I have a similar situation with the Forge domain cleric in our party. He wields two weapons and when he casts, it's really not that big a deal because of his one free object interaction.
If he has two weapons wielded and he wants to cast a spell, he just stows (sheathes?) his hammer as the free object interaction and casts his spell with the one free hand. If he wants to duel wield again next round, he uses his one free object interaction to wield the second weapon and then attack with both. The same would be true with a weapon and shield combo, right? And if my understanding about holy symbol as a casting focus is correct, it can be on his helmet, his breastplate, or a medallion around his next. It just has to be presentable and visible to the target in order to work as a focus.
Yes, VS spells are not an issue for clerics, really. I use the sheath/stow ineraction to cast VS spells and then unsheath on my next turn. It just takes a little foresight regarding your action economy. Although, if you sheath your sword you cannot take opportunity attacks. Our DM rarely gives our party an OA though.
Right now, the only issue I've encountered with VS Spells and Sword and Board fighting is the reaction spell Shield. You cannot sheath/stow on a reaction thus I do not have a hand free. I've seen people suggest dropping your weapon as a "free action" and then using your object interaction to pick it up on your next turn. I wonder how others w/o warcaster have dealt with this issue...
Do people generally follow the rule that somehow a spell that only has V + S components is somehow harder to cast than one that has V,S + M components? I ignore it, personally. Plus, other than opportunity attacks, the rule has no mechanical effect anyway given that drawing and sheathing are free actions.
Like many things Verbal Somatic and Material requirements are either ignored or ruthlessly enforced at many tables with little inbetween. For components the pieces needed can usually be manipulated in the hand that casts (I assume when you first learn your using two hands and work your way down to how to cast quickly in combat under pressure - but that R.P.) Now if one of those components requires "10lbs of mcguffinite" lifting that in one hand if you have an average to 'usual' subpar caster strength is unlikely on its own let alone casting it - but again that could be considered 'R.P.'
Only consumed components are needed to be carried now and I would ask the thoughtful mages how they prepare their components in their component pouch before hand, do they:
Colour code wax balls sealing their components into finger breakable pieces so they can be ready in a second? (for example)
If they arent thinking about the mechanics of their characters equipment at all, I just let it pass, to do otherwise is to complicate and slow the session down at best.
If components arent consumable an appropriate focus item can replace all components and this is wonderfully new to my 5th ed experience, Their are a variety of arcane foci listed. Most interestingly is a wand, to which I give thanks to J. K. Rowling. But going back to Flash Gordon (the movie with a soundtrack by queen) Ming the Merciless ring as a magic focus? Perfect. Either will reduce difficulties with carrying and manipulating 25 prepared spells worth of components.
Don’t mean to revive an old thread, but was looking for answer for this also. After I saw this thread, I found an even older tweet from Jeremy Crawford, in which he states pretty clearly that the paladin/cleric’s shield CAN be used to perform both the S and M components, as long as both are required, exactly as GhastlyOrphans said in his last reply on this thread. (Sage Advice 09/04/2014-09/05/2014 and 11/24/2014-11/25/2014)
OK - so Paladins will a Holy Symbol on a shield do not need a free hand for V,S,M spells but do need a free hand for V and S spells:
In the description of material components it says that the same hand that is used for material components can be used for somatic. In the same section, it also says a focus can be used in place for material components (that aren't consumed or have a listed value). In the description for holy symbol (equipment section of the book) it says that the shield emblazoned with a holy symbol acts as a focus for Clerics and Paladins.
Therefore, if a Cleric or Paladin has a shield emblazoned with their holy symbol and the spell has material components, then they can cast that spell with impunity without a free hand. If that spell also has Somatic components along with those material, it also can be cast with impunity (same hand rule from material components).
The only spells they have problems casting in such a case are ones with Somatic, but no material. A focus is of no use for those spells. These spells require a free hand.
This is incorrect.
