The question was, have you ever played in a game where it happened? Or I’ll open it up and say have you ever seen it happen? Actually happen. Not theorize about how good a choice it is.
I don't get this argument. Not only have people been talking about Bards at their tables gaining Find Greater Steed using Magical Secrets for years at this point, along a litany of D&D content creators highlighting how great a pick the spell was for Bard (2014), in the 2024 PHB reveal videos Crawford specifically highlights removing half-caster spells from Magical Secrets as options under the explicit pretense of disallowing Bards to getting spells like Find Steed (2024).
... you could always use Wish to cast Find Greater Steed, and people have been using Wish in this way, its just now instead of just having a Paladin's flying steed, they get a better version of said steed for no discernable reason.
Like, giving Paladins a feature called "Faithful Steed," under the pretense that Find Steed is something "special" for the class, that's "intended" for the Paladin (thus the changes to Magical Secrets) only to seemingly forget how Wish works, creating a situation where a fullcaster doesn't need a single Paladin level to get the best version of said steed, is not only bad higher tiers of play, its just a lame element of 2024's version of the game that shouldn't be a thing.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
The question was, have you ever played in a game where it happened? Or I’ll open it up and say have you ever seen it happen? Actually happen. Not theorize about how good a choice it is.
I don't get this argument. Not only have people been talking about Bards at their tables gaining Find Greater Steed using Magical Secrets for years at this point, along a litany of D&D content creators highlighting how great a pick the spell was for Bard (2014), in the 2024 PHB reveal videos Crawford specifically highlights removing half-caster spells from Magical Secrets as options under the explicit pretense of disallowing Bards to getting spells like Find Steed (2024).
... you could always use Wish to cast Find Greater Steed, and people have been using Wish in this way, its just now instead of just having a Paladin's flying steed, they get a better version of said steed for no discernable reason.
Like, giving Paladins a feature called "Faithful Steed," under the pretense that Find Steed is something "special" for the class, that's "intended" for the Paladin (thus the changes to Magical Secrets) only to seemingly forget how Wish works, creating a situation where a fullcaster doesn't need a single Paladin level to get the best version of said steed, is not only bad higher tiers of play, its just a lame element of 2024's version of the game that shouldn't be a thing.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
So a bard (Magical Secrets), sorcerer, warlock (The Genie), or wizard. A cleric must wait for 20th level, and then wait 2d4 days afterward, and a druid simply cannot. For the rest, it's their only 9th-level spell slot per day. Just looking at the bard, Wish competes with every other 9th-level spell it can prepare from the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. And if they advance to bard 20 to obtain Words of Creation, it's also competing with Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill.
There's this little thing called opportunity cost, and that matters. Only nothing is for nothing.
I also don't think the spell works the way you, and presumably the "content creators" you listen to, think it does. Wish duplicates, without imparting stress, a spell of 8th-level or lower. That means casting a Find Steed, a 2nd-level spell, as if an 8th-level spell slot were used; not actually casting the duplicated spell at 9th-level. The people on YouTube are a dime a dozen and get paid with clicks and views. That doesn't mean their information is accurate. I've seen more basic mistakes, like rules errors, than I care to count. But there's no accountability, and people often defer to confident presentation when they lack foundational knowledge and experience.
The steeds attack is very weak. I think they actually forgot to add its strength modifier to its damage roll.
It is unfortunate you cant attack with the steed while riding it. That has to do more with the poor mounted combat rules than the spell. Maybe thats something you could negotiate with your DM? Like if the mount does not move it can attack instead?
You Can no longer cast any spell (like haste) that targets you and share the benefit with your steed. Too bad. That is very fun.
Steeds hp and AC scale poorly. For higher level games it may not be worth it to cast this unless its an off day or you need flight.
Pro's
While mounted its a free dash or disengage every round without even using a bonus action. That kind of increased mobility on the field is extremley valuable.
