Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
Just because you CAN get more from mixing and matching, doesn't make the class broken. A pure class paladin, is solidly in the middle when it comes to throughput when compared to other pure class characters.
Just to add to this point. Paladin was seen as one of the strongest classes in 2014 and it's DPR didn't touch the power gamer builds. Taking like 4 dips (including grave domain cleric) where you can theoretically do over 1k damage in a single hit...
Just because broken builds exist on paper, it doesn't mean they actually perform well or should ever be played. Usually these builds end out being situational at best and just stupidly awful in practice. They also under perform until you get to like Tier 3 or even Tier 4, people acting like lower tiers don't matter is also problematic as lower tiers are generally the most played tiers.
Yes / No. Paladin has a very messy action economy and its main source of dealing damage doesn't care that you're a Paladin. If you can multiclass as a Paladin, there's a point where you're better off taking as many non-paladin levels (Bard, Sorc) fullcaster, as possible, because both the utility and damage your get from higher level spellcasting is a lot stronger than Radiant Strikes or Abjure Foes (Tasha's Mind Whip+).
Even Find Steed scales entirely off spell level, lol.
Just because you CAN get more from mixing and matching, doesn't make the class broken.
All of the Paladins features or spells don't care if you're a Paladin, either scaling off Charisma or Spell Slot Level. Its not that Paladins "get-more" from multiclassing, the class' structural issues make playing pure Paladin the worst way to play Paladin, even if they're both just hitting & smiting.
One element of 5e24's marketing was to "protect" class identity; Wizards can use Wish to cast Find Steed at 9th spell level; Paladins, at best, can spend a year of in-game crafting to create an enspelled item to cast Find Steed at 8th level (lol), or multiclass to compete at what's supposed to be "their" thing. There's clearly a design flaw by making the bulk of a Paladin's class identity revolve around spellcasting from the ground up, and it shows up at every tier of play.
A pure class paladin, is solidly in the middle when it comes to throughout when compared to other pure class characters. That makes it just fine.
Treantmonk's videos revolve around single target damage; not utility, control or aoe damage. Your Paladin at the table to even maintain damage is going to be using an action to attack the enemy (Attack action), cast <insert> smite (the Bonus action), and burn a limited resource each turn (their entire turn, and only on their turn), to deal adequate single target damage; being "in the middle" is crippling when the base class' core design is so restrictive in how you build or play it.
To put it this way: 2014 Paladin could use Thunderous Smite on a reaction attack; the 2024 Paladin can't.
The smite spells are both better and worse now, while at the same time, being significantly more restrictive than every other on-hit effect in the game for "in the middle" results.
Not liking the design is fair. Saying the performace is inadequate is not fair. And it's certainly not as bad as some others in this thread will have you believe.
That makes paladin...fine.
Its inadequate because of its design; its action economy is limited in ways that the other classes just aren't, making a difference between being a "good" or "bad" subclass for it revolve around whether or not the feature is a free action (see: Devotion/Vengeance) or not (Glory/Ancients); while being a half-caster immediately puts pressure on how the class specific spells are designed around the existence of fullcaster class options / spellcasting and (non-optional) multiclass.
Find Steed shouldn't be a Wish target; Banishing Smite is bad for 17th level spell. Oath of Glory should be deleted; Paladins should have features at the end of T2 into T3 that interact with their spellcasting to improve it (if they're going to be half-casters, THEY NEED features like that). Instead, the Paladin is designed entirely around Aura of Protection and is stuffed with bad to mediocre player options from level 6 on.
So I'd say its bad, not good, by virtue of design. Being playable shouldn't be the only benchmark for any class in D&D, fun and rewarding should be.
Treeantmonk was also only using half his spells as DPS. He could get more DPS out of it by using them all. Again, paladin is fine and the numbers support that conclusion. It is 100% adequate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
So don't roll a paladin. Easy. For the rest of us, paladins are still awesome.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Treeantmonk was also only using half his spells as DPS. He could get more DPS out of it by using them all. Again, paladin is fine and the numbers support that conclusion. It is 100% adequate.
You didn't address any points I made here; why bother responding to my comment if none of it even factors into what you want believe?
So don't roll a paladin. Easy. For the rest of us, paladins are still awesome.
Your response to criticism of the 2024 Paladin seems to be: "stop complaining" on repeat. At that point, why bother commenting on a forum at all?
My stick is current design of Paladin doesn't care if you're a Paladin, and really doesn't reward you for remaining a Paladin; also, Treantmonk's first Paladin build for actual play was a 1 Paladin / Celestial Warlock, his second Paladin build was a support-centric Paladin for that Warlock, lol.
Don't you think it's a little weird Celestial Warlock has a feature that has more synergy with a Paladin spell than anything on Paladin does?
