What is the most "balanced" rouge class in your guy's opinion? Just asking, because I want to make a balanced rouge character (I think a lot of subclasses are OP). For reference of an OP move: when rouges get a 1/16 (resistance, saving throw made, uncanny dodge, and ranger uncanny dodge (not rouge subclass related but still overpowered) )
For reference of an OP move: when rouges get a 1/16 (resistance, saving throw made, uncanny dodge, and ranger uncanny dodge (not rouge subclass related but still overpowered) )
I'm not sure what you're describing here; if you were to get Uncanny Dodge from two sources then you couldn't use them both, as they require your reaction and you only get one of those per round. Plus Hunter Rangers don't get Uncanny Dodge until level 15, which is a hell of an investment; plus you'd be better off getting Evasion since you'd have missed out on getting that from Rogue by taking so many levels in Ranger.
Anyway, to the original question I personally think that Rogue is one of the better off classes as all the sub-classes are pretty good, and I wouldn't say that any are much stronger than the others.
The only exception is Thief, which requires a bit of DM buy in to really get the most out of. Thief's Reflexes is great, but 17th level is way too late for most campaigns. Fast Hands can be fun, but its actual combat potential is poorly defined so it requires some support from your DM to make the most of it so you can use it to throw things as a bonus action, plant items on enemies and so-on. Second Storey Work is great for RP but highly situational in combat. Supreme Sneak is probably it's best all round ability IMO, as it makes it a lot easier to hide, but that kind of shoe horns you into a specific style of play to use it a lot.
But yeah, most sub-classes are pretty balanced IMO for Rogues; it's just a good all around class.
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If you take a High Elf as your base you have spellcasting, range, melee, and skills. They're the epitome of the Jack of all Trades, moreso even than the Bard.
I don’t think any rogue subclass is particularly game breaking. There are some weak options (looking at you assassin) but I can’t think of any I would say are unbalanced. Especially compared with what the other classes can do
What is the most "balanced" rouge class in your guy's opinion? Just asking, because I want to make a balanced rouge character (I think a lot of subclasses are OP). For reference of an OP move: when rouges get a 1/16 (resistance, saving throw made, uncanny dodge, and ranger uncanny dodge (not rouge subclass related but still overpowered) )
This is a very confusing question, but any high-quality rouge should balance well if you pick the right color for your skin tone and blend it properly.
In terms of rogue subclasses, it depends on level - e.g. Phantoms get good at level 9, but Arcane Tricksters get good at level 3. And none of them are OP. I would sort them like this:
Best Subclasses: these bring tools to the party that guarantee you can legally Sneak Attack.
Arcane Trickster
Swashbuckler
Good Subclasses: These have a very specific set of tools, tools they will use to achieve success.
Phantom
Scout
Soul Knife
Mediocre Subclasses: These are bad due to having a very specific niche they're not particularly good at filling, but it's still possible to enjoy them.
Assassin
This is part of the most damaging build in the game if you multiclass, but it's pretty bad on a Rogue chassis.
Thief
Worst Subclasses: Both of these struggle hard to exist in a world that has the other subclasses in it.
Inquisitive
Mastermind
Each level is sorted alphabetically, not by individual power level. And I'm radically oversimplifying since the balance is really, really different at each level you get new subclass powers in, because Rogues have no internal balance - AT 3 is much better than AT 9, but Phantom 9 is much better than Phantom 3.
I find the Arcane Trickster to be a really useful build in any group. You get access to some utility spells that you can use throughout the life of the character. You still have your primary attack option (Sneak Attack) with spells to enhance that attack. And none of the is OP to the point where I'd find the build unbalanced compared to an equivalent PC.
That said, subclasses like the Swashbuckler are and Soul Knife are darned close in their builds as well.
Oh, I do love my Arcane Trickster! They are just so extremely versatile I find that I am hardly without a relevant skill or ability to use in any situation. Especially with a level or two of wizard thrown in for some extra magical tricks.
If you feel the rogue is overpowered then your table might be running them incorrectly. Almost verything a rogue can do combat wise is limited to one creature, either itself or an enemy.
sneak attack may look like a lot of damage, but it’s actually the baseline by which other martial classes are compared to. If you take accuracy into account, you may find that the majority or martials scale up accordingly with it.
the defensive capabilities of a rogue are different ways of maneuvering around the battlefield and a reaction to reduce damage vs one attack you can see. Evasion for dexterity saves comes in and is very welcome. The rest are likely at higher levels most players will never see. All of this is to slightly offsets the lower hitpoint die and lower AC options. This is also compounded by the rogue not gaining shield proficiency since the rogue usually relies upon two weapon fighting for offensive boost.
