You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
Try using patient defense instead of flurry and stuns.
Still feeling squishy?
Roll a Hill Dwarf with the Dwarven fortitude feat. Every time you take the dodge action with your patient defense, you can restore a hit die+CON.
STILL feeling squishy? Role a way of mercy that gives a healing slap to the face.
Or just learn to play monk instead of thinking the class is the problem.
Using Patient Defense or playing a dwarf... doesn't do anything to make Stunning Strike less of a problematic class feature or fix the overaching issue of resource management or do anything to improve weak subclasses.
Astonishingly useless advice.
More hit points is bad for someone who feels squishy? Lol.
Stunning strike is a problem now, because? White roomers like treantmonk who view it as a crutch instead of a feature then get mad that they blew 5 ki on a single turn and failed and have nothing left to use it on other class features?
The only astonishing thing here is your inability to understand the class.
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
What the hell? Lol. So because Druids have two even more limited class pools to power subclass features they aren’t burning class resources like a monk? I mean I guess. If one of those abilities is summoning a fire elemental pet or something that’s quite a bit stronger than stunning blow saves. But the trade off, is you can do it more often than twice a day.
Paladin gets spells, channel divinity, and lay on hands. For a half caster that’s quite a hefty investment for a long rest to spend all those resources on. Because once they’re out, they’re out until they sleep for 8 hours.
Clerics get a very limited channel divinity 2 times per rest at level 6. Or Three aaaaalllll the way down at like level seventeen or something obnoxious like that on a short rest.
Sorc Spell Points are 1:1 with Ki. What’s wrong with that?
The only objection you seem to have is you, like most Monk observers are terrible at when and how to use class features and get envious when they aren’t as good as the extremely limited use abilities of other classes.
Monk is limited in two, maybe three ways. It’s MAD. I would say more so than Rangers, and Paladins are barely MAD at all.
It’s damage needs to be brought more in line by shifting the martial arts damage die up one every three levels or so capping out at d12.
Third is I would say that it needs more armor, or at least an ability that gives it a chance to dodge an attack based on a percentage like the mirror image spell on top of its armor class. So give it a free disengage like the rogue, and have the monk require a ki point to improve its defense as more than granting advantage(Which statistically is a randomized +1 to +4 bonus) to drive home the dodging ability. At the very least add your proficiency bonus when taking patient defense.
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
So they are pools.
Except you Can't use CD for many things. This is a smoke screen.
Any Cleric has a maximum of 2 abilities that Channel Divinity can do pre-Tasha's. it has one that is default that is affecting undead. It has one alteration to the ability that adds a second effect based purely upon the Subclass you have taken. That is all. And Both of those Channel Divinity Abilities are Situational use and how useful that situational use ability depends on which one it is and what is going on your campaign so it may range from very useful for the limited times you can use it to not useful at all.
So no. It doesn't in any way match my description of what a Pool is. your blowing smoke and conflating things that are not the same.
Even with Tasha's involved it's still not a Pool. it's another Situational ability that is arguably more useful in a general fashion than most actual Channel Divinity uses, Including the Default use against Undead. That's it. it never had a bunch of uses. It still doesn't.
Try using patient defense instead of flurry and stuns.
Still feeling squishy?
Roll a Hill Dwarf with the Dwarven fortitude feat. Every time you take the dodge action with your patient defense, you can restore a hit die+CON.
STILL feeling squishy? Role a way of mercy that gives a healing slap to the face.
Or just learn to play monk instead of thinking the class is the problem.
Using Patient Defense or playing a dwarf... doesn't do anything to make Stunning Strike less of a problematic class feature or fix the overaching issue of resource management or do anything to improve weak subclasses.
Astonishingly useless advice.
More hit points is bad for someone who feels squishy? Lol.
Stunning strike is a problem now, because? White roomers like treantmonk who view it as a crutch instead of a feature then get mad that they blew 5 ki on a single turn and failed and have nothing left to use it on other class features?
The only astonishing thing here is your inability to understand the class.
White roomers like Treatmonk are even worse than that. They make their monk Builds to actually specifically weaken uses of STunning Strike and Augment other parts of the monk that they then neglect for their Ki usage. THEN after all of that they complain that they spend 4 to 5 ki on a single turn on Stunning Strike and have nothing left to do anything else (half the time by not only weakening stunning strike but then using it against things that are particularly resistant to stunning strike as well).
The General White Room of one of the more complicated classes that people like Treatmonk are supposed to know intimately (and often don't) that other people then spread around is often self sabotaging. it's like Building A Fighter or a Ranger entirely for ranged combat and then complaining that they are weak at two weapon fighting without any fighting styles or feats that support it. Or building a Strength Rogue while neglecting Dex and then complaining that the Rogue can't shoot a bow well and their dex saves are only ok.
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
So they are pools.
Except you Can't use CD for many things. This is a smoke screen.
Any Cleric has a maximum of 2 abilities that Channel Divinity can do pre-Tasha's. it has one that is default that is affecting undead. It has one alteration to the ability that adds a second effect based purely upon the Subclass you have taken. That is all. And Both of those Channel Divinity Abilities are Situational use and how useful that situational use ability depends on which one it is and what is going on your campaign so it may range from very useful for the limited times you can use it to not useful at all.
So no. It doesn't in any way match my description of what a Pool is. your blowing smoke and conflating things that are not the same.
Even with Tasha's involved it's still not a Pool. it's another Situational ability that is arguably more useful in a general fashion than most actual Channel Divinity uses, Including the Default use against Undead. That's it. it never had a bunch of uses. It still doesn't.
