spell changed and removed all your feets and special ability. IT didn't remove your concentration on the spell THUS you are still concentrating THUS the feet interpose here. this Specific condition that you have advantage for concentrating on a spell overrule the other non stated warding.
War Caster feet would still be present for level 18 on a wildshaped druid they would be able to cast a spell as a reaction but they wouldent be able to cast a spell as a reaction if they are polymorphed.
this is how I see it. the wording is clear. that you are concentrating on a spell effect states before you gain the effects of polymorph OR true polymorph.
I think what everyone is trying to clarify is that once you cast polymorph on self, you are no longer the CASTER in your example. You are the creature. Therefore you (as a creature) are concentrating on Polymorph. Nothing on your PC's character sheet applies once polymorphed. You can even extrapolate this further that you no longer can cast or concentrate on spells, so your polymorph would wear off at the end of the round.
I can appreciate what you are trying to go for, but it's clearly "Rule of Cool" and needs to okay with your DM. RAW/RAI doesn't support your proposal.
I am will aware of this but here is the point. You the CASTER have casted a spell. The spell changed and removed all your feets and special ability. IT didn't remove your concentration on the spell THUS you are still concentrating THUS the feet interpose here. this Specific condition that you have advantage for concentrating on a spell overrule the other non stated warding.
War Caster feet would still be present for level 18 on a wildshaped druid they would be able to cast a spell as a reaction but they wouldent be able to cast a spell as a reaction if they are polymorphed.
this is how I see it. the wording is clear. that you are concentrating on a spell effect states before you gain the effects of polymorph OR true polymorph.
Speaking from just the point of view that specific rules win out when disagreement is had with general rules, the casting [spell]polymorph[/quote] on yourself still doesn't let you keep the benefits of any feats, even ones that would normally benefit you casting spells.
Because the chain of general to specific is this: People can't cast spells > Spellcasting feature says you can > Some spells require concentration and there is a save made to keep it > war caster gives you advantage on any of those saves that show up > you cast polymorph.
The reason why that, rather than the feat being last in the chain, is the case is because the feat applies in more potential situations - any concentration check, rather than just one case - than the spell does (since the spell only applies in the singular specific case that it was cast).
If the caster stopped being a caster while they are polymorphed then he wont be able to maintain concentration on the spell in the first place.
I see the chain more like this : People can't cast spells > Spellcasting feature says you can > Some spells require concentration and there is a save made to keep it (You are concentrating on a spell) > war caster gives you advantage on any of those saves that show up.
Damage is damage whatever form you have takes it its still damage. Polymorph is a spell casted by the caster> they have Access to its concentration (they can Either end it at will or not)> they has advantage on the concentration check to maintain it. a caster casted True Polymorph> and they made it permanent> when the New form cast a spell that requires concentration>the new form doesnt get access to the feet because the new form is the one that is casting that spell.
I am not trying to bend the system that is the system as I see it with my Programmer Eyes. That is how I see it logically. if the caster stopped being a caster after casting polymorph then they wouldn't maintain concentration but that was clarified by mike miller that does not happen and they can still concentrate. when they are concentratng they have advantage on maintaining it when taking damage.
But I have asked Mike and Jeremy and waiting for them to tell me that I am right XD. but seriously this is my logic and this how I am going to rule it "and argue it with my DM -he gonna love it *says sarcastically*-"
Once polymorphed you don't have War Caster. It belongs to the previous form of your character. For example, let's say I'm your DM and have agreed to your polymorph logic.
First time, you successfully cast polymorph on SELF. You are now TARRASQUE. TARRASQUE still has WARCASTER as this was a passive ability of its previous form.
Next time, you successfully cast polymorph on ANCIENT BLUE DRAGON. It is now ANCIENT BLUE DUCK. ANCIENT BLUE DUCK still has LAIR ACTIONS, BREATH WEAPON, LEGENDARY ACTIONS as these were passive abilities for its previous form.
We can argue on language and RAW/RAI until we pass from old age. Easiest way to address this is if you would be okay with your DM using the same premise/logic against you.
P.S. - If someone has art of a duck breathing lightning and tail attacking an errant adventurer, I will use it as my picture for a month.
Once polymorphed you don't have War Caster. It belongs to the previous form of your character. For example, let's say I'm your DM and have agreed to your polymorph logic.