All the subclasses of rogue are pretty good, with two exceptions. The assassin and the mastermind. The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational. The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
the following is a basic DPR calculation over a base class rogues damage progression. It accounts for two weapon fighting on your turn, and the additional damage expected if a rogue gets to apply sneak attack on that reaction. its the same damage profile for showing the expected DPR loss if you plan on using your bonus action to take the help action.
If you feel the rogue is overpowered then your table might be running them incorrectly. Almost verything a rogue can do combat wise is limited to one creature, either itself or an enemy.
sneak attack may look like a lot of damage, but it’s actually the baseline by which other martial classes are compared to. If you take accuracy into account, your plan find that the majority or martials scale up accordingly with it.
the defensive capabilities of a rogue are different ways of maneuvering around the battlefield and a reaction to reduce damage vs one attack you can see. Evasion for dexterity saves comes in and is very welcome. The rest are likely at higher levels most players will never see. All of this is to slightly offsets the lower hitpoint die and lower AC options. This is also compounded by the rogue not gaining shield proficiency since the rogue usually relies upon two weapon fighting for offensive boost.
All the subclasses of rogue are pretty good, with two exceptions. The assassin and the mastermind. The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational. The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
the following is a basic DPR calculation over a base class rogues damage progression. It accounts for two weapon fighting on your turn, and the additional damage expected if a rogue gets to apply sneak attack on that reaction. its the same damage profile for showing the expected DPR loss if you plan on using your bonus action to take the help action.
Lvl 1= 9.535, +6.35 with reaction
Lvl 3= 12.72, +8.625 with reaction
Lvl 5= 16.505, +11.5 with reaction
Lvl 7= 19.69, +13.775 with reaction
Lvl 9= 23.475, +16.65 with reaction
Lvl 11= 26.66, +18.925 with reaction
Lvl 13= 29.845, +21.2 with reaction
Lvl 15= 33.03, +23.475 with reaction
Lvl 17= 36.215, +25.75 with reaction
Lvl 19= 39.4, +28.025 with reaction
This is a pretty good break down of the rogue I think! Spot on. Nice post.
The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational.
This has not been my experience at all; while the advantage against enemies that haven't gone yet isn't strictly up to you, with high DEX and maybe the Alert feat you can be pretty confident of going ahead of some or all enemies. Meanwhile the auto-crit vs. surprised enemies is just straight up amazing, and it's up to you if you get the drop on enemies or not (by being more like an assassin); since you should also have advantage in this case that's a guaranteed sneak attack with double damage on a melee or short range ranged attack, and bypassing all but total cover in the latter case, plus even at long range it's an auto-hit with double weapon damage even if you don't get the sneak attack as well.
I'm less impressed by some of the later abilities (I like them, but you have to work even harder to make the most of them), but with such a great 3rd level ability that scales with every sneak attack dice it's not really a big problem; nothing beats dropping double sneak attack on something and just wrecking it in the first turn.
The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
Again this is weird; giving an ally advantage as a bonus action at range is huge, it just requires you to be more of a team player than a lone wolf. A ranged Mastermind is a lot of fun, and very powerful, as ranged sneak attack should never be dismissed. There's competition between ranged Help and Aimed Shot, but in any situation where you're already going to get sneak attack then helping an ally can be a big bonus for the group, especially as you may already have advantage after hiding earlier, or if an ally can give that to you (if you're being a team player, then so should your team).
It's also not their only third level ability; they've got some big social stealth bonuses as well, which can mean avoiding a fight entirely, or ensuring it takes place on your terms rather than the enemies, something that should never be undervalued.
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I'm playing a lvl 5 Dhampir (Lvl 4 Rogue Swashbuckler / Lvl 1 Fighter) and I already feel very powerful. Dhampir gives me darkvision, good racial ASI boosts, a hands free version of spider climb, no need to breath, and a d4 +4 fanged bite that can be used x3 per long rest to either heal or give a bonus to my next attack. Add in Second Wind and that's 2 excellent ways to heal myself.