4 things for most:
Turn Undead, two different Channel Divinity options, and now regaining spell slots
Then they also have WIS mod based abilities too like War Cleric (War Priest) and Light Cleric (Warding Flare).
So overall Cleric gets several different things that do not require a spell slots or overlap with each other.
Channel Divinity/Wild Shape come back on a short rest....
And now paladin/cleric can use it to regain spell slots.
So it's not very limited.
A single Spell Slot Per Use. Not even comparing to other casters that have similar mechanical abilities. It's VERY LIMITING.
Wizards and Land Druids for example get far more back per short rest. Even the Warlock. One of the Most limited Spell Casters in most people's minds get back more than the Cleric Does through Channel Divinity. All without affecting usage of any other ability.
You are falsely stating these abilities. That's all there is to it.
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
So they are pools.
Except you Can't use CD for many things. This is a smoke screen.
Any Cleric has a maximum of 2 abilities that Channel Divinity can do pre-Tasha's. it has one that is default that is affecting undead. It has one alteration to the ability that adds a second effect based purely upon the Subclass you have taken. That is all. And Both of those Channel Divinity Abilities are Situational use and how useful that situational use ability depends on which one it is and what is going on your campaign so it may range from very useful for the limited times you can use it to not useful at all.
So no. It doesn't in any way match my description of what a Pool is. your blowing smoke and conflating things that are not the same.
Even with Tasha's involved it's still not a Pool. it's another Situational ability that is arguably more useful in a general fashion than most actual Channel Divinity uses, Including the Default use against Undead. That's it. it never had a bunch of uses. It still doesn't.
4 things for most:
Turn Undead, two different Channel Divinity options, and now regaining spell slots
Then they also have WIS mod based abilities too like War Cleric (War Priest) and Light Cleric (Warding Flare).
So overall Cleric gets several different things that do not require a spell slots or overlap with each other.
Nope. Go look them up. Turn undead is the default and each subclass only gives 1 channel divinity option
There is Exactly Three Exceptions to this
Knowledge which has Knowledge of Ages and Read Thoughts Trickery Domain. Which has both Invoke Duplicity, and Cloak of Shadows War Domain which has both Guides Strike, and War Gods Blessing
And for One of those It is the Same Channel Divinity power (War Domain). It's just That you can now use it on Others. And for all of them the Second Ability is gained at 6th level. And for another (knowledge domain) one of their Channel Divinity abilities is a glorified ribbon ability considering it's just short term proficiency. Though Some could argue the same about Cloak of Shadows if they really wanted to as well.
Also Wis Mod Based Abilities are not a pool. They are a single Ability with Limited Uses and only one thing you can do with them. They are not a multi-purpose resource so they are Not a Pool.
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
So they are pools.
Except you Can't use CD for many things. This is a smoke screen.
Any Cleric has a maximum of 2 abilities that Channel Divinity can do pre-Tasha's. it has one that is default that is affecting undead. It has one alteration to the ability that adds a second effect based purely upon the Subclass you have taken. That is all. And Both of those Channel Divinity Abilities are Situational use and how useful that situational use ability depends on which one it is and what is going on your campaign so it may range from very useful for the limited times you can use it to not useful at all.
So no. It doesn't in any way match my description of what a Pool is. your blowing smoke and conflating things that are not the same.
Even with Tasha's involved it's still not a Pool. it's another Situational ability that is arguably more useful in a general fashion than most actual Channel Divinity uses, Including the Default use against Undead. That's it. it never had a bunch of uses. It still doesn't.
4 things for most:
Turn Undead, two different Channel Divinity options, and now regaining spell slots
Then they also have WIS mod based abilities too like War Cleric (War Priest) and Light Cleric (Warding Flare).
So overall Cleric gets several different things that do not require a spell slots or overlap with each other.
Nope. Go look them up. Turn undead is the default and each subclass only gives 1 channel divinity option
There is Exactly Three Exceptions to this
Knowledge which has Knowledge of Ages and Read Thoughts Trickery Domain. Which has both Invoke Duplicity, and Cloak of Shadows War Domain which has both Guides Strike, and War Gods Blessing
And for One of those It is the Same Channel Divinity power (War Domain). It's just That you can now use it on Others. And for all of them the Second Ability is gained at 6th level. And for another (knowledge domain) one of their Channel Divinity abilities is a glorified ribbon ability considering it's just short term proficiency. Though Some could argue the same about Cloak of Shadows if they really wanted to as well.
Also Wis Mod Based Abilities are not a pool. They are a single Ability with Limited Uses and only one thing you can do with them. They are not a multi-purpose resource so they are Not a Pool.
Still an ability that does not require your core class slots.
And you have several examples there of at least 4 options for CD so it's for sure versatile.
Nope. Go look them up. Turn undead is the default and each subclass only gives 1 channel divinity option
There is Exactly Three Exceptions to this
Knowledge which has Knowledge of Ages and Read Thoughts Trickery Domain. Which has both Invoke Duplicity, and Cloak of Shadows War Domain which has both Guides Strike, and War Gods Blessing
And for One of those It is the Same Channel Divinity power (War Domain). It's just That you can now use it on Others. And for all of them the Second Ability is gained at 6th level. And for another (knowledge domain) one of their Channel Divinity abilities is a glorified ribbon ability considering it's just short term proficiency. Though Some could argue the same about Cloak of Shadows if they really wanted to as well.
