I honestly don't see why fists should be as deadly as weapons.
I get your point, but you're approaching this from an incorrect viewpoint to understand the argument for fists being as powerful as weapons. I don't see how the average commoner, with a 10 in strength, can lift 300 pounds, or how a crab could kill a healthy commoner.
Some aspects of D&D are unrealistic for the purpose of simplicity.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
It's not an incorrect viewpoint. It's a viewpoint you disagree with. There's a lot about this game that's not realistic. What I am never, ever going to do, is houserule things so it's even more unrealistic, without good reason. I will house rule things that are unintentionally bad. I don't believe that fist fighters are supposed to be overly viable concepts, so I am not going to houserule them.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Honestly I see no harm in it at all there's not really a official ruling on this that's why We're all here And like everyone says talk to your DM Only he/she can decide really. But if we apply the same logic that went into all the other weapons That are already established. The traits that would be applied to hands Would be as follows
Natural weapon ( Simple, hand)
Category: Body
Damage: 1d6
Damage type: Bludgeoning
Properties: Light
weight: 0
Now this is going off the logic of light weapons have that property because they weigh very little and can move fast in the hand. Because they weigh so little they do less damage. Applying this logic leads at least me to the conclusion. That if you have nothing in your hand it weighs nothing And can move very fast. Now how you increase damage With weapons Is through class features Magical weapons And feats. Seeing as this is a part of the fighter class A feature I would not argue with the damage of 1D8 And I would allow the bonus action attack. But on the bonus action I would not apply the Damage modifier. Like I do with the rest of the light weapons Plus To get the extra 2 points of damage I believe it is balanced because the player has to give up 2 points of AC Something that is very precious and hard to get inside the game. And if you're worried about this class stepping on the toes of a monk This happens with a lot of different subclasses Because there is so many there is overlap And there is only so many ways you can attack a creature with so many different weapons But basically it's still the same Whether I use my fist Or I pick up the Dual wield Being a variant human At level one And use 2 Long swords. And if you would To help your monk Allow them to add their ability modifier To their fluria blows I believe most people already do That will allow it to do more damage and keep the monk as Its own individual thing. Plus another reason why people will choose monk is because their fists become magical There is no guarantee with the fighter unless they get magical gauntlets and that is up to your DM.
This fighter has armor and they considered that A fist inside of a gauntlet Is basically a hammer. Even a knife or a dagger relies on a person's strength And technique. So you apply the right technique and the right strength You can literally cave someone's skull in this happens in real life all the time. And when it comes to an armored opponent in real life a full suit of armor a sword slashing ability Is actually really not effective at all And if it helps you it would make sense for a person who uses their hands as weapons To have specialized gauntlet Made to do bludgeoning damage Reinforced And yes it may not kill the Outright But broken bones Such As the ribs the collar bone The Skull An opponent eventually wears down and cannot fight any further Like in every movie beaten to a bloody pulp just sitting there waiting to die and can't move Not only to mention Oregon's internal injuries as well People die all the time from bludgeoning damage due to being beaten Anyway this is taking a very dark turn I'm sorry about that I would like to end this on everyone's allowed to have their Own point of view This one's just mine And it doesn't mean that yours is wrong or mine is wrong All it means is That we see things in a different way
Dip 2 lvls in Monk. Flurry of Blows. Problem solved.
That does literally nothing. Monk fists aren't weapons either.
I'm not sure what you are saying. If the OP is a fighter making an unarmed strike as an attack, Flurry of Blows lets you make 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
To all the people saying "just dip a Monk level if you want a Monk feature", mind that Monk 1's Martial Arts feature (which is where the unarmed BA attack comes from) can only be used while not wearing armor... which kinda kills the idea for a Fighter-main that's probably using their heavy armor. So even if they wanted to "spend" a level to get this ability (which is a reasonable tradeoff, imo), they still can't.
I reckon there's two, maybe three apparent options:
Unarmed Fighting Style be written as "Each of your hands, while not wielding a weapon or a shield, can be considered a Light weapon with a 1d6 bludgeoning damage die". Maybe restrict it to "while you're wearing heavy armor" if you really want to flavor it as "you can only do this much damage because you have heavy gauntlets on" but that seems a bit overly prescriptive to me. (Does that make (a particular build for) Fighter 1 a bit stronger than Monk 1, at something that "should" be a Monk-y thing? Maybe, though I'm not entirely convinced. If so, that says more about how Monk is criminally underpowered than anything about Fighter, though, imo.)
