Arcane Trickster, Soulknife is the best skill monkey in the game but doesn’t get a good combat buff until level 9. Again at level 9, the Phantom Rogue is awesome but is lackluster before then. Swashbuckler is decent if you want to play a melee Rogue.
I'd argue that soul knife gets a good combat buff at level 3. Psychic damage to bypass physical resistance/immunity and built in dual wield throwing means that you can actually have a thrown combat style that doesn't instantly run out of magic weapons. Being able to attack as a bonus action is a big justification for being in melee, so being able to do that at range and not throwing yourself recklessly into danger is a massive boost to survivability.
Fwiw, it seems WotC recognizes that features that key off surprised don't end up working well. Bugbear recently had their surprise-keyed feature opened up in MoM. I'm anticipating they'll address the same in Assassin in the 2024 PHB update.
Arcane Trickster, Soulknife is the best skill monkey in the game but doesn’t get a good combat buff until level 9. Again at level 9, the Phantom Rogue is awesome but is lackluster before then. Swashbuckler is decent if you want to play a melee Rogue.
I'd argue that soul knife gets a good combat buff at level 3. Psychic damage to bypass physical resistance/immunity and built in dual wield throwing means that you can actually have a thrown combat style that doesn't instantly run out of magic weapons. Being able to attack as a bonus action is a big justification for being in melee, so being able to do that at range and not throwing yourself recklessly into danger is a massive boost to survivability.
I would say in most circumstances that’s a non-issue though. If you have a DM who’s throwing resistant/immune creatures at you without giving you magic items then the psychic blades are huge. But that’s far from the norm, at least in my games.
The bonus action attack does an average of 6 damage it hits. That’s just not worth giving to your bonus action IMO. If I’m a melee Rogue I don’t want to stand there and take attacks with my low AC and HP. I will want to disengage.
Arcane Trickster, Soulknife is the best skill monkey in the game but doesn’t get a good combat buff until level 9. Again at level 9, the Phantom Rogue is awesome but is lackluster before then. Swashbuckler is decent if you want to play a melee Rogue.
I'd argue that soul knife gets a good combat buff at level 3. Psychic damage to bypass physical resistance/immunity and built in dual wield throwing means that you can actually have a thrown combat style that doesn't instantly run out of magic weapons. Being able to attack as a bonus action is a big justification for being in melee, so being able to do that at range and not throwing yourself recklessly into danger is a massive boost to survivability.
I would say in most circumstances that’s a non-issue though. If you have a DM who’s throwing resistant/immune creatures at you without giving you magic items then the psychic blades are huge. But that’s far from the norm, at least in my games.
The bonus action attack does an average of 6 damage it hits. That’s just not worth giving to your bonus action IMO. If I’m a melee Rogue I don’t want to stand there and take attacks with my low AC and HP. I will want to disengage.
The benefit isn't exactly that you function in games without magic items, or the obvious damage of the bonus attack. It's the fact that you have two chances to activate sneak attack, which is better than the aim for a bonus action since you can still move and it's technically better damage. Also the fact it works with other sources of advantage. It's also not really a melee rogue, it's a rogue that functions at 60 ft away while doing damage like it's in melee (ignoring team synergies for generating extra opportunity attacks).
The reason the psychic damage type matters is that it can be hard to have multiple magic weapons for dual wielding, or have enough at range. If you have a magical bow then you are stuck doing one attack a turn, which sucks if you miss. You might have a magic hand crossbow but then you need to take a feat. You could have multiple magic weapons for melee but then you need to hope for those instead of a better utility item early on (If I had to pick another uncommon magic item, the cloak/boots of elvenkind exist).
TLDR Soulknife are actually a significant combat upgrade if you remember that melee rogues have better DPR than ranged rogues and it lets you do it at ranged without feat/magic item investment.
The bonus action attack does an average of 6 damage it hits. That’s just not worth giving to your bonus action IMO. If I’m a melee Rogue I don’t want to stand there and take attacks with my low AC and HP. I will want to disengage.
