Ok man again in 5e adventure league, the most by the rules version of the game that exists a player can have up to 3 magic items between lvl 1 to lvl 4 at lvl 5 you get a free magic item in the form of a +1 weapon or shield on top of a magic ring if you have the faction agent background.
5e is certainly not designed around low magic counts as every module shows differently. Third 750 is easily in gold by lvl 5. Season 9 of AL even hands out 2 +1 weapons at lvl 3 if you find them in Decent into Avernus.
Only in AL season 8 did they severely hamper gold and magic items. But this was done essentially not allowing you to find gold at all but instead recieved it from leveling up.
Again with 2 Magic items and a feat I can have a character 28 AC at lvl 5 or if you dismiss plate it's still a 26. A Paladin built correctly can have an AC as high as 39. so no 28 is not high.
Furthermore, in Decent into Avernus my character accumulated 1500 gold before going into Avernus in 7 person party.
I like Paladins as a concept, but I think the main reason I stay away from them is that I just sort of dislike their flavor? The smite mechanic is unique and makes them great damage dealers, but as was mentioned earlier, many people choose classes based on how they fit thematically, and not because of mechanics. So, what makes a paladin a paladin? When I picture a paladin, I think of a plate-armor clad warrior, with typically divine powers. I often think of them as rigid if not outright dogmatic; by their very nature they are bound by an ideal, something that has become their life's work. You could make a paladin who isn't uptight, or who isn't a law abiding citizen, but I think that making a paladin that is too laid back about their oath is essentially disregarding a large part of what makes a paladin interesting... and if I just wanted to be a paladin without the oaths, I would just be a fighter, a class that I personally feel grants me more freedom in terms of my backstory.
**EDIT**
I do actually like the Oath of the Ancients as an idea, its a cool way to play a druid-knight or green knight without needing to play ranger or dipping into druid (Though I do heavily prefer ranger to paladin in terms of aesthetic).
Ok man again in 5e adventure league, the most by the rules version of the game that exists a player can have up to 3 magic items between lvl 1 to lvl 4 at lvl 5 you get a free magic item in the form of a +1 weapon or shield on top of a magic ring if you have the faction agent background.
5e is certainly not designed around low magic counts as every module shows differently. Third 750 is easily in gold by lvl 5. Season 9 of AL even hands out 2 +1 weapons at lvl 3 if you find them in Decent into Avernus.
Only in AL season 8 did they severely hamper gold and magic items. But this was done essentially not allowing you to find gold at all but instead recieved it from leveling up.
Again with 2 Magic items and a feat I can have a character 28 AC at lvl 5 or if you dismiss plate it's still a 26. A Paladin built correctly can have an AC as high as 39. so no 28 is not high.
Furthermore, in Decent into Avernus my character accumulated 1500 gold before going into Avernus in 7 person party.
and adventurers league can do whatever they want, i don't care... by the book, in your whole career you are supposed to find magic items, at most 1 legendary. 3 very rare, and 5 rare. then the rest is all uncommon or common items... and thats exactly what the DMG treasure hoards does. with legendary items not really availlable until you are level 10+. but hey, whatever man, continu to think that giving players loot out of nowhere is the right way to go. and continu to think that what you just described me is awesome uber loot. i remember 3e pretty darn well... and at level 5 you had like 3 times that much items. now that was high magic settings.
also, jeremy crawford himself said you are not supposed to find big stuff until way later int he game. and whle +1 weapons to you seems like nothing... in a game where the maximum is +3... it is a lot at low levels. again... 5e is not designed with magic items in mind. they haven't calculated any magic items into their hard cap. the same is true for spells. sure with spells i can go all the way up to 30 AC. that doesn't mean they have calculated that. the real thing is, they didn't. the bounded accuracy is calculated without any magic items and without any spells. that was also said in numerous places by the design team themselves.
that said, play the way you want to. if you wanna give your paladins full plates at level 1 go for it. if you wanna give them a full plate +1 by level 3. be my guess. i don't care ! i'm just saying... a paladin shouldn't have 27 AC by level 5.
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I dislike the religious feel of the Paladin too. But I found a way around it. After all, the oath as written can be interpreted. In my head (and our campaign) we have a bit of a leeway around it.
I built a Conquest Paladin that is really more of a moral guide for campaigning soldiers than a religious zealot. She stems from an atheist empire, which seeks to eradicate religion actually, and specifically dragons. So she works as a spiritual and moral guide to the agent agitateur sent in advance of the main troops, a bit like a commissar in the USSR. In battle she sings litanies of hate to inspire her allies and terrify her ennemies.
To me that did the work around the oh so good and rigid paladins. As she works as part of infiltrating teams she has to be laid back, perniciously diffusing the empire's doctrine. So sneaky sneaky as a charisma based char skilled in deception, intimidation, forgery... until it gets stabby stabby and she smites the hell out of the hated believers that refuse to bow to the wisdom of the empire.
While I do understand that there is a long-standing picture of what a paladin is (rigid, stuffy, platemailed, holy warrior), I find myself looking around media franchises and seeing alternative ideas for paladins everywhere. For example:
The Jedi of Star Wars. The Jedi code is a suitable Oath as is and it provides a slightly different take. Balance, self-control, focus (and self-denial?) are the center rather than honor and honesty and glory. The powers don't exactly match up but it's a different take on how the paladin acts. Different struggles can challenge the Jedi paladin than the "classic" paladin (temptation of hatred, anger, and forbidden senators rather than traditional evil). Plus radiant damage means glowing sword. Oath of Devotion or Oath of Ancients both might work?
