I completely disagree. I am just as likely to play a paladin now as I was before, and perhaps more likely to play a paladin than I was before. The class is far from ruined.
I'll agree that Paladin isn't completely ruined, Divine Smite is, and it is. It's an action economy issue, Rogues do not use a BA to sneak attack, battlemaster fighters do not use a BA to use a manoeuvrers. The only comparison to something where BA is consumed are things like Hunter's Mark and Hex, but these do not use a spell slot per use, they get significantly more use from a single cast.
But further too this, the Divine Smite change ignores the effects of other changes like feats, picking up Warcaster or Resilient (constitution) at level 4 are now significantly easier options too take which makes concentration spells like Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud much easier too use, which are likely too do more damage and only use a single bonus action and single spell slot.
Also there is other smite spells, these have utility and it's usually utility that BA can be considered reasonable for, which is just not the case for Divine Smite. The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites. Overall we will need to see where other smites end out in the PHB but in UA6, they were definitely significantly better, Shining Smite for example almost near guarantees advantage in UA6 and didn't even have a save against the effect, albeit using concentration.
Smites needed limiting too once per turn, but BA for Divine Smite was not the way to go about it, now from what I am seeing, they are likely removing things like BA from some Channel Divinity options for 2024, which partially fixes the issue if true, but not really, Divine Smite could have remained an outlier in not using BA but simply stopped you being able to cast a spell on the same turn and limited too once per turn itself. This would leave Divine Smite usable with PAM, with GWM and a few other options for using BA, instead we are seeing a reduction in Paladin's action economy and that is a nerf.
"The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites."
I believe Divine Smite will no longer crit. I don't have the PHB, but the wording of the spell I'm reading is:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike..." (emphasis mine)
Jeremy Crawford has previously stated that effects that occur after the attack, do not have their dice doubled. Psi Warrior Psionic Strike, for instance does not double and has similar wording.
That would make it even worse and basically entirely forgettable, but I do not believe that is the way it works as Divine Smite explicitly says it's damage is added to the attack, not after the attack, such as the case of Psionic Strike.
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack.
At least going by how it is written in UA6.
"The damage of the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike occurs after the attack that delivers it. That damage is therefore not rolled twice on a crit." - Jeremy Crawford
Divine Smite
level 1 - evocation
Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is a Fiend or an Undead. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
I completely disagree. I am just as likely to play a paladin now as I was before, and perhaps more likely to play a paladin than I was before. The class is far from ruined.
I'll agree that Paladin isn't completely ruined, Divine Smite is, and it is. It's an action economy issue, Rogues do not use a BA to sneak attack, battlemaster fighters do not use a BA to use a manoeuvrers. The only comparison to something where BA is consumed are things like Hunter's Mark and Hex, but these do not use a spell slot per use, they get significantly more use from a single cast.
But further too this, the Divine Smite change ignores the effects of other changes like feats, picking up Warcaster or Resilient (constitution) at level 4 are now significantly easier options too take which makes concentration spells like Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud much easier too use, which are likely too do more damage and only use a single bonus action and single spell slot.
Also there is other smite spells, these have utility and it's usually utility that BA can be considered reasonable for, which is just not the case for Divine Smite. The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites. Overall we will need to see where other smites end out in the PHB but in UA6, they were definitely significantly better, Shining Smite for example almost near guarantees advantage in UA6 and didn't even have a save against the effect, albeit using concentration.
Smites needed limiting too once per turn, but BA for Divine Smite was not the way to go about it, now from what I am seeing, they are likely removing things like BA from some Channel Divinity options for 2024, which partially fixes the issue if true, but not really, Divine Smite could have remained an outlier in not using BA but simply stopped you being able to cast a spell on the same turn and limited too once per turn itself. This would leave Divine Smite usable with PAM, with GWM and a few other options for using BA, instead we are seeing a reduction in Paladin's action economy and that is a nerf.
"The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites."
I believe Divine Smite will no longer crit. I don't have the PHB, but the wording of the spell I'm reading is:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike..." (emphasis mine)
Jeremy Crawford has previously stated that effects that occur after the attack, do not have their dice doubled. Psi Warrior Psionic Strike, for instance does not double and has similar wording.