I Also picked Duel Wielder for my LvL 4 feat so I get +1 AC and the ability to use 2 rapiers which I've combined with the Fighter's TWF fighting style for +4 on my offhand. That's two opportunities to deliver my sneak attack per turn, and hopefully more when I get Action Surge. I can't wait to get manuvers so I can use Riposte and Brace as reactions to get another sneak attack per round if the conditions are right. I might even pick up Sentinel at some point depending on how things go.
Because we are not allowed multiclassing I added the Booming Blade cantrip to my Swashbuckler rogue. With his mobility (Fancy Legwork), he can trigger the BB damage nearly every round. And next character level the BB damage rises again.
The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational.
This has not been my experience at all; while the advantage against enemies that haven't gone yet isn't strictly up to you, with high DEX and maybe the Alert feat you can be pretty confident of going ahead of some or all enemies. Meanwhile the auto-crit vs. surprised enemies is just straight up amazing, and it's up to you if you get the drop on enemies or not (by being more like an assassin); since you should also have advantage in this case that's a guaranteed sneak attack with double damage on a melee or short range ranged attack, and bypassing all but total cover in the latter case, plus even at long range it's an auto-hit with double weapon damage even if you don't get the sneak attack as well.
I'm less impressed by some of the later abilities (I like them, but you have to work even harder to make the most of them), but with such a great 3rd level ability that scales with every sneak attack dice it's not really a big problem; nothing beats dropping double sneak attack on something and just wrecking it in the first turn.
The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
Again this is weird; giving an ally advantage as a bonus action at range is huge, it just requires you to be more of a team player than a lone wolf. A ranged Mastermind is a lot of fun, and very powerful, as ranged sneak attack should never be dismissed. There's competition between ranged Help and Aimed Shot, but in any situation where you're already going to get sneak attack then helping an ally can be a big bonus for the group, especially as you may already have advantage after hiding earlier, or if an ally can give that to you (if you're being a team player, then so should your team).
It's also not their only third level ability; they've got some big social stealth bonuses as well, which can mean avoiding a fight entirely, or ensuring it takes place on your terms rather than the enemies, something that should never be undervalued.
The likelihood of getting a full Assassinate (going first AND hitting) scales from about 52% of the time at level 3 and gets better as you level up to end up around 82% at higher levels. If your DM allows Stealth in the game (ask first!), enjoy having ridiculous first-round damage that’s absolutely bonkers late game.
The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational.
This has not been my experience at all; while the advantage against enemies that haven't gone yet isn't strictly up to you, with high DEX and maybe the Alert feat you can be pretty confident of going ahead of some or all enemies. Meanwhile the auto-crit vs. surprised enemies is just straight up amazing, and it's up to you if you get the drop on enemies or not (by being more like an assassin); since you should also have advantage in this case that's a guaranteed sneak attack with double damage on a melee or short range ranged attack, and bypassing all but total cover in the latter case, plus even at long range it's an auto-hit with double weapon damage even if you don't get the sneak attack as well.
I'm less impressed by some of the later abilities (I like them, but you have to work even harder to make the most of them), but with such a great 3rd level ability that scales with every sneak attack dice it's not really a big problem; nothing beats dropping double sneak attack on something and just wrecking it in the first turn.
The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
Again this is weird; giving an ally advantage as a bonus action at range is huge, it just requires you to be more of a team player than a lone wolf. A ranged Mastermind is a lot of fun, and very powerful, as ranged sneak attack should never be dismissed. There's competition between ranged Help and Aimed Shot, but in any situation where you're already going to get sneak attack then helping an ally can be a big bonus for the group, especially as you may already have advantage after hiding earlier, or if an ally can give that to you (if you're being a team player, then so should your team).
It's also not their only third level ability; they've got some big social stealth bonuses as well, which can mean avoiding a fight entirely, or ensuring it takes place on your terms rather than the enemies, something that should never be undervalued.
The likelihood of getting a full Assassinate (going first AND hitting) scales from about 52% of the time at level 3 and gets better as you level up to end up around 82% at higher levels. If your DM allows Stealth in the game (ask first!), enjoy having ridiculous first-round damage that’s absolutely bonkers late game.
And just an fyi - if the Assassin wields two weapons, those numbers are off. The auto-critical doesn’t require a hit on the first attack only, the second attack without advantage is also auto-critical. So yeah… at level 6+ you’ll be Assassinating on almost every opportunity your DM gives you.
