The assassin from 3.5e was the best possible rogue build probably ever. You started the first level of assassin with death attack, which after studying your opponent for 3 rounds on a successful hit allowed you to either paralyze or kill your opponent (your choice) every odd level from 1st to 9th you get a plus to your sneak attack, and every even level a plus to poison resistance, uncanny Dodge for free at level 3, improved uncanny Dodge at level 5 and hide in plain sight at level 8. You also got spells machine or assassin at level 10 you would have up to level 4 spells some of which weren't to bad. Pass without trace, deep slumber, misdirection and dimension door just to name a few.
In my opinion there was never a better rogue build than assassin. Arcane trickster is fun to play, and the duelist was pretty great if you were playing a long campaign, 4 levels in rogue and 3 levels in fighter would set you up to meet the requirements.
If you want my opinion, all the rouge subclasses are situational and don't have features that are made to appeal to minmaxers. Apparently, that's what rouge subclasses are like. They're all weak and situational. And the assassin is no exception.
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Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
To me the whole game is situational. and if people keep saying Half of the Original subclasses are "bad" because of downtime or situational abilities, the real problem is certain parts of the Roleplaying game system are being underutilized or undermined.
remember the 10' pole is what made Roleplaying great.
To me the whole game is situational. and if people keep saying Half of the Original subclasses are bad because of downtime or situational abilities it's because certain parts of the Roleplaying game system are being underutilized.
I couldn't agree more. Soon, we'll be saying that damage isn't useful because it's situational and only helps in combat.
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Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
If you want my opinion, all the rouge subclasses are situational and don't have features that are made to appeal to minmaxers. Apparently, that's what rouge subclasses are like. They're all weak and situational. And the assassin is no exception.
Situational is fine. As long as situations aren't once or twice in a campaign. And that the situations do not require the entire party to play into it for a key ability that defines a character to even be used at all.
Situational is fine. But there is a balance. Too situational is bad. too common can also be bad. The assassinate feature is the defining feature of the assassin and because of that it needs to be usable enough to be worth being the key feature. Features you can rarely use should be ribbon features that are a nice extra that add spice to a game.
I get more out of Swashbucker. You basically have to work hard to not get sneak attack. Shadow Monk 6 / Swashbuckler - is fun. Shadowstep to isolated foes to get sneak attack with advantage on every turn. If your target's buddy steps over, shadowstep to a new target, rinse, and repeat.
If you want my opinion, all the rouge subclasses are situational and don't have features that are made to appeal to minmaxers. Apparently, that's what rouge subclasses are like. They're all weak and situational. And the assassin is no exception.
If you are creative an Arcane Trickster with the right spells and feats is effective in just about any situation.
In a 1V1 an Arcane Trickster would frustrate the crap out of a min-maxed DPR build. "Hey Mr. Sharpshooter-CBE were you planning on using that hand crossbow? Too bad my mage hand is holding your case of bolts!"
To me the whole game is situational. and if people keep saying Half of the Original subclasses are "bad" because of downtime or situational abilities, the real problem is certain parts of the Roleplaying game system are being underutilized or undermined.
remember the 10' pole is what made Roleplaying great.
I sorta agree with this but the more situational something is, the more amazing that thing should be in that situation compared to alternatives. The level 9 and 13 assassin abilities are extremely situational and basically require the DM to make plans around it. That's fine, but the payoff isn't really worth it. Imposter is ok I guess but it rarely will come up and when it does, disguise self and expertise in deception is going to get the job fine and much faster. If you need a fake identity for yourself (and only yourself), Infiltration Expertise does a good job assuming you have a week to make it. But expertise in a forgery kit will likely get the job done fine and again much faster.
If you're caught out of stealth or go after the target in initiative, your level 3 ability is a non factor. Also, attacking at advantage will mean you are going to crit 9.75% of the time anyway, so in those cases it's also wasted. If you're in a campaign with no real infiltration opportunities that those level 9 and 13 assassin abilities can shine in, and if you find yourself constantly missing out on Assassinate, you basically have no subclass. That's why it's bad.
