In general, I support the idea that vengeance is usually superior to devotion, more for the oath spells than for the channel divinity.
I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
In general, I support the idea that vengeance is usually superior to devotion, more for the oath spells than for the channel divinity.
I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
Yeah the spells look better in a vacuum I do think overall I would still give vengeance the edge in spells, haste is pretty strong, yeah the paladin might fail concentration but they should have a high con and its a very powerful spell.
I think again it's sorta situational, I think people look at say hunters mark see it that it uses a d6 and say its better than divine favor, which for a lot of situations it probably will be, but slap on polearm master and I'd rather have divine favor so im not wasting my BA moving hunters mark for an average of 1 more damage per hit
Though I have to say I find hunters mark, divine favor and hex to be a bit.. overblown in how actually useful they are as spells. I think hex can be the best simply because it grants the target a negative, I've been using it some in our group as a feytouched sorcerer when our paladin has shield master. Helps get those shoving prones off more
In general, I support the idea that vengeance is usually superior to devotion, more for the oath spells than for the channel divinity.
I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
Devotion's level 7 and 15 abilities are exceptionally good! Not sure most players truly get just how good they are? Hands down, both Devotion abilities at these levels are superior to the Vengeance equivalents.
I like Vengeance's spell list better, with Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, Haste (love me some haste lol) and Prot from Energy can be quite good, situationally. Banishment is a spell I like, just not as much at level 13, compared to when full casters get it. Dimension Door and Hold Monster are both good spells. But for a paladin with very few high level spell slots, a "save or suck" WIS save with Hold Monster might be just wasting your only 5th slot (and do you have the CHA to back up the save DC?). But hey, if it works, it's very powerful! Scrying you only, or rarely use, if you are not adventuring that day imo.
Devotion's spell list isn't quite as good, but few duds also. It mostly has options I would have taken and prepared anyway. Prot from Evil/Good and Lesser Restoration, I would always have prepared (although, once you hit level 15 the Prot from Evil/Good won't be of much use). Beacon of Hope and Dispel Magic are both pretty good, but both are situational and neither is Haste level of good imo. Freedom of Movement can be critical and is a very strong option. Guardian of Faith...good for a cleric, bad for a paladin imo. Neither Vengeance nor Devotion have great 5th level spells, now that I look at it. Flame Strike is kind of a worse Fireball (shorter range, smaller AoE and a 5th level spell slot). I put Commune in the same boat as Scrying. Probably only using it for thematic reasons and on a day off. Tough to spend a 5th level slot on that, when you have so few.
Btw, funny that so much time has been spent on two paladin oaths that are very close in overall power, Vengeance and Devotion. If you like one more than the other, fine. If you think one is marginally better than the other, fine. But let's not act like there is a huge gulf in their relative overall power or game play! They are both really good paladin options!
I don't even think either one is the most powerful paladin subclass, either. I think Conquest likely has that title. Watchers is quite good. People love the Ancients level 7 spell damage resistance aura. There are other good paladin subclasses with none of them being really bad. The base paladin class is strong, so all of them will be pretty strong imo.
I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
Having a cleric in your party isn't unusual. If they're casting bless... you also casting bless might be doing exactly nothing. In this party comp, having someone use bless and the other using bane can be such a monumental swing in relative fortune between your party and the enemy that it alone can turn a hard fight into an easy one. Bless is hands down the better of the two, and should be prioritized for sure. But, you can do either. So if you got a holy combat buddy, you're not redundant.
Hunter's Mark? Super situational at best. We're going to have better things to do with our bonus action and our concentration. But, I guess if a high priority target tries to flee, slam this bad boy on them. I guess also if you plan on several fights in the next hour it could be super slot-efficient dpr boost. If you got one slot left and need to fight through a bunch of battles in quick succession, this spell is is the move. How often that happens is DM/Table dependent though so ymmv.
Sanctuary is fine. It can have clutch save-the-day moments. It can also just burn spell slots for no effect. Absolutely a good option in the spell list no question.
Which is better? Honestly at this point neither of them are really all that noteworthy TBH. They're mediocre, but on-brand for the subclass feel. Both adequate.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
I feel the need to really call your attention to the fact you just compared their spells, default spells, to a feat. Sure, a half feat. All the same, when your argument is "You can get this feature by taking a feat" you are clearly identifying how powerful that feature actually is. Feats are an incredibly powerful and precious resource.
And you're right, it is powerful. Misty step is worth infesting a feat into getting access to it. Vengeance gets it for free.
Your argument boils down to the fact that Vengeance paladins are not +1 feat over other paladins. Yes, a half feat, but all the same. That's a huge win for this spell level comparison.
And, we haven't even talked about the other fantastic option, Hold Person. Yes, this will be campaign dependent. If you're out in the wilderness fighting dinosaurs and dire wolves this spell isn't doing you much good. But when you're fighting cultists, or... well, the lawman... being able to Paralyze them is huge. It is functionally the first real save or die spell. Since all hits on the paralyzed target are crits and the act of hitting them doesn't release them from the spell.
But you know what is even more telling about how clear a blow-out the comparison is at this level? You don't even mention what devotion gets at all! Not a single word defending those spells. Why? Because as a Paladin you already have access to both of them. Devotion gets nothing at this level.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
By this point, 9th level, you're unlikely to lose concentration unless something is absolutely rocking your world. But you'd probably have some idea that was going to be the case before casting Haste. While active it isn't just an offense boost, but also a defensive boost and a mobility boost. That's a three-for. Spirit Shroud is nice, absolutely, it offers an offensive boost and a minor control function. Which is better is going to depend on the battle. Vengeance gets to pick. Devotion doesn't.
And Beacon of Hope is great, for sure. I'm not going to argue it isn't a great resource saving spell in some situations. it absolutely can be. I just don't like it for paladins, prefer it on clerics. That's just a personal taste thing though. I wouldn't roll a paladin if I was trying to be party healer.
Ultimately that really is what it comes down to. What role are you trying to fill? I like paladins for the badass who kicks in the door and smites evil. The defenses and utility and heals just help me do that. But, if the heals and utility are your goal, and you see your paladin as a protector of the group? You make paladins to fill a different role, one I'd probably have made a cleric to fulfill, personally. Neither is wrong though, and, quite the contrary both have tools to get those respective jobs done fairly well.
I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
Having a cleric in your party isn't unusual. If they're casting bless... you also casting bless might be doing exactly nothing. In this party comp, having someone use bless and the other using bane can be such a monumental swing in relative fortune between your party and the enemy that it alone can turn a hard fight into an easy one. Bless is hands down the better of the two, and should be prioritized for sure. But, you can do either. So if you got a holy combat buddy, you're not redundant.
Hunter's Mark? Super situational at best. We're going to have better things to do with our bonus action and our concentration. But, I guess if a high priority target tries to flee, slam this bad boy on them. I guess also if you plan on several fights in the next hour it could be super slot-efficient dpr boost. If you got one slot left and need to fight through a bunch of battles in quick succession, this spell is is the move. How often that happens is DM/Table dependent though so ymmv.
Sanctuary is fine. It can have clutch save-the-day moments. It can also just burn spell slots for no effect. Absolutely a good option in the spell list no question.
Which is better? Honestly at this point neither of them are really all that noteworthy TBH. They're mediocre, but on-brand for the subclass feel. Both adequate.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
I feel the need to really call your attention to the fact you just compared their spells, default spells, to a feat. Sure, a half feat. All the same, when your argument is "You can get this feature by taking a feat" you are clearly identifying how powerful that feature actually is. Feats are an incredibly powerful and precious resource.
And you're right, it is powerful. Misty step is worth infesting a feat into getting access to it. Vengeance gets it for free.
Your argument boils down to the fact that Vengeance paladins are not +1 feat over other paladins. Yes, a half feat, but all the same. That's a huge win for this spell level comparison.