Make the BA unarmed strike from Monk a standalone feature instead of a part of Martial Arts, and bump all the martial arts dice up one level, so they start at 1d6 and end at 1d12. (That puts Monk 1 on par with Fighter 1, and allows a wannabe pugilist Fighter to dip a Monk level without needing to forgo their armor.)
Wrap it into a feat somewhere? Feats have seen a fair bit of power creep since at least Tasha's, so buffing a PHB feat by adding this capability to one doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Grappler desperately needs a rewrite, so maybe stick it in there.
To all the people saying "just dip a Monk level if you want a Monk feature", mind that Monk 1's Martial Arts feature (which is where the unarmed BA attack comes from) can only be used while not wearing armor... which kinda kills the idea for a Fighter-main that's probably using their heavy armor. So even if they wanted to "spend" a level to get this ability (which is a reasonable tradeoff, imo), they still can't.
I reckon there's two, maybe three apparent options:
Unarmed Fighting Style be written as "Each of your hands, while not wielding a weapon or a shield, can be considered a Light weapon with a 1d6 bludgeoning damage die". Maybe restrict it to "while you're wearing heavy armor" if you really want to flavor it as "you can only do this much damage because you have heavy gauntlets on" but that seems a bit overly prescriptive to me. (Does that make (a particular build for) Fighter 1 a bit stronger than Monk 1, at something that "should" be a Monk-y thing? Maybe, though I'm not entirely convinced. If so, that says more about how Monk is criminally underpowered than anything about Fighter, though, imo.)
Make the BA unarmed strike from Monk a standalone feature instead of a part of Martial Arts, and bump all the martial arts dice up one level, so they start at 1d6 and end at 1d12. (That puts Monk 1 on par with Fighter 1, and allows a wannabe pugilist Fighter to dip a Monk level without needing to forgo their armor.)
Wrap it into a feat somewhere? Feats have seen a fair bit of power creep since at least Tasha's, so buffing a PHB feat by adding this capability to one doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Grappler desperately needs a rewrite, so maybe stick it in there.
Except that if you go Monk 2 you get Flurry of Blows, which uses a Ki point and does not require you to be naked.
Ah yes, wasting two entire levels in order to get a mediocre offhand attack... twice a day.
Not really, those two levels give you 4 unarmed attacks per short rest (and other things that this fighter can't use because it's using armor). Granted, it's not the best way to get additional attacks and you lose 1 ASI and extra attack (3), but it certainly is not that bad.
Isn't what this is all about??? 3rd-level monk feature If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
Isn't what this is all about??? 3rd-level monk feature If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
This thread is about the fighter's unarmed fighting style and why it should/should not replicate the bonus action attack from the monk's martial arts feature from lvl 1.
What you are referring to is Tasha's optional rule for monks Ki-Fueled Attack, which is meant for monks that use their action on something that does not involve an attack (like any pseudo-casting of the Four Elements monk) or if for when the monk may want to use their weapon instead of their unarmed strikes for the bonus action attack.
With the new Unarmed Fighting Style that has come out with Tasha's, there is a question that has been brought up by a few people regarding if you can take the attack action make your unarmed strike and then bonus action unarmed strike again. I know that the monk's martial art ability specifically states that you can do this but I am curious if you would be able to do so as your first have now become your weapons. I am aware the fighting style doesn't actually make them weapons but seeing as you have two fists that you use as weapons and two weapon fighting involves fighting with two weapons, I was curious if anyone knows if you can actually make a bonus action attack with your offhand but lack the Mod in damage.
If no one knows RAW if this would be allowed or not then I'm curious what you would rule as a DM if you would allow it or not?
I would say no, however I will note that getting the Tavern Brawler feat with unarmed fighting style is awesome and allows a bonus action grapple. If your DM allows grappling prone creatures this creats a lot of opportunities once multiattack comes online.
Start with Human, Tavern Brawler and 17 strength, take Skill Expert-Athletcs and boost strength to 18. Then at level 5 you use your first attack to knock prone, your second attack (with advantage) to stomp on him or whatever and finally an unarmed strike and then your third attack to grapple so he can't get up. With expertise you will very rarely fail this.
If you go Rune Knight you can even combine it with Giants might to grapple huge creatures - Knock that dragon to the ground, then put him in a headlock.
Another thing I like to do with Giants might is when I am large grapple a small creature and use the creature as an improvised weapon, damaging both the creature and the target. That last one is probably stretching the rules a bit.
this is really the ultimate Judo/martial arts build in my opinion.