First time, you successfully cast polymorph on SELF. You are now TARRASQUE. TARRASQUE still has WARCASTER as this was a passive ability of its previous form.
Next time, you successfully cast polymorph on ANCIENT BLUE DRAGON. It is now ANCIENT BLUE DUCK. ANCIENT BLUE DUCK still has LAIR ACTIONS, BREATH WEAPON, LEGENDARY ACTIONS as these were passive abilities for its previous form.
We can argue on language and RAW/RAI until we pass from old age. Easiest way to address this is if you would be okay with your DM using the same premise/logic against you.
P.S. - If someone has art of a duck breathing lightning and tail attacking an errant adventurer, I will use it as my picture for a month.
I need to make that duck.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
If the caster stopped being a caster while they are polymorphed then he wont be able to maintain concentration on the spell in the first place.
No one has said anything about the caster not being a caster while they are polymorphed. Also, nothing in the system requires a character to be a caster to maintain concentration - for example, a magic item could have casting a spell as what happens when the item is used, have that spell be a concentration spell, and then also not include the clause that some items do which exempts the user from needing to concentrate even though it is a concentration spell (specifically, items like [magic item]brazier of commanding fire elementals[/magic item]
What is being said is that the effects of polymorph (or any other spell cast upon a character) is more specific than whatever the character's capabilities are like without that spell in effect. And I pointed out wildshape, which is pretty much just polymorph with a few additional caveats, to show that if the rules meant for anything about a character other than alignment and personality to remain the same then it would have actually said so (because D&D's rules never permit something by failing to explicitly forbid it, that's just not how they are written).
If the caster stopped being a caster while they are polymorphed then he wont be able to maintain concentration on the spell in the first place.
No one has said anything about the caster not being a caster while they are polymorphed. Also, nothing in the system requires a character to be a caster to maintain concentration - for example, a magic item could have casting a spell as what happens when the item is used, have that spell be a concentration spell, and then also not include the clause that some items do which exempts the user from needing to concentrate even though it is a concentration spell (specifically, items like [magic item]brazier of commanding fire elementals[/magic item]
What is being said is that the effects of polymorph (or any other spell cast upon a character) is more specific than whatever the character's capabilities are like without that spell in effect. And I pointed out wildshape, which is pretty much just polymorph with a few additional caveats, to show that if the rules meant for anything about a character other than alignment and personality to remain the same then it would have actually said so (because D&D's rules never permit something by failing to explicitly forbid it, that's just not how they are written).
I did mention the emphasized portion of your quote, but I will drop the point as it won't be a productive path to follow. I think we need to start/find a polymorph thread as this conversation is no longer about deciding Warcaster vs Resilient.
damn now I dont know which to chose again .... I mean if a spell have only S and V I cant use my shield and staff at the same time. geeee
Human variant moon druid checking in....I took BOTH. Resilient to start (human variant feat), and War Caster at 4th. I'll work on my stats starting at 8th. Have not failed a concentration check yet!! I don't use a lot of offensive spells, so save DC is less important for my character as well. Being both proficient + having advantage is nice and I get smacked a LOT!!
OK, I know Crawford has stated this many times, but IT MAKES NO SENSE.
1) If you can cast SM with gear, then casting S-only with gear is the same as casting SM with gear with a null material component. This is not just semantics. The focus provides the needed non-expendable M, and in the case of a spell without M, that is Nothing. As in the fact that there are no material components is the same as the focus providing a null component. ie S + (M=0) = S. So casting an S-only spell is the same as casting SM(null), which can be done with gear. So you can cast S-only with gear.
2) From another angle, think of what's happening. You can hold stuff in your hand that's needed for the spell (M), AND still be able to wave that hand in prescribed patterns to enact the magic (S). BUT if you have the VERY SAME STUFF (shield or whatnot) in your hand that's NOT needed right now, all of a sudden you get clutzy and can't wave the hand any more?! It's like You can walk outside perfectly well when you're wearing a hat AND IT'S RAINING, but if there's no rain and so no need for the hat all of a sudden you're tripping unless you take the hat (that was absolutely NO HINDERANCE before) off.
Either way it JUST MAKES NO SENSE as decreed. SM -> S!