Also Wis Mod Based Abilities are not a pool. They are a single Ability with Limited Uses and only one thing you can do with them. They are not a multi-purpose resource so they are Not a Pool.
Still an ability that does not require your core class slots.
And you have several examples there of at least 4 options for CD so it's for sure versatile.
So overall it's exactly what I am saying.
This is a false Equivalency argument. It's not several. It's exactly 3.
It's nothing like your saying. I've just proved it's nothing like your saying. Even your argument that it's not using your core class slots is a False Equivalency argument. The Monk has a number of abilities either as a core ability or as a part of their Subclass that does not use Ki.
Just as a short list you have the Bonus Action Attack from Martial Arts. Which is basically infinite usage but does require action economy, you have Deflect Arrows which is again infinite usage and only limited by action economy. Slow Fall is Situational but takes no Resource cost. Ki Fueled Strike is an Optional that doesn't cost anything more than Action Economy AND is triggered through usage of Ki on other abilities as part of your action. Evasion, Stillness of Mind, and Pure of Body are All Situational Infinite Usage Abilities. Tongue of Sun and Moon is an always on Ribbon Ability, Diamond Soul is an Always on Situational but highly impactful ability with no costs. And that's just the main list from the Core class.
And This is really the Thing about Monks. For all the things that Cost them Ki. They have a whole lot that cost them little more than action Economy at most, With little to no limits on how often. Unlike all of these abilities your trying to call Secondary Resource Pools for Other Classes. If those are Secondary Resource pools then I've just listed a bunch of abilities with potentially infinite usage.
But None of that matters when you have your heart set on bashing the Monk and how bad it is does it? When your making up these false equivalencies about Resource Pools and the like. Interestingly Enough the Monk has an Advantage there as well. It Gains that Entire Resource Pool your complaining about so much at a rate 3 times Faster than any Actual Resource Pools and it Ends up with a Higher Amount in it Per Rest than just about any of the abilities you've tried to call a secondary resource pool.
At 6th Level. When that Cleric is getting maybe 6 usages of Channel Divinity total and has to make their Spells last that entire period as well. The Monk has Refreshed it's pool 3 times for a Total of 18 usages. That cleric. For All of it's Spell Slots and the 6 usages of Channel Divinity on Top of it. Has enough resources to do 17 things, And several of those things have various restrictions on top of them as well like Requirement of spell slots. Once those are all out and the Cleric is down to swinging a weapon and hoping to do something or relying on cantrips which is the caster equivalent to weapon attacks anyway. The Monk is still slugging away for 3 Attacks a turn for Free, and doesn't have to worry about it's weapon being magical. Hope that cleric remembered to find a +1 mace or something, or they like using that one cantrip over and over.
The Resource Argument is a falsehood. it Always Has been. The Primary Problem has always been in how people spend the Pool and the Misguided direction that has been pushed for how to build monks for Years.
I've said it in thread after thread. People are Told to Build monks in a Way that is not suitable for things like Stunning Strike and then told to rely heavily on Stunning Strike. It's the only class in the game where people Tell People to build for one stat and that another stat is a stat to only pay attention to after they've maxed out that first stat, and then Try to make all the tactics that they tell people to use work around an ability that it's direct viability is hinged on that Second Stat they are told to neglect until half way to level 20 if not Later.
I've said it in thread after thread. People are Told to Build monks in a Way that is not suitable for things like Stunning Strike and then told to rely heavily on Stunning Strike. It's the only class in the game where people Tell People to build for one stat and that another stat is a stat to only pay attention to after they've maxed out that first stat, and then Try to make all the tactics that they tell people to use work around an ability that it's direct viability is hinged on that Second Stat they are told to neglect until half way to level 20 if not Later.
Isn’t that fundamentally part of the biggest problem with Monks?
You have to split your absolutely precious ASIs between being able to hit things reliably and landing your abilities with any sort of consistency? Trying to balance them between level 4 ASI spent on two points DEX, level 8 spent on two points WIS, all the way up to level 20 where you might be able to fit in a feat? Provided you have a +2, +1 WIS race? They are so stat dependent that only one other class suffers from this. Blade Pact Warlocks not of the hexblade variety. And they were fixed with hexblade entirely.
A Paladin with a 14 CHA doesn’t miss out on much. His auras are a bit weaker. And he doesn’t really have offensive spells to cast. So why would he need to max that if he needs more Strength and takes great weapon Master to max out his smites instead?
A Ranger only really suffers from a low WIS by not having the maximum benefit to various subclass features. Gloomstalker initiative, Fey Wanderer Glamour, Beast Master variant companion attack, things like that.
Even an Eldritch Knight Fighter can mitigate some of the problem of low INT by level 10 with Eldritch strike.
And you’re dead on about resource pool management, there is only one sub class absolutely dreadful at it, and that’s four elements. But that’s part of being a blaster caster. It’s almost as strong as Warlocks spell casting just with a severely limited selection in comparison.
Some are better at it but all do use ki for almost every ability that requires a resource.
So monks are the worst martial for resource use and design.
And?
If I’m an astral monk at level 17, I can blow 5 ki to activate my astral self and every round after that attack for 1d10x6 damage a turn for one ki after my initial activation. So in two rounds I will have spent 6 of my 17 Ki available. What could I use those 11 ki for in the next combat or two? More of the same? Ok. Darn. Better walk at a slow pace and rest up once it’s depleted.
if I’m an 11th level Kensei fighting three ninjas with three attacks per turn, I can spend 2 ki making my weapon a +2 magic weapon. Maybe I’ll use that extra ki for patient defense and add +2 agile parry as a bonus action and kick for my 2 attacks instead. I just spent 3 of my eleven ki. What do I do now? Stun when I attack? 4 of my 11 ki. And that’s really trying to burn it all up.