The thing I think is the craziest about this is that in Tasha’s they put a build for a brawler as well as a pugilist. Both would assume you don’t use weapons by their names alone. They both have unarmed fighting as fighting styles. That gives the fighter, specifically Battle Master subclass, an actual model to use for their build. Has anyone ever really studied unarmed combat? Tell a young Mike Tyson he can’t hit you twice as hard as he could and he’d prove you wrong. Muhammad Ali or any other boxer will tell you the same. Look at MMA fighters, are they monks? Heck no they’re not. Yet if you want to style your fighter off of one you’re told no because the rules say you hands aren’t weapons AFTER taking the time and training to make them effective enough to do enough damage as a sword axe club etc… no way! D8 BA D8 especially if they took dual wielder or two weapon fighting on top of it. That’s dedicated training time not just words. Who fights with a shield and no weapon punching? Historically? Romans, Persians, Greeks, who? No one. By saying unarmed fighters who take the style unarmed fighting can’t take that BA at D8 is really doing a disservice to their build.
I am a fighter. I don’t seek enlightenment, I have trained years to crush my enemies by hand because weapons have been outlawed to my people. Hands as hard as stone, I break my enemies.
nope sorry, you’re not a monk. You can kinda break things. Too bad you couldn’t have trained in weapons you’d be a bit more effective. Why not use two rapiers?
I took 5 levels of Monk and now changing to Fighter level 1 Fightinh style Unarmed my AC come from my Dex & Wis as a monk, continueing up as a fighter will increas all my ASI , since fighters get them more often than other classes. I predict hwe will be awesome as a Monk of the Open hand pounding his way to glory. lol
I took 5 levels of Monk and now changing to Fighter level 1 Fightinh style Unarmed my AC come from my Dex & Wis as a monk, continueing up as a fighter will increas all my ASI , since fighters get them more often than other classes. I predict hwe will be awesome as a Monk of the Open hand pounding his way to glory. lol
I get your point, but you're approaching this from an incorrect viewpoint to understand the argument for fists being as powerful as weapons. I don't see how the average commoner, with a 10 in strength, can lift 300 pounds, or how a crab could kill a healthy commoner.
Some aspects of D&D are unrealistic for the purpose of simplicity.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's not an incorrect viewpoint. It's a viewpoint you disagree with. There's a lot about this game that's not realistic. What I am never, ever going to do, is houserule things so it's even more unrealistic, without good reason. I will house rule things that are unintentionally bad. I don't believe that fist fighters are supposed to be overly viable concepts, so I am not going to houserule them.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Honestly I see no harm in it at all there's not really a official ruling on this that's why We're all here And like everyone says talk to your DM Only he/she can decide really. But if we apply the same logic that went into all the other weapons That are already established. The traits that would be applied to hands Would be as follows
Natural weapon ( Simple, hand)
Category: Body
Damage: 1d6
Damage type: Bludgeoning
Properties: Light
weight: 0
Now this is going off the logic of light weapons have that property because they weigh very little and can move fast in the hand. Because they weigh so little they do less damage. Applying this logic leads at least me to the conclusion. That if you have nothing in your hand it weighs nothing And can move very fast. Now how you increase damage With weapons Is through class features Magical weapons And feats. Seeing as this is a part of the fighter class A feature I would not argue with the damage of 1D8 And I would allow the bonus action attack. But on the bonus action I would not apply the Damage modifier. Like I do with the rest of the light weapons Plus To get the extra 2 points of damage I believe it is balanced because the player has to give up 2 points of AC Something that is very precious and hard to get inside the game. And if you're worried about this class stepping on the toes of a monk This happens with a lot of different subclasses Because there is so many there is overlap And there is only so many ways you can attack a creature with so many different weapons But basically it's still the same Whether I use my fist Or I pick up the Dual wield Being a variant human At level one And use 2 Long swords. And if you would To help your monk Allow them to add their ability modifier To their fluria blows I believe most people already do That will allow it to do more damage and keep the monk as Its own individual thing. Plus another reason why people will choose monk is because their fists become magical There is no guarantee with the fighter unless they get magical gauntlets and that is up to your DM.