The bigger factor of the bonus action is that it gives you another chance to hit if you missed with the first, or if you elected not to Sneak Attack on your first hit to see if you can crit on your second since the level 9 feature is able to make missing a smaller probability than critting. You also don't need to stand the there with a low AC, since you can use the Psychic Blades from range.
Edit: decided second paragraph was off-topic for the thread, so removed it.
I would say in most circumstances that’s a non-issue though. If you have a DM who’s throwing resistant/immune creatures at you without giving you magic items then the psychic blades are huge. But that’s far from the norm, at least in my games.
The last character I had that actually died fell at the hands of a Wererat we were fighting at level 2 without any silver or magical weapons. As the DM pointed out when we cried foul - spells could damage it and we could use Hex or Hunters Mark and get the rider damage from a hit. Also it was not a TPK. My character died but the others soldiered on.
Also he pointed out he was throwing the blades. Unless you get a magic boomarang weapon it is going be pretty rare to have enough thrown magic weapons to do that as a base tactic at any level. Say you are 11th level - you probably have a magic weapon, maybe even a main and two backups, but you are not going to have enough to throw magic daggers for 6 rounds.
For my money, Arcane Trickster wins out. Every table will put emphasis on different needs, but in our current campaign my backup PC is an Arcane Trickster and there is just so much utility the class provides. The boosted Mage Hand is so useful. Many spells play into the stealth aspect that Rogues thrive on. And adding Booming Blade to your Sneak Attack can really make that damage scale.
The Assassin subclass does have some serious perks in combat. But they are a bit situational. I'm a fan of the utility of the AT, and there is almost always a good option available.
Arcane Trickster is basically Rogue on steroids. The Illusion and Enchantment schools of magic complement what you want to do with your Rogue most of the time, and the handful of times they don't, you have four spells from the other schools.
Swashbuckler basically has perpetual advantage. Something that combines very well with sneak attack.
Assassin's features just don't compare to those two, and the other Rogue archetypes are better too.
I note no one named the Rogue subclass Thief and this is before the coming nerf to the few things that did work on it to make it even more lacking. I hope Wizards is reading this...
I note no one named the Rogue subclass Thief and this is before the coming nerf to the few things that did work on it to make it even more lacking. I hope Wizards is reading this...
Thief is an awesome "rogue" but bad at the "rogue" archetype. The key is it optimizes use of non rogue features and requires one of several build paths using at least feats and probably multiclassing.
Potentially a bow user could get a regular attack with a pre-poison arrow and then hit with a vial for some fun nova damage.
You could also do a trap master build kiting enemies into caltrops or bear traps. This however requires teamwork and planning.
But my favorite thief is the shady doctor using healer's kits with their bonus action. Healer gets you roughly 1 free healing "slot" per pc. You can then potion or cast heal(mc) with your main action.
These all have several things in common.
1. They dependent on fast hands.
2. They are sub archetypes not main ones and use niche ideas.
3. They require advanced game knowledge and tactics.
As someone currently playing a Horizon Walker Ranger / Assassin, I can confirm a lot is situational. You have to have a DM and party members willing to work with you to truly maximize your abilities. Even then the multi-class makes a huge difference as well for extra attacks. Alert feat is also something highly suggested.
But when it all comes together it is fun to auto crit with multiple attacks then auto advantage on the next round and dump sharpshooter into the mix.
The thing that really makes assassin bad as a subclass isn't the relative strength or weakness of its abilities compared to other subclasses. It's the relative weakness of its abilities compared to the apparent strength of its abilities.
If you're just looking over the abilities the level 3 ability looks pretty strong, it's only when you think about the rest of the party and the overall situations you're likely to find yourself in that you realize how difficult it is to actually use. For example, if you look at mastermind instead, the ability is similarly strong or weak depending on your party and the situations you find yourself in, but it's more obvious from a casual reading that that is the case.
And the main reason people say that it isn't a good subclass is because they simply don't know how to play an assassin the right way. If they knew what they were doing in the game their choice of race, as well as other things, would be very different. Because it's just not great game playing to make Goofball decisions and then expect for your character to function properly, even if it's all fantasy based.