You can replace the material components (m) with a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol, NOT the somatic hand signal omponents (s).
The "hand rule" you are referring to states you can use THE SAME hand you use for material components for your somatic components. But you are not using a hand, are you? That handis now occupied with holding the shield. A shield that only allows you to replace material components. You still need a hand for your somatic components..
Nice try, but no dice.
If you want to use weapon, shield and vsm/vs/sm/s spells at the same time you will have to have both a shield with symbol AND the warcaster feat.
OK - so Paladins will a Holy Symbol on a shield do not need a free hand for V,S,M spells but do need a free hand for V and S spells:
In the description of material components it says that the same hand that is used for material components can be used for somatic. In the same section, it also says a focus can be used in place for material components (that aren't consumed or have a listed value). In the description for holy symbol (equipment section of the book) it says that the shield emblazoned with a holy symbol acts as a focus for Clerics and Paladins.
Therefore, if a Cleric or Paladin has a shield emblazoned with their holy symbol and the spell has material components, then they can cast that spell with impunity without a free hand. If that spell also has Somatic components along with those material, it also can be cast with impunity (same hand rule from material components).
The only spells they have problems casting in such a case are ones with Somatic, but no material. A focus is of no use for those spells. These spells require a free hand.
This is incorrect.
You can replace the material components (m) with a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol, NOT the somatic hand signal omponents (s).
The "hand rule" you are referring to states you can use THE SAME hand you use for material components for your somatic components. But you are not using a hand, are you? That handis now occupied with holding the shield. A shield that only allows you to replace material components. You still need a hand for your somatic components..
Nice try, but no dice.
If you want to use weapon, shield and vsm/vs/sm/s spells at the same time you will have to have both a shield with symbol AND the warcaster feat.
Regardless of the ruling, this is faulty logic. If you're claiming that the hand you hold the shield with is 'occupied' because it's holding a shield, that would be the same for any other spellcaster holding a focus, and that is in direct conflict with the laid out ruling about being able to use the same hand that holds the focus.
RAW: 1) You can use a holy symbol emblazoned on your shield as a focus 2) You can use a hand holding a focus (in this case a shield with the holy symbol on it) for the somatic components of the spell.
I don't understand how people got to the logical conclusion that this doesn't work for VS spells though. It's like saying. If I'm able to go through the motions of opening a door (somatic) with my hand while I'm carrying a glass of water (material) in it, somehow I can't open that door if I put the glass down. That's silly. If I can do the somatic components of a spell that requires materials, I can do the somatic components of the spell regardless. We know that a focus only replaces the material components, not the somatic components. We know that the somatic components can be done while holding a focus.
MOST IMPORTANT: If it's a cleric/paladin, it's meant to be a melee spell caster. How much fun is your player going to have constantly having to remember to find loop holes to do the thing their class was meant to do? How much fun is it going to be for anyone when they forget to say for the thousands time that they drop/stow/whatever in order to cast a spell, and you get to 'catch' them? (That's actually only fun for DMs that want to prove that they're "smarter" then their players, and those DMs are no fun in general).
Is Sorcadin the accepted name of Sorcerer-Paladins? I'm genuinely asking, I've never seen that term used before. Since Ghastly mentioned arcane focuses it reminded me of this one item called the Ruby of the War Mage. Lets you glue a gem to an item and turn it into an arcane focus that can't be undone unless the weapon itself has been destroyed or you unattune to the gem.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
OK - so Paladins will a Holy Symbol on a shield do not need a free hand for V,S,M spells but do need a free hand for V and S spells:
In the description of material components it says that the same hand that is used for material components can be used for somatic. In the same section, it also says a focus can be used in place for material components (that aren't consumed or have a listed value). In the description for holy symbol (equipment section of the book) it says that the shield emblazoned with a holy symbol acts as a focus for Clerics and Paladins.