It returns completely on a short rest. Why aren’t you using it? Go ask warlocks how stingy they are with their spell slots.
I've said it in thread after thread. People are Told to Build monks in a Way that is not suitable for things like Stunning Strike and then told to rely heavily on Stunning Strike. It's the only class in the game where people Tell People to build for one stat and that another stat is a stat to only pay attention to after they've maxed out that first stat, and then Try to make all the tactics that they tell people to use work around an ability that it's direct viability is hinged on that Second Stat they are told to neglect until half way to level 20 if not Later.
Isn’t that fundamentally part of the biggest problem with Monks?
You have to split your absolutely precious ASIs between being able to hit things reliably and landing your abilities with any sort of consistency? Trying to balance them between level 4 ASI spent on two points DEX, level 8 spent on two points WIS, all the way up to level 20 where you might be able to fit in a feat? Provided you have a +2, +1 WIS race? They are so stat dependent that only one other class suffers from this. Blade Pact Warlocks not of the hexblade variety. And they were fixed with hexblade entirely.
A Paladin with a 14 CHA doesn’t miss out on much. His auras are a bit weaker. And he doesn’t really have offensive spells to cast. So why would he need to max that if he needs more Strength and takes great weapon Master to max out his smites instead?
A Ranger only really suffers from a low WIS by not having the maximum benefit to various subclass features. Gloomstalker initiative, Fey Wanderer Glamour, Beast Master variant companion attack, things like that.
Even an Eldritch Knight Fighter can mitigate some of the problem of low INT by level 10 with Eldritch strike.
And you’re dead on about resource pool management, there is only one sub class absolutely dreadful at it, and that’s four elements. But that’s part of being a blaster caster. It’s almost as strong as Warlocks spell casting just with a severely limited selection in comparison.
They are Stat Dependant because they have almost No Gear Dependancy. Gear is a secondary or even tertiary thought for monks and mostly only about incidental things like rings of Protection and the like. This is part of why they are so stat dependant. They don't do a whole lot of chasing equipment through the levels. if they didn't have something like ASI's and smaller MA die to slow them down. There would be little reason to be anything else. At least for the first tier or so of levels. it's only at level's 17-20 where they don't quite keep up in one way or another almost entirely off of just Stats which then make their abilities stronger.
Also the Power Curve is much lower than most people state it as. The Monk does not suffer heavily from going With a Wis just after a Dex increase. Or even taking Wis First. Certain subclasses that are very Wis heavy can actually get away with making both of their First two ASI's in Wisdom to potentially get it up to 20. Either Strategy actually makes things like Stunning Strike a lot more useful. Monks do not usually significantly drop in their Ability to hit like other classes through Feats and such. Also, Maxing out both stat's is a bit of a red Herring in most game play. It only matters if you know that your going to make it to max Level and that still doesn't change the actual balance of lower level play. And that's only because the Top Tier of Play is completely unbalanced. your Ability to hit is also much easier to increase than your Ability Scores and things like Save DC for your abilities are just in general. More Efficient Stunning Strikes not only helps you hit more over all if you can more reliably land it when you do hit before it's applied. But also potentially saves you Ki not only in stunning strike attempts but situationally by avoiding some situations where you might have needed to do Patient Defense or Step of the wind for their defensive capabilities. Which can make the Monks biggest annoyance much of the time not the AC's of opponents but the Opponents that have immunity to the stunned condition or rediculously high con saves instead. You need to match your Monk and it's ASI's, specially it's first 2 to 3 ASI's to what your wanting to do and what your subclass takes advantage of to really get the most out of playing them. Most Dex Based monks get more out of lots of Flurry of Blows and other abilities like that than they do Stunning Strike, particularly if their subclass gives some other use for Ki instead that helps in some way with more reliability.
People Bring up magical items a lot when Criticising the monk and how you can't pick your magical items that you get. But if you have a DM that's not just following a generic list and is taking classes into account when handing out such loot. The Monk is actually more likely to get vital magic items that help their builds than other classes because of the Rarity of monk focused items. But they can still optionally pick up certain ones that other classes might want as well. But if those aren't coming up. The monk has a much easier time getting to explore the world of Magical Accessories than most other characters. There are a lot of interesting ones that do interesting things. Or ones that you pick up at low level that when you get to higher level and they aren't needed. You might be able to trade away for something that is useful. Either to a party member or some NPC or something. And DM's are going to have to find something for your Monk to spend all of their cash on if they ever want money to mean anything in their game after about midway through tier 2. (Bored Monks with lots of cash can do a lot to drive a DM insane with random things they can bring to battlefield that are mundane so easy to get or just plain having so much money they decide to crash an economy.)