The new bonus actions of teleport, frightened or healing are great. Although the healing does not scale, it is great for brining players up from zero without wasting an action
Healing spells are much better in new edition so sharing healing with your steed gives it more survivability in lower level play.
At lower levels it will still work pretty well to be side by side in combat for attacking and soaking up damage
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Overall when compared to other second level spells its still really good. For example it gives you a better teleport than misty step, and that is a very popular spell. It gives you a better bonus action heal than a 2nd level healing word, and it gives you the mobility of a monk or rogue without having to use a bonus action. Unfortunately Paladins needed a bit of balancing down and this was part of it. Is Still a good spell though.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
So a bard (Magical Secrets), sorcerer, warlock (The Genie), or wizard. A cleric must wait for 20th level, and then wait 2d4 days afterward, and a druid simply cannot. For the rest, it's their only 9th-level spell slot per day.
There's this little thing called opportunity cost, and that matters. Only nothing is for nothing.
Its permanent duration spell.
The wait to recast it is a non issue for campaigns with any semblance of down-time, or even a high-level one-shot (a DM would have to give me a very good argument as to why this could have not have been cast prior at some point).
Just looking at the bard, Wish competes with every other 9th-level spell it can prepare from the cleric, druid, or izard spell list. And if they advance to bard 20 to obtain Words of Creation, it's also competing with Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill.
Every Bard is taking Wish. Every Bard that wants to Wish Find Steed's Otherworldly Steed can literally do so at no conceivable detriment beyond not having access to their 9th level spell slot for the day.
I also don't think the spell works the way you, and presumably the "content creators" you listen to, think it does.
I got my take on Wish from reading the actual spell, and nothing on the duplication effect says anything about reducing the spell level of what you're duplicating. Wish is not a once-per-lowest-level-cast class feature; the 8th level duplication effect exists to limit the spell's options for what it copies to be anything 8th level or lower.
That means casting a Find Steed, a 2nd-level spell, as if an 8th-level spell slot were used; not actually casting the duplicated spell at 9th-level.
Actual text of Wish:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Point to where the spell text says: "...this spell is cast at 8th level."
Wish when cast is still a 9th level spell, that uses a 9th spell slot; even if the text changes to <insert other spell text here>, its still a 9th level spell that uses a 9th spell slot. Any other interpretation is homebrew. All the Otherworldly Steed stat-block cares about is the spell level.
The people on YouTube are a dime a dozen and get paid with clicks and views. That doesn't mean their information is accurate. I've seen more basic mistakes, like rules errors, than I care to count. But there's no accountability, and people often defer to confident presentation when they lack foundational knowledge and experience.
This whole take on YouTube is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, or any argument on what Wish actually does, or how it interacts with other spells.
The trend of casting Greater Find Steed was popular for Bards because at what you could Greater Find Steed as a Bard; while spell wasn't a very strong a choice for Wish before it could scale. I fully expect your DM's spellcasting BBEGs/Vengers to conjure their Otherworldly Steeds, or with future content to releases, to feature spellcaster stat blocks with a steed.
Until then, I fully endorse players to do what I'm going to do, and get my free Crawford-approved Steed.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
So a bard (Magical Secrets), sorcerer, warlock (The Genie), or wizard. A cleric must wait for 20th level, and then wait 2d4 days afterward, and a druid simply cannot. For the rest, it's their only 9th-level spell slot per day.
There's this little thing called opportunity cost, and that matters. Only nothing is for nothing.
Its permanent duration spell.
The wait to recast it is a non issue for campaigns with any semblance of down-time, or even a high-level one-shot (a DM would have to give me a very good argument as to why this could have not have been cast prior at some point).
Just looking at the bard, Wish competes with every other 9th-level spell it can prepare from the cleric, druid, or izard spell list. And if they advance to bard 20 to obtain Words of Creation, it's also competing with Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill.