The Belmont family from Castlevania. If you dive into the lore and related media, the Belmonts are not shining paragons of society but rather hermits, vagabonds, scoundrels, and the like and they are often shunned from society until they are needed every so many years when Dracula comes back. But they are skilled monster/vampire hunters who use holy weapons and that seems like a paladin to me. Build using high dexterity, light armor, and a whip/rapier...and flavor as a prideful, confident, abrasive jerk who gets the job done. Oath of Devotion works.
Frog from Chrono Trigger. While the paladin class doesn't give you water magic, Frog is oathsworn to the queen and the kingdom to slay the evil wizard and is the chosen wielder of a sacred blade. Other than the "olde english" speech pattern, he doesn't really embody the negative parts of the classic paladin. Maybe his mentor was a more traditional paladin but Frog is his own evolution of the class. Oath of Vengeance makes sense as does Oath of Ancients to give you that nature feel. Using a race like Triton could give you water magic and a non-human form.
Bowen from Dragonheart. He's a swordsman and a knight sworn to the Old Code. This Code is very much similar to existing Oaths but the character is not all that similar to existing paladin stereotypes. Granted, at the middle of the movie he's a bit of a fallen knight and needs a reminder about his Code from a dragon and a visit to King Arthur's grave, but it's an example that is enough degrees removed from your paladin stereotype to be fresh and new. Personally I like Oath of Ancients because it's the Old Code and it's connected to dragons but Devotion works too.
That's just a few that crossed my mind. Plenty more out there to inspire you.
One other source of inspiration for paladins that I want to explore more which turns back into the divine/religion interpretation of the class is paladins of other D&D deities. Sure, the deities of honor and glory and warfare and good and law have their paladins...but what about the deities of luck or agriculture or knowledge or music?
One concept I have been sitting on for a while is a paladin of the god of knowledge (for whatever setting is to be used). There might only be one or two (a master and an apprentice). He mostly spends his time at the main temple/grand library, protecting the building. There isn't much need for protecting the building as the temple of knowledge is a well-respected neutral ground so much of his duties are more symbolic protection: making patrols, maintaining his weapons and armor, being a knight in shining armor. Maybe he protects the building from a few minor threats like thieves and rebellious youths. But he also has a solid set of plans for if there ever was a real threat: what entrances and exits are present, how to use the guards, how to arm the librarians, which corridors to barricade, where to make a stand, etc...all based on studies of battles and sieges from texts in the library. Occasionally, he'll escort a courier carrying a rare book or act as a defensive consult for smaller temples/libraries (who mostly get by with the local cleric and hired guards). As an NPC I see him as ridiculously high level, like in the high teen levels. He doesn't fight much but when he does, he is an amazing swordsman with a good array of magic. As a PC, he'd obviously be the level of the party and with a side mission to find books or something (and probably be the apprentice paladin).
My point, rambling as it might be, is that looking at a different deity or culture or race and extrapolating from there could give you a different take on a paladin.
as far as RP goes - it takes a special kind of person to play that kind of religious zealot - a lot of players IMHO would probably rather be liked by their team mates instead of being annoyed by their rigidness
Nothing in the description of the class suggests you have to be religious or a zealot; you just have to be someone sworn to destroy evil. There's a loooot of room for different character types in that concept, ranging from Superman/Captain America/Green Lantern types to anti-hero Batman types all the way down to killers like The Punisher.
And even for the religious zealot types, there's no reason to be irrational. Is getting yourself killed slaying mindless zombies really better than surviving to find their source? Kelemvor needs you alive to do his bidding.
For my Tiefling vengeance paladin, I went for a kind of hybrid between Solomon Kane and Punisher with Hellboy flavouring. He has little patience or mercy, slays evil wherever he finds it and his definition of 'evil' is a lot broader than most people's. One of his strongest viewpoints is that those who stand idle in the face of evil are no better those committing the act. This sometimes dips into not helping those who refuse to help themselves.
His oath is more of a promise to his adoptive father that he wouldn't become the monster everyone fears he is. So I have essentially flipped the oath and the personality, he himself is ruthless and unforgiving but he has made a promise to be a good man. Gives a good internal struggle. I'm half tempted to dip into barbarian to really show his temper.
As for the religious part, he follows Tritherion- god of liberty and retribution but again, that's more in honour of his adopted father as that is who he worshipped. His holy icon is actually one of his horns that snapped off and he has since carved symbols into. He holds it as more of a reminder of the path he is on and it gives him reassurance. The symbolism of something demonic, severed from it's origins but becoming an instrument of good and justice. I've found that his role in the group is actually the leader/decision maker. Rather than playing him as a zealot, he's just motivated, not easily distracted. He's not one to waste time and will cut to the heart of issues. so he's great at focusing the team. And he's the only one of the group who follows a god, but he's not in your face about it, it's more he's more one for quiet moments of reflection, telling himself 'you can do this'.
He's turned out to be a more complex character that I originally thought he'd be.
In combat he's definitely the one that draws the attacks and ties up the bigger threats, giving the team time to position themselves, clear out the smaller enemies, chip away the boss's hp etc.