All that said, if your group and campaign are in an stealth/infiltration heavy campaign where everyone is some degree of sneaky, and you take Alert and find a way to get advantage on Initiative (weapon of warning maybe), you're probably going to have a lot of fun.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
The Assassin's main feature however is almost completely out of your hand. Half of the feature is pretty much completely luck based since even if you surprise the enemy they can have higher initiative so you don't gain advantage against them and the other half, surprising the enemy, rarely ever happens since it requires you to actively pick the fight yourself and the enemy not seeing it coming instead of the DM deciding it's time for a fight (be it a random encounter or for narrative reasons). This almost never happens. Usually when there're fights it's because you're in a hostile environment, it's a random encounter or because things got heated in a social encounter.
I don't find that to be true. I have played multiple groups with one DM and we had parties that regularly surprised enemies and others that rarely or even never did.
Basically if your party is made up of people with high dex and you use stealth you will surprise fair numbers. If you have a Ranger cast pass without trace you will surprise almost everyone.
I have had other parties with the same DM and many of the same players and we never surprise anyone. One party I am currently playing is like this, we have a gal in plate and another that uses guns, so we are the only ones who are ever surprised.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
the key was out "front and stealthy" the team just needs to be far enough behind to be unnoticeable. in a dungeon that more often than not means just behind the closest door. also all the rogue needs is one enemy with a poor enough PP to not notice [any] threat for a surprise round to occur. For reference I did a search of 2664 Monsters 924 Have a passive perception 12 or below. why 12 because many adventurers at least take +2 for dex because of armor or get prof in stealth. that means pass without trace would auto succeed 34% of monsters {including monsters above cr 20.} that's with one spell and nothing else ............ just rolling the dice+ 2fromdex+prof would get you 50/60% of a surprise round for encounters {pass without trace makes it almost guaranteed}.
Note: these are rough numbers.
it really isn't that hard to get quite often if the party playing like a real adventuring team{ as apposed to avatars who know their playing a cr balanced game} good scouting technique and approach goes a long way {hence the 10'pole reference a while back}. every party member would want a surprise round as often as possible to save effort and resources for the riskier threats
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
the key was out "front and stealthy" the team just needs to be far enough behind to be unnoticeable. in a dungeon that more often than not means just behind the closest door. also all the rogue needs is one enemy with a poor enough PP to not notice [any] threat for a surprise round to occur. For reference I did a search of 2664 Monsters 924 Have a passive perception 12 or below. why 12 because many adventurers at least take +2 for dex because of armor or get prof in stealth. that means pass without trace would auto succeed 34% of monsters {including monsters above cr 20.} that's with one spell and nothing else ............ just rolling the dice+ 2fromdex+prof would get you 50/60% of a surprise round for encounters {pass without trace makes it almost guaranteed}.
Note: these are rough numbers.
it really isn't that hard to get quite often if the party playing like a real adventuring team{ as apposed to avatars who know their playing a cr balanced game} good scouting technique and approach goes a long way {hence the 10'pole reference a while back}. every party member would want a surprise round as often as possible to save effort and resources for the riskier threats
But that isnt how it works. If their passive perception is high enough to spot ANYONE. If even a single enemy does then there is no surprise round. And how far ahead is far enough ahead to not see the allies? Is that two rounds away? 30ft? 60ft? 100? How much cover is needed? what if there is no cover? It is needlessly complex and doesn't do anything to make the game work.
Sure, you absolutely can stealth ahead as well but you are assuming stealth makes you invisible. If there is no cover or anything to block Line of sight there is NO stealth. And sure. If you have a very specific spell, pass without trace it becomes far more reasonable. But that requires you knowing you are going to encounter something, or just perma stealthing and using resources constantly. And if you are just stealthing constantly without any reason to that is going to feel real meta gamey.
Moving stealthy is also moving at half speed, so you are also costing the team extra possible random encounters too.
But that isnt how it works. If their passive perception is high enough to spot ANYONE. If even a single enemy does then there is no surprise round. And how far ahead is far enough ahead to not see the allies? Is that two rounds away? 30ft? 60ft? 100? How much cover is needed? what if there is no cover? It is needlessly complex and doesn't do anything to make the game work.
This is not really true RAW.