That would make it even worse and basically entirely forgettable, but I do not believe that is the way it works as Divine Smite explicitly says it's damage is added to the attack, not after the attack, such as the case of Psionic Strike.
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack.
At least going by how it is written in UA6.
"The damage of the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike occurs after the attack that delivers it. That damage is therefore not rolled twice on a crit." - Jeremy Crawford
Divine Smite
level 1 - evocation
Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is a Fiend or an Undead. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
i wrote about that already in another thread ... since divine smite is a spell without an attack roll, it will not be able to crit, which makes it even more worthless .... around lvl 11 ( radiant strikes lvl ) you will need to use at least a lvl 3 / 4 spell slot to not loose dmg when smithing vs e.g. a PAM attack ..... if you want to even use divine smite you are forced into twf and you don't have any options ... + don't even try to keep up with a wizard or swords bard
Lol. It just keeps getting better and better. Like I said, Divine Smite will be the same as it is pre One-nerf at my table. Nothing says I have to use this trash a** change.
I completely disagree. I am just as likely to play a paladin now as I was before, and perhaps more likely to play a paladin than I was before. The class is far from ruined.
I'll agree that Paladin isn't completely ruined, Divine Smite is, and it is. It's an action economy issue, Rogues do not use a BA to sneak attack, battlemaster fighters do not use a BA to use a manoeuvrers. The only comparison to something where BA is consumed are things like Hunter's Mark and Hex, but these do not use a spell slot per use, they get significantly more use from a single cast.
But further too this, the Divine Smite change ignores the effects of other changes like feats, picking up Warcaster or Resilient (constitution) at level 4 are now significantly easier options too take which makes concentration spells like Divine Favor or Spirit Shroud much easier too use, which are likely too do more damage and only use a single bonus action and single spell slot.
Also there is other smite spells, these have utility and it's usually utility that BA can be considered reasonable for, which is just not the case for Divine Smite. The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites. Overall we will need to see where other smites end out in the PHB but in UA6, they were definitely significantly better, Shining Smite for example almost near guarantees advantage in UA6 and didn't even have a save against the effect, albeit using concentration.
Smites needed limiting too once per turn, but BA for Divine Smite was not the way to go about it, now from what I am seeing, they are likely removing things like BA from some Channel Divinity options for 2024, which partially fixes the issue if true, but not really, Divine Smite could have remained an outlier in not using BA but simply stopped you being able to cast a spell on the same turn and limited too once per turn itself. This would leave Divine Smite usable with PAM, with GWM and a few other options for using BA, instead we are seeing a reduction in Paladin's action economy and that is a nerf.
"The only real use for divine Smite now is maximizing damage on a critical hit, or you're fighting an undead or fiend for the extra 1d8, outside of that Divine Smite is now very subpar against other smites."
I believe Divine Smite will no longer crit. I don't have the PHB, but the wording of the spell I'm reading is:
"Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike..." (emphasis mine)
Jeremy Crawford has previously stated that effects that occur after the attack, do not have their dice doubled. Psi Warrior Psionic Strike, for instance does not double and has similar wording.
That would make it even worse and basically entirely forgettable, but I do not believe that is the way it works as Divine Smite explicitly says it's damage is added to the attack, not after the attack, such as the case of Psionic Strike.
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack.
At least going by how it is written in UA6.
"The damage of the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike occurs after the attack that delivers it. That damage is therefore not rolled twice on a crit." - Jeremy Crawford
Divine Smite
level 1 - evocation
Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power. The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is a Fiend or an Undead. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
i wrote about that already in another thread ... since divine smite is a spell without an attack roll, it will not be able to crit, which makes it even more worthless .... around lvl 11 ( radiant strikes lvl ) you will need to use at least a lvl 3 / 4 spell slot to not loose dmg when smithing vs e.g. a PAM attack ..... if you want to even use divine smite you are forced into twf and you don't have any options ... + don't even try to keep up with a wizard or swords bard
i think im a little confused the wording says after you hit you then add the damage so it would be able to double unlike the psi warrior where it says after you hit and deal damage which you cant double on (i think that is really dumb tho so i allow it to crit at my table)
this is from the 2014 version not sure if it was changed in 2024 ^^
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal.
