As a DM generally I haven't played may characters, but I find the knowledge domain cleric to be a great character concept. I know it definitely doesn't seem to be a min/maxers choice, but I think the idea behind it is great. Below is my character concept, an almost skill-monkey build (hermit background, knowledge domain)
Greetings fellow adventurers. My name is Lander, Lander the Wise for those who would like specifics. I am here to spread the word of Our Lady of Silver, The Moonmaiden, Selune. As a cleric of her faith, it is my duty to gain all of the knowledge this world has to offer, and in doing so smite any evil foes that would not choose to come to the side of good. In my recent years of seclusion in an attempt to find myself and learn what the greater powers of this universe hold, I have discovered that knowledge is everything, and using it for anything other than the good for which Selune advises is indeed the wrong path and will lead to torment and destruction. Allow me to join you, and spread this faith of knowledge across the lands, and route out any evil that may stand in our way.
Human Variant option - feat (warcaster), proficiency in 1 skill (Persuasion), +1 to 2 ability scores Go for highest Wis > Con > Int > Str > Cha > Dex Chatoic Good alignment Being a cleric skills are Insight and History Knowledge domain gives 2 extra skills - Arcana, Nature Hermit Background -- gives skills medicine, religion
Knowledge expertise and on-demand skill proficiency are very nice, as are the wizard-lite spells and the detect thoughts ability. It suffers slightly from getting neither melee nor spellcasting bumps, but I've always thought it looked fun and flavourful. It's also a good multiclass dip for a Wizard looking to add mid-armour proficiency along with a few non-WIS divine spells and skill functionality without ditching concept - though at the end of the day you're almost better off just going Bard.
Yeah the point isn't necessarily to get as many skills possible, I realize a rogue and a bard would e much better at that. I enjoy the concept of creating the character and the interactions they would have, without competely crippling their abilities. As someone who optimizes fully in the video games/mmos i play I came to d&d with the mentality that I don't want to do that (not that there's anything wrong with it, it's also great fun).
I never thought of the wizard multiclass (mostly because I never think about multiclassing) but that is interesting too, a wizard/knowledge cleric seeking as much knowledge as possible, thus doing what he/she can and making whatever sacrifices beeded to gain more knowledge.
I've been playing a knowledge cleric in a campaign that I recently joined. I've found that the class is a surprisingly good force multiplier both in and out of combat. When coupled with the sage background they have extreme intelligence-gathering capabilities.
A recent example: the first game I ever played with my current group, we were fighting a pile of hobgoblins that had a troll on a leash. They had all just made it to level 3. So, on paper this was a rough encounter. However, right off the bat, my character had a +7 to arcana and religion, and a +5 to nature. At the opening of combat, I just looked at the DM and asked, "what do I know about trolls?" As I recall, it was a mediocre roll, but with the bonuses I was able to yell out, "hit it with fire or acid." We dropped the troll after round 3, and mopped up the rest of the hobgoblins.
Bonus: I was also able to Identify the magic great axe we found as well.
So I have nothing but nice things to say about the knowledge domain so far. If you're in a party that likes to plan, you can definitely wreck house.
It's also super fun RPing an insufferable know-it-all :)
I've played the Knowledge Cleric in an online game for the past few months now, and I can say that its been a lifesaver on several occasions. We had one situation where a princess was poisoned while clothes shopping, and I had to use the Channel Divinity to give myself proficiency in Medicine to diagnose it and recommend a course of action. As we were at 2nd level only, we didn't have the magical means to cure her from the poison. So the ability to provide emergency treatment saved her life. It was a great way to have a heroic moment without combat being involved.
Honestly, this is a great addition to a skill challenge heavy campaign. Whereas many people rely on a wizard's spells to circumvent challenges, the Knowledge Cleric can actually face the challenges head on and save those spells when they are really needed.
I'm currently running... well it's a Wizard but I took my first level in Knowledge Cleric. This gave me a better hit die, armor proficiency, more spells prepared... the rest of my levels are Wizard.