And, we haven't even talked about the other fantastic option, Hold Person. Yes, this will be campaign dependent. If you're out in the wilderness fighting dinosaurs and dire wolves this spell isn't doing you much good. But when you're fighting cultists, or... well, the lawman... being able to Paralyze them is huge. It is functionally the first real save or die spell. Since all hits on the paralyzed target are crits and the act of hitting them doesn't release them from the spell.
But you know what is even more telling about how clear a blow-out the comparison is at this level? You don't even mention what devotion gets at all! Not a single word defending those spells. Why? Because as a Paladin you already have access to both of them. Devotion gets nothing at this level.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
By this point, 9th level, you're unlikely to lose concentration unless something is absolutely rocking your world. But you'd probably have some idea that was going to be the case before casting Haste. While active it isn't just an offense boost, but also a defensive boost and a mobility boost. That's a three-for. Spirit Shroud is nice, absolutely, it offers an offensive boost and a minor control function. Which is better is going to depend on the battle. Vengeance gets to pick. Devotion doesn't.
And Beacon of Hope is great, for sure. I'm not going to argue it isn't a great resource saving spell in some situations. it absolutely can be. I just don't like it for paladins, prefer it on clerics. That's just a personal taste thing though. I wouldn't roll a paladin if I was trying to be party healer.
You cannot guarantee a party composition. You cannot guarantee there'll be another cleric in the party. I play in parties without clerics more often than not. Bad luck? Maybe. But it's telling me enough that the question remains, the option to cast bless or bane favors bless. Sanctuary is flat out fantastic, especially on a steed that'll never attack in combat. Suppose there is a cleric that does cast bless on several martials with GWM+PAM, or CBE+SS-- if they just dodge every turn, their contributed DPR is higher than a warlock's with hex+EB. Casting sanctuary on such a cleric would absolutely help a ton to that cause!
Now, a paladin is going to want to increase their CHA regardless of their oath, because CHA ties in to so many things. Their aura, their skills, their spells, their channel divinities. So, if they're going to increase their CHA anyways, they might as well take fey touched. Increase main stat AND access a power mobility spell? It's too good to pass up, especially on a class that's traditionally lacking in ranged options. You could start with it, or you could take it at 4th level. Either way, you can have it soon.
I did mention a devotion's spell list-- as being part of the chassis. There's no need to go further than that, but if you'd like more out of that, then consider that they're spells a paladin will want to take anyways. Sure, any paladin can have them, but we don't have to worry about preparing them. Now we can extend our choices to be more eclectic. An OoV paladin might find themselves wanting to pick them up, and having to weigh the opportunity cost of doing so versus other choices. Devotion gets that choice freed up, while picking up an optimal feat choice for their progression that lands them the spell and another choice ontop of it. If vengeance takes misty step, they'd get less benefit out of it because they already know the spell. The fact that devotion don't know it, you can argue is something in their favor with how potent an option fey touched is.
Concentration can still be an issue for vengeance paladins. At lvl 9, you might have a +8 to your CON saves if we factor in your aura, but that's assuming you spent all your ASIs into pumping CHA. But vengeance paladins often want for more, they want PAM, they want STR, and they want GWM. At least if devotion pumps CHA all the way, their sacred weapon compensates by adding to their to-hit. That's to say, I wouldn't count on a vengeance paladin to have that great of a concentration saving throw, all things considered. You could, but I really wouldn't bet on it. Spirit shroud, for all intents and purposes, fulfills the offensive purpose that haste supposedly offers
Fey touched can be a good choice, but it may also depend where their stats lie. If they end up with an odd cha score, then sure. But considering they'll want high strength and high cha, you may not want to give up half of your ASI increases depending on where your stats fall and how high of a level you expect the campaign to go.
Feats aren't free, especially for a class like paladin with heavy demand on multiple stats and significant pressure on feats they already want to take. Starting with a 17 charisma is certainly possible, but in a point buy system it's going to cost you elsewhere - generally either a lower constitution, wisdom, or dexterity mod. More significantly, taking Fey Touched at level four means you aren't taking Sentinel or Polarm Master or Great Weapon Master at that level. This is especially significant for Vengeance and Devotion paladins, both of which have build-defining CDs that really want you to take weapon feats (mostly great weapon master, but polearm master is a competitive alternative, especially for vengeance) to make the most of them. If in the comparison we say Devotion has to take fey touched at level four where vengeance can take great weapon master or polearm master at that level, then the vengeance paladin in that comparison loses their advantage in mobility from access to misty step, but instead gains an arguably even more significant advantage in damage output for at least 4 levels.
And if you're not aiming to focus on damage output, then it's still the difference between having & not having Sentinel, or Inspiring Leader, or Lucky, or Resilient Con, or War Caster. Yes, Fey Touched is a fantastic feat, but there are lots of fantastic feats for paladins, so reducing the Vengeance Paladin's superior oath spell list to "it just saves you a feat" isn't really a reduction at all.
As for Hunter's Mark, it's not amazing, no, but in dungeon delving environments you'll often be able to get more than one encounter's use out of its hour long duration, at which point it's much more likely to outstrip a level 1 smite's damage even before level 5. Admittedly, though, the advantage in the Vengeance Paladin's spell list is really more about Misty Step, Haste, and Dimension Door.
I do think Vengeance and Devotion are very comparable, especially once Devotion's level 7 feature comes online. I give an edge to vengeance for the spells, but only just. I'dstill put both of them below watchers, and about on par with conquest, though that's a tough comparison. Conquests features overall are more significant and more consistently good for what conquest is trying to do, but what conquest is trying to do doesn't stack as naturally with the paladin base class is doing by default. I'd put both vengeance and devotion above ancients, glory, crown, and redemption. All of those are good, again there are no bad paladin subclasses since paladin itself is good on its own before you even look at oath features, but I don't think those others do as much or as well.
Vengeance is also a more prone to multiclassing, since its level 7 feature is lacking. I'd count that as more of a negative, except there are multiple classes that paladin multiclasses into extremely well. In a game without multiclassing I'd probably give the edge to devotion over vengeance in my own rankings, but again only just barely.
I did mention a devotion's spell list-- as being part of the chassis. There's no need to go further than that, but if you'd like more out of that, then consider that they're spells a paladin will want to take anyways. Sure, any paladin can have them, but we don't have to worry about preparing them. Now we can extend our choices to be more eclectic. An OoV paladin might find themselves wanting to pick them up, and having to weigh the opportunity cost of doing so versus other choices. Devotion gets that choice freed up, while picking up an optimal feat choice for their progression that lands them the spell and another choice ontop of it. If vengeance takes misty step, they'd get less benefit out of it because they already know the spell. The fact that devotion don't know it, you can argue is something in their favor with how potent an option fey touched is.
Your argument is the fact that vengeance paladin has a spell that devotion paladin must take a feat to get access to... means devotion is better.
I don't mean to be rude, but that doesn't make any sense.
Rounding out an odd stat isn't limited to just Cha, Strength especially, but even Con are contenders as well. So, instead of Fey Touched they could take-
Strength:
Crusher
Dragon Fear
Heavy Armor Master
Orcish Fury
Constitution:
Aberrant Dragonmark
Crusher
Dragon Fear
Resilient
Charisma:
Dragon Fear
Elven Accuracy
Shadow Touched
Telekinetic
This is not exhaustive lists of options obviously, just semi decent choices available to you. There are more if you're doing interesting builds of course. So the Vengeance Paladin would have the benefit of their pick of one of these while the devotion paladin would gain access to... what the vengeance paladin already has.