I know... it's an RPG. But There Are Rules To This. And just because you can choose to be anything you want, it doesn't mean that you should to play the absolute craziest and absurd character ever to be an Assassin Rogue.
To me the problem is not the level 3 powers which if you just default to advantage when you go first is quite good on an early striker. Its that level 9/13 are purely roleplay features that take a long time to get going (level 9 takes 7 days, level 13 3 hours). These are worse than ribbon features. They are only useful in a single very specific style of game AND the DM still has to play up to your abilities. You could be in an infiltration campaign and if you aren't given 7 days you will never use the 9th level ability. That is the definition of a bad ability. Given most campaigns end before 13 the subclass has one great feature (advantage in round 1 when you go first), a highly situational great feature (Crits in surprise rounds), and a almost unusable bad feature. Also disguise and poisoner's kit.
And the main reason people say that it isn't a good subclass is because they simply don't know how to play an assassin the right way. If they knew what they were doing in the game their choice of race, as well as other things, would be very different. Because it's just not great game playing to make Goofball decisions and then expect for your character to function properly, even if it's all fantasy based.
I know... it's an RPG. But There Are Rules To This. And just because you can choose to be anything you want, it doesn't mean that you should to play the absolute craziest and absurd character ever to be an Assassin Rogue.
Gotta love these "everyone is wrong except for me" bullshit takes. Don't you hear yourself when you say stuff like that? The edition isn't new nor is it some kind of niche system not many people are playing. If it were actually good the rating across the community wouldn't be the way it is. Fact is that the things that make the subclass "good" are highly situational and often just don't come together unless the DM heavily plays into your hands all the time.
While many people are in denial, there are several instances where the community at large has incorrect interpretation.(many of wich became sage advice answers)
People still get many rules like poison wrong all the time. Speaking of poison. There can exist a spot where a poison harvesting Assassin can do quite well but it requires teamwork from players and understanding from the dm. Which isn't a universal experience.
Still dms and players in the community might not hurt from a little more of the "reasonable use expectations" mentally.
And the main reason people say that it isn't a good subclass is because they simply don't know how to play an assassin the right way. If they knew what they were doing in the game their choice of race, as well as other things, would be very different. Because it's just not great game playing to make Goofball decisions and then expect for your character to function properly, even if it's all fantasy based.
I know... it's an RPG. But There Are Rules To This. And just because you can choose to be anything you want, it doesn't mean that you should to play the absolute craziest and absurd character ever to be an Assassin Rogue.
Gotta love these "everyone is wrong except for me" bullshit takes. Don't you hear yourself when you say stuff like that? The edition isn't new nor is it some kind of niche system not many people are playing. If it were actually good the rating across the community wouldn't be the way it is. Fact is that the things that make the subclass "good" are highly situational and often just don't come together unless the DM heavily plays into your hands all the time.
While many people are in denial, there are several instances where the community at large has incorrect interpretation.(many of wich became sage advice answers)
People still get many rules like poison wrong all the time. Speaking of poison. There can exist a spot where a poison harvesting Assassin can do quite well but it requires teamwork from players and understanding from the dm. Which isn't a universal experience.
Still dms and players in the community might not hurt from a little more of the "reasonable use expectations" mentally.
The issue with the assassin is that it is poorly written. the detail understanding is an incorrect interpretation? That is a reflection on how it is written. Assassins are so circumstantial in a way that I struggle to find in any other class. And not just in the ribbon features. Entire sections of the class are useless in 90% of campaigns, and are not supports for universal features. Niche features should not be the main points of a class.
I am honestly not 100% sure what you mean by the reasonable use expectations mentality to be honest in this context?
he subclass has one great feature (advantage in round 1 when you go first),
I'm not really sure I'd call that "great", honestly. It's certainly useful, but finds its greatest use in non-rogue builds (the Assassin/Gloomstalker/Fighter I see mentioned pretty often for example). In a rogue, it's 1 attack that gets advantage that first round unless you have a bonus action attack from something. Steady Aim can do that on its own for a lot of pure rogues.