Since Divine smite is now a spell and no longer part of the attack it counts as add any relevant modifiers ( no sage advices yet ^^ ) but probaly will come down to DM decision
"The damage of the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike occurs after the attack that delivers it. That damage is therefore not rolled twice on a crit." - Jeremy Crawford
Divine Smite
level 1 - evocation
Casting Time: Bonus Action, which you take immediately after hitting a target with a melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
As you hit the target, your strike glows with divine power.The target takes an extra 2d8 Radiant damage from the attack. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is a Fiend or an Undead. Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
Let me embolden and underline the most important part that you're still missing. Divine Smite is not actually doing damage itself, it is augmenting the damage of the attack, Psionic Strike does not add damage to the attack, Psionic Strike does additional damage itself, after an attack.
So unless they changed critical hits in 2024 (plausible but changes in UA were immediately back peddled due to unpopularity), the following applies (from 2014):
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue’s Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well
In the case of Divine Smite, the attack DOES involve other damage dice, these damage die are explicitly stated to be as part of the attack.
in the case of Psionic Strike, the attack DOES NOT involve other damage dice. these damage die are implicitly stated to be after the attack.
^^ I read it the same way you do, and DS will still crit.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Currently I see no reason to buy the new one dnd books. Most of the changes are nerfs not upgrades, why would I pay to feel weaker in my classes? But I am sure that was the point for things like Wizard, Druid, Paladin. All three seem worse not better.
All three seem better to me. Wizard, simply got no changes. they are more or less the same. Druid is way better and now I'd totally play one, when it was mostly a no-go before. Paladin also seems more interesting before. I played one a little, but wasn't interested by it. Now, I am interested in it getting magic at level 1, no conc divine favor, and weapon masteries looks really fun.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Currently I see no reason to buy the new one dnd books. Most of the changes are nerfs not upgrades, why would I pay to feel weaker in my classes? But I am sure that was the point for things like Wizard, Druid, Paladin. All three seem worse not better.
fully agree on the paladin, but not on Wizard and Druid they got a titanic buff and can now hit with divine smite w/o needing to use a spell slot with every hit ..... starting from 4th spell lvl with +2d8 and increasing with +2d8 for each spell slot above 4th
I've always argued that they should have made the extra damage ability of any class, a bonus action to keep them from being stacked. Right now it is too eay to stack:
Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Hex, Paladin Smite, Channel Divinity, and Sneak Attack all in the same hit. And as someone who had 3 paladins in a group of 6 in my last 5 yr campaign - allowing Paladins to smite on every attack was OP as heck.
Whether its a bonus action (or call it what you will), I would have designed it so that the extra damage from classes don't stack and can only be used once per turn (that's once on your turn, and once as a reaction).
And for those that say, "but doing that much damage and stacking all those together is fun", let's see if you keep saying that after running into an evil NPC who does it to your character and kills you in a single hit.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I've always argued that they should have made the extra damage ability of any class, a bonus action to keep them from being stacked. Right now it is too eay to stack:
Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Hex, Paladin Smite, Channel Divinity, and Sneak Attack all in the same hit. And as someone who had 3 paladins in a group of 6 in my last 5 yr campaign - allowing Paladins to smite on every attack was OP as heck.
Whether its a bonus action (or call it what you will), I would have designed it so that the extra damage from classes don't stack and can only be used once per turn (that's once on your turn, and once as a reaction).
And for those that say, "but doing that much damage and stacking all those together is fun", let's see if you keep saying that after running into an evil NPC who does it to your character and kills you in a single hit.
This stacking doesn't work anywhere near as well as you're making it out.
Weapon Damage is weapon damage, all classes have that.
If you're getting damage from a spell (i.e. Divine Favour/Spirit Shroud/Holy Weapon), you need to cast it, these all are bonus action, I believe Spirit Shroud and Holy Weapon are still both Concentration.