If you need to rely on a feat to get a base class ability to function properly then its not super well designed IMO.
If you need alert to make Assassin viable then its not really a good deal....not when Aim exists now to give you ADV on your first shot in a fight anyway.
The auto crit relies on the surprise mechanism which is wonky at best and pretty bad at worst. If that were more clearly defined then I would have confidence in the subclass.
Otherwise I feel the subclass is the worst of the Rogue groups simply because the rest of of its features are not that great either.
Its good in the right campaign for sure and if your DM is on board with what to expect from surprise and maybe refining it a bit....otherwise Gloomstalker is actually the better "assassin" build IMO.
If you need to rely on a feat to get a base class ability to function properly then its not super well designed IMO.
If you need alert to make Assassin viable then its not really a good deal....not when Aim exists now to give you ADV on your first shot in a fight anyway.
The auto crit relies on the surprise mechanism which is wonky at best and pretty bad at worst. If that were more clearly defined then I would have confidence in the subclass.
Otherwise I feel the subclass is the worst of the Rogue groups simply because the rest of of its features are not that great either.
Its good in the right campaign for sure and if your DM is on board with what to expect from surprise and maybe refining it a bit....otherwise Gloomstalker is actually the better "assassin" build IMO.
You don’t need to rely on a Feat for it to work, at all. Did you do the math on what happens when you don’t take Alert or did you just assert something without bothering?
The other counterpoint is that Sharpshooter/GWM is overwhelmingly the part of every single Ranger build as well and ultimately what makes every Gloomstalker actually viable. It doesn’t diminish the builds at all, but that’s literally required for the damage outputs you see touted on every build thread.
The Surprise mechanism isn’t wonky or bad at all. What’s difficult about “Stealth and attack”, and if you’re higher in the initiative tracker, you have Surprise. What’s so confusing about it?
If your DM doesn’t like Surprise or Stealth, then yeah - don’t play a rogue at all. If you like the idea of playing a class that can kill a lot of things in one shot, play an Assassin.
It doesn’t need refinement at all beyond ensuring your DM knows how the game works. Of course you can have your opinion about classes, but that doesn’t diminish everything that actually works from working.
Let’s assume our Assassin decides that Initiative is bunk and just maxes out Dex at Level 9. He also hates magic items entirely because that’s “what his character would do”. And also, these unnecessary gimps are necessary to drive a point home.
So he’s got +5 to Dex, dual wielding 2 daggers.
Stealth will be extremely likely. Let’s assume there’s a potential Perception score of 14 (unlikely). With Expertise in Stealth the Assassin has +13 on Stealth at this level. So let’s just call that a flat 95% chance of success.
Initiative will be approximately a net +3 above any target he attacks (which is also overwhelmingly unlikely). 66% chance of Surprise.
Now, the chance to hit. Let’s say, two attacks (two weapon fighting). First has advantage and second will not. Versus AC… 18. Assassin has +9 to hit.
First attack chance: 84%. Second attack chance: 60%. Chance of one attack hitting? 35.2% Chance of both attacks hitting? 50.4%.
85.6 * 66 * 95% = 53.67%. For the *least* optimized assassin at level 9, against a highly perceptive enemy, highly dextrous, high AC, will still guarantee a crit sneak attack 53.67% of the time. Notice how this number is actually twice your original claim:
”The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.”
A single Feat alternate instead of SS ups this under-estimated number to 85.6 * 83.5 * 95% = 68%.
I definitely understand NOT being interested in a class because it’s one-dimensional, not someone’s cup of tea, etc. but I can’t accept poorly stated statistics that don’t have any basis in reality.
If you need to rely on a feat to get a base class ability to function properly then its not super well designed IMO.
If you need alert to make Assassin viable then its not really a good deal....not when Aim exists now to give you ADV on your first shot in a fight anyway.
The auto crit relies on the surprise mechanism which is wonky at best and pretty bad at worst. If that were more clearly defined then I would have confidence in the subclass.
Otherwise I feel the subclass is the worst of the Rogue groups simply because the rest of of its features are not that great either.
Its good in the right campaign for sure and if your DM is on board with what to expect from surprise and maybe refining it a bit....otherwise Gloomstalker is actually the better "assassin" build IMO.
You don’t need to rely on a Feat for it to work, at all. Did you do the math on what happens when you don’t take Alert or did you just assert something without bothering?
