I rolled very well on my stats, so I’m not sure if I should go two-handed, sword-and-board, or dual-wielding. Right now, since I’m such a low level, I plan to use a shield until Tier 2 when I can get better armor.
I was thinking of going to Level 6 in Paladin for the aura, but I’m not sure where to go after that.
The group includes a monk, ranger, and cleric.
A Whisper Bard could be a good choice for the added melee damage. Two levels of Warlock would give me a familiar and Eldritch Blast. Is there anything else I should consider? Thanks for reading my post!
Well, dual wielding is a problem if you plan to cast spells, as you’ll need a free hand for many of them. Sword and board, you can always take warcaster, with that party composition, I’d actually consider sword and board, as you’ll want someone kind of tanky. But as always the choice come down to more damage (2-handing) vs AC (sword and board). I’d not take shilleleigh unless you know it’s a low magic campaign. It will be fine until you find a +1 weapon, then it will be useless. After level 6 paladin, I’d probably go level 7 paladin. Pallys get good stuff, I wouldn’t want to miss the higher level options.
Well, dual wielding is a problem if you plan to cast spells, as you’ll need a free hand for many of them. Sword and board, you can always take warcaster, with that party composition, I’d actually consider sword and board, as you’ll want someone kind of tanky. But as always the choice come down to more damage (2-handing) vs AC (sword and board). I’d not take shilleleigh unless you know it’s a low magic campaign. It will be fine until you find a +1 weapon, then it will be useless. After level 6 paladin, I’d probably go level 7 paladin. Pallys get good stuff, I wouldn’t want to miss the higher level options.
I disagree on dropping Shilleleigh. In the 2024 version of the spell, it comes with a bunch of benefits:
1) You can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls, allowing this paladin to be more SAD with Charisma if wanted
2) It lets you deal Force damage instead of the weapon's normal damage, so it will be able to "overcome" resistances to bludgeoning damage
3) The damage increases with cantrip level tiers. Right off the bat you could already be dealing 1d8 damage holding a quarterstaff in only one hand. By level 5, this paladin could be dealing a d10 damage and later at level 11 or 17, the quarterstaff will be dealing the same damage as a great weapon. This could work well for "sword and board" without dropping damage from using a versatile weapon with one hand.
4) Theres no restriction saying you can only cast it targeting a nonmagical Club or Quarterstaff, so if they later find a +1 Club or +1 Quarterstaff, they still can use Shilleleigh to boost it further.
I rolled very well on my stats, so I’m not sure if I should go two-handed, sword-and-board, or dual-wielding. Right now, since I’m such a low level, I plan to use a shield until Tier 2 when I can get better armor.
I was thinking of going to Level 6 in Paladin for the aura, but I’m not sure where to go after that.
The group includes a monk, ranger, and cleric.
A Whisper Bard could be a good choice for the added melee damage. Two levels of Warlock would give me a familiar and Eldritch Blast. Is there anything else I should consider? Thanks for reading my post!
I would recommend against dual-wielding. I assume with your choice of Shilleleigh as a cantrip you want to use Clubs, but the spell takes a bonus action to cast, so would require multiple rounds of setup to use in combat for two weapons. I think the best route would be either just using the quarterstaff on its own or quarterstaff + shield, but as Xalthu pointed out you may want to wait until you have Warcaster for the latter
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With those stats you cant go wrong. If you have shillelagh you may as well go sword and board. The topple mastery on quaterstaffs is great.
Paladins are not great at ranged attacks so warlock for EB makes sense. If you can make hexblade dip work, do that. Adding the shield spell to your list is amazing for extra tankyness. You wont likely have much else to do with your reaction and you can use the warlock spell slots (that reset on a short rest) for the shield spell instead of your paladin slots.
Otherwise a one level dip in sorcerer works well for some other ranged cantrips, absorb elements and the shield spell and you wont fall behind on your spellcasting level.
Good rolls. I have similar. Level 3 Paladin: 17STR 15Dex 12Con 9Int 15Wis 16Cha.
Also thinking of staying Paladin until Level 6 for the aura as a team player. I've reached Level 3 Vengeance and am not sure about tactics. I rolled 16 Charisma but only 15 Dexterity so I think two weapons are out for me. The path will be either sword and board or two handed. Pole Arm Master seems to be nerfed now but I am thinking about a Great-Axe with the Cleave Property to hit a second enemy as part of the weapon instead of bonus action. If I combine that with the Sentinel feat for an opportunity attack (hopefully often) then I might get to hit a lot more often.