First there is an optional rule for group checks. If the DM uses group ckeck rules for stealth, the enemy is surprised as long as at least half the party succeeds. Even if the DM is not using the rules for group checks, if you are using pass without trace it will not be uncommon that everyone passes the check, even the 8 Dex Paladin in plate.
Second, RAW those enemies without a passive perception high enough can be surprised even if everyone is not surprised. So you can have some enemies surprised and others not surprised, if every enemy has the same PP this is not the case, but if you have multiple values it is very possible to surprise some and not all.
For example party of Rogue Wizard and Fighter are sneaking up on 2 orcs (PP10) and 1 Drow Mage (PP14). Rogue rolls an 11 stealth, wizard rolls a 15, Fighter rolls a 16.
If the DM is using the rules for group checks, your group surprises ALL of the enemies. If the DM is not using the rules for group checks, your group surprises the orcs, but not the Drow.
For the sake of this discussion, lets say the DM is not using group checks so the orcs are surprised and the Drow is not. Now lets say those enemies are sneaking too, and lets say your party members have a PP of 10 (fighter), 12 (wizard) and 18 (Rogue). Lets say the orcs both roll a 13 and the Drow rolls a 14.
So we have -
The Fighter is surprised
The Wizard is surprised
Both the orcs are surprised
The Rogue is not surprised
The Drow is not surprised
Everyone rolls initiative, anyone who is surprised is surprised until their initiative count. They can not take actions, bonus actions or reactions until after their first turn (when they are not longer surprised). So we would go down the order, the Rogue and the Drow would go in the first round, everyone else could take a reaction in the first round AFTER their initiative count. In the second round everyone acts as normal.
Assassin 3 is situational but great when it works (which requires the party isn't surprised and the rogue rolls well on initiative should be once per fight about one fight in two). On its own this is fine and probably better than the phantom.
Assassin 9 takes a week. It's more or less a ribbon downtime ability that almost never comes up and when it does it's seldom more useful than the Disguise Self spell.
Assassin 13 is advantage on one specific use of one specific skill. And takes three hours - we hich most adventures don't allow. Again it's little more useful than Disguise Self and takes ages. Meh.
Assassin 17 is really just a limited doubling up on assassin 3 that's harder to apply. It's your second meaningful ability.
Compare with the Phantom. The assassin probably has a better extra damage ability - but the level 9 is both more damage and information gathering. And at level 13 the phantom assassin can walk through walls. 17 is of course reliable extra damage.
Just because there are better ones doesn't mean the Assassin is bad.
My personal favorites are Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler.
The assassin is bad because it relies on a mechanic that is unreliable and poorly worded. A mechanic that relies on the entire party working with you to get ANY. Mileage. It also has two features that should be a single ribbon feature.
Fwiw, it seems WotC recognizes that features that key off surprised don't end up working well. Bugbear recently had their surprise-keyed feature opened up in MoM. I'm anticipating they'll address the same in Assassin in the 2024 PHB update.
Arcane Trickster, Soulknife is the best skill monkey in the game but doesn’t get a good combat buff until level 9. Again at level 9, the Phantom Rogue is awesome but is lackluster before then. Swashbuckler is decent if you want to play a melee Rogue.
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The assassin from 3.5e was the best possible rogue build probably ever. You started the first level of assassin with death attack, which after studying your opponent for 3 rounds on a successful hit allowed you to either paralyze or kill your opponent (your choice) every odd level from 1st to 9th you get a plus to your sneak attack, and every even level a plus to poison resistance, uncanny Dodge for free at level 3, improved uncanny Dodge at level 5 and hide in plain sight at level 8. You also got spells machine or assassin at level 10 you would have up to level 4 spells some of which weren't to bad. Pass without trace, deep slumber, misdirection and dimension door just to name a few.
In my opinion there was never a better rogue build than assassin. Arcane trickster is fun to play, and the duelist was pretty great if you were playing a long campaign, 4 levels in rogue and 3 levels in fighter would set you up to meet the requirements.
If you want my opinion, all the rouge subclasses are situational and don't have features that are made to appeal to minmaxers. Apparently, that's what rouge subclasses are like. They're all weak and situational. And the assassin is no exception.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
To me the whole game is situational. and if people keep saying Half of the Original subclasses are "bad" because of downtime or situational abilities, the real problem is certain parts of the Roleplaying game system are being underutilized or undermined.
remember the 10' pole is what made Roleplaying great.