The other counterpoint is that Sharpshooter/GWM is overwhelmingly the part of every single Ranger build as well and ultimately what makes every Gloomstalker actually viable. It doesn’t diminish the builds at all, but that’s literally required for the damage outputs you see touted on every build thread.
The Surprise mechanism isn’t wonky or bad at all. What’s difficult about “Stealth and attack”, and if you’re higher in the initiative tracker, you have Surprise. What’s so confusing about it?
If your DM doesn’t like Surprise or Stealth, then yeah - don’t play a rogue at all. If you like the idea of playing a class that can kill a lot of things in one shot, play an Assassin.
It doesn’t need refinement at all beyond ensuring your DM knows how the game works. Of course you can have your opinion about classes, but that doesn’t diminish everything that actually works from working.
Yes your math is bad for the same reason I said it was on the previous thread....
It assumes white room scenarios thanks to magic items, and low perception enemies which is not very real-world fitting.
It also takes 0 account for your party mates which is also extremely unrealistic.
Overall its not at all what one should expect to use the ability.
Let’s assume our Assassin decides that Initiative is bunk and just maxes out Dex at Level 9. He also hates magic items entirely because that’s “what his character would do”. And also, these unnecessary gimps are necessary to drive a point home.
So he’s got +5 to Dex, dual wielding 2 daggers.
Stealth will be extremely likely. Let’s assume there’s a potential Perception score of 14 (unlikely). With Expertise in Stealth the Assassin has +13 on Stealth at this level. So let’s just call that a flat 95% chance of success.
Initiative will be approximately a net +3 above any target he attacks (which is also overwhelmingly unlikely). 66% chance of Surprise.
Now, the chance to hit. Let’s say, two attacks (two weapon fighting). First has advantage and second will not. Versus AC… 18. Assassin has +9 to hit.
First attack chance: 84%. Second attack chance: 60%. Chance of one attack hitting? 35.2% Chance of both attacks hitting? 50.4%.
85.6 * 66 * 95% = 53.67%. For the *least* optimized assassin at level 9, against a highly perceptive enemy, highly dextrous, high AC, will still guarantee a crit sneak attack 53.67% of the time. Notice how this number is actually twice your original claim:
”The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.”
A single Feat alternate instead of SS ups this under-estimated number to 85.6 * 83.5 * 95% = 68%.
I definitely understand NOT being interested in a class because it’s one-dimensional, not someone’s cup of tea, etc. but I can’t accept poorly stated statistics that don’t have any basis in reality.
You assume its as easy as Stealth vs. Perception which is not the only factor with Surprise unforunately...thats half the issue.
If your party fails on the checks they may notice all of you or at least be aware enough to forgo the surprise....something you didn't account for at all.
“Yes your math is bad for the same reason I said it was on the previous thread....
It assumes white room scenarios thanks to magic items, and low perception enemies which is not very real-world fitting. “
Shows math using absolutely worst-case scenarios for Perception checks
“You assume its as easy as Stealth vs. Perception which is not the only factor with Surprise unforunately...thats half the issue.”
I can’t argue if you’re constantly moving the goal posts.
”It also takes 0 account for your party mates which is also extremely unrealistic.”
“If your party fails on the checks they may notice all of you or at least be aware enough to forgo the surprise....something you didn't account for at all. ”
Since when does an Assassin approach a target with his Plate Mail-wearing Cleric standing beside him? If your DM is so unrealistic that an entire party of adventurers has to roll for Stealth to get the drop on a bad guy, that’s not a problem of the class, that’s a problem of your DM or your player’s imaginations.
You can’t argue my math is bad (quoting wonky Perception) then immediately backtrack in your next post. I already addressed that you should chat with your DM to make sure they’re open to the idea of Stealth and Surprise at *least* how they’re written in the book. If your DM doesn’t like Stealth, then better not play any Rogues at all.
There’s even an Audible Sound Distance Table for people trying to be quiet on the DM Screen for 2d6*5 ft, so I would hope they would at least allow your Assassin to scout 60ft ahead and not require the party to roll Stealth checks.
But I’m done arguing - you can call it a white room calculation (it is), but spouting out random numbers (like 10%) without even qualifying it is just being hyperbolic for no reason.