I thoroughly enjoy playing him, currently at level 7.
Ok man again in 5e adventure league, the most by the rules version of the game that exists a player can have up to 3 magic items between lvl 1 to lvl 4 at lvl 5 you get a free magic item in the form of a +1 weapon or shield on top of a magic ring if you have the faction agent background.
5e is certainly not designed around low magic counts as every module shows differently. Third 750 is easily in gold by lvl 5. Season 9 of AL even hands out 2 +1 weapons at lvl 3 if you find them in Decent into Avernus.
Only in AL season 8 did they severely hamper gold and magic items. But this was done essentially not allowing you to find gold at all but instead recieved it from leveling up.
Again with 2 Magic items and a feat I can have a character 28 AC at lvl 5 or if you dismiss plate it's still a 26. A Paladin built correctly can have an AC as high as 39. so no 28 is not high.
Furthermore, in Decent into Avernus my character accumulated 1500 gold before going into Avernus in 7 person party.
it is 1 magic item at levels 1-4, 3 magic items at 5-10, 6 at 11-16 and 10 at 17-20
That doesnt say magic items are a rarity by any means in fact it completely contradicts magic items are a rarity.
You really dont have a creative min then when it comes to boosting AC if you think 27 isnt attainable at lvl 5. Just with Armor alone you can have a 25 AC easily at lvl 5 with plate and two uncommon magic items (+1 shield, ring of protection) and shield of Faith. Take Human Variet and defensive duelist and use a rapier and now you have an AC of 28 using your reaction or take another feat to gain access to shield and have an AC of 30.
I mean seriously you really show you have no understanding of how to boost AC by any means what so ever and have no understanding how its done but continue to say it's not possible with out high lvl magic items. I dont need +1, +2, or +3 plate armor to boost AC to exceed 28.
Ok man again in 5e adventure league, the most by the rules version of the game that exists a player can have up to 3 magic items between lvl 1 to lvl 4 at lvl 5 you get a free magic item in the form of a +1 weapon or shield on top of a magic ring if you have the faction agent background.
5e is certainly not designed around low magic counts as every module shows differently. Third 750 is easily in gold by lvl 5. Season 9 of AL even hands out 2 +1 weapons at lvl 3 if you find them in Decent into Avernus.
Only in AL season 8 did they severely hamper gold and magic items. But this was done essentially not allowing you to find gold at all but instead recieved it from leveling up.
Again with 2 Magic items and a feat I can have a character 28 AC at lvl 5 or if you dismiss plate it's still a 26. A Paladin built correctly can have an AC as high as 39. so no 28 is not high.
Furthermore, in Decent into Avernus my character accumulated 1500 gold before going into Avernus in 7 person party.
it is 1 magic item at levels 1-4, 3 magic items at 5-10, 6 at 11-16 and 10 at 17-20
Each magic item has a rarity: common, uncommon, rare, very rare, or legendary. Common magic items, such as a potion of healing, are the most plentiful. Some legendary items, such as the apparatus of Kwalish, are unique. The game assumes that the secrets of creating the most powerful items arose centuries ago and were then gradually lost as a result of wars, cataclysms, and mishaps. Even uncommon items can’t be easily created. Thus, many magic items are well-preserved antiquities.
Rarity provides a rough measure of an item’s power relative to other magic items. Each rarity corresponds to character level, as shown in the Magic Item Rarity table. A character doesn’t typically find a rare magic item, for example, until around 5th level. That said, rarity shouldn’t get in the way of your campaign’s story. If you want a ring of invisibility to fall into the hands of a 1st-level character, so be it. No doubt a great story will arise from that event.
If your campaign allows for trade in magic items, rarity can also help you set prices for them. As the DM, you determine the value of an individual magic item based on its rarity. Suggested values are provided in the Magic Item Rarity table. The value of a consumable item, such as a potion or scroll, is typically half the value of a permanent item of the same rarity.
Magic Item Rarity
Rarity
Character Level
Value
Common
1st or higher
50–100 gp
Uncommon
1st or higher
101–500 gp
Rare
5th or higher
501–5,000 gp
Very rare
11th or higher
5,001–50,000 gp
Legendary
17th or higher
50,001+ gp
Hey, they even say it themselvers that creating magical items is a hard thing to do, thus if you are the one who gives out magical items here there and over there. i think you are the one who preffer to have high magic settings, i don't and i follow the rules of 5e which is by the book... a rare magic item setting. unlike 3e where you could buy yourself to stardom by just spending most of your cash in and selling other magic items. in 5e magic items have that rarity where when you get one, you keep it ! much like there was in 1e and 2e where magical items were very very rare. and i preffer that my game is based on skill not based on gears.
also, you have to know that jeremy crawford himself said that when they created 5e, they had no magical gear in mind. meaning their caps are designed without magical gear in mind. but i guess even your tarrasque must have magical gears then. because, of course, your players will breeze through your encounters if you give them that many magical items and you do not for your monsters. as, again... the monter manual doesn't account for magical gear at all.
but again, it is your choice, if you preffer high magical item settings then be my guess. i hated 3e for it, having to always consider the thousands of gold my players were making off looting every mobs with magical gears. it made economy such a shitty thing. i preffer the more traditionnal approach of 5e. which is... magic gears should and are a rarity that should be cherished ! this also gives more challenges to the players as they are more skill based games then magical gear ripping through monsters.
also... the random treasure tables are made to give you a rare and very rare item about every 100 common and uncommon items... so yeah, even the random treasure table provides an easy to see the rarity of the magical gears.
