I just rolled a revisedspell-less ranger (Deep Stalker) for Out of the abyss. Overall i think it will be a fun build for the campaign.
I was curious to find out if anyone else had ideas on replacing a few of the abilities that would make it feel more martial as the spell less option was intended
Examples:
Call Natural Allies seems a bit clunky - I would much rather see some other utility or Superiority Dice increased in die size
Deep Stalker Magic - What would be the recommended replacement here?
This is an idea I've toyed around with. A friend of mine has switched from Pathfinder to D&D and has had trouble translating her old ranger. I have no revolutionary suggestion for edits at the moment, though...I'll post if something comes to mind! One of the NPC heroes I've built is a little like this idea. He's a hill dwarf ranger (surprisingly powerful). He's not very comfortable with magic and never wants to fool with anything magical personally, yet (as a D&D ranger) he has those spell slots. So I've decided that he unconsciously uses spells, attributing them to luck or skill. Currently he doesn't use any flashy spells (just things like jump, longstrider, and hunter's mark), but as his levels progress he may have to come to terms with his true talents.
Im trying to balance replacing of the Archetype spells as well to make this character completely spell less. Adding more Superiority dice sounds like the way to go, but also looking to more customer maneuvers that you spend a die to do something a spell would normally do. Ill let you know what i come up with. Thanks for the feedback @Kings_Arsenal
Just a question, if you don't want spells why play a ranger? I mean what is left that is unique to a ranger that isn't duplicated in the fighter class?
I think the same question can be asked for any hybrid class when it comes to replacing abilities. I believe the revised ranger does a pretty nice job overall with the class. I am just looking to replace spell casting with a different and albeit simpler mechanic.
My personal taste for the ranger is to have one without having to maintain some spell and having to use hunter's mark for damage. It is a little too mmo to me and i am looking for something slightly more streamlined. I also feel the Ranger class should "just do" some of these spell like things just tied to a different resource. Hence the maneuvers fit in nicely. The call nature's allies is more "druidy" and i think could be supplemented with something different, not necessarily something out of fighter. Tweaking a natural ability from Druid seems to be an interesting way to go. I am not yet 3rd level and have already made the choice to go Hunter conclave rather than the Underdark Scout to avoid any additional magic abilities. It also seems a better overall fit, for my playstyle, which is really what it comes down and what fits into the campaign.
Balancing additional custom maneuvers is something i have been researching but still working out for the OOTA game i am in. The concept of the character is that he has been captured by Drow from his woodland home. Being severed from his magical ties to the forest his talents are beginning to manifest differently based on the cruel environment of the Underdark.
Hopefully this explains to somewhat where I am looking for ideas, and I appreciate the question and feedback.
Spells are kind of an innate part of the Ranger class, not having them is like a paladin not having spells. It's easier and more fluff accurate to turn a fighter or rogue into a spell-less ranger than it is to remove the spells from a ranger. The rogue scout UA, for instance, is actually really good.
I don't know if you were looking at the Unearthed Arcana article Mike Mearls wrote in Sep 2015 as an attempt to revise the Ranger class.
My wife really liked this and fleshed out some ideas on DnD Wiki calling it a Spirit Ranger. If you get a chance to look at it, I would be very interested in any feedback.
@KennerHugh I like what your wife fleshed out. Overall feedback was that there are a ton of abilities that you have available for your Spirit Ranger. After playing it have you felt that it could be streamlined more? I believe it is a lot to review all of the spells available and to keep track of.
I think most of the powers looked like they made sense and were inline with the concept. Nice to see such creativity!
To approximate the ranger's healing spells w/o magic, I'd give the un-spelled ranger the Healer feat and Herbalism kit proficiency as class features. Hunters Mark would also become a class feature. After that, I would pull from 3.5 Deepwood Stalker prestige class, which featured some maneuver-like abilities not based on magic. Like Called Shot, which increased your to-hit and crit range. Or Head Shot, which increased your damage. These are geard toward archery, but I believe there were melee options, as well.
Think of Aragorn from LotR for inspiration. Good at both ranged and melee combat. Some skill with basic field medicine and knowledge of plants and herbs. Adept at stealth and tracking and hunting. No real magic (well, until that whole undead army thing. But even then, HE wasn't magical.)
You could play around with Drizzt's "Hunter" state. Like Barbarian Rage but make tweaks to suit Ranger stealth & skirmish with risk of mental harm if you stay in the state for too long. From the Forgotten Realms wiki, "When Drizzt was the Hunter, he reached his physical apex, his skills honed to their utmost peak. His scimitars were like extensions of his own arms, and his senses were heightened beyond their normal capacity."
You could try a Ranger point pool system (i.e Ki, Sorcery Points). Spend a few points to bonus action target a creature + add 1d6 damage on a hit + advantage on Perception + Survival checks for 1 hour.