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What is the most "balanced" rouge class in your guy's opinion? Just asking, because I want to make a balanced rouge character (I think a lot of subclasses are OP). For reference of an OP move: when rouges get a 1/16 (resistance, saving throw made, uncanny dodge, and ranger uncanny dodge (not rouge subclass related but still overpowered) )
I'm not sure what you're describing here; if you were to get Uncanny Dodge from two sources then you couldn't use them both, as they require your reaction and you only get one of those per round. Plus Hunter Rangers don't get Uncanny Dodge until level 15, which is a hell of an investment; plus you'd be better off getting Evasion since you'd have missed out on getting that from Rogue by taking so many levels in Ranger.
Anyway, to the original question I personally think that Rogue is one of the better off classes as all the sub-classes are pretty good, and I wouldn't say that any are much stronger than the others.
The only exception is Thief, which requires a bit of DM buy in to really get the most out of. Thief's Reflexes is great, but 17th level is way too late for most campaigns. Fast Hands can be fun, but its actual combat potential is poorly defined so it requires some support from your DM to make the most of it so you can use it to throw things as a bonus action, plant items on enemies and so-on. Second Storey Work is great for RP but highly situational in combat. Supreme Sneak is probably it's best all round ability IMO, as it makes it a lot easier to hide, but that kind of shoe horns you into a specific style of play to use it a lot.
But yeah, most sub-classes are pretty balanced IMO for Rogues; it's just a good all around class.
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In my view, Arcane Trickster.
If you take a High Elf as your base you have spellcasting, range, melee, and skills. They're the epitome of the Jack of all Trades, moreso even than the Bard.
I don’t think any rogue subclass is particularly game breaking. There are some weak options (looking at you assassin) but I can’t think of any I would say are unbalanced. Especially compared with what the other classes can do
This is a very confusing question, but any high-quality rouge should balance well if you pick the right color for your skin tone and blend it properly.
In terms of rogue subclasses, it depends on level - e.g. Phantoms get good at level 9, but Arcane Tricksters get good at level 3. And none of them are OP. I would sort them like this:
Each level is sorted alphabetically, not by individual power level. And I'm radically oversimplifying since the balance is really, really different at each level you get new subclass powers in, because Rogues have no internal balance - AT 3 is much better than AT 9, but Phantom 9 is much better than Phantom 3.
I find the Arcane Trickster to be a really useful build in any group. You get access to some utility spells that you can use throughout the life of the character. You still have your primary attack option (Sneak Attack) with spells to enhance that attack. And none of the is OP to the point where I'd find the build unbalanced compared to an equivalent PC.
That said, subclasses like the Swashbuckler are and Soul Knife are darned close in their builds as well.
Oh, I do love my Arcane Trickster! They are just so extremely versatile I find that I am hardly without a relevant skill or ability to use in any situation. Especially with a level or two of wizard thrown in for some extra magical tricks.
If you feel the rogue is overpowered then your table might be running them incorrectly. Almost verything a rogue can do combat wise is limited to one creature, either itself or an enemy.
sneak attack may look like a lot of damage, but it’s actually the baseline by which other martial classes are compared to. If you take accuracy into account, you may find that the majority or martials scale up accordingly with it.
the defensive capabilities of a rogue are different ways of maneuvering around the battlefield and a reaction to reduce damage vs one attack you can see. Evasion for dexterity saves comes in and is very welcome. The rest are likely at higher levels most players will never see. All of this is to slightly offsets the lower hitpoint die and lower AC options. This is also compounded by the rogue not gaining shield proficiency since the rogue usually relies upon two weapon fighting for offensive boost.
All the subclasses of rogue are pretty good, with two exceptions. The assassin and the mastermind. The assassins 3rd level feature is trash. Utterly unreliable and situational. The mastermind on the other hand is just plainly ineffective. Using a bonus action to use the help action for another ally to gain advantage is never worth using on a rogue. A rogues single attack damage is so high that sacrificing the rogues bonus action to give someone else advantage on one attack is almost never worth using. It’s a trap and it’s almost never worth doing.
the following is a basic DPR calculation over a base class rogues damage progression. It accounts for two weapon fighting on your turn, and the additional damage expected if a rogue gets to apply sneak attack on that reaction. its the same damage profile for showing the expected DPR loss if you plan on using your bonus action to take the help action.