I couldn't agree more. Soon, we'll be saying that damage isn't useful because it's situational and only helps in combat.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Situational is fine. As long as situations aren't once or twice in a campaign. And that the situations do not require the entire party to play into it for a key ability that defines a character to even be used at all.
Situational is fine. But there is a balance. Too situational is bad. too common can also be bad. The assassinate feature is the defining feature of the assassin and because of that it needs to be usable enough to be worth being the key feature. Features you can rarely use should be ribbon features that are a nice extra that add spice to a game.
I get more out of Swashbucker. You basically have to work hard to not get sneak attack. Shadow Monk 6 / Swashbuckler - is fun. Shadowstep to isolated foes to get sneak attack with advantage on every turn. If your target's buddy steps over, shadowstep to a new target, rinse, and repeat.
If you are creative an Arcane Trickster with the right spells and feats is effective in just about any situation.
In a 1V1 an Arcane Trickster would frustrate the crap out of a min-maxed DPR build. "Hey Mr. Sharpshooter-CBE were you planning on using that hand crossbow? Too bad my mage hand is holding your case of bolts!"
I sorta agree with this but the more situational something is, the more amazing that thing should be in that situation compared to alternatives. The level 9 and 13 assassin abilities are extremely situational and basically require the DM to make plans around it. That's fine, but the payoff isn't really worth it. Imposter is ok I guess but it rarely will come up and when it does, disguise self and expertise in deception is going to get the job fine and much faster. If you need a fake identity for yourself (and only yourself), Infiltration Expertise does a good job assuming you have a week to make it. But expertise in a forgery kit will likely get the job done fine and again much faster.
If you're caught out of stealth or go after the target in initiative, your level 3 ability is a non factor. Also, attacking at advantage will mean you are going to crit 9.75% of the time anyway, so in those cases it's also wasted. If you're in a campaign with no real infiltration opportunities that those level 9 and 13 assassin abilities can shine in, and if you find yourself constantly missing out on Assassinate, you basically have no subclass. That's why it's bad.
All that said, if your group and campaign are in an stealth/infiltration heavy campaign where everyone is some degree of sneaky, and you take Alert and find a way to get advantage on Initiative (weapon of warning maybe), you're probably going to have a lot of fun.
You can and usually should achieve surprise in a random encounter if you're doing your job right as a Rogue: you should be out front, stealthy and perceptive. However, as we've discussed in this thread, Assassins have no tools at all for Initiative shenanigans. Now that Harengon exist Assassins are less bad, simply because there's a race that can get very good at initiative.
I don't find that to be true. I have played multiple groups with one DM and we had parties that regularly surprised enemies and others that rarely or even never did.
Basically if your party is made up of people with high dex and you use stealth you will surprise fair numbers. If you have a Ranger cast pass without trace you will surprise almost everyone.
I have had other parties with the same DM and many of the same players and we never surprise anyone. One party I am currently playing is like this, we have a gal in plate and another that uses guns, so we are the only ones who are ever surprised.
But that’s not how it works. If your team gets seen, even if you aren’t, no surprise round. Random encounters 90% of the time are when something stumbles into your team. And the only way to guarantee it is to basically murder anything you see without any talking.
the feature should just be if you are hidden at the start of combat. Cut the “my teammates can ruin this for me” out of the feature entirely.
the key was out "front and stealthy" the team just needs to be far enough behind to be unnoticeable. in a dungeon that more often than not means just behind the closest door. also all the rogue needs is one enemy with a poor enough PP to not notice [any] threat for a surprise round to occur. For reference I did a search of 2664 Monsters 924 Have a passive perception 12 or below. why 12 because many adventurers at least take +2 for dex because of armor or get prof in stealth. that means pass without trace would auto succeed 34% of monsters {including monsters above cr 20.} that's with one spell and nothing else ............ just rolling the dice+ 2fromdex+prof would get you 50/60% of a surprise round for encounters {pass without trace makes it almost guaranteed}.