Every Bard is taking Wish. Every Bard that wants to Wish Find Steed's Otherworldly Steed can literally do so at no conceivable detriment beyond not having access to their 9th level spell slot for the day.
I also don't think the spell works the way you, and presumably the "content creators" you listen to, think it does.
I got my take on Wish from reading the actual spell, and nothing on the duplication effect says anything about reducing the spell level of what you're duplicating. Wish is not a once-per-lowest-level-cast class feature; the 8th level duplication effect exists to limit the spell's options for what it copies to be anything 8th level or lower.
That means casting a Find Steed, a 2nd-level spell, as if an 8th-level spell slot were used; not actually casting the duplicated spell at 9th-level.
Actual text of Wish:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Point to where the spell text says: "...this spell is cast at 8th level."
Wish when cast is still a 9th level spell, that uses a 9th spell slot; even if the text changes to <insert other spell text here>, its still a 9th level spell that uses a 9th spell slot. Any other interpretation is homebrew. All the Otherworldly Steed stat-block cares about is the spell level.
The people on YouTube are a dime a dozen and get paid with clicks and views. That doesn't mean their information is accurate. I've seen more basic mistakes, like rules errors, than I care to count. But there's no accountability, and people often defer to confident presentation when they lack foundational knowledge and experience.
This whole take on YouTube is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, or any argument on what Wish actually does, or how it interacts with other spells.
Dude, my post is two above yours. You had to go out of your way to literally move entire sentences around and butcher what I wrote to try and make your point. That's acting in bad faith, and you should know that. Engage honestly or not at all.
Opportunity Cost means you only have so many spells you can know and only have so many spell slots per day. Wish, as powerful as it is, should not be assumed to always be known. For what you claim to be true, it's not a choice and everyone should just have it. And we both know that's bunk.
And I stand by my interpretation of the spell. You may be using a 9th-level spell slot, but you're using it to cast a spell off your spell list as if it were 8th-level. You aren't upcasting to 9th. Your interpretation is dishonest.
Dude, my post is two above yours. You had to go out of your way to literally move entire sentences around and butcher what I wrote to try and make your point. That's acting in bad faith, and you should know that. Engage honestly or not at all.
You quoted my previous post and replied directly to me; I responded to each separate point you made, stop being disingenuous.
Opportunity Cost means you only have so many spells you can know and only have so many spell slots per day. Wish, as powerful as it is, should not be assumed to always be known. For what you claim to be true, it's not a choice and everyone should just have it. And we both know that's bunk
Everyone who can use Wish, will learn / prepare Wish.
And I stand by my interpretation of the spell. You may be using a 9th-level spell slot, but you're using it to cast a spell off your spell list as if it were 8th-level.
Quote where it says the duplication effect on the Wish spell is cast at 8th level.
"Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block."
Your interpretation is dishonest.
Its reading. To interpret it any other way requires you to ignore both the explicit text on Find Steed stating the spell slot used determines the Steed's stat-block, and to imagine Wish says something entirely different than what it says it does.
You aren't casting Find Steed with a higher-level spell slot. You're casting Wish, and one of its effects is letting you duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. Casting Find Steed with a 9th level spell slot is casting a spell of 9th level, because the spell's level is generally determined by the spell slot used to cast it. Wish carves out an exception to that rule by letting players do one of several things out of the ordinary.
This is not difficult, though I suppose if we want to be pedantic about your example then Find Steedisn't being cast with a spell slot.
You removed entire sentences from the paragraph they were part of to change the context of what I wrote. Only then did you respond, but since you didn't respond to the points I raised you didn't respond to me. You invented something to react to; just as you've invented an interpretation of a spell that isn't RAW or RAI. My point about opportunity cost stands because, even if someone did choose Wish as one of their spells, it still competes with other spells because you only have one spell slot of 9th level.
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Duplicate: adjective
"Exactly like something else, especially through having been copied."