Currently I walk forward to hold the line along with a Barbarian but without armour he sometimes falls back from damage leaving my Paladin to stop the minions from reaching him & Warlock & Druid & Cleric....This is why I currently need a shield (also low CON) but at higher levels maybe this build will work?
Also, should I do Ability Score Improvements first before getting Feats or the other way round?
'Level 3 Paladin: 17STR 15Dex 12Con 9Int 15Wis 16Cha ... should I do Ability Score Improvements first before getting Feats or the other way round?' - My bias is towards ability increases, but its whatever plays fun for you. So I would look for one of the feats that gives a +1 to strength and some other useful ability, for your level 4, then at level 8 max Strength, then at level 12 start improving Charisma (or Constitution). But that's just me, and the below are just examples; find one that the extra ability fits your theme.
- Option A, Sentinel - +1 str and you stop/punish the enemy minions attacking your back rank; might fit with your shield-wall hold-the-line theme.
- Option B, Dual Wielder 2024 - +1 Str then remind yourself that light/finesse weapons can attack with strength not just dexterity; as you seemed to regret that "two weapons are out for me". - ('Ignore' Dex even if you're in a sneaky party because w/ Dex=14+ as you have you're just as sneaky & protected in a chain shirt as you are until Dex=18 with studded leather. And by Dex=18 you can probably afford a breastplate which gives the same benefit and gold is usually cheaper than the ASI/Feats to get to Dex=18.)
So your best ASI order for this paladin looks like Str+1, Str+2, then Cha+2 or Con+2. But do whatever feels fun/thematic to you.
'Level 3 Paladin: 17STR 15Dex 12Con 9Int 15Wis 16Cha ... should I do Ability Score Improvements first before getting Feats or the other way round?' - My bias is towards ability increases, but its whatever plays fun for you. So I would look for one of the feats that gives a +1 to strength and some other useful ability, for your level 4, then at level 8 max Strength, then at level 12 start improving Charisma (or Constitution). But that's just me, and the below are just examples; find one that the extra ability fits your theme.
- Option A, Sentinel - +1 str and you stop/punish the enemy minions attacking your back rank; might fit with your shield-wall hold-the-line theme.
- Option B, Dual Wielder 2024 - +1 Str then remind yourself that light/finesse weapons can attack with strength not just dexterity; as you seemed to regret that "two weapons are out for me". - ('Ignore' Dex even if you're in a sneaky party because w/ Dex=14+ as you have you're just as sneaky & protected in a chain shirt as you are until Dex=18 with studded leather. And by Dex=18 you can probably afford a breastplate which gives the same benefit and gold is usually cheaper than the ASI/Feats to get to Dex=18.)
So your best ASI order for this paladin looks like Str+1, Str+2, then Cha+2 or Con+2. But do whatever feels fun/thematic to you.
both look good. remember the bonus action attack from duel wielder feat conflicts with divine smite which is also now a bonus action. if you like smiting there will be some conflict. if you like casting spells then dual wielder can be better as it will save your spells slots for things other than smite. i would probably swap wisdom and constitution scores. 12 con seems a bit low for a melee character and paladins get proficiency in wisdom saves so it does not need to be that high. if you have 15 con there are some good feats to give you +1 con to bump it to 16. the resilient feat comes to mind, or crusher if you are going with quarterstaff.
"the bonus action attack from duel wielder conflicts with divine smite which is also now a bonus action" - True. But, a Scimitar's 'nick' property makes the dual wield 2nd attack part of the attack action and not a bonus action. So, if paladin two-weapon, get scimitar as one of your weapon masteries at level 1.
"the bonus action attack from duel wielder conflicts with divine smite which is also now a bonus action" - True. But, a Scimitar's 'nick' property makes the dual wield 2nd attack part of the attack action and not a bonus action. So, if paladin two-weapon, get scimitar as one of your weapon masteries at level 1.
Yes nick mastery turns your bonus action attack into part of the attack action.
The Dual Weilder Feat gives you an additional attack whick i think has to be a bonus action.
I could be wrong but thats my best understanding at the moment.
If nick mastery also turns the bonus action attack from Dual Weilder Feat into part of the same attack action, that would be fantastic, but i dont think it does as nick specifies a limit of once per turn.
Nick property frees up your bonus action. Dual Wielder allows you to use it for a new attack again. It stacks. So, a level 6 paladin with multi attack and the dual wielder feat could attack twice with their action using their primary light weapon, once with their scimitar as part of their action due to the nick property, and once as a bonus action with either of the two weapons being held for a total of 4 swings.