The way I understand it magic is sensitive. you need to incant it the right way. I mean you can talk with a spoon in your mouth but it comes out wrong and distorted.... and you dont want that to happen with magic :D
again twitter is not a source for me even if Gygax himself was tweeting himself . if WotC want something to be canon post it in the companion . and when I looked I did see this lovely disaster XD .
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield (her material components) away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction. (SAC 1.14 , page 12)
welp .... this is not cool XD . all these spells ... geee :\ its not enough that some spells make no sense sometimes . specially Flame Blade I need a free hand and material components to use a blade made of fire ...... its dump its either on or the other !
I mean.. They are "offiical Clarifications" in most cases, nothing would be said if it wasn't for people being confused and asking.
I am will aware of this but here is the point. You the CASTER have casted a spell. The spell changed and removed all your feets and special ability. IT didn't remove your concentration on the spell THUS you are still concentrating THUS the feet interpose here. this Specific condition that you have advantage for concentrating on a spell overrule the other non stated warding.
War Caster feet would still be present for level 18 on a wildshaped druid they would be able to cast a spell as a reaction but they wouldent be able to cast a spell as a reaction if they are polymorphed.
this is how I see it. the wording is clear. that you are concentrating on a spell effect states before you gain the effects of polymorph OR true polymorph.
I think what everyone is trying to clarify is that once you cast polymorph on self, you are no longer the CASTER in your example. You are the creature. Therefore you (as a creature) are concentrating on Polymorph. Nothing on your PC's character sheet applies once polymorphed. You can even extrapolate this further that you no longer can cast or concentrate on spells, so your polymorph would wear off at the end of the round.
I can appreciate what you are trying to go for, but it's clearly "Rule of Cool" and needs to okay with your DM. RAW/RAI doesn't support your proposal.
All this says to me is if you need to concentrate to keep polymorph active then you can't cast on yourself. Logically, if you're an animal too dumb to concentrate on magic, how can you sustain yourself as a dumb animal?
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Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
The main problem with both is your ability scores can suffer. If you are not variant human and playing standard array or point buy you would be level 12 before your main attack ability gets to +4. Depending on your build and play style that might not be a problem but for most of the time it is a distinct disadvantage and one that is often great than the advantage of maximising your ability to maintain concentration.
If the spell need M and S components, yes you can use 1 hand holding the focus. But if it is just S, the hand has to be free. (this is relevant for Cure Wounds for example).
Not quite. The rule is that if the spell has M components then you need a free hand; if the spell has S components then you need a free hand; if it has both M and S components then you only need one free hand, not two. the same hand wrangles the components and makes the gestures (the wrangling of the components is part of the gestures required).
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I am will aware of this but here is the point. You the CASTER have casted a spell. The spell changed and removed all your feets and special ability. IT didn't remove your concentration on the spell THUS you are still concentrating THUS the feet interpose here. this Specific condition that you have advantage for concentrating on a spell overrule the other non stated warding.
War Caster feet would still be present for level 18 on a wildshaped druid they would be able to cast a spell as a reaction but they wouldent be able to cast a spell as a reaction if they are polymorphed.
this is how I see it. the wording is clear. that you are concentrating on a spell effect states before you gain the effects of polymorph OR true polymorph.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
The wording of War Caster says when you can take the CON saving throw with advantage, and that is when you take damage, as any other CON save to maintain concentration.
Since in this case you take damage in beast form, the War Caster feat is not usable.
If the caster stopped being a caster while they are polymorphed then he wont be able to maintain concentration on the spell in the first place.
I see the chain more like this : People can't cast spells > Spellcasting feature says you can > Some spells require concentration and there is a save made to keep it (You are concentrating on a spell) > war caster gives you advantage on any of those saves that show up.
Damage is damage whatever form you have takes it its still damage.
Polymorph is a spell casted by the caster> they have Access to its concentration (they can Either end it at will or not)> they has advantage on the concentration check to maintain it.
a caster casted True Polymorph> and they made it permanent> when the New form cast a spell that requires concentration>the new form doesnt get access to the feet because the new form is the one that is casting that spell.
I am not trying to bend the system that is the system as I see it with my Programmer Eyes. That is how I see it logically.
if the caster stopped being a caster after casting polymorph then they wouldn't maintain concentration but that was clarified by mike miller that does not happen and they can still concentrate.
when they are concentratng they have advantage on maintaining it when taking damage.