Wish states in the duplication effect you're casting the spell you're duplicating. The spell in question:
...explicitly states: "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block."
You are using a 9th level spell slot to cast Wish, and choosing to use the duplicatation effect to cast Find Steed. Nothing you're arguing here is supported by either spell, and that's why I asked you to quote the text you're basing this interpretation off.
This is not difficult, though I suppose if we want to be pedantic about your example then Find Steed isn't being cast with a spell slot.
just as you've invented an interpretation of a spell that isn't RAW or RAI.
Quote the text in either spell or where the 2024 DMG that proves me wrong; hell, I'll even take a tweet from Crawford that implies this on 2014 Wish at this point.
Just repeating: "You're wrong" is not an argument.
You've been at this for three weeks, and you still haven't convinced anyone. I get the frustration, but take it down a notch. Increasing the font doesn't help you.
And while I won't cite the DMG, would the 2024 Free Rules and Player's Handbook suffice?
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
By the by, this text also appears in the 2014 Basic Rules and Player's Handbook. It's 10 years old, and I think the fact you haven't learned this by now is slightly embarrassing.
Since one of the effects of Wish is to duplicate a spell of 8th level or lower, you're duplicating Find Steed as if it were cast at level 8. As I said in my previous post, this isn't difficult.
Edit: and just for fun, here's a xeet(?) from Crawford in 2017.
A spell you duplicate with wish can be cast at a higher level, as long as that level is no higher than 8th.
You've been at this for three weeks, and you still haven't convinced anyone. I get the frustration, but take it down a notch. Increasing the font doesn't help you.
This is the first time you've cited anything for your argument in direct response to me using a larger font... and lowered the threshold for acceptable evidence to: Tweet from Crawford relating to 2014 Wish.
So, I'd say using "Header 2" was a complete success.
And while I won't cite the DMG, would the 2024 Free Rules and Player's Handbook suffice?
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
By the by, this text also appears in the 2014 Basic Rules and Player's Handbook. It's 10 years old, and I think the fact you haven't learned this by now is slightly embarrassing.
To quote you:
And I stand by my interpretation of the spell. You may be using a 9th-level spell slot, but you're using it to cast a spell off your spell list as if it were 8th-level. You aren't upcasting to 9th.
To quote me initially:
Wish when cast is still a 9th level spell, that uses a 9th spell slot; even if the text changes to <insert other spell text here>, its still a 9th level spell that uses a 9th spell slot. Any other interpretation is homebrew. All the Otherworldly Steed stat-block cares about is the spell level.
Which interpretation lines up with your example?
Since one of the effects of Wish is to duplicate a spell of 8th level or lower, you're duplicating Find Steed as if it were cast at level 8. As I said in my previous post, this isn't difficult.
These two things do not mean the same thing; Find Steed doesn’t have a scaling effect to upcast, otherworldly steed's stat-block is determined by the spell-slot used to cast the spell. Which in this case, is a 9th level spell slot.
I just know Crawford's prone to be inconsistent with his determination of what spells or features do; but I'm glad by lowering the threshold to: Tweet, you found "something" to argue.
If you already had a Crawford quote, why didn't you present it ahead of time? Did I activate your trap card?
Are you playing a game, Cezmi, or are you taking this seriously? And, yes, we all know
I followed the link, and I can't even view the post Crawford responded to. For me, at least, his reply is devoid of context and doesn't mean anything by itself. Worse, "I'd let the caster decide," isn't just a non-answer in the context of this discussion. It's an abdication of the DM's responsibility to interpret and adjudicate the rules. And if we're just playing Calvinball, then none of this matters, and you've wasted everyone's time.
Including your own.
And we both know your interpretation isn't supported by the rules as written. To insist otherwise means every spell of 8th level or lower duplicated via Wish is actually cast as if it were level 9. And that's just not the case. That violates the text of the actual spell being cast. And this isn't some edge case, either, where Find Steed is a special snowflake.