I actually feel like I'm much more of a Wizard then most wizards (I KNOW things...) I think it's lame Wizards only have 2 normal skills.
As a human I have 7 skills now and expertise in two. I'm trained in: Acrobatics, History, Investigation, Perception, and Religion with Expertise in Arcana and Nature. I was initially going to take Observant with an Owl familiar so I see all and know all. I decided against this as it really wasn't all that amazing.
I find the prepared Cleric list for knowledge to be pretty lame. Identity is far worse then always have Detect Magic. Command is OK, but I feel like "why?"
The Channel Divinity seems cool, but also very situational... proficiency in a skill or tool for 10 minutes. I don't know how often you need tool use and especially only for such a short duration.
I think Potent Casting is an AWFUL feature, because there is only a single Cleric damaging cantrip... So I hope you like Sacred Flame and they fail the saving throw.
Identify is nice, but it's not very practical at 1st level. I mean, how many times are you going to have the material component required at that level, it will be a short while before you can actually use it.
The Channel Divinity is totally situational, but has potential to be pretty cool. I think in a game I would DM it would be useful, because I might have some sort of obstacle with old tools left behind that are needed, say the group needs to reforge something simple like a broken key, and they are at an ancient forge with the previous occupants tools still about, but none are proficient with them. They have the means to reforge the key, and can certainly try, but the Knowledge cleric would be able to be proficient with the tools and have better chance at success. Similarly you can walk around carrying several different tools (such as thieves tools, or an herbalist kit) and then on demand 1/day you can try to pick a lock if you don't have a rogue or something.
I think the knowledge cleric is a great idea for a very RP heavy, high social interaction, puzzles, etc. and low combat. Unfortunately the game I'm playing my Knowledge Cleric in is basically a straight combat game -- which is great and tons of fun nonetheless (currently the only in-person game I play). However if I had known that going into it I likely would have chosen something different (either a different domain or a different class altogether).
The Potent Casting point is very true -- I hadn't really considered that or realized there was only 1 cleric damaging cantrip (2 now if you include XGTE with Word of Radiance which we aren't)
The Knowledge domain seems really fun for those that take role-playing seriously and want to learn more of the world, but I see people who scoff at that idea and go straight for combat focused domains. I personally would give this a shot but I had to homebrew the subclass a bit to make it more potent as a choice at later levels (by making the Potent Spellcasting feature at lvl 8 more useful and some other small nitpicks)
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
I guess I don't see why the potent cantrips is that weak, but I do enjoy having some subclasses that are really interesting for some more roleplay content vs being the big boom caster. I am curious what you changed for it did you give it a bonus to DC for cantrips or something?
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I don't think Potent Cantrips itself is weak, the problem is it only has an effect on 1 spell, meaning you have to take that spell as a cantrip if this feature means anything to you at all, otherwise it's completely meaningless. Then again, that is the case for Arcana, Grave, and Light domains as well as they have the same class feature so it isn't unique to Knowledge Domain.
I don't think Potent Cantrips itself is weak, the problem is it only has an effect on 1 spell, meaning you have to take that spell as a cantrip.
I did not think about the fact that they have access to a very limited number of damaging cantrips. If you are playing with Xanathar's I think you have three options for damaging cleric cantrips which is still a bit punishing if you do not have access to it. Hmmm is the fact that very few enemies have resistance to radiant energy enough of an offset? I don't know.
If anyone in my groups picked that I might give them a bonus cantrip from an appropriate class at level 8.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I don't think Potent Cantrips itself is weak, the problem is it only has an effect on 1 spell, meaning you have to take that spell as a cantrip.
I did not think about the fact that they have access to a very limited number of damaging cantrips. If you are playing with Xanathar's I think you have three options for damaging cleric cantrips which is still a bit punishing if you do not have access to it. Hmmm is the fact that very few enemies have resistance to radiant energy enough of an offset? I don't know.