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re: Number of attacks with Nick & Dual Wielder - I hope you're right but I always read it as Dual Wielder just being the same single 'off hand attack' as the light weapon confers. - But we're not the first to have this debate. There's at least two threads over in the Rules & Game Mechanics discussion board on this. The rules wordings are not unambiguously clear. Below is my logic chain. But the best reference is a D&D Beyond post on Weapon Masteries. (Scroll to the Nick section, can't deep-link, sorry. And the Nick debate starts in the discussion section so I don't claim this article is definitive. :-)
Attack Action - Make one attack - Paladin levels 1-4 you get one attack action making one attack, paladin level 5 you get Extra Attack which modifies the attack action so that while you still get one attack action you now make two attacks as part of each attack action.
Anyone can hold a one-handed weapon in each hand. If you hold a long-sword in each hand you can make one attack with one of those swords at levels 1-4, at level 5+ you can make two attacks. This is (probably) regardless of which sword you use for either attack, but lets keep it simple and say that your left hand is your 'main' hand and so you make your level 1-4 attack with your left hand, and then at level 5+ you make your bonus attack also with your left hand. Your right hand (or 'off' hand) is still just holding the long-sword that you can't attack with.
If you hold a short-sword in each hand, however, the Light property of the swords comes into effect and you can make one additional attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. So, level 1-4, attack with short-sword in left/main hand, then Bonus Action attack with the short-sword in your right/off hand. Level 5+, attack with the left/main hand, Bonus Action attack with the right/off hand, then Extra Attack once again with the left/main hand.
But if at Level 4 I take the Dual Wielder (2024) Feat - Attack with a light weapon and you can make one extra attack with a different weapon as a Bonus Action (but it just has to be a one-handed weapon not a Light weapon). - To me this reads as your same single Bonus action two-weapon-fighting attack but it no longer has to a be a light weapon. So if I have a short-sword in my main hand I can now use a long-sword in my off hand. So attack with short-sword in left/main hand, then Bonus Action attack with the long-sword in your right/off hand.
If I swap those short-swords for scimitars (and I have weapon mastery: scimitar) the scimitar is a light weapon with the Nick property so I now apply Nick to my attacks. Which is that when I make the additional attack that the Light weapon property bestows it is made as part of the attack action and not as a bonus action. (So the Light weapon additional attack becomes a free action.) So, level 1-3, main hand attack, off hand attack, both as part of the attack action, with my bonus action still remaining to use (for smite). Then level 4 Dual Wielder (2024) and I replace my right-hand scimitar for a long-sword. Attack with the scimitar in my left/main hand, then attack with the long-sword in the right hand as part of the same attack action, and have my Bonus Action free to smite.
However, if I have a scimitar in my left hand and a short-sword in my right hand, I do not get to stack the additional (light weapon) attacks. - Scimitar attack, which triggers the scimitar's Light and Nick properties to let me make the short-sword attack as a 'free' action, then use the Light property of the short sword attack to trigger a Bonus Action attack with the scimitar. - Though I still have a Bonus Action slot I could possibly use for something I already used up my one Light weapon property additional attack for my round, just as a free action and not a bonus action.
But this is one of those where we can probably argue ourselves around in circles so must fall back on the ultimate rule: ask your DM how they want to rule it for your game.
Suggestions on paladin 2024 build
Yuan-ti Pureblood Paladin, Level 1
Magic Initiate: Shillelagh, Magic Stone, and Goodberry
STR: 17 (+1), DEX: 17 (+1), CON: 17 (+1), INT: 15, WIS: 10, CHA: 18
I rolled very well on my stats, so I’m not sure if I should go two-handed, sword-and-board, or dual-wielding. Right now, since I’m such a low level, I plan to use a shield until Tier 2 when I can get better armor.
I was thinking of going to Level 6 in Paladin for the aura, but I’m not sure where to go after that.
The group includes a monk, ranger, and cleric.
A Whisper Bard could be a good choice for the added melee damage. Two levels of Warlock would give me a familiar and Eldritch Blast. Is there anything else I should consider? Thanks for reading my post!
Well, dual wielding is a problem if you plan to cast spells, as you’ll need a free hand for many of them. Sword and board, you can always take warcaster, with that party composition, I’d actually consider sword and board, as you’ll want someone kind of tanky. But as always the choice come down to more damage (2-handing) vs AC (sword and board).
I’d not take shilleleigh unless you know it’s a low magic campaign. It will be fine until you find a +1 weapon, then it will be useless.