Hex, Hex uses a bonus action and is concentration, so it does not stack with Spirit Shroud or Holy Weapon, it also is not on the Paladin spell list so that's a warlock level dip (do not believe magic initiate can grab either hex or hunter's mark any more) or perhaps you meant Hunter's Mark for Vengeance Paladin, but that also is Bonus Action and Concentration. Hex and Hunter's Mark in most combats are constantly consuming Bonus Actions, these are inherently bad spells and only stack up on creatures with very high HP (ones that last more than 1 round), essentially Hex and Hunter's Mark are only good if you have nothing better to do with your bonus action.
Paladin Smite, which grants Divine Smite uses a bonus action, this means if you cast another spell that uses BA or use channel divinity, you can't use it at all, right now this is nearly a dead feature. In optimal play, Smites are only really going to occur in the 3rd or 4th round of combat.
Channel Divinity requires Action or Bonus Action, the ones you probably mean are Bonus Action, things like Sacred Weapon or Vow of Enmity.
Sneak Attack means taking levels in Rogue, it's really not a good combo with Paladin at all, Ranger perhaps. You also need another front liner or advantage... if Rapier is still Vex, it is possible...
So at minimum, you need too, take 1 level in Rogue (sneak attack), take 1 level in warlock (that's 2 level dips!) for this, on top of this, you need too use 1 bonus action for Divine Favor, 1 bonus action for Hex, 1 bonus action for Channel Divinity and then 1 bonus action for Divine Smite.
Basically, you're talking about a 4 round set-up where you need to hope hex remains on the target, so that paladin can do a HUGE attack when most encounters are 3-4 rounds, yeah, not very realistic at all. Further too this, since it's a multi-class, you need 13 Strength, 13 Dexterity and 13 Charisma (unless they changed the requirements in oneD&D, haven't checked yet), that is quiet a spread considering a paladin also needs constitution and paladin which is a front-liner also needs to be passing concentration saving throws for the hex spell.
So for all of this, you're going to go what, Strength 17(15+2), Dexterity 13, Constitution 13 (12+1), Intelligence 8, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14. Best weapon you can use for Sneak Attack is Rapier, so you end out with what... an average 28 damage on a hit in round 4 of combat at level 5 (Paladin 3/Rogue 1/ Warlock1), or you could just stay Paladin and get 2 attacks, with divine favor and use smite round 2 for an average of around 37.5 damage on getting two hits, or 39.5 if you account for the extra feat/ASI.
Of course there is a too hit chance advantage from using rapier and channel divinity might also increase chance to hit if it's sacred weapon (vow of enmity will be almost completely wasted on a rapier). Sure at level 7 you get that extra attack too from Paladin 5, but you're missing other paladin features and really not doing that much more damage, if more damage at all, at most levels you'd be doing less damage for a much more complicated set-up that often takes so long, the encounter has ended before it's fully spun-up.
So no, these do not build-up at all like you're inferring and actually it just highlights how badly Paladin is nerfed into the ground via action economy on too many things now being bonus action. Divine Smite should remain a free action, just limited to once/round.
In regards to NOVA, Battlemaster Fighter can still out NOVA anything and that has not been addressed at all, fighter still has action surge and can spam all/most of their manoeuvrers in a single turn, regaining the full ability to do so on a short rest (compared to Long Rest for Paladin). At level 5, that Battlemaster fighter can do 60 damage if they land all 4 of their hits and do 1d8 damage manoeuvrers with a rapier.And if you still want more, Path of the Berserker at level 5 with Rage, Reckless attack and a great sword is doing an average 33 damage a turn every turn and they also still have their bonus action too, so with something like PAM they can be pushing 38.5 on all rounds but the round they activate rage on.
note: None of the numbers I supplied are accounting for accuracy or critical hits, or feat choices, but these numbers are already so far apart that those differences aren't going to significantly change the numbers enough, there are also other feat choices that could also be considered but none are helping out this weird stacking you've for some reason focused on. Also just for fun, the fighter still has a bonus action...