Concentration can still be an issue for vengeance paladins. At lvl 9, you might have a +8 to your CON saves if we factor in your aura, but that's assuming you spent all your ASIs into pumping CHA. But vengeance paladins often want for more, they want PAM, they want STR, and they want GWM. At least if devotion pumps CHA all the way, their sacred weapon compensates by adding to their to-hit. That's to say, I wouldn't count on a vengeance paladin to have that great of a concentration saving throw, all things considered. You could, but I really wouldn't bet on it. Spirit shroud, for all intents and purposes, fulfills the offensive purpose that haste supposedly offers
So while you took Fey Touched our Vengeance Paladin took say resilient: Con, and rounded up his con to 16 easy. The +3 from that, plus his +3 from Cha, plus his +4 proficiency places him at making concentration checks at a +10. If they took war caster at any point they're making these checks at advantage. Yeah, you could build him out such that you fastrack to a 20 strength and dump everything into big-weapon-smash feats but you certainly don't need to, and, arguable probably shouldn't. And hey, if you did? you're still rocking a +6 concentration minimum. And guess what, if you went this route... fun fact: Bless probably does more DPR than spirit shroud anyway lol. so you'd only really be concentrating on that unless, like we mentioned, you had a cleric doing it for you.
Bless is increasing your damage alone, at that point, by 2.5 per hit. Spirit shroud would be 4.5. But since bless is, A, targeting 2+ allies also, and B, increasing your rate of hit not damage per hit, it also means you can more consistently smite. So when you're high-fuel-dpr-burning spell slots that 2.5 extra jumps to 4.8 extra damage per swing. And, again, still boosting allies while you're at it.
Haste? How does that stack up? You'd have 3 attacks without it, assuming we went PAM, so shroud would be adding UP TO +3d8 a turn. Maybe an extra d8 on opp attacks. But haste is adding a whole extra attack. So 1d10+15. Since we're taking a whoppin -5 to hit our chance to hit is pretty low. So we're certainly not connecting with all those shroud boosting hits. But even if we did hit all 4d8 from it, shroud is giving us avg 18 extra damage per round, while just getting that extra hit in is instead 20.5 avg. So haste is doing more damage than shroud here too, plus also giving defensive and mobility options.
If you're a devotion-bro is isn't surprising you prefer spirit shroud though, since it is a static+ damage per HIT, and devotion has higher hit rate. For you it feels strong. But on a Veng palli who hits less often but really knocks them out of the park when they do hit, something that just gives them an extra hit wins out.... but something that increases their hit-rate is just as good.
Feats aren't free, especially for a class like paladin with heavy demand on multiple stats and significant pressure on feats they already want to take. Starting with a 17 charisma is certainly possible, but in a point buy system it's going to cost you elsewhere - generally either a lower constitution, wisdom, or dexterity mod. More significantly, taking Fey Touched at level four means you aren't taking Sentinel or Polarm Master or Great Weapon Master at that level. This is especially significant for Vengeance and Devotion paladins, both of which have build-defining CDs that really want you to take weapon feats (mostly great weapon master, but polearm master is a competitive alternative, especially for vengeance) to make the most of them. If in the comparison we say Devotion has to take fey touched at level four where vengeance can take great weapon master or polearm master at that level, then the vengeance paladin in that comparison loses their advantage in mobility from access to misty step, but instead gains an arguably even more significant advantage in damage output for at least 4 levels.
And if you're not aiming to focus on damage output, then it's still the difference between having & not having Sentinel, or Inspiring Leader, or Lucky, or Resilient Con, or War Caster. Yes, Fey Touched is a fantastic feat, but there are lots of fantastic feats for paladins, so reducing the Vengeance Paladin's superior oath spell list to "it just saves you a feat" isn't really a reduction at all.
It isn't so much that "it saves you a feat." Rather, if you're going to increase CHA regardless, you might as well pick up the best way for it. Now, as for not taking GWM at that point, you have to keep in mind, your average DPR plummets hard using GWM, assuming resources are not being used. Say we have two paladins, one takes GWM at 4th level, the other increases CHA via fey touched. If the curve has us landing our hits 60% of the time, being behind puts us at 55%, and GWM furthers that down to 30%. Assuming a greatsword and a 3 STR modifier and GWM, we're at 20 per swing. 20*.3= 6 DPR on average.
the paladin that goes for fey touched is doing just 10 a swing (7+3). Being behind the curve just slightly, 10*.55= 5.5 DPR. It's practically identical. Yes, GWM is still an increase, and yes, this is without resource expenditure. The difference becomes more notable when you toss in things like bless, and vow of enmity, but now the other paladin's got more spells prepared, a better spell DC, better social skills, and later on a better aura for a better saving throw for themselves and everyone else. If damage's a concern, they can at least shore it up with the spell fey touch grants (in this case, a free hunter's mark or hex is better than not having it.)
In the case of devotion, increasing CHA first via fey touched is not a bad idea, because it all goes into improving sacred weapon as well. Later on, we can take GWM at 8th, it's not that big a detriment.
I did mention a devotion's spell list-- as being part of the chassis. There's no need to go further than that, but if you'd like more out of that, then consider that they're spells a paladin will want to take anyways. Sure, any paladin can have them, but we don't have to worry about preparing them. Now we can extend our choices to be more eclectic. An OoV paladin might find themselves wanting to pick them up, and having to weigh the opportunity cost of doing so versus other choices. Devotion gets that choice freed up, while picking up an optimal feat choice for their progression that lands them the spell and another choice ontop of it. If vengeance takes misty step, they'd get less benefit out of it because they already know the spell. The fact that devotion don't know it, you can argue is something in their favor with how potent an option fey touched is.
Your argument is the fact that vengeance paladin has a spell that devotion paladin must take a feat to get access to... means devotion is better.
I don't mean to be rude, but that doesn't make any sense.
Rounding out an odd stat isn't limited to just Cha, Strength especially, but even Con are contenders as well. So, instead of Fey Touched they could take-
Strength:
Crusher
Dragon Fear
Heavy Armor Master
Orcish Fury
Constitution:
Aberrant Dragonmark
Crusher
Dragon Fear
Resilient
Charisma:
Dragon Fear
Elven Accuracy
Shadow Touched
Telekinetic
This is not exhaustive lists of options obviously, just semi decent choices available to you. There are more if you're doing interesting builds of course. So the Vengeance Paladin would have the benefit of their pick of one of these while the devotion paladin would gain access to... what the vengeance paladin already has.
Concentration can still be an issue for vengeance paladins. At lvl 9, you might have a +8 to your CON saves if we factor in your aura, but that's assuming you spent all your ASIs into pumping CHA. But vengeance paladins often want for more, they want PAM, they want STR, and they want GWM. At least if devotion pumps CHA all the way, their sacred weapon compensates by adding to their to-hit. That's to say, I wouldn't count on a vengeance paladin to have that great of a concentration saving throw, all things considered. You could, but I really wouldn't bet on it. Spirit shroud, for all intents and purposes, fulfills the offensive purpose that haste supposedly offers
So while you took Fey Touched our Vengeance Paladin took say resilient: Con, and rounded up his con to 16 easy. The +3 from that, plus his +3 from Cha, plus his +4 proficiency places him at making concentration checks at a +10. If they took war caster at any point they're making these checks at advantage. Yeah, you could build him out such that you fastrack to a 20 strength and dump everything into big-weapon-smash feats but you certainly don't need to, and, arguable probably shouldn't. And hey, if you did? you're still rocking a +6 concentration minimum. And guess what, if you went this route... fun fact: Bless probably does more DPR than spirit shroud anyway lol. so you'd only really be concentrating on that unless, like we mentioned, you had a cleric doing it for you.
Bless is increasing your damage alone, at that point, by 2.5 per hit. Spirit shroud would be 4.5. But since bless is, A, targeting 2+ allies also, and B, increasing your rate of hit not damage per hit, it also means you can more consistently smite. So when you're high-fuel-dpr-burning spell slots that 2.5 extra jumps to 4.8 extra damage per swing. And, again, still boosting allies while you're at it.