Therefore, if a Cleric or Paladin has a shield emblazoned with their holy symbol and the spell has material components, then they can cast that spell with impunity without a free hand. If that spell also has Somatic components along with those material, it also can be cast with impunity (same hand rule from material components).
The only spells they have problems casting in such a case are ones with Somatic, but no material. A focus is of no use for those spells. These spells require a free hand.
This is incorrect.
You can replace the material components (m) with a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol, NOT the somatic hand signal omponents (s).
The "hand rule" you are referring to states you can use THE SAME hand you use for material components for your somatic components. But you are not using a hand, are you? That handis now occupied with holding the shield. A shield that only allows you to replace material components. You still need a hand for your somatic components..
Nice try, but no dice.
If you want to use weapon, shield and vsm/vs/sm/s spells at the same time you will have to have both a shield with symbol AND the warcaster feat.
You're directly contradicting the SAC at this point, and the SAC is RAW. Copied and pasted from this very website:
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Given that Shield of Faith has a material component, you don't even need to do that. An emblem can be placed on a shield, allowing the shield to serve as a focus for clerics and paladins, thus covering you for any spell with an M component. Now, if you wanted to cast a spell such as Cure Wounds, War Caster allows you to keep your weapon in hand to make attacks of opportunity or any other off-turn reaction that requires you to use your weapon, or if you have a weapon that has a property that's active when drawn, such as a Holy Avenger, it allows you to avoid having to drop that effect for a turn. Really, the part about being able to do Somatic with your hands full is rather niche, but it's also more a ribbon feature on the feat than the big selling point.
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I have a similar situation with the Forge domain cleric in our party. He wields two weapons and when he casts, it's really not that big a deal because of his one free object interaction.
If he has two weapons wielded and he wants to cast a spell, he just stows (sheathes?) his hammer as the free object interaction and casts his spell with the one free hand. If he wants to duel wield again next round, he uses his one free object interaction to wield the second weapon and then attack with both. The same would be true with a weapon and shield combo, right? And if my understanding about holy symbol as a casting focus is correct, it can be on his helmet, his breastplate, or a medallion around his next. It just has to be presentable and visible to the target in order to work as a focus.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, VS spells are not an issue for clerics, really. I use the sheath/stow ineraction to cast VS spells and then unsheath on my next turn. It just takes a little foresight regarding your action economy. Although, if you sheath your sword you cannot take opportunity attacks. Our DM rarely gives our party an OA though.
Right now, the only issue I've encountered with VS Spells and Sword and Board fighting is the reaction spell Shield. You cannot sheath/stow on a reaction thus I do not have a hand free. I've seen people suggest dropping your weapon as a "free action" and then using your object interaction to pick it up on your next turn. I wonder how others w/o warcaster have dealt with this issue...
Do people generally follow the rule that somehow a spell that only has V + S components is somehow harder to cast than one that has V,S + M components? I ignore it, personally. Plus, other than opportunity attacks, the rule has no mechanical effect anyway given that drawing and sheathing are free actions.
Like many things Verbal Somatic and Material requirements are either ignored or ruthlessly enforced at many tables with little inbetween. For components the pieces needed can usually be manipulated in the hand that casts (I assume when you first learn your using two hands and work your way down to how to cast quickly in combat under pressure - but that R.P.) Now if one of those components requires "10lbs of mcguffinite" lifting that in one hand if you have an average to 'usual' subpar caster strength is unlikely on its own let alone casting it - but again that could be considered 'R.P.'
Only consumed components are needed to be carried now and I would ask the thoughtful mages how they prepare their components in their component pouch before hand, do they:
Colour code wax balls sealing their components into finger breakable pieces so they can be ready in a second? (for example)
If they arent thinking about the mechanics of their characters equipment at all, I just let it pass, to do otherwise is to complicate and slow the session down at best.