If anyone in my groups picked that I might give them a bonus cantrip from an appropriate class at level 8.
I'm not sure as well. I didn't even notice that until FMB pointed it out above. I'm playing my knowledge cleric currently, but only at level 4. I honestly haven't played enough to look past beyond level 5 or 6 with any class so never really bothered/thought of that, but I totally see the issue if you don't "plan" for this ahead of time (and hadn't taken the one damaging cantrip, or 1 of the 3 if you include the 2 from XGTE).
My other problem with Cleric Cantrips is that they they are all Save Or.
Sacred Flame is 60' and DEX
Toll of the Dead is 60' and WIS
Word of Radiance is 5' AoE and CON.
My bias, but I'm less enamored with Save Or spells then I am To Hit spells for a few reasons.
There are more ways to gain Adv on an attack then there are to give an enemy Dis on a Save.
This is going to weight To Hit spells as being more advantageous then Save Ors.
Surprise, Allies giving Help Action, Optional Flanking Rules, etc...
IF your a primary caster and focus on getting your casting stat up I personally believe Prof + Mod to hit is going to scale better against AC then Save OR.
There are more edge cases against Save Or. If a Cleric if fighting a Rogue or someone with Shield Master and all he has is Sacred Flame it's going to feel disempowering.
Yes, the heavy armor fighter with Dex 8 or 10 is going to have +0 with a 20 AC.
Monster Page shows 6 pages with Dex Proficiency
Monster Page shows 8 pages with Con Proficiency
Monster Page shows 11 pages with Wis Proficiency
I'm a big fan of player agency and I think players (in general) *enjoy* rolling to hit more then making the GM roll a save... In addition there are more abilities that trigger off of an attack roll (Halfings). I believe that Fun factor gives a preference to To Hit spells.
There are no easy ways to boost your ability to make the Save harder. The magic items that do so are limited usually to Warlock and or very expensive.
Compare this to buying a +1 Weapon is Uncommon, gets your stat bonus and magic to hit and damage.
You can get +1 to a finesse weapon if you have a low strength and high dex
You can get something a magic club and if you get access to shillelagh you're dealing your Wis in hit and damage.
I think Potent Spellcasting is subpar compared to Divine Strike because:
A Cleric with Divine Strike increases his damage by 1d8 at lvl 8 and 2d8 at lvl 14. It scales with lvl.
Potent Spellcasting only increases damage by your WIS at 8th, they get no feature at 14th.
IF they got access to the Evocation Wizard's version of Potent Cantrip, at least your attack would ALWAYS do (half) damage, but it's WIS damage on a failed save instead.
as Mehetmet said if you don't plan ahead and buy Sacred Flame (or others IF you have XgtE) then you're pretty screwed. I rate this ability off of the PhB because that's what they decided it was OK to ship it with.
WRT radiant damage, it's rarely resisted (except largely by celestials you'd be unlikely to be conflicting with) and sometimes has lovely riders, like stopping zombies from getting up or vampires from regenerating.
WRT saving throw cantrips, all of what Bunny says is reasonable, but it's worth considering that they work well even if the Cleric is surrounded, as opposed to ranged attack cantrips, which have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5'. Would definitely help to have a bit more choice, like giving an extra attack cantrip to each caster domain (e.g., Fire Bolt for Light, Chill Touch for Grave, Ray of Frost for Knowledge?). On the other hand, by level 7 most Knowledge Clerics will be doing gods' work with Guiding Bolt most turns.
As a DM generally I haven't played may characters, but I find the knowledge domain cleric to be a great character concept. I know it definitely doesn't seem to be a min/maxers choice, but I think the idea behind it is great. Below is my character concept, an almost skill-monkey build (hermit background, knowledge domain)
Greetings fellow adventurers. My name is Lander, Lander the Wise for those who would like specifics. I am here to spread the word of Our Lady of Silver, The Moonmaiden, Selune. As a cleric of her faith, it is my duty to gain all of the knowledge this world has to offer, and in doing so smite any evil foes that would not choose to come to the side of good. In my recent years of seclusion in an attempt to find myself and learn what the greater powers of this universe hold, I have discovered that knowledge is everything, and using it for anything other than the good for which Selune advises is indeed the wrong path and will lead to torment and destruction. Allow me to join you, and spread this faith of knowledge across the lands, and route out any evil that may stand in our way.