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I dislike the religious feel of the Paladin too. But I found a way around it. After all, the oath as written can be interpreted. In my head (and our campaign) we have a bit of a leeway around it.
I built a Conquest Paladin that is really more of a moral guide for campaigning soldiers than a religious zealot. She stems from an atheist empire, which seeks to eradicate religion actually, and specifically dragons. So she works as a spiritual and moral guide to the agent agitateur sent in advance of the main troops, a bit like a commissar in the USSR. In battle she sings litanies of hate to inspire her allies and terrify her ennemies.
To me that did the work around the oh so good and rigid paladins. As she works as part of infiltrating teams she has to be laid back, perniciously diffusing the empire's doctrine. So sneaky sneaky as a charisma based char skilled in deception, intimidation, forgery... until it gets stabby stabby and she smites the hell out of the hated believers that refuse to bow to the wisdom of the empire.
that's exactly it, paladins in 5e aren't bound to religion anymore. their oaths can come from any sources and that is what gives them strength. as long as paladins have their oaths they don't need a religion.
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Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
just sayinbg, those who think 26 AC is nothing... consider that a tarrasque maximum AC, which is a CR 30 creature and should be a challenge even for those level 20 folks, is 25 ! literally the hard cap for normal AC without magical items is 25. the same way the hard cap for those to hit without magical gear is +17. 5e is literally designed for you to have maximum gained 50,000 gold from level 1 to level 20. 5e is "not" a high magic setting. if your DM literally gave you 26ac because of magical items at level 7. he literally decided to make you play in a high magic setting, which again, 5e is not.
all i was saying. by the book, you shouldn'T be able to afford a full plate for your warrior until about level 7, which you are... but thats a lucky shot still. even if you did find a full plate on a creature, it is written in the dungeon masters guide... or the player handbook, not sure anymore. but to readjust that full plate to fit your own, it either needs to be magical, or needs to be refitted to you, which still cost you half the mats, which is still 750gp.
you guys can play whatever game you want, having fun is mandatory in d&d. so i'm not saying you shouldn't play or whatever. all i am saying is that you are lucky to have a DM who doesn't play by 5e rules. because me, i started giving away hoards after hoards to my players, because by 5e rulings, they still have next to no magical gears. and they are level 8 and about to be level 9.
also for those who are interested to know... the magical random table are designed to give you 1 rare items every 100 items. 5e is literally designed to be a very low magic item settings where magical gears are suposed to be very rare and keepable. myself comes from a high magical gear setting. and i even created interplanar sellers for my players to buy magical gears from. but recently i enjoyed a normal game of dungeon and dragons without magical gears. it kinda brought back to a more realistick gaming where my monsters can still do things to my players without them having upper hands because of magical gears.
Here's where you're absolutely wrong again.
The "hard cap" with out magical items for a Paladin at level 5 is 26 with Plate armor if built properly and 29 at level 20.
Again you are repeatedly showing you dont know how to max out AC. Please stop trying to express you know what your talking about when you dont.
Furthermore the currency you gain and how much you gain is directly based on the module you're playing, the items you find and decide to sell and if the Party assists in helping procure said items. In Decent to Avernus for doing the lvl 1-3 quest you amass 200 gold per a player upon completion, if you find all the spell books theres 4 of them but 3 of them are valued at 1500 gold combined when sold, and this doesnt even include the gold in the chest you find. "By the book" like you keep saying is literally based off the module you are playing through and what its loot is. The DMG does not determine loot in a preset campaign module. Something you dont seem to understand. After tallying all I mentioned up thats a minimum of 2,700 gold for a 6 player party by lvl 3. Now please continue to say the book doesnt allow a party to get over 1500 gold before lvl 7 by the book. This also doesnt factor in finding Plate Armor either which you find in the same dungeon at lvl 2. So again say where in the book you're not going to get Plate until lvl 7. Which, by the way even if it has to be fitted to you that's alot more attainable especially by lvl 5 by the individual not even mentioning the Party.
Furthermore paying to fit armor to oneself even plate armor is not a standard rule in 5e. It's a variant rule however and if used applies to all armor not just plate and is between 10-40 % of the overal cost of the armor. Which means fitting plate armor to oneself costs as little as 150 or at most 600. Costing 750 was a 3.5e rule not 5e.
Again 5e is not designed for low magic items. The DMG does not restrict the amount of magic items found. It does restrict high end magical items which is not the same. But again you have repeatedly conflated the two to mean the same thing.
Which mind you, which you'll ignore because it doesnt fit your narrative, AL is more in line with "the book" than any other version of D&D being played is as its directly read from the book.
But hey continue making fictious remarks about low amount of magic items. And you can only get a 28 AC with high end magic items. I've repeatedly stated how and with which low end uncommon magic items ( the most common magic items), feats that you could take, with defensive fighting style, and shield of Faith how your AC can easily be 28 at Lvl 5. Though you think it's impossible because you keep saying "the book" when you have no idea what "the books" really allow.
Hi there, my first post but I'd like to add/emphasize couple of things in the discussion.