Lvl 1= 9.535, +6.35 with reaction
Lvl 3= 12.72, +8.625 with reaction
Lvl 5= 16.505, +11.5 with reaction
Lvl 7= 19.69, +13.775 with reaction
Lvl 9= 23.475, +16.65 with reaction
Lvl 11= 26.66, +18.925 with reaction
Lvl 13= 29.845, +21.2 with reaction
Lvl 15= 33.03, +23.475 with reaction
Lvl 17= 36.215, +25.75 with reaction
Lvl 19= 39.4, +28.025 with reaction
This is a pretty good break down of the rogue I think! Spot on. Nice post.
This has not been my experience at all; while the advantage against enemies that haven't gone yet isn't strictly up to you, with high DEX and maybe the Alert feat you can be pretty confident of going ahead of some or all enemies. Meanwhile the auto-crit vs. surprised enemies is just straight up amazing, and it's up to you if you get the drop on enemies or not (by being more like an assassin); since you should also have advantage in this case that's a guaranteed sneak attack with double damage on a melee or short range ranged attack, and bypassing all but total cover in the latter case, plus even at long range it's an auto-hit with double weapon damage even if you don't get the sneak attack as well.
I'm less impressed by some of the later abilities (I like them, but you have to work even harder to make the most of them), but with such a great 3rd level ability that scales with every sneak attack dice it's not really a big problem; nothing beats dropping double sneak attack on something and just wrecking it in the first turn.
Again this is weird; giving an ally advantage as a bonus action at range is huge, it just requires you to be more of a team player than a lone wolf. A ranged Mastermind is a lot of fun, and very powerful, as ranged sneak attack should never be dismissed. There's competition between ranged Help and Aimed Shot, but in any situation where you're already going to get sneak attack then helping an ally can be a big bonus for the group, especially as you may already have advantage after hiding earlier, or if an ally can give that to you (if you're being a team player, then so should your team).
It's also not their only third level ability; they've got some big social stealth bonuses as well, which can mean avoiding a fight entirely, or ensuring it takes place on your terms rather than the enemies, something that should never be undervalued.
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I'm playing a lvl 5 Dhampir (Lvl 4 Rogue Swashbuckler / Lvl 1 Fighter) and I already feel very powerful. Dhampir gives me darkvision, good racial ASI boosts, a hands free version of spider climb, no need to breath, and a d4 +4 fanged bite that can be used x3 per long rest to either heal or give a bonus to my next attack. Add in Second Wind and that's 2 excellent ways to heal myself.
I Also picked Duel Wielder for my LvL 4 feat so I get +1 AC and the ability to use 2 rapiers which I've combined with the Fighter's TWF fighting style for +4 on my offhand. That's two opportunities to deliver my sneak attack per turn, and hopefully more when I get Action Surge. I can't wait to get manuvers so I can use Riposte and Brace as reactions to get another sneak attack per round if the conditions are right. I might even pick up Sentinel at some point depending on how things go.
Because we are not allowed multiclassing I added the Booming Blade cantrip to my Swashbuckler rogue. With his mobility (Fancy Legwork), he can trigger the BB damage nearly every round. And next character level the BB damage rises again.
All of what this guy says is true.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/113919-raw-surprise?page=4#c62
The likelihood of getting a full Assassinate (going first AND hitting) scales from about 52% of the time at level 3 and gets better as you level up to end up around 82% at higher levels. If your DM allows Stealth in the game (ask first!), enjoy having ridiculous first-round damage that’s absolutely bonkers late game.
And just an fyi - if the Assassin wields two weapons, those numbers are off. The auto-critical doesn’t require a hit on the first attack only, the second attack without advantage is also auto-critical. So yeah… at level 6+ you’ll be Assassinating on almost every opportunity your DM gives you.
If you need to rely on a feat to get a base class ability to function properly then its not super well designed IMO.
If you need alert to make Assassin viable then its not really a good deal....not when Aim exists now to give you ADV on your first shot in a fight anyway.
The auto crit relies on the surprise mechanism which is wonky at best and pretty bad at worst. If that were more clearly defined then I would have confidence in the subclass.
Otherwise I feel the subclass is the worst of the Rogue groups simply because the rest of of its features are not that great either.
Its good in the right campaign for sure and if your DM is on board with what to expect from surprise and maybe refining it a bit....otherwise Gloomstalker is actually the better "assassin" build IMO.
You don’t need to rely on a Feat for it to work, at all. Did you do the math on what happens when you don’t take Alert or did you just assert something without bothering?