I've always argued that they should have made the extra damage ability of any class, a bonus action to keep them from being stacked. Right now it is too eay to stack:
Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Hex, Paladin Smite, Channel Divinity, and Sneak Attack all in the same hit. And as someone who had 3 paladins in a group of 6 in my last 5 yr campaign - allowing Paladins to smite on every attack was OP as heck.
Whether its a bonus action (or call it what you will), I would have designed it so that the extra damage from classes don't stack and can only be used once per turn (that's once on your turn, and once as a reaction).
And for those that say, "but doing that much damage and stacking all those together is fun", let's see if you keep saying that after running into an evil NPC who does it to your character and kills you in a single hit.
Huh?
-Weapon damage is a likely 1d6 or 1d8 (since we're using Sneak Attack). -Spell damage? From what? Hex? Warlock dip or use of a feat to get it? If you're using a smite spell, other than Divine Smite, then you will get one or the other. Both are now spells, so you can't Wrathful Smite and Divine Smite on the same turn. Do vengeance paladins get Hunter's Mark, still? I don't know, but I suspect not. -Channel Divinity is nice that it activates without an action and paladins get two uses now. -Sneak Attack? You want paladins to have to MC into rogue too? As if the class wasn't MAD enough? Why is this even in here? I doubt you believe that paladins have to turn to rogue to be effective, so why even put this in there? Paladins don't MC with rogue well, assuming the rules on MCing are the same or close to the same. Btw, rogues can now get an extra attack without using their bonus action. Rogues can have two attacks (Nick weapon property), Sneak Attack (without the cost of a resource) and their bonus action.
Smiting has always had large NOVA potential, but was unsustainable to use throughout the adventuring day. Which is why if a good DM put in several combats, the paladin would have to pick and choose when to smite. It's why paladins liked PAM and GWM, since they didn't necessarily have to smite to do decent damage. But since PAM and GWM have important features that now conflict with the bonus action for a paladin to Divine Smite, those feats are not as good for a paladin.
Making Divine Smite something you can only do once per turn would have solved most of the issues and said it counted towards the one spell per turn limit. Unless you want to be a super MAD character, needing STR, DEX, CON and CHA to play a ranged character, then paladins are kind of forced into being a sword and board paladin. 2h wielding paladins need not apply, unless you wish to do so with no feats that increase damage. I feel like WotC has given paladins FEWER options for playstyles, instead of more.
We probably should have expected it. WotC did huge layoffs last summer, game designers, play testers among them. So I doubt this edition has been as vetted and tested as it should have been. Cutting large numbers of staff as you're about to design a new edition is probably not the best way to do it, yet here we are.
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"The damage of the Psi Warrior's Psionic Strike occurs after the attack that delivers it. That damage is therefore not rolled twice on a crit." - Jeremy Crawford
Divine Smite
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
i wrote about that already in another thread ... since divine smite is a spell without an attack roll, it will not be able to crit, which makes it even more worthless ....
around lvl 11 ( radiant strikes lvl ) you will need to use at least a lvl 3 / 4 spell slot to not loose dmg when smithing vs e.g. a PAM attack .....
if you want to even use divine smite you are forced into twf and you don't have any options ... + don't even try to keep up with a wizard or swords bard
Lol. It just keeps getting better and better. Like I said, Divine Smite will be the same as it is pre One-nerf at my table. Nothing says I have to use this trash a** change.
i think im a little confused the wording says after you hit you then add the damage so it would be able to double unlike the psi warrior where it says after you hit and deal damage which you cant double on (i think that is really dumb tho so i allow it to crit at my table)
this is from the 2014 version not sure if it was changed in 2024 ^^
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal.
Since Divine smite is now a spell and no longer part of the attack it counts as add any relevant modifiers ( no sage advices yet ^^ ) but probaly will come down to DM decision
Let me embolden and underline the most important part that you're still missing. Divine Smite is not actually doing damage itself, it is augmenting the damage of the attack, Psionic Strike does not add damage to the attack, Psionic Strike does additional damage itself, after an attack.