1. The notion that 5 ed is "low magic" is based on few misconsctructed words in the DMG. Even the table says that you can get common/uncommon items quite early (level 1) and the official published Adventures clearly support that. Magic items are not part of the starting equipment just like Legendary items are not suggested in the "Starting at Higher level" table in DMG because the game is designed in such way that players find the best loot while playing and not as part of their backstory.
That's why it's not suggested to start a 17th level Paladin with Holy Avenger already in their possession but it's perfectly fine to find one in a dragon's lair during play.
2. Setting is not the same as system.
DND 5 Ed is a system. Forgotten Realms is a setting. DND 5 ED as a generic set of rules is neither high nor low magic. It even has a table for high magic settings and low magic settings as part of the "Starting at higher level" section. Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting. Everyone who knows anything about Faerun knows this. The published adventures in Forgotten Realms support that.
General lower magic level in comparison to 3.5 is based on few things: 1) attunement system 2) maximum enchantment (+3 vs. +5) and generally lower "oompf" 3) hard cap on ability scores (though somewhat moveable by specific magic items and class abilities). That in turn is balanced by lower stats and DC of various challenges and lower relative power of monsters. A +3 sword is super powerful because monsters no longer have 30+ AC.
So, again - DND 5 Ed may seem as low magic in comparison to 3.5 but it's only so if you compare what the players are capable of, disregarding the challenge deflation. Sure, you no longer have 16 attacks per round. But also - monsters have generally lower HP, lower AC, lower damage and lower to hit bonus. It evens out.
3. I keep seeing Tarrasque and it's AC mentioned here as comparison. This is not how it works. First of all, it's a CR 30 monster. The notion that players have to fight it without magic items is questionable. Furthermore, it's AC isn't what makes it a CR30 monster.
The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.
- Rodney Thompson, 2012
Those encounters are not balanced around the fact that you can't hit it. It's actually the other way around. Tarrasque's AC is the least important thing here and definitely not it's defining feature. The encounter's difficulty is based on it's massive HP, resistances, potential DPR and legendary actions.
Look at Ancient Gold Dragon. CR 24 and AC "only" 22. It's not about not being able to hit them. It's about winning a DPR race against their HP, resistance and legendary actions (and lair actions, why not).
4. That being said, AC 28 is quite OP but like most OP things in the game, it's a product of a very specific character build. Is it annoying to not be able to hit a player? Sure is. But AC isn't the only thing that DM can target. If a player build their character around AC, sure let them have it. After all, it's hardly fun to suddenly stop being attacked when you are really good at something but it's quite easy to make them remember that they are not invulnerable.
Also, DM rolls against players more often and crits exist so yeah, there is that.
5. As a side note: personally I think that a player with optimized DPR build poses bigger threat than a player with high AC. Consider a glaive wielding Paladin of Vengeance with Vow of Emnity, Bless, Haste (from the wizard) and great weapon fighting unleashing his divine smites against your boss.
Is high AC more inconvenient for a DM than a character who can obliterate a boss in 1-2 rounds of combat? I did a few simulations and an unleashed 11th level Paladin focused on DPR can kill a CR 13 monste solo and a 20th level Paladin fully buffed can take about 1/3 of Tarrasque's HP in one round while flying and quite straightforward, without any extra cheese. And that probably doesn't even come close to what other people can do with some multiclass shenanigas.
Such is the nature of optimized builds. It really doesn't matter if this is AC or DPR.
here is my adventure league palasin, https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/tjunkie/characters/6239959 he can hit hard when he needs to, can boost his AC over 30 if he needs to, has nice save numbers and can now do ranged attacks with his multiclass and is one level away from dark vision
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Ok man again in 5e adventure league, the most by the rules version of the game that exists a player can have up to 3 magic items between lvl 1 to lvl 4 at lvl 5 you get a free magic item in the form of a +1 weapon or shield on top of a magic ring if you have the faction agent background.
5e is certainly not designed around low magic counts as every module shows differently. Third 750 is easily in gold by lvl 5. Season 9 of AL even hands out 2 +1 weapons at lvl 3 if you find them in Decent into Avernus.
Only in AL season 8 did they severely hamper gold and magic items. But this was done essentially not allowing you to find gold at all but instead recieved it from leveling up.
Again with 2 Magic items and a feat I can have a character 28 AC at lvl 5 or if you dismiss plate it's still a 26. A Paladin built correctly can have an AC as high as 39. so no 28 is not high.
Furthermore, in Decent into Avernus my character accumulated 1500 gold before going into Avernus in 7 person party.
I like Paladins as a concept, but I think the main reason I stay away from them is that I just sort of dislike their flavor? The smite mechanic is unique and makes them great damage dealers, but as was mentioned earlier, many people choose classes based on how they fit thematically, and not because of mechanics. So, what makes a paladin a paladin? When I picture a paladin, I think of a plate-armor clad warrior, with typically divine powers. I often think of them as rigid if not outright dogmatic; by their very nature they are bound by an ideal, something that has become their life's work. You could make a paladin who isn't uptight, or who isn't a law abiding citizen, but I think that making a paladin that is too laid back about their oath is essentially disregarding a large part of what makes a paladin interesting... and if I just wanted to be a paladin without the oaths, I would just be a fighter, a class that I personally feel grants me more freedom in terms of my backstory.