If components arent consumable an appropriate focus item can replace all components and this is wonderfully new to my 5th ed experience, Their are a variety of arcane foci listed. Most interestingly is a wand, to which I give thanks to J. K. Rowling. But going back to Flash Gordon (the movie with a soundtrack by queen) Ming the Merciless ring as a magic focus? Perfect. Either will reduce difficulties with carrying and manipulating 25 prepared spells worth of components.
Don’t mean to revive an old thread, but was looking for answer for this also. After I saw this thread, I found an even older tweet from Jeremy Crawford, in which he states pretty clearly that the paladin/cleric’s shield CAN be used to perform both the S and M components, as long as both are required, exactly as GhastlyOrphans said in his last reply on this thread.
(Sage Advice 09/04/2014-09/05/2014 and 11/24/2014-11/25/2014)
Thank you
Dont know how to remove this..
This is incorrect.
You can replace the material components (m) with a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol, NOT the somatic hand signal omponents (s).
The "hand rule" you are referring to states you can use THE SAME hand you use for material components for your somatic components. But you are not using a hand, are you? That handis now occupied with holding the shield. A shield that only allows you to replace material components. You still need a hand for your somatic components..
Nice try, but no dice.
If you want to use weapon, shield and vsm/vs/sm/s spells at the same time you will have to have both a shield with symbol AND the warcaster feat.
didn't quote properly, see below
Regardless of the ruling, this is faulty logic. If you're claiming that the hand you hold the shield with is 'occupied' because it's holding a shield, that would be the same for any other spellcaster holding a focus, and that is in direct conflict with the laid out ruling about being able to use the same hand that holds the focus.
RAW: 1) You can use a holy symbol emblazoned on your shield as a focus 2) You can use a hand holding a focus (in this case a shield with the holy symbol on it) for the somatic components of the spell.
I don't understand how people got to the logical conclusion that this doesn't work for VS spells though. It's like saying. If I'm able to go through the motions of opening a door (somatic) with my hand while I'm carrying a glass of water (material) in it, somehow I can't open that door if I put the glass down. That's silly. If I can do the somatic components of a spell that requires materials, I can do the somatic components of the spell regardless. We know that a focus only replaces the material components, not the somatic components. We know that the somatic components can be done while holding a focus.
MOST IMPORTANT: If it's a cleric/paladin, it's meant to be a melee spell caster. How much fun is your player going to have constantly having to remember to find loop holes to do the thing their class was meant to do? How much fun is it going to be for anyone when they forget to say for the thousands time that they drop/stow/whatever in order to cast a spell, and you get to 'catch' them? (That's actually only fun for DMs that want to prove that they're "smarter" then their players, and those DMs are no fun in general).
Is Sorcadin the accepted name of Sorcerer-Paladins? I'm genuinely asking, I've never seen that term used before. Since Ghastly mentioned arcane focuses it reminded me of this one item called the Ruby of the War Mage. Lets you glue a gem to an item and turn it into an arcane focus that can't be undone unless the weapon itself has been destroyed or you unattune to the gem.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
You're directly contradicting the SAC at this point, and the SAC is RAW. Copied and pasted from this very website:
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Sheathing your sword uses your object interaction.
I am confused annoyed.
INTERACTING WITH OBJECTS AROUND YOU
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
....
So this means my players can Draw or Sheath a weapon pr turn.
But that also means that my paladin can
Then on coming turn he can reverse the order.
So my question annoying point is... What does war caster feat actually do in this regard...
Given that Shield of Faith has a material component, you don't even need to do that. An emblem can be placed on a shield, allowing the shield to serve as a focus for clerics and paladins, thus covering you for any spell with an M component. Now, if you wanted to cast a spell such as Cure Wounds, War Caster allows you to keep your weapon in hand to make attacks of opportunity or any other off-turn reaction that requires you to use your weapon, or if you have a weapon that has a property that's active when drawn, such as a Holy Avenger, it allows you to avoid having to drop that effect for a turn. Really, the part about being able to do Somatic with your hands full is rather niche, but it's also more a ribbon feature on the feat than the big selling point.