If you're a devotion-bro is isn't surprising you prefer spirit shroud though, since it is a static+ damage per HIT, and devotion has higher hit rate. For you it feels strong. But on a Veng palli who hits less often but really knocks them out of the park when they do hit, something that just gives them an extra hit wins out.... but something that increases their hit-rate is just as good.
I once did a three round comparison of haste and spirit shrouds assuming two PAM+GWM paladins. My conclusion? Haste just barely beats out spirit shrouds. To me, "barely" doesn't justify the risk haste carries of losing out an entire round. However, you won't be using GWM indiscriminately. You should be turning it off when it mathematically makes sense to if you understand your AC thresholds. In those circumstances, Spirit Shroud wins out by a decent margin. Averages are averages, whether or not you're tacking on damage to a hit or just doing another hit all together, it doesn't really change the conclusion all that much. I don't want to bother with the math at this point, since spirit shrouds and haste are so similar in DPR output, but if Bless outperforms spirit shroud in DPR, then it is absolutely beating out Haste as well.
Now, if you take res:con, you're exacerbating the issues of CHA vs damage feats even further in regards to character progression. Not only did you forgo a damage feat or a STR increase, but you also went and neglected CHA. And for what? Just to keep haste with security? Your party gets worse saving throws now. I don't know if that's a fair trade, especially when CHA improves your concentration saving throws as well.
I'd rather run the risk of losing concentration. At least if I do so, going with spirit shrouds won't cost me more than it should.
'if you're going to raise cha regardless' - when you do so matters. Most campaigns are getting close to the end by level 8, and that's assuming they even make it that far. getting a feat at level 4 vs. level 8 for most paladins is going to be the difference between having that feat for most of their career and not having it for most of their career. And taking fey touched at 4 and whatever other feat at 8 also means you'll probably be finishing up your campaign with your starting weapon stat, which really is putting you noticeably behind on attack accuracy when you're getting to what are probably the climactic final encounters. Plus, there are lots of amazing feats for Paladins, and two different primary stats to raise, so saying 'oh you can just push back whatever you would have done with your level 4 ASI to level 8' doesn't mean things become even at level 8, since you're now pushing back whatever you would have done at level 8 as well.
You also can't just disregard buffs. Both of these subclasses have significant bonuses to accuracy for one fight per short rest (ie half the time given the game's assumed daily encounter structure), which is exactly why these specific paladins lean more heavily into weapon feats than any other. If you are concerned about accuracy, again polearm master is a valid alternative, especially for the vengeance paladin in this comparison. And this is only accuracy buffs that the paladin is generating for themselves, it doesn't even take into account allies generating bonuses to hit (say a cleric casting bless) or advantage on attacks (bards or druids casting faerie fire, wizards or sorcerers casting fog cloud for a paladin with the blind fighting combat style, etc). If the party is working together, there's a good chance the paladin might won't have to deal with that assumed base 60% accuracy rate at all, especially if the paladin is OoV or OoD.
Again, feats aren't free. The things most of my paladins would have done for a bonus feat! Variant Human is one of the very top racial choices for paladins in general precisely because they get a bonus feat. Paladins aren't Fighters, with their Single Ability Dependency and their bonus ASIs to throw around. For a paladin every feat is precious. 'vengeance's best-in-class oath spell list doesn't matter because you can spend one of your rare and valuable ASI slots to replicate it' just isn't a good argument.
Again, feats aren't free. The things most of my paladins would have done for a bonus feat! Variant Human is one of the very top racial choices for paladins in general precisely because they get a bonus feat. Paladins aren't Fighters, with their Single Ability Dependency and their bonus ASIs to throw around. For a paladin every feat is precious. 'vengeance's best-in-class oath spell list doesn't matter because you can spend one of your rare and valuable ASI slots to replicate it' just isn't a good argument.
You're absolutely right that a paladin that takes GWM should ideally have the support of their party to shore up those weaknesses in accuracy. In practice, however, I find you can't trust your team mates to properly support you any further than you can toss them. Just the mere fact a player properly utilizes battlefield control makes them the de facto power gamer of the table. Doesn't mean it won't happen, or that it can't, but I really wouldn't base a generalization on that. Simply put, it's just easier to look a things from a simplified point of view. 6 vs 5.5, that's not a big difference for me to regret forgoing GWM at 4th level.
But listen, while feats aren't free, this one's a practical given. Believe me, I'm a GWM junkie, but even I have to concede when it comes to making the right choice. You're right, paladins aren't fighters-- they're half casters. They have magic to utilize, and the more variety they have, the better. If a player wanted to make a paladin with access to a good spell list, they might look at vengeance and think "Oh man, this one has misty step! and Haste! But boy, I sure wish conquest could have it. Oh wait, there's a neat feat, and it increases my CHA, too! Oh wow, I can take this spirit shroud instead for similar damage increase! Wow, What a no-brainer, I'll just take this feat and this spell, and play this subclass." And just like that, the OoV's spell list loses appeal.
Now, you've brought up the fact that this ultimately means delaying a crucial damage feat. The math tends to back up the idea that sustainably, there isn't much difference between taking it or not during early levels. But as you gain more proficiency and better assets to increase your to-hit (magic weapons or better team support), then GWM becomes a more practical tool. Good thing that point is around lvls 8-9. Until then, it's not that big a deal to miss out.
However, it is a big deal to improve your aura of protection. You imply that increasing CHA early is not the right choice, why is that? Again, it affects multiple things, and in the case of fey touch, can even affect damage output as well. It's a lot more impactful to start with a +4 aura instead of a +3. Again, you're also a half-caster. Your spellcasting depends on charisma, why wouldn't you want to increase it?
Of course, however, you can argue that it's a matter of personal preference that you'd rather take GWM as your first choice at 4th level. But it doesn't change mathematical statements, and it doesn't change the validity in improving other crucial stats.
Wow, I’m positively impressed that Ancients is the favorite overall. One of my favorites indeed.
Since flavor is free and you can basically run your characterization as you want regardless your subclass, I’ll talk more from the mechanical play perspective. I have played several Paladins and enjoyed all the time. The basic chassis of the class, Divine Smite, Aura of Protection and the spell selection are really powerful and versatile when needed.
To be completely honest, however, from Devotion to Ancients and Vengeance, I don’t see a huge change in game play. You get couple special spells, some good CDs or Aura that boost offense or defense. But more or less, the main principle is the same: hold your position and Smite the hell out of the most dangerous creature next on initiative. If you have time to setup, cast or activate some nice buff to you or your party, and lay down the Divine Smite hammer of justice upon the baddies.
And that’s why I truly like Conquest Paladin. Their level 7 aura coupled with their CD and some spells offer a totally different way to play your Paladin! Much more focused on battlefield control through the amazing mechanics of fear. Divine Smite became like my “Plan B” or my go-to when facing fear immunity creatures (which sadly are abundant), but boy… when at least two melee brutes got stuck in my aura, we knew victory would be certain. My group planned their tactics around this ability, improving our capabilities to attack at distance, with reach and provoke fear as much as possible in your enemies. Our Wizard got Summon Undead only because of that, my own Paladin that I envisioned playing sword & board style of course changed to the infamous Polearm style in order to have reach.
And once fear was not an option because of immunity or legendary resistance or anything else, I was just doing regular Bless/Smite things that all these Oath can do as well.
I did mention a devotion's spell list-- as being part of the chassis. There's no need to go further than that, but if you'd like more out of that, then consider that they're spells a paladin will want to take anyways. Sure, any paladin can have them, but we don't have to worry about preparing them. Now we can extend our choices to be more eclectic. An OoV paladin might find themselves wanting to pick them up, and having to weigh the opportunity cost of doing so versus other choices. Devotion gets that choice freed up, while picking up an optimal feat choice for their progression that lands them the spell and another choice ontop of it. If vengeance takes misty step, they'd get less benefit out of it because they already know the spell. The fact that devotion don't know it, you can argue is something in their favor with how potent an option fey touched is.