The other counterpoint is that Sharpshooter/GWM is overwhelmingly the part of every single Ranger build as well and ultimately what makes every Gloomstalker actually viable. It doesn’t diminish the builds at all, but that’s literally required for the damage outputs you see touted on every build thread.
The Surprise mechanism isn’t wonky or bad at all. What’s difficult about “Stealth and attack”, and if you’re higher in the initiative tracker, you have Surprise. What’s so confusing about it?
If your DM doesn’t like Surprise or Stealth, then yeah - don’t play a rogue at all. If you like the idea of playing a class that can kill a lot of things in one shot, play an Assassin.
It doesn’t need refinement at all beyond ensuring your DM knows how the game works. Of course you can have your opinion about classes, but that doesn’t diminish everything that actually works from working.
To keep it productive…
Let’s assume our Assassin decides that Initiative is bunk and just maxes out Dex at Level 9. He also hates magic items entirely because that’s “what his character would do”. And also, these unnecessary gimps are necessary to drive a point home.
So he’s got +5 to Dex, dual wielding 2 daggers.
Stealth will be extremely likely. Let’s assume there’s a potential Perception score of 14 (unlikely). With Expertise in Stealth the Assassin has +13 on Stealth at this level. So let’s just call that a flat 95% chance of success.
Initiative will be approximately a net +3 above any target he attacks (which is also overwhelmingly unlikely). 66% chance of Surprise.
Now, the chance to hit. Let’s say, two attacks (two weapon fighting). First has advantage and second will not. Versus AC… 18. Assassin has +9 to hit.
First attack chance: 84%. Second attack chance: 60%. Chance of one attack hitting? 35.2% Chance of both attacks hitting? 50.4%.
85.6 * 66 * 95% = 53.67%. For the *least* optimized assassin at level 9, against a highly perceptive enemy, highly dextrous, high AC, will still guarantee a crit sneak attack 53.67% of the time. Notice how this number is actually twice your original claim:
”The odds of all three happening even 25% of the time is being generous. I would say about 10% or less of the time will you meet all of the conditions to actually use the full ability.”
A single Feat alternate instead of SS ups this under-estimated number to 85.6 * 83.5 * 95% = 68%.
I definitely understand NOT being interested in a class because it’s one-dimensional, not someone’s cup of tea, etc. but I can’t accept poorly stated statistics that don’t have any basis in reality.
Yes your math is bad for the same reason I said it was on the previous thread....
It assumes white room scenarios thanks to magic items, and low perception enemies which is not very real-world fitting.
It also takes 0 account for your party mates which is also extremely unrealistic.
Overall its not at all what one should expect to use the ability.
You assume its as easy as Stealth vs. Perception which is not the only factor with Surprise unforunately...thats half the issue.
If your party fails on the checks they may notice all of you or at least be aware enough to forgo the surprise....something you didn't account for at all.
“Yes your math is bad for the same reason I said it was on the previous thread....
It assumes white room scenarios thanks to magic items, and low perception enemies which is not very real-world fitting. “
Shows math using absolutely worst-case scenarios for Perception checks
“You assume its as easy as Stealth vs. Perception which is not the only factor with Surprise unforunately...thats half the issue.”
I can’t argue if you’re constantly moving the goal posts.
”It also takes 0 account for your party mates which is also extremely unrealistic.”
“If your party fails on the checks they may notice all of you or at least be aware enough to forgo the surprise....something you didn't account for at all. ”
Since when does an Assassin approach a target with his Plate Mail-wearing Cleric standing beside him? If your DM is so unrealistic that an entire party of adventurers has to roll for Stealth to get the drop on a bad guy, that’s not a problem of the class, that’s a problem of your DM or your player’s imaginations.
You can’t argue my math is bad (quoting wonky Perception) then immediately backtrack in your next post. I already addressed that you should chat with your DM to make sure they’re open to the idea of Stealth and Surprise at *least* how they’re written in the book. If your DM doesn’t like Stealth, then better not play any Rogues at all.
There’s even an Audible Sound Distance Table for people trying to be quiet on the DM Screen for 2d6*5 ft, so I would hope they would at least allow your Assassin to scout 60ft ahead and not require the party to roll Stealth checks.
But I’m done arguing - you can call it a white room calculation (it is), but spouting out random numbers (like 10%) without even qualifying it is just being hyperbolic for no reason.