Human Variant option - feat (warcaster), proficiency in 1 skill (Persuasion), +1 to 2 ability scores
Go for highest Wis > Con > Int > Str > Cha > Dex
Chatoic Good alignment
Being a cleric skills are Insight and History
Knowledge domain gives 2 extra skills - Arcana, Nature
Hermit Background -- gives skills medicine, religion
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Knowledge expertise and on-demand skill proficiency are very nice, as are the wizard-lite spells and the detect thoughts ability. It suffers slightly from getting neither melee nor spellcasting bumps, but I've always thought it looked fun and flavourful. It's also a good multiclass dip for a Wizard looking to add mid-armour proficiency along with a few non-WIS divine spells and skill functionality without ditching concept - though at the end of the day you're almost better off just going Bard.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Yeah the point isn't necessarily to get as many skills possible, I realize a rogue and a bard would e much better at that. I enjoy the concept of creating the character and the interactions they would have, without competely crippling their abilities. As someone who optimizes fully in the video games/mmos i play I came to d&d with the mentality that I don't want to do that (not that there's anything wrong with it, it's also great fun).
I never thought of the wizard multiclass (mostly because I never think about multiclassing) but that is interesting too, a wizard/knowledge cleric seeking as much knowledge as possible, thus doing what he/she can and making whatever sacrifices beeded to gain more knowledge.
thanks for the input!
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
I've been playing a knowledge cleric in a campaign that I recently joined. I've found that the class is a surprisingly good force multiplier both in and out of combat. When coupled with the sage background they have extreme intelligence-gathering capabilities.
A recent example: the first game I ever played with my current group, we were fighting a pile of hobgoblins that had a troll on a leash. They had all just made it to level 3. So, on paper this was a rough encounter. However, right off the bat, my character had a +7 to arcana and religion, and a +5 to nature. At the opening of combat, I just looked at the DM and asked, "what do I know about trolls?" As I recall, it was a mediocre roll, but with the bonuses I was able to yell out, "hit it with fire or acid." We dropped the troll after round 3, and mopped up the rest of the hobgoblins.
Bonus: I was also able to Identify the magic great axe we found as well.
So I have nothing but nice things to say about the knowledge domain so far. If you're in a party that likes to plan, you can definitely wreck house.
It's also super fun RPing an insufferable know-it-all :)
I've played the Knowledge Cleric in an online game for the past few months now, and I can say that its been a lifesaver on several occasions. We had one situation where a princess was poisoned while clothes shopping, and I had to use the Channel Divinity to give myself proficiency in Medicine to diagnose it and recommend a course of action. As we were at 2nd level only, we didn't have the magical means to cure her from the poison. So the ability to provide emergency treatment saved her life. It was a great way to have a heroic moment without combat being involved.
Honestly, this is a great addition to a skill challenge heavy campaign. Whereas many people rely on a wizard's spells to circumvent challenges, the Knowledge Cleric can actually face the challenges head on and save those spells when they are really needed.
I'm currently running... well it's a Wizard but I took my first level in Knowledge Cleric. This gave me a better hit die, armor proficiency, more spells prepared... the rest of my levels are Wizard.
I actually feel like I'm much more of a Wizard then most wizards (I KNOW things...) I think it's lame Wizards only have 2 normal skills.
As a human I have 7 skills now and expertise in two. I'm trained in: Acrobatics, History, Investigation, Perception, and Religion with Expertise in Arcana and Nature.