I mention Magic Items as a criticism because it leads into my next little Point. All of the Classes you Named (except Hexblade) are Highly Gear Dependent in return for not being as MAD (though there is an argument to be made that the Paladin is both MAD and Highly Gear Dependent). Particularly once certain Feats like GWM and Sharp Shooter get involved because they take a big attack deficit. Many of them also need to not only upgrade magical armors but even upgrade mundane armors. And focus heavily on the Weapons that they use and hope that onces that are actually useful to them are available in the various loot collected. But with a much wider variety of usable loot that can be extremely difficult with several kinds of builds unless the DM really focuses on supplying items not only for their class but their specific build as well. I'm aware that good DM's often do this. But that is not necessarily a general expectation. But Ultimately what your looking at is a trade off. Something that they can do without for something that they vitally need. For One it's Stat's. For the other it's Gear so the Stats aren't As important, but still somewhat important. Many Casters are Gear dependent Either With Buying Spells, or Buying Armor, or Refilling their various, sometimes very expensive, rare components that foci and spell pouches just don't cover. I've seen more than one cleric that by the time they reach level 15 or 20 is sitting on a few thousand worth of Diamonds or the like for important emergency spells as their version of gear dependency for example. And they've probably used almost as much on potions for the party or in ingredients already used to do things like bring an unfortunate party member back from the dead.
Hexblades are a Bit unique however. While They aren't as Gear Dependent. And they are Definitely Dual Attribute Dependent at most. They are heavily dependent on their Class Features and things like Feats to get their full potential going. They just don't really come online until various different level milestones are Reached. They start out as Squishy as a Monk But their only way to enhance it is to wait until they get to the right level. Or rest a lot and use just the right spells. Their Damage is only really good with a build in mind and matching Feats and Invocations to fully take advantage of it. But they don't see the full might of that until level 12. With Half of it not really coming online until level 6. Level 5 if you don't want to have invocations and other things to really do anything else. A magic weapon can help. But it can also hinder them. And it just locks them into certain requirements even more. Though when your going melee with them they can at least Fake range for quite a while with things like Eldritch Blast to be able to use though they don't really want to invest in it heavily usually. I can understand why they tend to be treated as a Dip or a midlevel multiclass after they've got something else going. Most people are trying to circumvent the issues of level dependency to get things really going.
I offer that because Monks are so stat dependent and ASI starved, they are absolutely more gear dependent. I would also say that I could make a Barbarian as a better monk than the monk class stands now because of their built in dependency on stats and not enough stat increases.
A monk who is behind on Dexterity in a bounded accuracy game, means he’s not going to land his strikes to land stunning blow/touch of death/quivering palm/Deft Blade Strike/Hand of Harm/empowered arms as often as they would need to. They would become absolutely reliant on magic simple weapons to cover for their deficiencies. And that wouldn’t even help the astral self and mercy bonus damage which requires unarmed strikes, or astral arms.
Same thing goes for AC, all your DCs, when you start compromising yourself by not maxing these things on level ups you put yourself considerably behind, having to split them means you never catch up until end game.
I offer that because Monks are so stat dependent and ASI starved, they are absolutely more gear dependent. I would also say that I could make a Barbarian as a better monk than the monk class stands now because of their built in dependency on stats and not enough stat increases.
A monk who is behind on Dexterity in a bounded accuracy game, means he’s not going to land his strikes to land stunning blow/touch of death/quivering palm/Deft Blade Strike/Hand of Harm/empowered arms as often as they would need to. They would become absolutely reliant on magic simple weapons to cover for their deficiencies. And that wouldn’t even help the astral self and mercy bonus damage which requires unarmed strikes, or astral arms.
Same thing goes for AC, all your DCs, when you start compromising yourself by not maxing these things on level ups you put yourself considerably behind, having to split them means you never catch up until end game.
Agreed... Monks need both WIS and DEX to stay relevant.
To me that's one of their major issues is MADness.
The fact you don't get any more resources with a high wisdom is bad design IMO
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Nope .. They all give a secondary resource for you to burn...
Paladin gets spells, healing and CD as three separate pools.
So you don't have to share across the three.
Same for druid: spells and wildshape are 2 different pools.
Same for Cleric: spells, CD, and even subclass specific pools (War, Light, etc...)
Sorcerer even gets SP
Some of those Aren't REsource Pools. Some of those things are also main class features thta your forced to use on your Subclasses. All of them tend to have some kind of restriction on them or are only situationally usable at best.
They aren't Actually seperate pools. Your just classifying them as seperate pools to make them sound better. Most of what the Paladin does is Powered by his Spell Slots. If he wants to cast even a single spell that's one less smite that he can do. lay on Hands is basically no better than a few dedicated first level heal spells. You could give it a certain number of spells that it can only heal or remove conditions with and you'd get the same exact effect. Assuming that you even use it at all because it's still touch range.
Wildshape is not a Pool. It's a Lie to call it a pool. All it actually is, is a limited use ability. Trying to call it a pool just because it has a number of uses and certain subclasses alter it's one fundamental use a bit is a stretch.
same with Channeling and Subclass features for Cleric. They aren't pools. The Subclass Features are all limited use abilities that can do one thing and one thing only. Occasionally modified by a different ability to do a second thing. Same with Channeling. It's just a limited use ability that does one thing that are also Highly Situational and then the Sub Classes Alter them to do a second static effect a certain number of times instead to make them Still Situational but more useful. That's it.
A Pool is something that has a variety of uses by default. Whether it's Spells, Ki, or Sorcery Points. And By Sheer Technicality, though offered in it's purest actual form as an alternate rule rather than default. Sorcerer's technically work entirely on Sorcery Points. We're just given a mechanical user interface to make it easier on new players and GM's in general that makes it look like it's not by splitting that One Pool into Two Restricted Effects and then telling you that Your Going to Lose Resources from your Pool to be able to Move that Pool between those two restricted effects choices.
More hit points is bad for someone who feels squishy? Lol.
Stunning strike is a problem now, because? White roomers like treantmonk who view it as a crutch instead of a feature then get mad that they blew 5 ki on a single turn and failed and have nothing left to use it on other class features?