Your argument is the fact that vengeance paladin has a spell that devotion paladin must take a feat to get access to... means devotion is better.
Concentration can still be an issue for vengeance paladins. At lvl 9, you might have a +8 to your CON saves if we factor in your aura, but that's assuming you spent all your ASIs into pumping CHA. But vengeance paladins often want for more, they want PAM, they want STR, and they want GWM. At least if devotion pumps CHA all the way, their sacred weapon compensates by adding to their to-hit. That's to say, I wouldn't count on a vengeance paladin to have that great of a concentration saving throw, all things considered. You could, but I really wouldn't bet on it. Spirit shroud, for all intents and purposes, fulfills the offensive purpose that haste supposedly offers
Yeah, you could build him out such that you fastrack to a 20 strength and dump everything into big-weapon-smash feats but you certainly don't need to, and, arguable probably shouldn't. And hey, if you did? you're still rocking a +6 concentration minimum. And guess what, if you went this route... fun fact: Bless probably does more DPR than spirit shroud anyway lol. so you'd only really be concentrating on that unless, like we mentioned, you had a cleric doing it for you.
Bless is increasing your damage alone, at that point, by 2.5 per hit. Spirit shroud would be 4.5. But since bless is, A, targeting 2+ allies also, and B, increasing your rate of hit not damage per hit, it also means you can more consistently smite. So when you're high-fuel-dpr-burning spell slots that 2.5 extra jumps to 4.8 extra damage per swing. And, again, still boosting allies while you're at it.
If you're a devotion-bro is isn't surprising you prefer spirit shroud though, since it is a static+ damage per HIT, and devotion has higher hit rate. For you it feels strong. But on a Veng palli who hits less often but really knocks them out of the park when they do hit, something that just gives them an extra hit wins out.... but something that increases their hit-rate is just as good.
I once did a three round comparison of haste and spirit shrouds assuming two PAM+GWM paladins. My conclusion? Haste just barely beats out spirit shrouds. To me, "barely" doesn't justify the risk haste carries of losing out an entire round.
Yeah, Haste is more DPR, just barely. But, then also +AC/Dex saves and increased movement speed on top of that.
If you don't need the AC and movement speed Spirit Shroud is a safer option, sure. But...again, Bless is even better. If you were going to cast Spirit Shroud you might have been better off Blessing and then burning that 3rd level slot on a smite at some point. Like the time you crit because you have advantage on your attacks against the BBEG because you vow of enmity'd as a bonus action...
Again, feats aren't free. The things most of my paladins would have done for a bonus feat! Variant Human is one of the very top racial choices for paladins in general precisely because they get a bonus feat. Paladins aren't Fighters, with their Single Ability Dependency and their bonus ASIs to throw around. For a paladin every feat is precious. 'vengeance's best-in-class oath spell list doesn't matter because you can spend one of your rare and valuable ASI slots to replicate it' just isn't a good argument.
You're absolutely right that a paladin that takes GWM should ideally have the support of their party to shore up those weaknesses in accuracy. In practice, however, I find you can't trust your team mates to properly support you any further than you can toss them. Just the mere fact a player properly utilizes battlefield control makes them the de facto power gamer of the table. Doesn't mean it won't happen, or that it can't, but I really wouldn't base a generalization on that. Simply put, it's just easier to look a things from a simplified point of view. 6 vs 5.5, that's not a big difference for me to regret forgoing GWM at 4th level.
Sorry to hear you've had difficulty with teamwork. This is a teamwork game. Have you ever seen what happens when a party really does concentrate power into one party member? It can be a thing of wonder. But it needs to be the right kind of character for it to be really, really worth it. And, funnily enough, a GWM Vengeance paladin is exactly such a perfect candidate.
Why? Because they sacrifice a ton of accuracy for a ton of damage per hit. Potentially an obscene amount if they're burning smites. So anything their teammates do to increase accuracy or give extra attacks is going to have a massive effect. Giving them a +1d4 to hit is a 5-20% extra chance to hit with that absolutely earth shattering amount of damage, we're talking like 30 or so damage per hit even at low-ish levels, easily, vs giving that same bonus to the guy who is wielding a longsword or something for like average maybe 10, or if Devotion and smiting maybe 20. Vengeance Paladin makes for the perfect "tip of the spear".
Giving them an additional attack? Huge damage. Giving them advantage on attacks? Huge damage. Giving them static +s to hit, huge damage. And all of these are very possible with teamwork in a way that the devotion paladin can't make up for. Because teamwork isn't going to dramatically increase how much damage the devotion paladin does when they do hit. They're already very accurate per hit but those hits just do less.
But you'll notice, the things that make the Veng paladin supercharged are also things the Veng paladin can also do for themselves when needed. If you have a mage haste you? Nice you don't need to you can give the +hit from bless instead, and on demand advantage. Go time! Instead have a cleric giving the +hit? No worries, now instead you give yourself the haste and the on demand advantage, still go time! You got a cleric and a mage buffing? Oh boi now we can spirit shroud and REALLY go to town.
If you are concerned that your parties never seem to work well together, maybe make a character that promotes working together. Vengeance Paladin does so.
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I'd like to debate that part by first examining what spells OoV gets.
Bane and hunters mark at 3rd level: I'm having a hard time trying to justify why you'd want to use bane over bless. the paladin has access to both, both cost an action, both target 3 creatures, yet one works 100% of the time, while the other approximately 60% of the time. Hunter's mark may look alright, but consider that the average roll is 3.5, then consider that it's actually less than that due to hit probability. In actuality, hunter's mark is 2.1 DPR added. In other words, to outperform a 1st level smite (same slot cost) within tier 1, you would need at least 5 rounds of combat, and that's if you don't lose concentration by then, because unlike hunter's mark, using smite depends on when we hit things, so it's always going to be 9 DPR on average extra. In tier 2, this is alleviated by requiring only a third round of combat, but the first round may be spent on their channel divinity or a misty step. It's got competition, so it's harder to quantify when it might be activated, so, a 1st level smite can still easily out perform it.
Devotion gets sanctuary, a non-concentration spell that you can just toss onto yourself at the end of a round as a bonus action, or on another target, and retains use throughout your career. Toss it onto a concentrating caster thats dodging turn after turn, they're now realllly hard to hit. Toss it onto your steed, now they're better guarded even without added tools like mounted combatant feat, thereby making it a lot more useable in combat than it is for other paladins.
when we talk about 2nd level spells, devotion pretty much gets nothing special that the chassis doesn't already offer, but OoV gets misty step and hold person. Useful, sure, and maybe exactly one year ago I would have said hands down the OoV has the better spells here, but Tasha's is now a thing. Fey touched is now a thing. Starting with a 17 CHA is easily doable for most race options, and so taking fey touched at fourth level is very feasible if not optimal. Now any paladin can have misty step, and other paladin subclasses get more mileage out of it. Now that just leaves with hold person, and while nice it is pretty niche.
3rd level spells, OoV notably gets haste. In terms of defense, haste offers a good amount, but whether or not it's a good idea to have the one concentrating on haste also be the one that's in melee combat for the sake of offensive capibility, that's a whole other story. For offensive capability and thanks to Tasha's once again, spirit shroud is arguably better, and that's something all paladins have access to. Devotion has Beacon of Hope, which is a great spell to use in combat or just after combat, and it ultimately saves resources for the whole party.
From this point out, spells gained are more than likely not happening since most campaigns fizzle out well before this point.
I don't think OoV 's spell list is all that impressive in a post-tasha's world.