This is taking from
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/22/polymorph-concentration/
as he said that Polymorph does not interrupt the concentration of it target.
But I have asked Mike and Jeremy and waiting for them to tell me that I am right XD. but seriously this is my logic and this how I am going to rule it "and argue it with my DM -he gonna love it *says sarcastically*-"
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
Once polymorphed you don't have War Caster. It belongs to the previous form of your character. For example, let's say I'm your DM and have agreed to your polymorph logic.
First time, you successfully cast polymorph on SELF. You are now TARRASQUE. TARRASQUE still has WARCASTER as this was a passive ability of its previous form.
Next time, you successfully cast polymorph on ANCIENT BLUE DRAGON. It is now ANCIENT BLUE DUCK. ANCIENT BLUE DUCK still has LAIR ACTIONS, BREATH WEAPON, LEGENDARY ACTIONS as these were passive abilities for its previous form.
We can argue on language and RAW/RAI until we pass from old age. Easiest way to address this is if you would be okay with your DM using the same premise/logic against you.
P.S. - If someone has art of a duck breathing lightning and tail attacking an errant adventurer, I will use it as my picture for a month.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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No one has said anything about the caster not being a caster while they are polymorphed. Also, nothing in the system requires a character to be a caster to maintain concentration - for example, a magic item could have casting a spell as what happens when the item is used, have that spell be a concentration spell, and then also not include the clause that some items do which exempts the user from needing to concentrate even though it is a concentration spell (specifically, items like [magic item]brazier of commanding fire elementals[/magic item]
What is being said is that the effects of polymorph (or any other spell cast upon a character) is more specific than whatever the character's capabilities are like without that spell in effect. And I pointed out wildshape, which is pretty much just polymorph with a few additional caveats, to show that if the rules meant for anything about a character other than alignment and personality to remain the same then it would have actually said so (because D&D's rules never permit something by failing to explicitly forbid it, that's just not how they are written).
well of course XD but I am conflicted on which one to choose first.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
OK, I know Crawford has stated this many times, but IT MAKES NO SENSE.
1) If you can cast SM with gear, then casting S-only with gear is the same as casting SM with gear with a null material component. This is not just semantics. The focus provides the needed non-expendable M, and in the case of a spell without M, that is Nothing. As in the fact that there are no material components is the same as the focus providing a null component. ie S + (M=0) = S. So casting an S-only spell is the same as casting SM(null), which can be done with gear. So you can cast S-only with gear.
2) From another angle, think of what's happening. You can hold stuff in your hand that's needed for the spell (M), AND still be able to wave that hand in prescribed patterns to enact the magic (S). BUT if you have the VERY SAME STUFF (shield or whatnot) in your hand that's NOT needed right now, all of a sudden you get clutzy and can't wave the hand any more?! It's like You can walk outside perfectly well when you're wearing a hat AND IT'S RAINING, but if there's no rain and so no need for the hat all of a sudden you're tripping unless you take the hat (that was absolutely NO HINDERANCE before) off.
Either way it JUST MAKES NO SENSE as decreed. SM -> S!
Anyone can rule it as she/he likes, the logic behind that rule is that the caster needs only one free hand occupied for the casting.
The way I understand it magic is sensitive. you need to incant it the right way.
I mean you can talk with a spoon in your mouth but it comes out wrong and distorted.... and you dont want that to happen with magic :D
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
I mean.. They are "offiical Clarifications" in most cases, nothing would be said if it wasn't for people being confused and asking.
All this says to me is if you need to concentrate to keep polymorph active then you can't cast on yourself. Logically, if you're an animal too dumb to concentrate on magic, how can you sustain yourself as a dumb animal?
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
The real question is: "Why not both?" :D
The main problem with both is your ability scores can suffer. If you are not variant human and playing standard array or point buy you would be level 12 before your main attack ability gets to +4. Depending on your build and play style that might not be a problem but for most of the time it is a distinct disadvantage and one that is often great than the advantage of maximising your ability to maintain concentration.
Not quite. The rule is that if the spell has M components then you need a free hand; if the spell has S components then you need a free hand; if it has both M and S components then you only need one free hand, not two. the same hand wrangles the components and makes the gestures (the wrangling of the components is part of the gestures required).