The only astonishing thing here is your inability to understand the class.
By your own definition they are pools then....
You can use CD for many things and even more now with Tashas... You can even use it to regain spell slots.
Same thing with wild shape... You can use it to wild shape or one of the many new abilities subclasses get (look at star druid).
So they are pools.
What the hell? Lol. So because Druids have two even more limited class pools to power subclass features they aren’t burning class resources like a monk? I mean I guess. If one of those abilities is summoning a fire elemental pet or something that’s quite a bit stronger than stunning blow saves. But the trade off, is you can do it more often than twice a day.
Paladin gets spells, channel divinity, and lay on hands. For a half caster that’s quite a hefty investment for a long rest to spend all those resources on. Because once they’re out, they’re out until they sleep for 8 hours.
Clerics get a very limited channel divinity 2 times per rest at level 6. Or Three aaaaalllll the way down at like level seventeen or something obnoxious like that on a short rest.
Sorc Spell Points are 1:1 with Ki. What’s wrong with that?
The only objection you seem to have is you, like most Monk observers are terrible at when and how to use class features and get envious when they aren’t as good as the extremely limited use abilities of other classes.
Monk is limited in two, maybe three ways.
It’s MAD. I would say more so than Rangers, and Paladins are barely MAD at all.
It’s damage needs to be brought more in line by shifting the martial arts damage die up one every three levels or so capping out at d12.
Third is I would say that it needs more armor, or at least an ability that gives it a chance to dodge an attack based on a percentage like the mirror image spell on top of its armor class. So give it a free disengage like the rogue, and have the monk require a ki point to improve its defense as more than granting advantage(Which statistically is a randomized +1 to +4 bonus) to drive home the dodging ability. At the very least add your proficiency bonus when taking patient defense.
Channel Divinity/Wild Shape come back on a short rest....
And now paladin/cleric can use it to regain spell slots.
So it's not very limited.
Except you Can't use CD for many things. This is a smoke screen.
Any Cleric has a maximum of 2 abilities that Channel Divinity can do pre-Tasha's. it has one that is default that is affecting undead. It has one alteration to the ability that adds a second effect based purely upon the Subclass you have taken. That is all. And Both of those Channel Divinity Abilities are Situational use and how useful that situational use ability depends on which one it is and what is going on your campaign so it may range from very useful for the limited times you can use it to not useful at all.
So no. It doesn't in any way match my description of what a Pool is. your blowing smoke and conflating things that are not the same.
Even with Tasha's involved it's still not a Pool. it's another Situational ability that is arguably more useful in a general fashion than most actual Channel Divinity uses, Including the Default use against Undead. That's it. it never had a bunch of uses. It still doesn't.
White roomers like Treatmonk are even worse than that. They make their monk Builds to actually specifically weaken uses of STunning Strike and Augment other parts of the monk that they then neglect for their Ki usage. THEN after all of that they complain that they spend 4 to 5 ki on a single turn on Stunning Strike and have nothing left to do anything else (half the time by not only weakening stunning strike but then using it against things that are particularly resistant to stunning strike as well).
The General White Room of one of the more complicated classes that people like Treatmonk are supposed to know intimately (and often don't) that other people then spread around is often self sabotaging. it's like Building A Fighter or a Ranger entirely for ranged combat and then complaining that they are weak at two weapon fighting without any fighting styles or feats that support it. Or building a Strength Rogue while neglecting Dex and then complaining that the Rogue can't shoot a bow well and their dex saves are only ok.
4 things for most:
Turn Undead, two different Channel Divinity options, and now regaining spell slots
Then they also have WIS mod based abilities too like War Cleric (War Priest) and Light Cleric (Warding Flare).
So overall Cleric gets several different things that do not require a spell slots or overlap with each other.
A single Spell Slot Per Use. Not even comparing to other casters that have similar mechanical abilities. It's VERY LIMITING.
Wizards and Land Druids for example get far more back per short rest. Even the Warlock. One of the Most limited Spell Casters in most people's minds get back more than the Cleric Does through Channel Divinity. All without affecting usage of any other ability.
You are falsely stating these abilities. That's all there is to it.
Nope. Go look them up. Turn undead is the default and each subclass only gives 1 channel divinity option
There is Exactly Three Exceptions to this
Knowledge which has Knowledge of Ages and Read Thoughts
Trickery Domain. Which has both Invoke Duplicity, and Cloak of Shadows
War Domain which has both Guides Strike, and War Gods Blessing
And for One of those It is the Same Channel Divinity power (War Domain). It's just That you can now use it on Others. And for all of them the Second Ability is gained at 6th level. And for another (knowledge domain) one of their Channel Divinity abilities is a glorified ribbon ability considering it's just short term proficiency. Though Some could argue the same about Cloak of Shadows if they really wanted to as well.
Also Wis Mod Based Abilities are not a pool. They are a single Ability with Limited Uses and only one thing you can do with them. They are not a multi-purpose resource so they are Not a Pool.
Still an ability that does not require your core class slots.
And you have several examples there of at least 4 options for CD so it's for sure versatile.
So overall it's exactly what I am saying.
This is a false Equivalency argument. It's not several. It's exactly 3.
It's nothing like your saying. I've just proved it's nothing like your saying. Even your argument that it's not using your core class slots is a False Equivalency argument. The Monk has a number of abilities either as a core ability or as a part of their Subclass that does not use Ki.