So unless they changed critical hits in 2024 (plausible but changes in UA were immediately back peddled due to unpopularity), the following applies (from 2014):
In the case of Divine Smite, the attack DOES involve other damage dice, these damage die are explicitly stated to be as part of the attack.
in the case of Psionic Strike, the attack DOES NOT involve other damage dice. these damage die are implicitly stated to be after the attack.
^^ I read it the same way you do, and DS will still crit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Currently I see no reason to buy the new one dnd books. Most of the changes are nerfs not upgrades, why would I pay to feel weaker in my classes? But I am sure that was the point for things like Wizard, Druid, Paladin. All three seem worse not better.
All three seem better to me. Wizard, simply got no changes. they are more or less the same. Druid is way better and now I'd totally play one, when it was mostly a no-go before. Paladin also seems more interesting before. I played one a little, but wasn't interested by it. Now, I am interested in it getting magic at level 1, no conc divine favor, and weapon masteries looks really fun.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
fully agree on the paladin, but not on Wizard and Druid they got a titanic buff and can now hit with divine smite w/o needing to use a spell slot with every hit ..... starting from 4th spell lvl with +2d8 and increasing with +2d8 for each spell slot above 4th
I've always argued that they should have made the extra damage ability of any class, a bonus action to keep them from being stacked. Right now it is too eay to stack:
Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Hex, Paladin Smite, Channel Divinity, and Sneak Attack all in the same hit. And as someone who had 3 paladins in a group of 6 in my last 5 yr campaign - allowing Paladins to smite on every attack was OP as heck.
Whether its a bonus action (or call it what you will), I would have designed it so that the extra damage from classes don't stack and can only be used once per turn (that's once on your turn, and once as a reaction).
And for those that say, "but doing that much damage and stacking all those together is fun", let's see if you keep saying that after running into an evil NPC who does it to your character and kills you in a single hit.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This stacking doesn't work anywhere near as well as you're making it out.
Weapon Damage is weapon damage, all classes have that.
If you're getting damage from a spell (i.e. Divine Favour/Spirit Shroud/Holy Weapon), you need to cast it, these all are bonus action, I believe Spirit Shroud and Holy Weapon are still both Concentration.
Hex, Hex uses a bonus action and is concentration, so it does not stack with Spirit Shroud or Holy Weapon, it also is not on the Paladin spell list so that's a warlock level dip (do not believe magic initiate can grab either hex or hunter's mark any more) or perhaps you meant Hunter's Mark for Vengeance Paladin, but that also is Bonus Action and Concentration. Hex and Hunter's Mark in most combats are constantly consuming Bonus Actions, these are inherently bad spells and only stack up on creatures with very high HP (ones that last more than 1 round), essentially Hex and Hunter's Mark are only good if you have nothing better to do with your bonus action.
Paladin Smite, which grants Divine Smite uses a bonus action, this means if you cast another spell that uses BA or use channel divinity, you can't use it at all, right now this is nearly a dead feature. In optimal play, Smites are only really going to occur in the 3rd or 4th round of combat.
Channel Divinity requires Action or Bonus Action, the ones you probably mean are Bonus Action, things like Sacred Weapon or Vow of Enmity.
Sneak Attack means taking levels in Rogue, it's really not a good combo with Paladin at all, Ranger perhaps. You also need another front liner or advantage... if Rapier is still Vex, it is possible...
So at minimum, you need too, take 1 level in Rogue (sneak attack), take 1 level in warlock (that's 2 level dips!) for this, on top of this, you need too use 1 bonus action for Divine Favor, 1 bonus action for Hex, 1 bonus action for Channel Divinity and then 1 bonus action for Divine Smite.
Basically, you're talking about a 4 round set-up where you need to hope hex remains on the target, so that paladin can do a HUGE attack when most encounters are 3-4 rounds, yeah, not very realistic at all. Further too this, since it's a multi-class, you need 13 Strength, 13 Dexterity and 13 Charisma (unless they changed the requirements in oneD&D, haven't checked yet), that is quiet a spread considering a paladin also needs constitution and paladin which is a front-liner also needs to be passing concentration saving throws for the hex spell.