I don't see an amicable solution to this exchange, so I ask any moderators who see this to please close the thread.
Edit: Since the tooltips I've been using seem to be linking to the 2014 versions of these spells, and not the 2024 versions, I'm posting the addresses below:
As anyone who follows them can see, there's really no way this can be confused. I'm invoking Hanlon's razor and washing my hands of this thread; whether it's closed or not.
If you already had a Crawford quote, why didn't you present it ahead of time? Did I activate your trap card?
I wanted to "something" concrete as to where your argument was coming from. The entire exchange was: "You're wrong," without addressing how you're getting to the interpretation you made. A Crawford tweet at least gives me a reason as to why you're arguing what you're arguing.
I followed the link, and I can't even view the post Crawford responded to. For me, at least, his reply is devoid of context and doesn't mean anything by itself. Worse, "I'd let the caster decide," isn't just a non-answer in the context of this discussion...
I'd assume you'd have to log into Twitter/X, but that's the Tweet Crawford had in 2014 when Wish was still a fresh spell in his mind.
And we both know your interpretation isn't supported by the rules as written.
Which rule says a 9th level spell slot is an 8th spell slot?
To insist otherwise means every spell of 8th level or lower duplicated via Wish is actually cast as if it were level 9. And that's just not the case.
What people have been arguing relating to the duplication effect of Wish for the last 10 years is:
"Is my Wish;Fireball cast at 9th or 8th level?" because of how upcasting a spell is normally worded, with resounding answer being *shrug* for most DM's because its Wish. The difference is inconsequential mechanically, as the same time, Wish is Wish, it does everything and anything, and intentionally game-warpingly powerful.
That violates the text of the actual spell being cast. And this isn't some edge case, either, where Find Steed is a special snowflake.
The reason why I keep using the text is because it doesn't violate the text.
Otherworldly Steed's stat-block cares about the spell slot consumed and nothing else; in this case, a 9th level spell slot. It's plastered all over the stat-block and the spell's text itself. Can a DM rule otherwise? Sure, but why would they over 10hp or 1 ac?
It doesn’t even impact the reality of this argument that Paladins don't even cast their supposed class-identity specific spell better than a Wizard does; that's by design. Fullcasting or Paladin x 5 / Fullcaster multiclassing leads to the best version of "Paladin's" Find Steed because there was no effort made to make it scale specifically for Paladins.
I don't see an amicable solution to this exchange, so I ask any moderators who see this to please close the thread.
How about this; this is my final response to you; I'm conceding anything, but feel free to say I am.
I've been playing paladin using 2014. I've been trying to use different spells and literally have only used divine smite once so far, low level campaign. The group is switching to 2024 rules now. I read wotc want you to use more spells and be more creative....I'm on board but how is that going to work, changing only one spell per long rest when 2014 was all of them could be changed. What's that? The local village is being raided? Give me FOUR DAYS for my level 3 paladin to re-learn the best 4 spells for the job (excluding always learned). I was not planning on only ever using divine smite but I have to say I am very disappointed in the 2024 rules in general.
I don't get this argument. Not only have people been talking about Bards at their tables gaining Find Greater Steed using Magical Secrets for years at this point, along a litany of D&D content creators highlighting how great a pick the spell was for Bard (2014), in the 2024 PHB reveal videos Crawford specifically highlights removing half-caster spells from Magical Secrets as options under the explicit pretense of disallowing Bards to getting spells like Find Steed (2024).
... you could always use Wish to cast Find Greater Steed, and people have been using Wish in this way, its just now instead of just having a Paladin's flying steed, they get a better version of said steed for no discernable reason.
Like, giving Paladins a feature called "Faithful Steed," under the pretense that Find Steed is something "special" for the class, that's "intended" for the Paladin (thus the changes to Magical Secrets) only to seemingly forget how Wish works, creating a situation where a fullcaster doesn't need a single Paladin level to get the best version of said steed, is not only bad higher tiers of play, its just a lame element of 2024's version of the game that shouldn't be a thing.