Note: these are rough numbers.
it really isn't that hard to get quite often if the party playing like a real adventuring team{ as apposed to avatars who know their playing a cr balanced game} good scouting technique and approach goes a long way {hence the 10'pole reference a while back}. every party member would want a surprise round as often as possible to save effort and resources for the riskier threats
But that isnt how it works. If their passive perception is high enough to spot ANYONE. If even a single enemy does then there is no surprise round. And how far ahead is far enough ahead to not see the allies? Is that two rounds away? 30ft? 60ft? 100? How much cover is needed? what if there is no cover? It is needlessly complex and doesn't do anything to make the game work.
Sure, you absolutely can stealth ahead as well but you are assuming stealth makes you invisible. If there is no cover or anything to block Line of sight there is NO stealth. And sure. If you have a very specific spell, pass without trace it becomes far more reasonable. But that requires you knowing you are going to encounter something, or just perma stealthing and using resources constantly. And if you are just stealthing constantly without any reason to that is going to feel real meta gamey.
Moving stealthy is also moving at half speed, so you are also costing the team extra possible random encounters too.
This is not really true RAW.
First there is an optional rule for group checks. If the DM uses group ckeck rules for stealth, the enemy is surprised as long as at least half the party succeeds. Even if the DM is not using the rules for group checks, if you are using pass without trace it will not be uncommon that everyone passes the check, even the 8 Dex Paladin in plate.
Second, RAW those enemies without a passive perception high enough can be surprised even if everyone is not surprised. So you can have some enemies surprised and others not surprised, if every enemy has the same PP this is not the case, but if you have multiple values it is very possible to surprise some and not all.
For example party of Rogue Wizard and Fighter are sneaking up on 2 orcs (PP10) and 1 Drow Mage (PP14). Rogue rolls an 11 stealth, wizard rolls a 15, Fighter rolls a 16.
If the DM is using the rules for group checks, your group surprises ALL of the enemies. If the DM is not using the rules for group checks, your group surprises the orcs, but not the Drow.
For the sake of this discussion, lets say the DM is not using group checks so the orcs are surprised and the Drow is not. Now lets say those enemies are sneaking too, and lets say your party members have a PP of 10 (fighter), 12 (wizard) and 18 (Rogue). Lets say the orcs both roll a 13 and the Drow rolls a 14.
So we have -
The Fighter is surprised
The Wizard is surprised
Both the orcs are surprised
The Rogue is not surprised
The Drow is not surprised
Everyone rolls initiative, anyone who is surprised is surprised until their initiative count. They can not take actions, bonus actions or reactions until after their first turn (when they are not longer surprised). So we would go down the order, the Rogue and the Drow would go in the first round, everyone else could take a reaction in the first round AFTER their initiative count. In the second round everyone acts as normal.
Assassin 3 is situational but great when it works (which requires the party isn't surprised and the rogue rolls well on initiative should be once per fight about one fight in two). On its own this is fine and probably better than the phantom.
Assassin 9 takes a week. It's more or less a ribbon downtime ability that almost never comes up and when it does it's seldom more useful than the Disguise Self spell.
Assassin 13 is advantage on one specific use of one specific skill. And takes three hours - we hich most adventures don't allow. Again it's little more useful than Disguise Self and takes ages. Meh.
Assassin 17 is really just a limited doubling up on assassin 3 that's harder to apply. It's your second meaningful ability.
Compare with the Phantom. The assassin probably has a better extra damage ability - but the level 9 is both more damage and information gathering. And at level 13 the phantom assassin can walk through walls. 17 is of course reliable extra damage.
Just because there are better ones doesn't mean the Assassin is bad.
My personal favorites are Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler.
The assassin is bad because it relies on a mechanic that is unreliable and poorly worded. A mechanic that relies on the entire party working with you to get ANY. Mileage. It also has two features that should be a single ribbon feature.
it’s a fun class. But it needs a buff
Fwiw, it seems WotC recognizes that features that key off surprised don't end up working well. Bugbear recently had their surprise-keyed feature opened up in MoM. I'm anticipating they'll address the same in Assassin in the 2024 PHB update.
Arcane Trickster, Soulknife is the best skill monkey in the game but doesn’t get a good combat buff until level 9. Again at level 9, the Phantom Rogue is awesome but is lackluster before then. Swashbuckler is decent if you want to play a melee Rogue.