After level 6 paladin, I’d probably go level 7 paladin. Pallys get good stuff, I wouldn’t want to miss the higher level options.
I disagree on dropping Shilleleigh. In the 2024 version of the spell, it comes with a bunch of benefits:
1) You can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls, allowing this paladin to be more SAD with Charisma if wanted
2) It lets you deal Force damage instead of the weapon's normal damage, so it will be able to "overcome" resistances to bludgeoning damage
3) The damage increases with cantrip level tiers. Right off the bat you could already be dealing 1d8 damage holding a quarterstaff in only one hand. By level 5, this paladin could be dealing a d10 damage and later at level 11 or 17, the quarterstaff will be dealing the same damage as a great weapon. This could work well for "sword and board" without dropping damage from using a versatile weapon with one hand.
4) Theres no restriction saying you can only cast it targeting a nonmagical Club or Quarterstaff, so if they later find a +1 Club or +1 Quarterstaff, they still can use Shilleleigh to boost it further.
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I would recommend against dual-wielding. I assume with your choice of Shilleleigh as a cantrip you want to use Clubs, but the spell takes a bonus action to cast, so would require multiple rounds of setup to use in combat for two weapons. I think the best route would be either just using the quarterstaff on its own or quarterstaff + shield, but as Xalthu pointed out you may want to wait until you have Warcaster for the latter
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With those stats you cant go wrong. If you have shillelagh you may as well go sword and board. The topple mastery on quaterstaffs is great.
Paladins are not great at ranged attacks so warlock for EB makes sense. If you can make hexblade dip work, do that. Adding the shield spell to your list is amazing for extra tankyness. You wont likely have much else to do with your reaction and you can use the warlock spell slots (that reset on a short rest) for the shield spell instead of your paladin slots.
Otherwise a one level dip in sorcerer works well for some other ranged cantrips, absorb elements and the shield spell and you wont fall behind on your spellcasting level.
Good rolls. I have similar. Level 3 Paladin: 17STR 15Dex 12Con 9Int 15Wis 16Cha.
Also thinking of staying Paladin until Level 6 for the aura as a team player. I've reached Level 3 Vengeance and am not sure about tactics. I rolled 16 Charisma but only 15 Dexterity so I think two weapons are out for me. The path will be either sword and board or two handed. Pole Arm Master seems to be nerfed now but I am thinking about a Great-Axe with the Cleave Property to hit a second enemy as part of the weapon instead of bonus action. If I combine that with the Sentinel feat for an opportunity attack (hopefully often) then I might get to hit a lot more often.
Currently I walk forward to hold the line along with a Barbarian but without armour he sometimes falls back from damage leaving my Paladin to stop the minions from reaching him & Warlock & Druid & Cleric....This is why I currently need a shield (also low CON) but at higher levels maybe this build will work?
Also, should I do Ability Score Improvements first before getting Feats or the other way round?
'Level 3 Paladin: 17STR 15Dex 12Con 9Int 15Wis 16Cha ... should I do Ability Score Improvements first before getting Feats or the other way round?' - My bias is towards ability increases, but its whatever plays fun for you. So I would look for one of the feats that gives a +1 to strength and some other useful ability, for your level 4, then at level 8 max Strength, then at level 12 start improving Charisma (or Constitution). But that's just me, and the below are just examples; find one that the extra ability fits your theme.
- Option A, Sentinel - +1 str and you stop/punish the enemy minions attacking your back rank; might fit with your shield-wall hold-the-line theme.
- Option B, Dual Wielder 2024 - +1 Str then remind yourself that light/finesse weapons can attack with strength not just dexterity; as you seemed to regret that "two weapons are out for me". - ('Ignore' Dex even if you're in a sneaky party because w/ Dex=14+ as you have you're just as sneaky & protected in a chain shirt as you are until Dex=18 with studded leather. And by Dex=18 you can probably afford a breastplate which gives the same benefit and gold is usually cheaper than the ASI/Feats to get to Dex=18.)
So your best ASI order for this paladin looks like Str+1, Str+2, then Cha+2 or Con+2. But do whatever feels fun/thematic to you.
both look good. remember the bonus action attack from duel wielder feat conflicts with divine smite which is also now a bonus action. if you like smiting there will be some conflict. if you like casting spells then dual wielder can be better as it will save your spells slots for things other than smite. i would probably swap wisdom and constitution scores. 12 con seems a bit low for a melee character and paladins get proficiency in wisdom saves so it does not need to be that high. if you have 15 con there are some good feats to give you +1 con to bump it to 16. the resilient feat comes to mind, or crusher if you are going with quarterstaff.