This fighter has armor and they considered that A fist inside of a gauntlet Is basically a hammer. Even a knife or a dagger relies on a person's strength And technique. So you apply the right technique and the right strength You can literally cave someone's skull in this happens in real life all the time. And when it comes to an armored opponent in real life a full suit of armor a sword slashing ability Is actually really not effective at all And if it helps you it would make sense for a person who uses their hands as weapons To have specialized gauntlet Made to do bludgeoning damage Reinforced And yes it may not kill the Outright But broken bones Such As the ribs the collar bone The Skull An opponent eventually wears down and cannot fight any further Like in every movie beaten to a bloody pulp just sitting there waiting to die and can't move Not only to mention Oregon's internal injuries as well People die all the time from bludgeoning damage due to being beaten Anyway this is taking a very dark turn I'm sorry about that I would like to end this on everyone's allowed to have their Own point of view This one's just mine And it doesn't mean that yours is wrong or mine is wrong All it means is That we see things in a different way
Dip 2 lvls in Monk. Flurry of Blows. Problem solved.
I'm not sure what you are saying. If the OP is a fighter making an unarmed strike as an attack, Flurry of Blows lets you make 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
To all the people saying "just dip a Monk level if you want a Monk feature", mind that Monk 1's Martial Arts feature (which is where the unarmed BA attack comes from) can only be used while not wearing armor... which kinda kills the idea for a Fighter-main that's probably using their heavy armor. So even if they wanted to "spend" a level to get this ability (which is a reasonable tradeoff, imo), they still can't.
I reckon there's two, maybe three apparent options:
Except that if you go Monk 2 you get Flurry of Blows, which uses a Ki point and does not require you to be naked.
Ah yes, wasting two entire levels in order to get a mediocre offhand attack... twice a day.
Not really, those two levels give you 4 unarmed attacks per short rest (and other things that this fighter can't use because it's using armor). Granted, it's not the best way to get additional attacks and you lose 1 ASI and extra attack (3), but it certainly is not that bad.
Isn't what this is all about??? 3rd-level monk feature
If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
This thread is about the fighter's unarmed fighting style and why it should/should not replicate the bonus action attack from the monk's martial arts feature from lvl 1.
What you are referring to is Tasha's optional rule for monks Ki-Fueled Attack, which is meant for monks that use their action on something that does not involve an attack (like any pseudo-casting of the Four Elements monk) or if for when the monk may want to use their weapon instead of their unarmed strikes for the bonus action attack.
Thank you
I would say no, however I will note that getting the Tavern Brawler feat with unarmed fighting style is awesome and allows a bonus action grapple. If your DM allows grappling prone creatures this creats a lot of opportunities once multiattack comes online.
Start with Human, Tavern Brawler and 17 strength, take Skill Expert-Athletcs and boost strength to 18. Then at level 5 you use your first attack to knock prone, your second attack (with advantage) to stomp on him or whatever and finally an unarmed strike and then your third attack to grapple so he can't get up. With expertise you will very rarely fail this.
If you go Rune Knight you can even combine it with Giants might to grapple huge creatures - Knock that dragon to the ground, then put him in a headlock.
Another thing I like to do with Giants might is when I am large grapple a small creature and use the creature as an improvised weapon, damaging both the creature and the target. That last one is probably stretching the rules a bit.
this is really the ultimate Judo/martial arts build in my opinion.
The thing I think is the craziest about this is that in Tasha’s they put a build for a brawler as well as a pugilist. Both would assume you don’t use weapons by their names alone. They both have unarmed fighting as fighting styles. That gives the fighter, specifically Battle Master subclass, an actual model to use for their build. Has anyone ever really studied unarmed combat? Tell a young Mike Tyson he can’t hit you twice as hard as he could and he’d prove you wrong. Muhammad Ali or any other boxer will tell you the same. Look at MMA fighters, are they monks? Heck no they’re not. Yet if you want to style your fighter off of one you’re told no because the rules say you hands aren’t weapons AFTER taking the time and training to make them effective enough to do enough damage as a sword axe club etc… no way! D8 BA D8 especially if they took dual wielder or two weapon fighting on top of it. That’s dedicated training time not just words. Who fights with a shield and no weapon punching? Historically? Romans, Persians, Greeks, who? No one. By saying unarmed fighters who take the style unarmed fighting can’t take that BA at D8 is really doing a disservice to their build.
I am a fighter. I don’t seek enlightenment, I have trained years to crush my enemies by hand because weapons have been outlawed to my people. Hands as hard as stone, I break my enemies.
nope sorry, you’re not a monk. You can kinda break things. Too bad you couldn’t have trained in weapons you’d be a bit more effective. Why not use two rapiers?
I took 5 levels of Monk and now changing to Fighter level 1 Fightinh style Unarmed my AC come from my Dex & Wis as a monk, continueing up as a fighter will increas all my ASI , since fighters get them more often than other classes. I predict hwe will be awesome as a Monk of the Open hand pounding his way to glory. lol
I hope you have fun with it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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