And to answer your question: Next time I'm playing a fullcaster at 17th level, I will, because why wouldn't I? Its free infinite flight.
So basically no, you haven't.
So a bard (Magical Secrets), sorcerer, warlock (The Genie), or wizard. A cleric must wait for 20th level, and then wait 2d4 days afterward, and a druid simply cannot. For the rest, it's their only 9th-level spell slot per day. Just looking at the bard, Wish competes with every other 9th-level spell it can prepare from the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. And if they advance to bard 20 to obtain Words of Creation, it's also competing with Power Word Heal and Power Word Kill.
There's this little thing called opportunity cost, and that matters. Only nothing is for nothing.
I also don't think the spell works the way you, and presumably the "content creators" you listen to, think it does. Wish duplicates, without imparting stress, a spell of 8th-level or lower. That means casting a Find Steed, a 2nd-level spell, as if an 8th-level spell slot were used; not actually casting the duplicated spell at 9th-level. The people on YouTube are a dime a dozen and get paid with clicks and views. That doesn't mean their information is accurate. I've seen more basic mistakes, like rules errors, than I care to count. But there's no accountability, and people often defer to confident presentation when they lack foundational knowledge and experience.
New Find steed
Con's:
The steeds attack is very weak. I think they actually forgot to add its strength modifier to its damage roll.
It is unfortunate you cant attack with the steed while riding it. That has to do more with the poor mounted combat rules than the spell. Maybe thats something you could negotiate with your DM? Like if the mount does not move it can attack instead?
You Can no longer cast any spell (like haste) that targets you and share the benefit with your steed. Too bad. That is very fun.
Steeds hp and AC scale poorly. For higher level games it may not be worth it to cast this unless its an off day or you need flight.
Pro's
While mounted its a free dash or disengage every round without even using a bonus action. That kind of increased mobility on the field is extremley valuable.
The new bonus actions of teleport, frightened or healing are great. Although the healing does not scale, it is great for brining players up from zero without wasting an action
Healing spells are much better in new edition so sharing healing with your steed gives it more survivability in lower level play.
At lower levels it will still work pretty well to be side by side in combat for attacking and soaking up damage
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Overall when compared to other second level spells its still really good. For example it gives you a better teleport than misty step, and that is a very popular spell. It gives you a better bonus action heal than a 2nd level healing word, and it gives you the mobility of a monk or rogue without having to use a bonus action. Unfortunately Paladins needed a bit of balancing down and this was part of it. Is Still a good spell though.
Its permanent duration spell.
The wait to recast it is a non issue for campaigns with any semblance of down-time, or even a high-level one-shot (a DM would have to give me a very good argument as to why this could have not have been cast prior at some point).
Every Bard is taking Wish. Every Bard that wants to Wish Find Steed's Otherworldly Steed can literally do so at no conceivable detriment beyond not having access to their 9th level spell slot for the day.
I got my take on Wish from reading the actual spell, and nothing on the duplication effect says anything about reducing the spell level of what you're duplicating. Wish is not a once-per-lowest-level-cast class feature; the 8th level duplication effect exists to limit the spell's options for what it copies to be anything 8th level or lower.
Actual text of Wish:
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Point to where the spell text says: "...this spell is cast at 8th level."
Wish when cast is still a 9th level spell, that uses a 9th spell slot; even if the text changes to <insert other spell text here>, its still a 9th level spell that uses a 9th spell slot. Any other interpretation is homebrew. All the Otherworldly Steed stat-block cares about is the spell level.
This whole take on YouTube is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, or any argument on what Wish actually does, or how it interacts with other spells.