Just as a short list you have the Bonus Action Attack from Martial Arts. Which is basically infinite usage but does require action economy, you have Deflect Arrows which is again infinite usage and only limited by action economy. Slow Fall is Situational but takes no Resource cost. Ki Fueled Strike is an Optional that doesn't cost anything more than Action Economy AND is triggered through usage of Ki on other abilities as part of your action. Evasion, Stillness of Mind, and Pure of Body are All Situational Infinite Usage Abilities. Tongue of Sun and Moon is an always on Ribbon Ability, Diamond Soul is an Always on Situational but highly impactful ability with no costs. And that's just the main list from the Core class.
And This is really the Thing about Monks. For all the things that Cost them Ki. They have a whole lot that cost them little more than action Economy at most, With little to no limits on how often. Unlike all of these abilities your trying to call Secondary Resource Pools for Other Classes. If those are Secondary Resource pools then I've just listed a bunch of abilities with potentially infinite usage.
But None of that matters when you have your heart set on bashing the Monk and how bad it is does it? When your making up these false equivalencies about Resource Pools and the like. Interestingly Enough the Monk has an Advantage there as well. It Gains that Entire Resource Pool your complaining about so much at a rate 3 times Faster than any Actual Resource Pools and it Ends up with a Higher Amount in it Per Rest than just about any of the abilities you've tried to call a secondary resource pool.
At 6th Level. When that Cleric is getting maybe 6 usages of Channel Divinity total and has to make their Spells last that entire period as well. The Monk has Refreshed it's pool 3 times for a Total of 18 usages. That cleric. For All of it's Spell Slots and the 6 usages of Channel Divinity on Top of it. Has enough resources to do 17 things, And several of those things have various restrictions on top of them as well like Requirement of spell slots. Once those are all out and the Cleric is down to swinging a weapon and hoping to do something or relying on cantrips which is the caster equivalent to weapon attacks anyway. The Monk is still slugging away for 3 Attacks a turn for Free, and doesn't have to worry about it's weapon being magical. Hope that cleric remembered to find a +1 mace or something, or they like using that one cantrip over and over.
The Resource Argument is a falsehood. it Always Has been. The Primary Problem has always been in how people spend the Pool and the Misguided direction that has been pushed for how to build monks for Years.
I've said it in thread after thread. People are Told to Build monks in a Way that is not suitable for things like Stunning Strike and then told to rely heavily on Stunning Strike. It's the only class in the game where people Tell People to build for one stat and that another stat is a stat to only pay attention to after they've maxed out that first stat, and then Try to make all the tactics that they tell people to use work around an ability that it's direct viability is hinged on that Second Stat they are told to neglect until half way to level 20 if not Later.
They use ki for literally everything.
Some are better at it but all do use ki for almost every ability that requires a resource.
So monks are the worst martial for resource use and design.
Isn’t that fundamentally part of the biggest problem with Monks?
You have to split your absolutely precious ASIs between being able to hit things reliably and landing your abilities with any sort of consistency? Trying to balance them between level 4 ASI spent on two points DEX, level 8 spent on two points WIS, all the way up to level 20 where you might be able to fit in a feat? Provided you have a +2, +1 WIS race? They are so stat dependent that only one other class suffers from this. Blade Pact Warlocks not of the hexblade variety. And they were fixed with hexblade entirely.
A Paladin with a 14 CHA doesn’t miss out on much. His auras are a bit weaker. And he doesn’t really have offensive spells to cast. So why would he need to max that if he needs more Strength and takes great weapon Master to max out his smites instead?
A Ranger only really suffers from a low WIS by not having the maximum benefit to various subclass features. Gloomstalker initiative, Fey Wanderer Glamour, Beast Master variant companion attack, things like that.
Even an Eldritch Knight Fighter can mitigate some of the problem of low INT by level 10 with Eldritch strike.
And you’re dead on about resource pool management, there is only one sub class absolutely dreadful at it, and that’s four elements. But that’s part of being a blaster caster. It’s almost as strong as Warlocks spell casting just with a severely limited selection in comparison.
And?
If I’m an astral monk at level 17, I can blow 5 ki to activate my astral self and every round after that attack for 1d10x6 damage a turn for one ki after my initial activation. So in two rounds I will have spent 6 of my 17 Ki available. What could I use those 11 ki for in the next combat or two? More of the same? Ok. Darn. Better walk at a slow pace and rest up once it’s depleted.
if I’m an 11th level Kensei fighting three ninjas with three attacks per turn, I can spend 2 ki making my weapon a +2 magic weapon. Maybe I’ll use that extra ki for patient defense and add +2 agile parry as a bonus action and kick for my 2 attacks instead. I just spent 3 of my eleven ki. What do I do now? Stun when I attack? 4 of my 11 ki. And that’s really trying to burn it all up.
It returns completely on a short rest. Why aren’t you using it? Go ask warlocks how stingy they are with their spell slots.
They are Stat Dependant because they have almost No Gear Dependancy. Gear is a secondary or even tertiary thought for monks and mostly only about incidental things like rings of Protection and the like. This is part of why they are so stat dependant. They don't do a whole lot of chasing equipment through the levels. if they didn't have something like ASI's and smaller MA die to slow them down. There would be little reason to be anything else. At least for the first tier or so of levels. it's only at level's 17-20 where they don't quite keep up in one way or another almost entirely off of just Stats which then make their abilities stronger.