**EDIT**
I do actually like the Oath of the Ancients as an idea, its a cool way to play a druid-knight or green knight without needing to play ranger or dipping into druid (Though I do heavily prefer ranger to paladin in terms of aesthetic).
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
and adventurers league can do whatever they want, i don't care... by the book, in your whole career you are supposed to find magic items, at most 1 legendary. 3 very rare, and 5 rare. then the rest is all uncommon or common items... and thats exactly what the DMG treasure hoards does. with legendary items not really availlable until you are level 10+. but hey, whatever man, continu to think that giving players loot out of nowhere is the right way to go. and continu to think that what you just described me is awesome uber loot. i remember 3e pretty darn well... and at level 5 you had like 3 times that much items. now that was high magic settings.
also, jeremy crawford himself said you are not supposed to find big stuff until way later int he game. and whle +1 weapons to you seems like nothing... in a game where the maximum is +3... it is a lot at low levels. again... 5e is not designed with magic items in mind. they haven't calculated any magic items into their hard cap. the same is true for spells. sure with spells i can go all the way up to 30 AC. that doesn't mean they have calculated that. the real thing is, they didn't. the bounded accuracy is calculated without any magic items and without any spells. that was also said in numerous places by the design team themselves.
that said, play the way you want to. if you wanna give your paladins full plates at level 1 go for it. if you wanna give them a full plate +1 by level 3. be my guess. i don't care !
i'm just saying... a paladin shouldn't have 27 AC by level 5.
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I dislike the religious feel of the Paladin too. But I found a way around it. After all, the oath as written can be interpreted. In my head (and our campaign) we have a bit of a leeway around it.
I built a Conquest Paladin that is really more of a moral guide for campaigning soldiers than a religious zealot. She stems from an atheist empire, which seeks to eradicate religion actually, and specifically dragons. So she works as a spiritual and moral guide to the agent agitateur sent in advance of the main troops, a bit like a commissar in the USSR. In battle she sings litanies of hate to inspire her allies and terrify her ennemies.
To me that did the work around the oh so good and rigid paladins. As she works as part of infiltrating teams she has to be laid back, perniciously diffusing the empire's doctrine. So sneaky sneaky as a charisma based char skilled in deception, intimidation, forgery... until it gets stabby stabby and she smites the hell out of the hated believers that refuse to bow to the wisdom of the empire.
While I do understand that there is a long-standing picture of what a paladin is (rigid, stuffy, platemailed, holy warrior), I find myself looking around media franchises and seeing alternative ideas for paladins everywhere. For example:
The Jedi of Star Wars. The Jedi code is a suitable Oath as is and it provides a slightly different take. Balance, self-control, focus (and self-denial?) are the center rather than honor and honesty and glory. The powers don't exactly match up but it's a different take on how the paladin acts. Different struggles can challenge the Jedi paladin than the "classic" paladin (temptation of hatred, anger, and forbidden senators rather than traditional evil). Plus radiant damage means glowing sword. Oath of Devotion or Oath of Ancients both might work?
The Belmont family from Castlevania. If you dive into the lore and related media, the Belmonts are not shining paragons of society but rather hermits, vagabonds, scoundrels, and the like and they are often shunned from society until they are needed every so many years when Dracula comes back. But they are skilled monster/vampire hunters who use holy weapons and that seems like a paladin to me. Build using high dexterity, light armor, and a whip/rapier...and flavor as a prideful, confident, abrasive jerk who gets the job done. Oath of Devotion works.
Frog from Chrono Trigger. While the paladin class doesn't give you water magic, Frog is oathsworn to the queen and the kingdom to slay the evil wizard and is the chosen wielder of a sacred blade. Other than the "olde english" speech pattern, he doesn't really embody the negative parts of the classic paladin. Maybe his mentor was a more traditional paladin but Frog is his own evolution of the class. Oath of Vengeance makes sense as does Oath of Ancients to give you that nature feel. Using a race like Triton could give you water magic and a non-human form.
Bowen from Dragonheart. He's a swordsman and a knight sworn to the Old Code. This Code is very much similar to existing Oaths but the character is not all that similar to existing paladin stereotypes. Granted, at the middle of the movie he's a bit of a fallen knight and needs a reminder about his Code from a dragon and a visit to King Arthur's grave, but it's an example that is enough degrees removed from your paladin stereotype to be fresh and new. Personally I like Oath of Ancients because it's the Old Code and it's connected to dragons but Devotion works too.
That's just a few that crossed my mind. Plenty more out there to inspire you.
One other source of inspiration for paladins that I want to explore more which turns back into the divine/religion interpretation of the class is paladins of other D&D deities. Sure, the deities of honor and glory and warfare and good and law have their paladins...but what about the deities of luck or agriculture or knowledge or music?