PHB: September 17, 2024
DMG: Release date: November 12, 2024
The trend of casting Greater Find Steed was popular for Bards because at what you could Greater Find Steed as a Bard; while spell wasn't a very strong a choice for Wish before it could scale. I fully expect your DM's spellcasting BBEGs/Vengers to conjure their Otherworldly Steeds, or with future content to releases, to feature spellcaster stat blocks with a steed.
Until then, I fully endorse players to do what I'm going to do, and get my free Crawford-approved Steed.
Dude, my post is two above yours. You had to go out of your way to literally move entire sentences around and butcher what I wrote to try and make your point. That's acting in bad faith, and you should know that. Engage honestly or not at all.
Opportunity Cost means you only have so many spells you can know and only have so many spell slots per day. Wish, as powerful as it is, should not be assumed to always be known. For what you claim to be true, it's not a choice and everyone should just have it. And we both know that's bunk.
And I stand by my interpretation of the spell. You may be using a 9th-level spell slot, but you're using it to cast a spell off your spell list as if it were 8th-level. You aren't upcasting to 9th. Your interpretation is dishonest.
You quoted my previous post and replied directly to me; I responded to each separate point you made, stop being disingenuous.
Everyone who can use Wish, will learn / prepare Wish.
Quote where it says the duplication effect on the Wish spell is cast at 8th level.
Read Find Steed: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618879-find-steed
"Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block."
Its reading. To interpret it any other way requires you to ignore both the explicit text on Find Steed stating the spell slot used determines the Steed's stat-block, and to imagine Wish says something entirely different than what it says it does.
You aren't casting Find Steed with a higher-level spell slot. You're casting Wish, and one of its effects is letting you duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. Casting Find Steed with a 9th level spell slot is casting a spell of 9th level, because the spell's level is generally determined by the spell slot used to cast it. Wish carves out an exception to that rule by letting players do one of several things out of the ordinary.
This is not difficult, though I suppose if we want to be pedantic about your example then Find Steed isn't being cast with a spell slot.
You removed entire sentences from the paragraph they were part of to change the context of what I wrote. Only then did you respond, but since you didn't respond to the points I raised you didn't respond to me. You invented something to react to; just as you've invented an interpretation of a spell that isn't RAW or RAI. My point about opportunity cost stands because, even if someone did choose Wish as one of their spells, it still competes with other spells because you only have one spell slot of 9th level.
Wish: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619213-wish
"The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Duplicate: adjective
"Exactly like something else, especially through having been copied."
Wish states in the duplication effect you're casting the spell you're duplicating. The spell in question:
Find Steed: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618879-find-steed
...explicitly states: "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block."
You are using a 9th level spell slot to cast Wish, and choosing to use the duplicatation effect to cast Find Steed. Nothing you're arguing here is supported by either spell, and that's why I asked you to quote the text you're basing this interpretation off.
Quote the text in either spell or where the 2024 DMG that proves me wrong; hell, I'll even take a tweet from Crawford that implies this on 2014 Wish at this point.
Just repeating: "You're wrong" is not an argument.
You've been at this for three weeks, and you still haven't convinced anyone. I get the frustration, but take it down a notch. Increasing the font doesn't help you.
And while I won't cite the DMG, would the 2024 Free Rules and Player's Handbook suffice?
By the by, this text also appears in the 2014 Basic Rules and Player's Handbook. It's 10 years old, and I think the fact you haven't learned this by now is slightly embarrassing.
Since one of the effects of Wish is to duplicate a spell of 8th level or lower, you're duplicating Find Steed as if it were cast at level 8. As I said in my previous post, this isn't difficult.
Edit: and just for fun, here's a xeet(?) from Crawford in 2017.
You never even looked.
This is the first time you've cited anything for your argument in direct response to me using a larger font... and lowered the threshold for acceptable evidence to: Tweet from Crawford relating to 2014 Wish.
So, I'd say using "Header 2" was a complete success.
To quote you:
To quote me initially:
Which interpretation lines up with your example?