You could expand on Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer by adding features at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. You could add extra skill proficiencies through Survivalist feature. Basic animal communication ability as seen in the UA Revised Ranger Primeval Awareness feature, except move it to a different level.
Replacing magic is difficult to do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Thanks @Domcarlina and all for the feedback. I do like your suggestions, and definitely would be fun to try in a homebrew campaign. You are completely correct, replacing magic is tough to balance.
My current status is I am level 5, in Out of the abyss, running the revisedspell-less Ranger with Hunter Conclave. I believe the class is currently well balanced. Here are a few thoughts I have so far:
GM and I decide on a case by case basis on how Primeval Awareness functions in the Underdark as my character grows in power. I think limiting this power is necessary otherwise it basically becomes radar for me, which i dont want.
I dont feel like I am missing out on damage or utility for the most part (partly because I am wielding Dawnbringer ) I believe having Combat Superiority dice refreshing on a short rest gives me plenty of flexibility in what I do in each encounter.
Maneuvers I am running are Parry, Riposte, and Menacing Strike
Level 9 I am going to request for my combat superiority die to move to 1d10.
I have been researching an appropriate replacement for CALL NATURAL ALLIES at level 13, which is basically Conjure Animals without the Concentrate requirement. As I noted above this doesnt fit my characters style or current situation in the Underdark.
I have considered replacing it with Druid 2nd Spell Enhance Ability. But have second thoughts since the DM's guide does warn against introducing spells without Concentrate due to balance issues. Again, working with my DM we will come to a good balance when the time comes.
So like I said, things are going well with my current build. It is nice to hear everyone's ideas. I do hope to see what the D&D team comes up with in their next Ranger content release. I have seen some info talked about in other threads that they may introduce something similar to what I am doing in swapping out Class features to suit the player's taste.
No problem. Also check out my thread, "How Would You Re-Design The Ranger" for other inspration. I focused on keeping the spells for the Ranger while modifying other features the Ranger would receive. That thread has also produced some helpful homebrew ideas about Ranger-ing
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Have you ever thought about replacing the 13th level class feature with rogue features? How about giving the ranger class the insightful fighting ability paired with a limited version of sneak attack. Lets say that your ranger now gains the sneak attack feature equal to half their level on favored enemies, and sneak attack equal to a third or fourth of their level when fighting regular foes. 20th level ranger gets 5d6 sneak attack damage on a favored enemy, and 3d6 on a regular enemy.
Something else you could try is giving your ranger the final features from some of the fighter archetypes. Survivor from Champion, Vigilant Defender from Cavalier, Strength Before Death from Samurai, and as you already stated Improved Combat Superiority from Battle Master are definitely some okay/good choices to consider.
I just rolled a revised spell-less ranger (Deep Stalker) for Out of the abyss. Overall i think it will be a fun build for the campaign.
I was curious to find out if anyone else had ideas on replacing a few of the abilities that would make it feel more martial as the spell less option was intended
Examples:
Appreciate any feedback!
sniff sniff - noone has run into this dilemma yet?
This is an idea I've toyed around with. A friend of mine has switched from Pathfinder to D&D and has had trouble translating her old ranger. I have no revolutionary suggestion for edits at the moment, though...I'll post if something comes to mind!
One of the NPC heroes I've built is a little like this idea. He's a hill dwarf ranger (surprisingly powerful). He's not very comfortable with magic and never wants to fool with anything magical personally, yet (as a D&D ranger) he has those spell slots. So I've decided that he unconsciously uses spells, attributing them to luck or skill. Currently he doesn't use any flashy spells (just things like jump, longstrider, and hunter's mark), but as his levels progress he may have to come to terms with his true talents.
Im trying to balance replacing of the Archetype spells as well to make this character completely spell less. Adding more Superiority dice sounds like the way to go, but also looking to more customer maneuvers that you spend a die to do something a spell would normally do. Ill let you know what i come up with. Thanks for the feedback @Kings_Arsenal
Just a question, if you don't want spells why play a ranger? I mean what is left that is unique to a ranger that isn't duplicated in the fighter class?
I think the same question can be asked for any hybrid class when it comes to replacing abilities. I believe the revised ranger does a pretty nice job overall with the class. I am just looking to replace spell casting with a different and albeit simpler mechanic.
My personal taste for the ranger is to have one without having to maintain some spell and having to use hunter's mark for damage. It is a little too mmo to me and i am looking for something slightly more streamlined. I also feel the Ranger class should "just do" some of these spell like things just tied to a different resource. Hence the maneuvers fit in nicely. The call nature's allies is more "druidy" and i think could be supplemented with something different, not necessarily something out of fighter. Tweaking a natural ability from Druid seems to be an interesting way to go. I am not yet 3rd level and have already made the choice to go Hunter conclave rather than the Underdark Scout to avoid any additional magic abilities. It also seems a better overall fit, for my playstyle, which is really what it comes down and what fits into the campaign.