One concept I have been sitting on for a while is a paladin of the god of knowledge (for whatever setting is to be used). There might only be one or two (a master and an apprentice). He mostly spends his time at the main temple/grand library, protecting the building. There isn't much need for protecting the building as the temple of knowledge is a well-respected neutral ground so much of his duties are more symbolic protection: making patrols, maintaining his weapons and armor, being a knight in shining armor. Maybe he protects the building from a few minor threats like thieves and rebellious youths. But he also has a solid set of plans for if there ever was a real threat: what entrances and exits are present, how to use the guards, how to arm the librarians, which corridors to barricade, where to make a stand, etc...all based on studies of battles and sieges from texts in the library. Occasionally, he'll escort a courier carrying a rare book or act as a defensive consult for smaller temples/libraries (who mostly get by with the local cleric and hired guards). As an NPC I see him as ridiculously high level, like in the high teen levels. He doesn't fight much but when he does, he is an amazing swordsman with a good array of magic. As a PC, he'd obviously be the level of the party and with a side mission to find books or something (and probably be the apprentice paladin).
My point, rambling as it might be, is that looking at a different deity or culture or race and extrapolating from there could give you a different take on a paladin.
For my Tiefling vengeance paladin, I went for a kind of hybrid between Solomon Kane and Punisher with Hellboy flavouring. He has little patience or mercy, slays evil wherever he finds it and his definition of 'evil' is a lot broader than most people's. One of his strongest viewpoints is that those who stand idle in the face of evil are no better those committing the act. This sometimes dips into not helping those who refuse to help themselves.
His oath is more of a promise to his adoptive father that he wouldn't become the monster everyone fears he is. So I have essentially flipped the oath and the personality, he himself is ruthless and unforgiving but he has made a promise to be a good man. Gives a good internal struggle. I'm half tempted to dip into barbarian to really show his temper.
As for the religious part, he follows Tritherion- god of liberty and retribution but again, that's more in honour of his adopted father as that is who he worshipped. His holy icon is actually one of his horns that snapped off and he has since carved symbols into. He holds it as more of a reminder of the path he is on and it gives him reassurance. The symbolism of something demonic, severed from it's origins but becoming an instrument of good and justice. I've found that his role in the group is actually the leader/decision maker. Rather than playing him as a zealot, he's just motivated, not easily distracted. He's not one to waste time and will cut to the heart of issues. so he's great at focusing the team. And he's the only one of the group who follows a god, but he's not in your face about it, it's more he's more one for quiet moments of reflection, telling himself 'you can do this'.
He's turned out to be a more complex character that I originally thought he'd be.
In combat he's definitely the one that draws the attacks and ties up the bigger threats, giving the team time to position themselves, clear out the smaller enemies, chip away the boss's hp etc.
I thoroughly enjoy playing him, currently at level 7.
it is 1 magic item at levels 1-4, 3 magic items at 5-10, 6 at 11-16 and 10 at 17-20
That doesnt say magic items are a rarity by any means in fact it completely contradicts magic items are a rarity.
You really dont have a creative min then when it comes to boosting AC if you think 27 isnt attainable at lvl 5. Just with Armor alone you can have a 25 AC easily at lvl 5 with plate and two uncommon magic items (+1 shield, ring of protection) and shield of Faith. Take Human Variet and defensive duelist and use a rapier and now you have an AC of 28 using your reaction or take another feat to gain access to shield and have an AC of 30.
I mean seriously you really show you have no understanding of how to boost AC by any means what so ever and have no understanding how its done but continue to say it's not possible with out high lvl magic items. I dont need +1, +2, or +3 plate armor to boost AC to exceed 28.
Thanks for the correction
Hey, they even say it themselvers that creating magical items is a hard thing to do, thus if you are the one who gives out magical items here there and over there. i think you are the one who preffer to have high magic settings, i don't and i follow the rules of 5e which is by the book... a rare magic item setting. unlike 3e where you could buy yourself to stardom by just spending most of your cash in and selling other magic items. in 5e magic items have that rarity where when you get one, you keep it ! much like there was in 1e and 2e where magical items were very very rare. and i preffer that my game is based on skill not based on gears.
also, you have to know that jeremy crawford himself said that when they created 5e, they had no magical gear in mind. meaning their caps are designed without magical gear in mind.
but i guess even your tarrasque must have magical gears then. because, of course, your players will breeze through your encounters if you give them that many magical items and you do not for your monsters. as, again... the monter manual doesn't account for magical gear at all.
but again, it is your choice, if you preffer high magical item settings then be my guess. i hated 3e for it, having to always consider the thousands of gold my players were making off looting every mobs with magical gears. it made economy such a shitty thing. i preffer the more traditionnal approach of 5e. which is... magic gears should and are a rarity that should be cherished ! this also gives more challenges to the players as they are more skill based games then magical gear ripping through monsters.
also...
the random treasure tables are made to give you a rare and very rare item about every 100 common and uncommon items... so yeah, even the random treasure table provides an easy to see the rarity of the magical gears.
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that's exactly it, paladins in 5e aren't bound to religion anymore. their oaths can come from any sources and that is what gives them strength. as long as paladins have their oaths they don't need a religion.
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Here's where you're absolutely wrong again.
The "hard cap" with out magical items for a Paladin at level 5 is 26 with Plate armor if built properly and 29 at level 20.
Again you are repeatedly showing you dont know how to max out AC. Please stop trying to express you know what your talking about when you dont.