These two things do not mean the same thing; Find Steed doesn’t have a scaling effect to upcast, otherworldly steed's stat-block is determined by the spell-slot used to cast the spell. Which in this case, is a 9th level spell slot.
Fireball: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618887-fireball
"Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d6 for each spell slot level above 3."
Find Steed: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618879-find-steed
"Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block."
I did; https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/515864883737669632
Jeremy Crawford: "I'd let the caster decide."
I just know Crawford's prone to be inconsistent with his determination of what spells or features do; but I'm glad by lowering the threshold to: Tweet, you found "something" to argue.
If you already had a Crawford quote, why didn't you present it ahead of time? Did I activate your trap card?
Are you playing a game, Cezmi, or are you taking this seriously? And, yes, we all know
I followed the link, and I can't even view the post Crawford responded to. For me, at least, his reply is devoid of context and doesn't mean anything by itself. Worse, "I'd let the caster decide," isn't just a non-answer in the context of this discussion. It's an abdication of the DM's responsibility to interpret and adjudicate the rules. And if we're just playing Calvinball, then none of this matters, and you've wasted everyone's time.
Including your own.
And we both know your interpretation isn't supported by the rules as written. To insist otherwise means every spell of 8th level or lower duplicated via Wish is actually cast as if it were level 9. And that's just not the case. That violates the text of the actual spell being cast. And this isn't some edge case, either, where Find Steed is a special snowflake.
I don't see an amicable solution to this exchange, so I ask any moderators who see this to please close the thread.
Edit: Since the tooltips I've been using seem to be linking to the 2014 versions of these spells, and not the 2024 versions, I'm posting the addresses below:
As anyone who follows them can see, there's really no way this can be confused. I'm invoking Hanlon's razor and washing my hands of this thread; whether it's closed or not.
I wanted to "something" concrete as to where your argument was coming from. The entire exchange was: "You're wrong," without addressing how you're getting to the interpretation you made. A Crawford tweet at least gives me a reason as to why you're arguing what you're arguing.
I'd assume you'd have to log into Twitter/X, but that's the Tweet Crawford had in 2014 when Wish was still a fresh spell in his mind.
Edit: https://www.sageadvice.eu/wish-to-duplicate-lower-level-spell-is-it-considered-to-have-been-cast-as-a-9th-level-slot/
Which rule says a 9th level spell slot is an 8th spell slot?
What people have been arguing relating to the duplication effect of Wish for the last 10 years is:
"Is my Wish;Fireball cast at 9th or 8th level?" because of how upcasting a spell is normally worded, with resounding answer being *shrug* for most DM's because its Wish. The difference is inconsequential mechanically, as the same time, Wish is Wish, it does everything and anything, and intentionally game-warpingly powerful.
The reason why I keep using the text is because it doesn't violate the text.
Otherworldly Steed's stat-block cares about the spell slot consumed and nothing else; in this case, a 9th level spell slot. It's plastered all over the stat-block and the spell's text itself. Can a DM rule otherwise? Sure, but why would they over 10 hp or 1 ac?
It doesn’t even impact the reality of this argument that Paladins don't even cast their supposed class-identity specific spell better than a Wizard does; that's by design. Fullcasting or Paladin x 5 / Fullcaster multiclassing leads to the best version of "Paladin's" Find Steed because there was no effort made to make it scale specifically for Paladins.
How about this; this is my final response to you; I'm conceding anything, but feel free to say I am.
I've been playing paladin using 2014. I've been trying to use different spells and literally have only used divine smite once so far, low level campaign. The group is switching to 2024 rules now. I read wotc want you to use more spells and be more creative....I'm on board but how is that going to work, changing only one spell per long rest when 2014 was all of them could be changed. What's that? The local village is being raided? Give me FOUR DAYS for my level 3 paladin to re-learn the best 4 spells for the job (excluding always learned). I was not planning on only ever using divine smite but I have to say I am very disappointed in the 2024 rules in general.