Yeah the spells look better in a vacuum I do think overall I would still give vengeance the edge in spells, haste is pretty strong, yeah the paladin might fail concentration but they should have a high con and its a very powerful spell.
I think again it's sorta situational, I think people look at say hunters mark see it that it uses a d6 and say its better than divine favor, which for a lot of situations it probably will be, but slap on polearm master and I'd rather have divine favor so im not wasting my BA moving hunters mark for an average of 1 more damage per hit
Though I have to say I find hunters mark, divine favor and hex to be a bit.. overblown in how actually useful they are as spells. I think hex can be the best simply because it grants the target a negative, I've been using it some in our group as a feytouched sorcerer when our paladin has shield master. Helps get those shoving prones off more
Devotion's level 7 and 15 abilities are exceptionally good! Not sure most players truly get just how good they are? Hands down, both Devotion abilities at these levels are superior to the Vengeance equivalents.
I like Vengeance's spell list better, with Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, Haste (love me some haste lol) and Prot from Energy can be quite good, situationally. Banishment is a spell I like, just not as much at level 13, compared to when full casters get it. Dimension Door and Hold Monster are both good spells. But for a paladin with very few high level spell slots, a "save or suck" WIS save with Hold Monster might be just wasting your only 5th slot (and do you have the CHA to back up the save DC?). But hey, if it works, it's very powerful! Scrying you only, or rarely use, if you are not adventuring that day imo.
Devotion's spell list isn't quite as good, but few duds also. It mostly has options I would have taken and prepared anyway. Prot from Evil/Good and Lesser Restoration, I would always have prepared (although, once you hit level 15 the Prot from Evil/Good won't be of much use). Beacon of Hope and Dispel Magic are both pretty good, but both are situational and neither is Haste level of good imo. Freedom of Movement can be critical and is a very strong option. Guardian of Faith...good for a cleric, bad for a paladin imo. Neither Vengeance nor Devotion have great 5th level spells, now that I look at it. Flame Strike is kind of a worse Fireball (shorter range, smaller AoE and a 5th level spell slot). I put Commune in the same boat as Scrying. Probably only using it for thematic reasons and on a day off. Tough to spend a 5th level slot on that, when you have so few.
Btw, funny that so much time has been spent on two paladin oaths that are very close in overall power, Vengeance and Devotion. If you like one more than the other, fine. If you think one is marginally better than the other, fine. But let's not act like there is a huge gulf in their relative overall power or game play! They are both really good paladin options!
I don't even think either one is the most powerful paladin subclass, either. I think Conquest likely has that title. Watchers is quite good. People love the Ancients level 7 spell damage resistance aura. There are other good paladin subclasses with none of them being really bad. The base paladin class is strong, so all of them will be pretty strong imo.
Having a cleric in your party isn't unusual. If they're casting bless... you also casting bless might be doing exactly nothing. In this party comp, having someone use bless and the other using bane can be such a monumental swing in relative fortune between your party and the enemy that it alone can turn a hard fight into an easy one. Bless is hands down the better of the two, and should be prioritized for sure. But, you can do either. So if you got a holy combat buddy, you're not redundant.
Hunter's Mark? Super situational at best. We're going to have better things to do with our bonus action and our concentration. But, I guess if a high priority target tries to flee, slam this bad boy on them. I guess also if you plan on several fights in the next hour it could be super slot-efficient dpr boost. If you got one slot left and need to fight through a bunch of battles in quick succession, this spell is is the move. How often that happens is DM/Table dependent though so ymmv.
Sanctuary is fine. It can have clutch save-the-day moments. It can also just burn spell slots for no effect. Absolutely a good option in the spell list no question.
Which is better? Honestly at this point neither of them are really all that noteworthy TBH. They're mediocre, but on-brand for the subclass feel. Both adequate.
I feel the need to really call your attention to the fact you just compared their spells, default spells, to a feat. Sure, a half feat. All the same, when your argument is "You can get this feature by taking a feat" you are clearly identifying how powerful that feature actually is. Feats are an incredibly powerful and precious resource.
And you're right, it is powerful. Misty step is worth infesting a feat into getting access to it. Vengeance gets it for free.
Your argument boils down to the fact that Vengeance paladins are not +1 feat over other paladins. Yes, a half feat, but all the same. That's a huge win for this spell level comparison.
And, we haven't even talked about the other fantastic option, Hold Person. Yes, this will be campaign dependent. If you're out in the wilderness fighting dinosaurs and dire wolves this spell isn't doing you much good. But when you're fighting cultists, or... well, the lawman... being able to Paralyze them is huge. It is functionally the first real save or die spell. Since all hits on the paralyzed target are crits and the act of hitting them doesn't release them from the spell.
But you know what is even more telling about how clear a blow-out the comparison is at this level? You don't even mention what devotion gets at all! Not a single word defending those spells. Why? Because as a Paladin you already have access to both of them. Devotion gets nothing at this level.
By this point, 9th level, you're unlikely to lose concentration unless something is absolutely rocking your world. But you'd probably have some idea that was going to be the case before casting Haste. While active it isn't just an offense boost, but also a defensive boost and a mobility boost. That's a three-for. Spirit Shroud is nice, absolutely, it offers an offensive boost and a minor control function. Which is better is going to depend on the battle. Vengeance gets to pick. Devotion doesn't.
And Beacon of Hope is great, for sure. I'm not going to argue it isn't a great resource saving spell in some situations. it absolutely can be. I just don't like it for paladins, prefer it on clerics. That's just a personal taste thing though. I wouldn't roll a paladin if I was trying to be party healer.
Ultimately that really is what it comes down to. What role are you trying to fill? I like paladins for the badass who kicks in the door and smites evil. The defenses and utility and heals just help me do that. But, if the heals and utility are your goal, and you see your paladin as a protector of the group? You make paladins to fill a different role, one I'd probably have made a cleric to fulfill, personally. Neither is wrong though, and, quite the contrary both have tools to get those respective jobs done fairly well.
I got quotes!
You cannot guarantee a party composition. You cannot guarantee there'll be another cleric in the party. I play in parties without clerics more often than not. Bad luck? Maybe. But it's telling me enough that the question remains, the option to cast bless or bane favors bless. Sanctuary is flat out fantastic, especially on a steed that'll never attack in combat. Suppose there is a cleric that does cast bless on several martials with GWM+PAM, or CBE+SS-- if they just dodge every turn, their contributed DPR is higher than a warlock's with hex+EB. Casting sanctuary on such a cleric would absolutely help a ton to that cause!
Now, a paladin is going to want to increase their CHA regardless of their oath, because CHA ties in to so many things. Their aura, their skills, their spells, their channel divinities. So, if they're going to increase their CHA anyways, they might as well take fey touched. Increase main stat AND access a power mobility spell? It's too good to pass up, especially on a class that's traditionally lacking in ranged options. You could start with it, or you could take it at 4th level. Either way, you can have it soon.
I did mention a devotion's spell list-- as being part of the chassis. There's no need to go further than that, but if you'd like more out of that, then consider that they're spells a paladin will want to take anyways. Sure, any paladin can have them, but we don't have to worry about preparing them. Now we can extend our choices to be more eclectic. An OoV paladin might find themselves wanting to pick them up, and having to weigh the opportunity cost of doing so versus other choices. Devotion gets that choice freed up, while picking up an optimal feat choice for their progression that lands them the spell and another choice ontop of it. If vengeance takes misty step, they'd get less benefit out of it because they already know the spell. The fact that devotion don't know it, you can argue is something in their favor with how potent an option fey touched is.