I was initially going to take Observant with an Owl familiar so I see all and know all. I decided against this as it really wasn't all that amazing.
I find the prepared Cleric list for knowledge to be pretty lame. Identity is far worse then always have Detect Magic. Command is OK, but I feel like "why?"
The Channel Divinity seems cool, but also very situational... proficiency in a skill or tool for 10 minutes. I don't know how often you need tool use and especially only for such a short duration.
I think Potent Casting is an AWFUL feature, because there is only a single Cleric damaging cantrip... So I hope you like Sacred Flame and they fail the saving throw.
Identify is nice, but it's not very practical at 1st level. I mean, how many times are you going to have the material component required at that level, it will be a short while before you can actually use it.
The Channel Divinity is totally situational, but has potential to be pretty cool. I think in a game I would DM it would be useful, because I might have some sort of obstacle with old tools left behind that are needed, say the group needs to reforge something simple like a broken key, and they are at an ancient forge with the previous occupants tools still about, but none are proficient with them. They have the means to reforge the key, and can certainly try, but the Knowledge cleric would be able to be proficient with the tools and have better chance at success. Similarly you can walk around carrying several different tools (such as thieves tools, or an herbalist kit) and then on demand 1/day you can try to pick a lock if you don't have a rogue or something.
I think the knowledge cleric is a great idea for a very RP heavy, high social interaction, puzzles, etc. and low combat. Unfortunately the game I'm playing my Knowledge Cleric in is basically a straight combat game -- which is great and tons of fun nonetheless (currently the only in-person game I play). However if I had known that going into it I likely would have chosen something different (either a different domain or a different class altogether).
The Potent Casting point is very true -- I hadn't really considered that or realized there was only 1 cleric damaging cantrip (2 now if you include XGTE with Word of Radiance which we aren't)
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
The Knowledge domain seems really fun for those that take role-playing seriously and want to learn more of the world, but I see people who scoff at that idea and go straight for combat focused domains. I personally would give this a shot but I had to homebrew the subclass a bit to make it more potent as a choice at later levels (by making the Potent Spellcasting feature at lvl 8 more useful and some other small nitpicks)
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
I guess I don't see why the potent cantrips is that weak, but I do enjoy having some subclasses that are really interesting for some more roleplay content vs being the big boom caster. I am curious what you changed for it did you give it a bonus to DC for cantrips or something?
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I don't think Potent Cantrips itself is weak, the problem is it only has an effect on 1 spell, meaning you have to take that spell as a cantrip if this feature means anything to you at all, otherwise it's completely meaningless. Then again, that is the case for Arcana, Grave, and Light domains as well as they have the same class feature so it isn't unique to Knowledge Domain.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
My other problem with Cleric Cantrips is that they they are all Save Or.
My bias, but I'm less enamored with Save Or spells then I am To Hit spells for a few reasons.
I think Potent Spellcasting is subpar compared to Divine Strike because:
IF they got access to the Evocation Wizard's version of Potent Cantrip, at least your attack would ALWAYS do (half) damage, but it's WIS damage on a failed save instead.
as Mehetmet said if you don't plan ahead and buy Sacred Flame (or others IF you have XgtE) then you're pretty screwed. I rate this ability off of the PhB because that's what they decided it was OK to ship it with.
WRT radiant damage, it's rarely resisted (except largely by celestials you'd be unlikely to be conflicting with) and sometimes has lovely riders, like stopping zombies from getting up or vampires from regenerating.
WRT saving throw cantrips, all of what Bunny says is reasonable, but it's worth considering that they work well even if the Cleric is surrounded, as opposed to ranged attack cantrips, which have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5'. Would definitely help to have a bit more choice, like giving an extra attack cantrip to each caster domain (e.g., Fire Bolt for Light, Chill Touch for Grave, Ray of Frost for Knowledge?). On the other hand, by level 7 most Knowledge Clerics will be doing gods' work with Guiding Bolt most turns.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Well, you know, they do get an ASI at the same level.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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