Furthermore the currency you gain and how much you gain is directly based on the module you're playing, the items you find and decide to sell and if the Party assists in helping procure said items. In Decent to Avernus for doing the lvl 1-3 quest you amass 200 gold per a player upon completion, if you find all the spell books theres 4 of them but 3 of them are valued at 1500 gold combined when sold, and this doesnt even include the gold in the chest you find. "By the book" like you keep saying is literally based off the module you are playing through and what its loot is. The DMG does not determine loot in a preset campaign module. Something you dont seem to understand. After tallying all I mentioned up thats a minimum of 2,700 gold for a 6 player party by lvl 3. Now please continue to say the book doesnt allow a party to get over 1500 gold before lvl 7 by the book. This also doesnt factor in finding Plate Armor either which you find in the same dungeon at lvl 2. So again say where in the book you're not going to get Plate until lvl 7. Which, by the way even if it has to be fitted to you that's alot more attainable especially by lvl 5 by the individual not even mentioning the Party.
Furthermore paying to fit armor to oneself even plate armor is not a standard rule in 5e. It's a variant rule however and if used applies to all armor not just plate and is between 10-40 % of the overal cost of the armor. Which means fitting plate armor to oneself costs as little as 150 or at most 600. Costing 750 was a 3.5e rule not 5e.
Again 5e is not designed for low magic items. The DMG does not restrict the amount of magic items found. It does restrict high end magical items which is not the same. But again you have repeatedly conflated the two to mean the same thing.
Which mind you, which you'll ignore because it doesnt fit your narrative, AL is more in line with "the book" than any other version of D&D being played is as its directly read from the book.
But hey continue making fictious remarks about low amount of magic items. And you can only get a 28 AC with high end magic items. I've repeatedly stated how and with which low end uncommon magic items ( the most common magic items), feats that you could take, with defensive fighting style, and shield of Faith how your AC can easily be 28 at Lvl 5. Though you think it's impossible because you keep saying "the book" when you have no idea what "the books" really allow.
Hi there, my first post but I'd like to add/emphasize couple of things in the discussion.
1. The notion that 5 ed is "low magic" is based on few misconsctructed words in the DMG. Even the table says that you can get common/uncommon items quite early (level 1) and the official published Adventures clearly support that. Magic items are not part of the starting equipment just like Legendary items are not suggested in the "Starting at Higher level" table in DMG because the game is designed in such way that players find the best loot while playing and not as part of their backstory.
That's why it's not suggested to start a 17th level Paladin with Holy Avenger already in their possession but it's perfectly fine to find one in a dragon's lair during play.
2. Setting is not the same as system.
DND 5 Ed is a system. Forgotten Realms is a setting. DND 5 ED as a generic set of rules is neither high nor low magic. It even has a table for high magic settings and low magic settings as part of the "Starting at higher level" section. Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting. Everyone who knows anything about Faerun knows this. The published adventures in Forgotten Realms support that.
General lower magic level in comparison to 3.5 is based on few things: 1) attunement system 2) maximum enchantment (+3 vs. +5) and generally lower "oompf" 3) hard cap on ability scores (though somewhat moveable by specific magic items and class abilities). That in turn is balanced by lower stats and DC of various challenges and lower relative power of monsters. A +3 sword is super powerful because monsters no longer have 30+ AC.
So, again - DND 5 Ed may seem as low magic in comparison to 3.5 but it's only so if you compare what the players are capable of, disregarding the challenge deflation. Sure, you no longer have 16 attacks per round. But also - monsters have generally lower HP, lower AC, lower damage and lower to hit bonus. It evens out.
3. I keep seeing Tarrasque and it's AC mentioned here as comparison. This is not how it works. First of all, it's a CR 30 monster. The notion that players have to fight it without magic items is questionable. Furthermore, it's AC isn't what makes it a CR30 monster.
Those encounters are not balanced around the fact that you can't hit it. It's actually the other way around. Tarrasque's AC is the least important thing here and definitely not it's defining feature. The encounter's difficulty is based on it's massive HP, resistances, potential DPR and legendary actions.
Look at Ancient Gold Dragon. CR 24 and AC "only" 22. It's not about not being able to hit them. It's about winning a DPR race against their HP, resistance and legendary actions (and lair actions, why not).
4. That being said, AC 28 is quite OP but like most OP things in the game, it's a product of a very specific character build. Is it annoying to not be able to hit a player? Sure is. But AC isn't the only thing that DM can target. If a player build their character around AC, sure let them have it. After all, it's hardly fun to suddenly stop being attacked when you are really good at something but it's quite easy to make them remember that they are not invulnerable.
Also, DM rolls against players more often and crits exist so yeah, there is that.
5. As a side note: personally I think that a player with optimized DPR build poses bigger threat than a player with high AC. Consider a glaive wielding Paladin of Vengeance with Vow of Emnity, Bless, Haste (from the wizard) and great weapon fighting unleashing his divine smites against your boss.
Is high AC more inconvenient for a DM than a character who can obliterate a boss in 1-2 rounds of combat? I did a few simulations and an unleashed 11th level Paladin focused on DPR can kill a CR 13 monste solo and a 20th level Paladin fully buffed can take about 1/3 of Tarrasque's HP in one round while flying and quite straightforward, without any extra cheese. And that probably doesn't even come close to what other people can do with some multiclass shenanigas.
Such is the nature of optimized builds. It really doesn't matter if this is AC or DPR.
here is my adventure league palasin, https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/tjunkie/characters/6239959 he can hit hard when he needs to, can boost his AC over 30 if he needs to, has nice save numbers and can now do ranged attacks with his multiclass and is one level away from dark vision