Concentration can still be an issue for vengeance paladins. At lvl 9, you might have a +8 to your CON saves if we factor in your aura, but that's assuming you spent all your ASIs into pumping CHA. But vengeance paladins often want for more, they want PAM, they want STR, and they want GWM. At least if devotion pumps CHA all the way, their sacred weapon compensates by adding to their to-hit. That's to say, I wouldn't count on a vengeance paladin to have that great of a concentration saving throw, all things considered. You could, but I really wouldn't bet on it. Spirit shroud, for all intents and purposes, fulfills the offensive purpose that haste supposedly offers
Fey touched can be a good choice, but it may also depend where their stats lie. If they end up with an odd cha score, then sure. But considering they'll want high strength and high cha, you may not want to give up half of your ASI increases depending on where your stats fall and how high of a level you expect the campaign to go.
Feats aren't free, especially for a class like paladin with heavy demand on multiple stats and significant pressure on feats they already want to take. Starting with a 17 charisma is certainly possible, but in a point buy system it's going to cost you elsewhere - generally either a lower constitution, wisdom, or dexterity mod. More significantly, taking Fey Touched at level four means you aren't taking Sentinel or Polarm Master or Great Weapon Master at that level. This is especially significant for Vengeance and Devotion paladins, both of which have build-defining CDs that really want you to take weapon feats (mostly great weapon master, but polearm master is a competitive alternative, especially for vengeance) to make the most of them. If in the comparison we say Devotion has to take fey touched at level four where vengeance can take great weapon master or polearm master at that level, then the vengeance paladin in that comparison loses their advantage in mobility from access to misty step, but instead gains an arguably even more significant advantage in damage output for at least 4 levels.
And if you're not aiming to focus on damage output, then it's still the difference between having & not having Sentinel, or Inspiring Leader, or Lucky, or Resilient Con, or War Caster. Yes, Fey Touched is a fantastic feat, but there are lots of fantastic feats for paladins, so reducing the Vengeance Paladin's superior oath spell list to "it just saves you a feat" isn't really a reduction at all.
As for Hunter's Mark, it's not amazing, no, but in dungeon delving environments you'll often be able to get more than one encounter's use out of its hour long duration, at which point it's much more likely to outstrip a level 1 smite's damage even before level 5. Admittedly, though, the advantage in the Vengeance Paladin's spell list is really more about Misty Step, Haste, and Dimension Door.
I do think Vengeance and Devotion are very comparable, especially once Devotion's level 7 feature comes online. I give an edge to vengeance for the spells, but only just. I'dstill put both of them below watchers, and about on par with conquest, though that's a tough comparison. Conquests features overall are more significant and more consistently good for what conquest is trying to do, but what conquest is trying to do doesn't stack as naturally with the paladin base class is doing by default. I'd put both vengeance and devotion above ancients, glory, crown, and redemption. All of those are good, again there are no bad paladin subclasses since paladin itself is good on its own before you even look at oath features, but I don't think those others do as much or as well.
Vengeance is also a more prone to multiclassing, since its level 7 feature is lacking. I'd count that as more of a negative, except there are multiple classes that paladin multiclasses into extremely well. In a game without multiclassing I'd probably give the edge to devotion over vengeance in my own rankings, but again only just barely.
Your argument is the fact that vengeance paladin has a spell that devotion paladin must take a feat to get access to... means devotion is better.
I don't mean to be rude, but that doesn't make any sense.
Rounding out an odd stat isn't limited to just Cha, Strength especially, but even Con are contenders as well. So, instead of Fey Touched they could take-
Strength:
Constitution:
Charisma:
This is not exhaustive lists of options obviously, just semi decent choices available to you. There are more if you're doing interesting builds of course. So the Vengeance Paladin would have the benefit of their pick of one of these while the devotion paladin would gain access to... what the vengeance paladin already has.
So while you took Fey Touched our Vengeance Paladin took say resilient: Con, and rounded up his con to 16 easy. The +3 from that, plus his +3 from Cha, plus his +4 proficiency places him at making concentration checks at a +10. If they took war caster at any point they're making these checks at advantage. Yeah, you could build him out such that you fastrack to a 20 strength and dump everything into big-weapon-smash feats but you certainly don't need to, and, arguable probably shouldn't. And hey, if you did? you're still rocking a +6 concentration minimum. And guess what, if you went this route... fun fact: Bless probably does more DPR than spirit shroud anyway lol. so you'd only really be concentrating on that unless, like we mentioned, you had a cleric doing it for you.
Bless is increasing your damage alone, at that point, by 2.5 per hit. Spirit shroud would be 4.5. But since bless is, A, targeting 2+ allies also, and B, increasing your rate of hit not damage per hit, it also means you can more consistently smite. So when you're high-fuel-dpr-burning spell slots that 2.5 extra jumps to 4.8 extra damage per swing. And, again, still boosting allies while you're at it.
Haste? How does that stack up? You'd have 3 attacks without it, assuming we went PAM, so shroud would be adding UP TO +3d8 a turn. Maybe an extra d8 on opp attacks. But haste is adding a whole extra attack. So 1d10+15. Since we're taking a whoppin -5 to hit our chance to hit is pretty low. So we're certainly not connecting with all those shroud boosting hits. But even if we did hit all 4d8 from it, shroud is giving us avg 18 extra damage per round, while just getting that extra hit in is instead 20.5 avg. So haste is doing more damage than shroud here too, plus also giving defensive and mobility options.
If you're a devotion-bro is isn't surprising you prefer spirit shroud though, since it is a static+ damage per HIT, and devotion has higher hit rate. For you it feels strong. But on a Veng palli who hits less often but really knocks them out of the park when they do hit, something that just gives them an extra hit wins out.... but something that increases their hit-rate is just as good.
I got quotes!
It isn't so much that "it saves you a feat." Rather, if you're going to increase CHA regardless, you might as well pick up the best way for it. Now, as for not taking GWM at that point, you have to keep in mind, your average DPR plummets hard using GWM, assuming resources are not being used. Say we have two paladins, one takes GWM at 4th level, the other increases CHA via fey touched. If the curve has us landing our hits 60% of the time, being behind puts us at 55%, and GWM furthers that down to 30%. Assuming a greatsword and a 3 STR modifier and GWM, we're at 20 per swing. 20*.3= 6 DPR on average.
the paladin that goes for fey touched is doing just 10 a swing (7+3). Being behind the curve just slightly, 10*.55= 5.5 DPR. It's practically identical. Yes, GWM is still an increase, and yes, this is without resource expenditure. The difference becomes more notable when you toss in things like bless, and vow of enmity, but now the other paladin's got more spells prepared, a better spell DC, better social skills, and later on a better aura for a better saving throw for themselves and everyone else. If damage's a concern, they can at least shore it up with the spell fey touch grants (in this case, a free hunter's mark or hex is better than not having it.)
In the case of devotion, increasing CHA first via fey touched is not a bad idea, because it all goes into improving sacred weapon as well. Later on, we can take GWM at 8th, it's not that big a detriment.
I once did a three round comparison of haste and spirit shrouds assuming two PAM+GWM paladins. My conclusion? Haste just barely beats out spirit shrouds. To me, "barely" doesn't justify the risk haste carries of losing out an entire round. However, you won't be using GWM indiscriminately. You should be turning it off when it mathematically makes sense to if you understand your AC thresholds. In those circumstances, Spirit Shroud wins out by a decent margin. Averages are averages, whether or not you're tacking on damage to a hit or just doing another hit all together, it doesn't really change the conclusion all that much. I don't want to bother with the math at this point, since spirit shrouds and haste are so similar in DPR output, but if Bless outperforms spirit shroud in DPR, then it is absolutely beating out Haste as well.
Now, if you take res:con, you're exacerbating the issues of CHA vs damage feats even further in regards to character progression. Not only did you forgo a damage feat or a STR increase, but you also went and neglected CHA. And for what? Just to keep haste with security? Your party gets worse saving throws now. I don't know if that's a fair trade, especially when CHA improves your concentration saving throws as well.