Balancing additional custom maneuvers is something i have been researching but still working out for the OOTA game i am in. The concept of the character is that he has been captured by Drow from his woodland home. Being severed from his magical ties to the forest his talents are beginning to manifest differently based on the cruel environment of the Underdark.
Hopefully this explains to somewhat where I am looking for ideas, and I appreciate the question and feedback.
Spells are kind of an innate part of the Ranger class, not having them is like a paladin not having spells. It's easier and more fluff accurate to turn a fighter or rogue into a spell-less ranger than it is to remove the spells from a ranger. The rogue scout UA, for instance, is actually really good.
I agree with you Phoenix, the Rogue Scout has some ok movement bonuses but that is about it.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Thats not bad, but you are talking a 17th level ability.
Well, how do you like two free proficiencies and Expertise in them at 3rd level?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Its good, but more roguish. I am looking for more of a flexible martial mechanic to replace hunter's mark.
I don't know if you were looking at the Unearthed Arcana article Mike Mearls wrote in Sep 2015 as an attempt to revise the Ranger class.
My wife really liked this and fleshed out some ideas on DnD Wiki calling it a Spirit Ranger. If you get a chance to look at it, I would be very interested in any feedback.
Thanks!
@KennerHugh I like what your wife fleshed out. Overall feedback was that there are a ton of abilities that you have available for your Spirit Ranger. After playing it have you felt that it could be streamlined more? I believe it is a lot to review all of the spells available and to keep track of.
I think most of the powers looked like they made sense and were inline with the concept. Nice to see such creativity!
To approximate the ranger's healing spells w/o magic, I'd give the un-spelled ranger the Healer feat and Herbalism kit proficiency as class features. Hunters Mark would also become a class feature. After that, I would pull from 3.5 Deepwood Stalker prestige class, which featured some maneuver-like abilities not based on magic. Like Called Shot, which increased your to-hit and crit range. Or Head Shot, which increased your damage. These are geard toward archery, but I believe there were melee options, as well.
Think of Aragorn from LotR for inspiration. Good at both ranged and melee combat. Some skill with basic field medicine and knowledge of plants and herbs. Adept at stealth and tracking and hunting. No real magic (well, until that whole undead army thing. But even then, HE wasn't magical.)
You could play around with Drizzt's "Hunter" state. Like Barbarian Rage but make tweaks to suit Ranger stealth & skirmish with risk of mental harm if you stay in the state for too long. From the Forgotten Realms wiki, "When Drizzt was the Hunter, he reached his physical apex, his skills honed to their utmost peak. His scimitars were like extensions of his own arms, and his senses were heightened beyond their normal capacity."
You could try a Ranger point pool system (i.e Ki, Sorcery Points). Spend a few points to bonus action target a creature + add 1d6 damage on a hit + advantage on Perception + Survival checks for 1 hour.
You could expand on Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer by adding features at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. You could add extra skill proficiencies through Survivalist feature. Basic animal communication ability as seen in the UA Revised Ranger Primeval Awareness feature, except move it to a different level.
Replacing magic is difficult to do.
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Thanks @Domcarlina and all for the feedback. I do like your suggestions, and definitely would be fun to try in a homebrew campaign. You are completely correct, replacing magic is tough to balance.
My current status is I am level 5, in Out of the abyss, running the revised spell-less Ranger with Hunter Conclave. I believe the class is currently well balanced. Here are a few thoughts I have so far:
So like I said, things are going well with my current build. It is nice to hear everyone's ideas. I do hope to see what the D&D team comes up with in their next Ranger content release. I have seen some info talked about in other threads that they may introduce something similar to what I am doing in swapping out Class features to suit the player's taste.
No problem. Also check out my thread, "How Would You Re-Design The Ranger" for other inspration. I focused on keeping the spells for the Ranger while modifying other features the Ranger would receive. That thread has also produced some helpful homebrew ideas about Ranger-ing
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Have you ever thought about replacing the 13th level class feature with rogue features? How about giving the ranger class the insightful fighting ability paired with a limited version of sneak attack. Lets say that your ranger now gains the sneak attack feature equal to half their level on favored enemies, and sneak attack equal to a third or fourth of their level when fighting regular foes. 20th level ranger gets 5d6 sneak attack damage on a favored enemy, and 3d6 on a regular enemy.
Something else you could try is giving your ranger the final features from some of the fighter archetypes. Survivor from Champion, Vigilant Defender from Cavalier, Strength Before Death from Samurai, and as you already stated Improved Combat Superiority from Battle Master are definitely some okay/good choices to consider.
I hoped this helped.