Also the Power Curve is much lower than most people state it as. The Monk does not suffer heavily from going With a Wis just after a Dex increase. Or even taking Wis First. Certain subclasses that are very Wis heavy can actually get away with making both of their First two ASI's in Wisdom to potentially get it up to 20. Either Strategy actually makes things like Stunning Strike a lot more useful. Monks do not usually significantly drop in their Ability to hit like other classes through Feats and such. Also, Maxing out both stat's is a bit of a red Herring in most game play. It only matters if you know that your going to make it to max Level and that still doesn't change the actual balance of lower level play. And that's only because the Top Tier of Play is completely unbalanced. your Ability to hit is also much easier to increase than your Ability Scores and things like Save DC for your abilities are just in general. More Efficient Stunning Strikes not only helps you hit more over all if you can more reliably land it when you do hit before it's applied. But also potentially saves you Ki not only in stunning strike attempts but situationally by avoiding some situations where you might have needed to do Patient Defense or Step of the wind for their defensive capabilities. Which can make the Monks biggest annoyance much of the time not the AC's of opponents but the Opponents that have immunity to the stunned condition or rediculously high con saves instead. You need to match your Monk and it's ASI's, specially it's first 2 to 3 ASI's to what your wanting to do and what your subclass takes advantage of to really get the most out of playing them. Most Dex Based monks get more out of lots of Flurry of Blows and other abilities like that than they do Stunning Strike, particularly if their subclass gives some other use for Ki instead that helps in some way with more reliability.
People Bring up magical items a lot when Criticising the monk and how you can't pick your magical items that you get. But if you have a DM that's not just following a generic list and is taking classes into account when handing out such loot. The Monk is actually more likely to get vital magic items that help their builds than other classes because of the Rarity of monk focused items. But they can still optionally pick up certain ones that other classes might want as well. But if those aren't coming up. The monk has a much easier time getting to explore the world of Magical Accessories than most other characters. There are a lot of interesting ones that do interesting things. Or ones that you pick up at low level that when you get to higher level and they aren't needed. You might be able to trade away for something that is useful. Either to a party member or some NPC or something. And DM's are going to have to find something for your Monk to spend all of their cash on if they ever want money to mean anything in their game after about midway through tier 2. (Bored Monks with lots of cash can do a lot to drive a DM insane with random things they can bring to battlefield that are mundane so easy to get or just plain having so much money they decide to crash an economy.)
I mention Magic Items as a criticism because it leads into my next little Point. All of the Classes you Named (except Hexblade) are Highly Gear Dependent in return for not being as MAD (though there is an argument to be made that the Paladin is both MAD and Highly Gear Dependent). Particularly once certain Feats like GWM and Sharp Shooter get involved because they take a big attack deficit. Many of them also need to not only upgrade magical armors but even upgrade mundane armors. And focus heavily on the Weapons that they use and hope that onces that are actually useful to them are available in the various loot collected. But with a much wider variety of usable loot that can be extremely difficult with several kinds of builds unless the DM really focuses on supplying items not only for their class but their specific build as well. I'm aware that good DM's often do this. But that is not necessarily a general expectation. But Ultimately what your looking at is a trade off. Something that they can do without for something that they vitally need. For One it's Stat's. For the other it's Gear so the Stats aren't As important, but still somewhat important. Many Casters are Gear dependent Either With Buying Spells, or Buying Armor, or Refilling their various, sometimes very expensive, rare components that foci and spell pouches just don't cover. I've seen more than one cleric that by the time they reach level 15 or 20 is sitting on a few thousand worth of Diamonds or the like for important emergency spells as their version of gear dependency for example. And they've probably used almost as much on potions for the party or in ingredients already used to do things like bring an unfortunate party member back from the dead.
Hexblades are a Bit unique however. While They aren't as Gear Dependent. And they are Definitely Dual Attribute Dependent at most. They are heavily dependent on their Class Features and things like Feats to get their full potential going. They just don't really come online until various different level milestones are Reached. They start out as Squishy as a Monk But their only way to enhance it is to wait until they get to the right level. Or rest a lot and use just the right spells. Their Damage is only really good with a build in mind and matching Feats and Invocations to fully take advantage of it. But they don't see the full might of that until level 12. With Half of it not really coming online until level 6. Level 5 if you don't want to have invocations and other things to really do anything else. A magic weapon can help. But it can also hinder them. And it just locks them into certain requirements even more. Though when your going melee with them they can at least Fake range for quite a while with things like Eldritch Blast to be able to use though they don't really want to invest in it heavily usually. I can understand why they tend to be treated as a Dip or a midlevel multiclass after they've got something else going. Most people are trying to circumvent the issues of level dependency to get things really going.
I offer that because Monks are so stat dependent and ASI starved, they are absolutely more gear dependent. I would also say that I could make a Barbarian as a better monk than the monk class stands now because of their built in dependency on stats and not enough stat increases.
A monk who is behind on Dexterity in a bounded accuracy game, means he’s not going to land his strikes to land stunning blow/touch of death/quivering palm/Deft Blade Strike/Hand of Harm/empowered arms as often as they would need to. They would become absolutely reliant on magic simple weapons to cover for their deficiencies. And that wouldn’t even help the astral self and mercy bonus damage which requires unarmed strikes, or astral arms.
Same thing goes for AC, all your DCs, when you start compromising yourself by not maxing these things on level ups you put yourself considerably behind, having to split them means you never catch up until end game.
Agreed... Monks need both WIS and DEX to stay relevant.
To me that's one of their major issues is MADness.
The fact you don't get any more resources with a high wisdom is bad design IMO
MADness it’s self isn’t bad, necessarily. It’s that their MADness penalizes them the most.