I'd rather run the risk of losing concentration. At least if I do so, going with spirit shrouds won't cost me more than it should.
'if you're going to raise cha regardless' - when you do so matters. Most campaigns are getting close to the end by level 8, and that's assuming they even make it that far. getting a feat at level 4 vs. level 8 for most paladins is going to be the difference between having that feat for most of their career and not having it for most of their career. And taking fey touched at 4 and whatever other feat at 8 also means you'll probably be finishing up your campaign with your starting weapon stat, which really is putting you noticeably behind on attack accuracy when you're getting to what are probably the climactic final encounters. Plus, there are lots of amazing feats for Paladins, and two different primary stats to raise, so saying 'oh you can just push back whatever you would have done with your level 4 ASI to level 8' doesn't mean things become even at level 8, since you're now pushing back whatever you would have done at level 8 as well.
You also can't just disregard buffs. Both of these subclasses have significant bonuses to accuracy for one fight per short rest (ie half the time given the game's assumed daily encounter structure), which is exactly why these specific paladins lean more heavily into weapon feats than any other. If you are concerned about accuracy, again polearm master is a valid alternative, especially for the vengeance paladin in this comparison. And this is only accuracy buffs that the paladin is generating for themselves, it doesn't even take into account allies generating bonuses to hit (say a cleric casting bless) or advantage on attacks (bards or druids casting faerie fire, wizards or sorcerers casting fog cloud for a paladin with the blind fighting combat style, etc). If the party is working together, there's a good chance the paladin might won't have to deal with that assumed base 60% accuracy rate at all, especially if the paladin is OoV or OoD.
Again, feats aren't free. The things most of my paladins would have done for a bonus feat! Variant Human is one of the very top racial choices for paladins in general precisely because they get a bonus feat. Paladins aren't Fighters, with their Single Ability Dependency and their bonus ASIs to throw around. For a paladin every feat is precious. 'vengeance's best-in-class oath spell list doesn't matter because you can spend one of your rare and valuable ASI slots to replicate it' just isn't a good argument.
You're absolutely right that a paladin that takes GWM should ideally have the support of their party to shore up those weaknesses in accuracy. In practice, however, I find you can't trust your team mates to properly support you any further than you can toss them. Just the mere fact a player properly utilizes battlefield control makes them the de facto power gamer of the table. Doesn't mean it won't happen, or that it can't, but I really wouldn't base a generalization on that. Simply put, it's just easier to look a things from a simplified point of view. 6 vs 5.5, that's not a big difference for me to regret forgoing GWM at 4th level.
But listen, while feats aren't free, this one's a practical given. Believe me, I'm a GWM junkie, but even I have to concede when it comes to making the right choice. You're right, paladins aren't fighters-- they're half casters. They have magic to utilize, and the more variety they have, the better. If a player wanted to make a paladin with access to a good spell list, they might look at vengeance and think "Oh man, this one has misty step! and Haste! But boy, I sure wish conquest could have it. Oh wait, there's a neat feat, and it increases my CHA, too! Oh wow, I can take this spirit shroud instead for similar damage increase! Wow, What a no-brainer, I'll just take this feat and this spell, and play this subclass." And just like that, the OoV's spell list loses appeal.
Now, you've brought up the fact that this ultimately means delaying a crucial damage feat. The math tends to back up the idea that sustainably, there isn't much difference between taking it or not during early levels. But as you gain more proficiency and better assets to increase your to-hit (magic weapons or better team support), then GWM becomes a more practical tool. Good thing that point is around lvls 8-9. Until then, it's not that big a deal to miss out.
However, it is a big deal to improve your aura of protection. You imply that increasing CHA early is not the right choice, why is that? Again, it affects multiple things, and in the case of fey touch, can even affect damage output as well. It's a lot more impactful to start with a +4 aura instead of a +3. Again, you're also a half-caster. Your spellcasting depends on charisma, why wouldn't you want to increase it?
Of course, however, you can argue that it's a matter of personal preference that you'd rather take GWM as your first choice at 4th level. But it doesn't change mathematical statements, and it doesn't change the validity in improving other crucial stats.
Wow, I’m positively impressed that Ancients is the favorite overall. One of my favorites indeed.
Since flavor is free and you can basically run your characterization as you want regardless your subclass, I’ll talk more from the mechanical play perspective. I have played several Paladins and enjoyed all the time. The basic chassis of the class, Divine Smite, Aura of Protection and the spell selection are really powerful and versatile when needed.
To be completely honest, however, from Devotion to Ancients and Vengeance, I don’t see a huge change in game play. You get couple special spells, some good CDs or Aura that boost offense or defense. But more or less, the main principle is the same: hold your position and Smite the hell out of the most dangerous creature next on initiative. If you have time to setup, cast or activate some nice buff to you or your party, and lay down the Divine Smite hammer of justice upon the baddies.
And that’s why I truly like Conquest Paladin. Their level 7 aura coupled with their CD and some spells offer a totally different way to play your Paladin! Much more focused on battlefield control through the amazing mechanics of fear. Divine Smite became like my “Plan B” or my go-to when facing fear immunity creatures (which sadly are abundant), but boy… when at least two melee brutes got stuck in my aura, we knew victory would be certain. My group planned their tactics around this ability, improving our capabilities to attack at distance, with reach and provoke fear as much as possible in your enemies. Our Wizard got Summon Undead only because of that, my own Paladin that I envisioned playing sword & board style of course changed to the infamous Polearm style in order to have reach.
And once fear was not an option because of immunity or legendary resistance or anything else, I was just doing regular Bless/Smite things that all these Oath can do as well.
Yeah, Haste is more DPR, just barely. But, then also +AC/Dex saves and increased movement speed on top of that.
If you don't need the AC and movement speed Spirit Shroud is a safer option, sure. But...again, Bless is even better. If you were going to cast Spirit Shroud you might have been better off Blessing and then burning that 3rd level slot on a smite at some point. Like the time you crit because you have advantage on your attacks against the BBEG because you vow of enmity'd as a bonus action...
Sorry to hear you've had difficulty with teamwork. This is a teamwork game. Have you ever seen what happens when a party really does concentrate power into one party member? It can be a thing of wonder. But it needs to be the right kind of character for it to be really, really worth it. And, funnily enough, a GWM Vengeance paladin is exactly such a perfect candidate.
Why? Because they sacrifice a ton of accuracy for a ton of damage per hit. Potentially an obscene amount if they're burning smites. So anything their teammates do to increase accuracy or give extra attacks is going to have a massive effect. Giving them a +1d4 to hit is a 5-20% extra chance to hit with that absolutely earth shattering amount of damage, we're talking like 30 or so damage per hit even at low-ish levels, easily, vs giving that same bonus to the guy who is wielding a longsword or something for like average maybe 10, or if Devotion and smiting maybe 20. Vengeance Paladin makes for the perfect "tip of the spear".
Giving them an additional attack? Huge damage. Giving them advantage on attacks? Huge damage. Giving them static +s to hit, huge damage. And all of these are very possible with teamwork in a way that the devotion paladin can't make up for. Because teamwork isn't going to dramatically increase how much damage the devotion paladin does when they do hit. They're already very accurate per hit but those hits just do less.
But you'll notice, the things that make the Veng paladin supercharged are also things the Veng paladin can also do for themselves when needed. If you have a mage haste you? Nice you don't need to you can give the +hit from bless instead, and on demand advantage. Go time! Instead have a cleric giving the +hit? No worries, now instead you give yourself the haste and the on demand advantage, still go time! You got a cleric and a mage buffing? Oh boi now we can spirit shroud and REALLY go to town.
If you are concerned that your parties never seem to work well together, maybe make a character that promotes working together. Vengeance Paladin does so.
I got quotes!