My stick is current design of Paladin doesn't care if you're a Paladin, and really doesn't reward you for remaining a Paladin; also, Treantmonk's first Paladin build for actual play was a 1 Paladin / Celestial Warlock, his second Paladin build was a support-centric Paladin for that Warlock, lol.
Don't you think it's a little weird Celestial Warlock has a feature that has more synergy with a Paladin spell than anything on Paladin does?
I both agree and disagree with this. Paladin rewards you up until level 11 with level 12 being a feat. At level 11 radiant strikes come in.
At 13 the 4th tier of Paladin spells is lackluster and the best spells don't upcast that well on it, if at all. Warlock also rewards you by staying at Paladin 8 or below, since it makes Paladin SAD, adds more spells/features and eventually adds more damage. It isn't that Paladin stops rewarding you, it is that warlock rewards you more. I do think warlock multiclasses with Paladin a bit too well currently but that doesn't mean pure paladin is bad, it means the multiclass is overpowered.
Overall Paladin 13+ is terrible and the half-caster design of Paladin and Ranger should have been dropped in favour of something more akin to warlock's pact magic (not going into exactly how i think it should have looked). Divine Smite and find steed are bad features but DPR wise, Paladin is fine. I did recommend earlier some small changes I think else wise could gave fixed Paladin, such as a feature to make concentration saving throws with Charisma instead of Constitution.
However Paladin does have one glaring issue and that is the counter intuitive design, it makes it look like Divine Smite is still the viable way to go when it isn't (except to activate some subclass features... cas why?). Ranger has this issue but worse with hunter's mark. It feels like certain changes in Paladin were made to keep the class valid after they borked divine smite to such a degree that it is no longer good to use, Sacred Weapon and Vow of Enmity not using a Bonus Action/Action anymore, Divine Favor no longer having concentration... patchy fixes to keep the class relevant rather than having a proper solid class design.
Just to add to this point. Paladin was seen as one of the strongest classes in 2014 and it's DPR didn't touch the power gamer builds. Taking like 4 dips (including grave domain cleric) where you can theoretically do over 1k damage in a single hit...
Just because broken builds exist on paper, it doesn't mean they actually perform well or should ever be played. Usually these builds end out being situational at best and just stupidly awful in practice. They also under perform until you get to like Tier 3 or even Tier 4, people acting like lower tiers don't matter is also problematic as lower tiers are generally the most played tiers.
Treeantmonk was also only using half his spells as DPS. He could get more DPS out of it by using them all. Again, paladin is fine and the numbers support that conclusion. It is 100% adequate.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Billy and Jean go on a date.
Jean says "you are so good looking, you are so funny, you are so smart".
Billy says "you are adequate".
Jean walks out, they never see each other again.
So don't roll a paladin. Easy. For the rest of us, paladins are still awesome.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You didn't address any points I made here; why bother responding to my comment if none of it even factors into what you want believe?
The next response isn't much better:
Your response to criticism of the 2024 Paladin seems to be: "stop complaining" on repeat. At that point, why bother commenting on a forum at all?
My stick is current design of Paladin doesn't care if you're a Paladin, and really doesn't reward you for remaining a Paladin; also, Treantmonk's first Paladin build for actual play was a 1 Paladin / Celestial Warlock, his second Paladin build was a support-centric Paladin for that Warlock, lol.
Don't you think it's a little weird Celestial Warlock has a feature that has more synergy with a Paladin spell than anything on Paladin does?
I both agree and disagree with this. Paladin rewards you up until level 11 with level 12 being a feat. At level 11 radiant strikes come in.
At 13 the 4th tier of Paladin spells is lackluster and the best spells don't upcast that well on it, if at all. Warlock also rewards you by staying at Paladin 8 or below, since it makes Paladin SAD, adds more spells/features and eventually adds more damage. It isn't that Paladin stops rewarding you, it is that warlock rewards you more. I do think warlock multiclasses with Paladin a bit too well currently but that doesn't mean pure paladin is bad, it means the multiclass is overpowered.
Overall Paladin 13+ is terrible and the half-caster design of Paladin and Ranger should have been dropped in favour of something more akin to warlock's pact magic (not going into exactly how i think it should have looked). Divine Smite and find steed are bad features but DPR wise, Paladin is fine. I did recommend earlier some small changes I think else wise could gave fixed Paladin, such as a feature to make concentration saving throws with Charisma instead of Constitution.
However Paladin does have one glaring issue and that is the counter intuitive design, it makes it look like Divine Smite is still the viable way to go when it isn't (except to activate some subclass features... cas why?). Ranger has this issue but worse with hunter's mark. It feels like certain changes in Paladin were made to keep the class valid after they borked divine smite to such a degree that it is no longer good to use, Sacred Weapon and Vow of Enmity not using a Bonus Action/Action anymore, Divine Favor no longer having concentration... patchy fixes to keep the class relevant rather than having a proper solid class design.