So for all of this, you're going to go what, Strength 17(15+2), Dexterity 13, Constitution 13 (12+1), Intelligence 8, Wisdom 10, Charisma 14. Best weapon you can use for Sneak Attack is Rapier, so you end out with what... an average 28 damage on a hit in round 4 of combat at level 5 (Paladin 3/Rogue 1/ Warlock1), or you could just stay Paladin and get 2 attacks, with divine favor and use smite round 2 for an average of around 37.5 damage on getting two hits, or 39.5 if you account for the extra feat/ASI.
Of course there is a too hit chance advantage from using rapier and channel divinity might also increase chance to hit if it's sacred weapon (vow of enmity will be almost completely wasted on a rapier). Sure at level 7 you get that extra attack too from Paladin 5, but you're missing other paladin features and really not doing that much more damage, if more damage at all, at most levels you'd be doing less damage for a much more complicated set-up that often takes so long, the encounter has ended before it's fully spun-up.
So no, these do not build-up at all like you're inferring and actually it just highlights how badly Paladin is nerfed into the ground via action economy on too many things now being bonus action. Divine Smite should remain a free action, just limited to once/round.
In regards to NOVA, Battlemaster Fighter can still out NOVA anything and that has not been addressed at all, fighter still has action surge and can spam all/most of their manoeuvrers in a single turn, regaining the full ability to do so on a short rest (compared to Long Rest for Paladin). At level 5, that Battlemaster fighter can do 60 damage if they land all 4 of their hits and do 1d8 damage manoeuvrers with a rapier.And if you still want more, Path of the Berserker at level 5 with Rage, Reckless attack and a great sword is doing an average 33 damage a turn every turn and they also still have their bonus action too, so with something like PAM they can be pushing 38.5 on all rounds but the round they activate rage on.
note: None of the numbers I supplied are accounting for accuracy or critical hits, or feat choices, but these numbers are already so far apart that those differences aren't going to significantly change the numbers enough, there are also other feat choices that could also be considered but none are helping out this weird stacking you've for some reason focused on. Also just for fun, the fighter still has a bonus action...
Huh?
-Weapon damage is a likely 1d6 or 1d8 (since we're using Sneak Attack).
-Spell damage? From what? Hex? Warlock dip or use of a feat to get it? If you're using a smite spell, other than Divine Smite, then you will get one or the other. Both are now spells, so you can't Wrathful Smite and Divine Smite on the same turn. Do vengeance paladins get Hunter's Mark, still? I don't know, but I suspect not.
-Channel Divinity is nice that it activates without an action and paladins get two uses now.
-Sneak Attack? You want paladins to have to MC into rogue too? As if the class wasn't MAD enough? Why is this even in here? I doubt you believe that paladins have to turn to rogue to be effective, so why even put this in there? Paladins don't MC with rogue well, assuming the rules on MCing are the same or close to the same. Btw, rogues can now get an extra attack without using their bonus action. Rogues can have two attacks (Nick weapon property), Sneak Attack (without the cost of a resource) and their bonus action.
Smiting has always had large NOVA potential, but was unsustainable to use throughout the adventuring day. Which is why if a good DM put in several combats, the paladin would have to pick and choose when to smite. It's why paladins liked PAM and GWM, since they didn't necessarily have to smite to do decent damage. But since PAM and GWM have important features that now conflict with the bonus action for a paladin to Divine Smite, those feats are not as good for a paladin.
Making Divine Smite something you can only do once per turn would have solved most of the issues and said it counted towards the one spell per turn limit. Unless you want to be a super MAD character, needing STR, DEX, CON and CHA to play a ranged character, then paladins are kind of forced into being a sword and board paladin. 2h wielding paladins need not apply, unless you wish to do so with no feats that increase damage. I feel like WotC has given paladins FEWER options for playstyles, instead of more.
We probably should have expected it. WotC did huge layoffs last summer, game designers, play testers among them. So I doubt this edition has been as vetted and tested as it should have been. Cutting large numbers of staff as you're about to design a new edition is probably not the best way to do it, yet here we are.