Thank you, I did not realise you could go two handed using Strength.
Thanks. I do want to play a more varied game than just smiting everything and with 2024 rules it looks like WOTC are pushing paladins that way anyway.
"the bonus action attack from duel wielder conflicts with divine smite which is also now a bonus action" - True. But, a Scimitar's 'nick' property makes the dual wield 2nd attack part of the attack action and not a bonus action. So, if paladin two-weapon, get scimitar as one of your weapon masteries at level 1.
Yes nick mastery turns your bonus action attack into part of the attack action.
The Dual Weilder Feat gives you an additional attack whick i think has to be a bonus action.
I could be wrong but thats my best understanding at the moment.
If nick mastery also turns the bonus action attack from Dual Weilder Feat into part of the same attack action, that would be fantastic, but i dont think it does as nick specifies a limit of once per turn.
^^
Nick property frees up your bonus action. Dual Wielder allows you to use it for a new attack again. It stacks. So, a level 6 paladin with multi attack and the dual wielder feat could attack twice with their action using their primary light weapon, once with their scimitar as part of their action due to the nick property, and once as a bonus action with either of the two weapons being held for a total of 4 swings.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
re: Number of attacks with Nick & Dual Wielder - I hope you're right but I always read it as Dual Wielder just being the same single 'off hand attack' as the light weapon confers. - But we're not the first to have this debate. There's at least two threads over in the Rules & Game Mechanics discussion board on this. The rules wordings are not unambiguously clear. Below is my logic chain. But the best reference is a D&D Beyond post on Weapon Masteries. (Scroll to the Nick section, can't deep-link, sorry. And the Nick debate starts in the discussion section so I don't claim this article is definitive. :-)
Attack Action - Make one attack - Paladin levels 1-4 you get one attack action making one attack, paladin level 5 you get Extra Attack which modifies the attack action so that while you still get one attack action you now make two attacks as part of each attack action.
Anyone can hold a one-handed weapon in each hand. If you hold a long-sword in each hand you can make one attack with one of those swords at levels 1-4, at level 5+ you can make two attacks. This is (probably) regardless of which sword you use for either attack, but lets keep it simple and say that your left hand is your 'main' hand and so you make your level 1-4 attack with your left hand, and then at level 5+ you make your bonus attack also with your left hand. Your right hand (or 'off' hand) is still just holding the long-sword that you can't attack with.
If you hold a short-sword in each hand, however, the Light property of the swords comes into effect and you can make one additional attack with a different Light weapon as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. So, level 1-4, attack with short-sword in left/main hand, then Bonus Action attack with the short-sword in your right/off hand. Level 5+, attack with the left/main hand, Bonus Action attack with the right/off hand, then Extra Attack once again with the left/main hand.
But if at Level 4 I take the Dual Wielder (2024) Feat - Attack with a light weapon and you can make one extra attack with a different weapon as a Bonus Action (but it just has to be a one-handed weapon not a Light weapon). - To me this reads as your same single Bonus action two-weapon-fighting attack but it no longer has to a be a light weapon. So if I have a short-sword in my main hand I can now use a long-sword in my off hand. So attack with short-sword in left/main hand, then Bonus Action attack with the long-sword in your right/off hand.
If I swap those short-swords for scimitars (and I have weapon mastery: scimitar) the scimitar is a light weapon with the Nick property so I now apply Nick to my attacks. Which is that when I make the additional attack that the Light weapon property bestows it is made as part of the attack action and not as a bonus action. (So the Light weapon additional attack becomes a free action.) So, level 1-3, main hand attack, off hand attack, both as part of the attack action, with my bonus action still remaining to use (for smite). Then level 4 Dual Wielder (2024) and I replace my right-hand scimitar for a long-sword. Attack with the scimitar in my left/main hand, then attack with the long-sword in the right hand as part of the same attack action, and have my Bonus Action free to smite.
However, if I have a scimitar in my left hand and a short-sword in my right hand, I do not get to stack the additional (light weapon) attacks. - Scimitar attack, which triggers the scimitar's Light and Nick properties to let me make the short-sword attack as a 'free' action, then use the Light property of the short sword attack to trigger a Bonus Action attack with the scimitar. - Though I still have a Bonus Action slot I could possibly use for something I already used up my one Light weapon property additional attack for my round, just as a free action and not a bonus action.
But this is one of those where we can probably argue ourselves around in circles so must fall back on the ultimate rule: ask your DM how they want to rule it for your game.