And the main reason people say that it isn't a good subclass is because they simply don't know how to play an assassin the right way. If they knew what they were doing in the game their choice of race, as well as other things, would be very different. Because it's just not great game playing to make Goofball decisions and then expect for your character to function properly, even if it's all fantasy based.
I know... it's an RPG. But There Are Rules To This. And just because you can choose to be anything you want, it doesn't mean that you should to play the absolute craziest and absurd character ever to be an Assassin Rogue.
Gotta love these "everyone is wrong except for me" bullshit takes. Don't you hear yourself when you say stuff like that? The edition isn't new nor is it some kind of niche system not many people are playing. If it were actually good the rating across the community wouldn't be the way it is. Fact is that the things that make the subclass "good" are highly situational and often just don't come together unless the DM heavily plays into your hands all the time.
While many people are in denial, there are several instances where the community at large has incorrect interpretation.(many of wich became sage advice answers)
People still get many rules like poison wrong all the time. Speaking of poison. There can exist a spot where a poison harvesting Assassin can do quite well but it requires teamwork from players and understanding from the dm. Which isn't a universal experience.
Still dms and players in the community might not hurt from a little more of the "reasonable use expectations" mentally.
The issue with the assassin is that it is poorly written. the detail understanding is an incorrect interpretation? That is a reflection on how it is written. Assassins are so circumstantial in a way that I struggle to find in any other class. And not just in the ribbon features. Entire sections of the class are useless in 90% of campaigns, and are not supports for universal features. Niche features should not be the main points of a class.
I am honestly not 100% sure what you mean by the reasonable use expectations mentality to be honest in this context?
Reasonable use expectations means that if a player chooses a class-subclass. Everyone at the table understands that's the type of play your interested in. The team agrees that sometimes it's nessicary to play to other players styles. Example The full plate guy may downgrade armor or accept passwithout trace a "reasonable" amount of time for party balance. And the rogue accepts kick-in the door style a reasonable amount of time.
Similarly the dm should use senarios that are balanced to where sometimes the rogue will be the star and sometimes they will not. The dm will have enough sandbox room in their senarios for each of the party members to have a possible path (even if some are more difficult)
While it doesn't solve all the design issues, it does bring the gap between build choices close enough to where the whole table has a fun adventure.
I'd argue that soul knife gets a good combat buff at level 3. Psychic damage to bypass physical resistance/immunity and built in dual wield throwing means that you can actually have a thrown combat style that doesn't instantly run out of magic weapons. Being able to attack as a bonus action is a big justification for being in melee, so being able to do that at range and not throwing yourself recklessly into danger is a massive boost to survivability.
Oh that's a fun thought.
I would say in most circumstances that’s a non-issue though. If you have a DM who’s throwing resistant/immune creatures at you without giving you magic items then the psychic blades are huge. But that’s far from the norm, at least in my games.
The bonus action attack does an average of 6 damage it hits. That’s just not worth giving to your bonus action IMO. If I’m a melee Rogue I don’t want to stand there and take attacks with my low AC and HP. I will want to disengage.
The benefit isn't exactly that you function in games without magic items, or the obvious damage of the bonus attack. It's the fact that you have two chances to activate sneak attack, which is better than the aim for a bonus action since you can still move and it's technically better damage. Also the fact it works with other sources of advantage. It's also not really a melee rogue, it's a rogue that functions at 60 ft away while doing damage like it's in melee (ignoring team synergies for generating extra opportunity attacks).
The reason the psychic damage type matters is that it can be hard to have multiple magic weapons for dual wielding, or have enough at range. If you have a magical bow then you are stuck doing one attack a turn, which sucks if you miss. You might have a magic hand crossbow but then you need to take a feat. You could have multiple magic weapons for melee but then you need to hope for those instead of a better utility item early on (If I had to pick another uncommon magic item, the cloak/boots of elvenkind exist).
TLDR Soulknife are actually a significant combat upgrade if you remember that melee rogues have better DPR than ranged rogues and it lets you do it at ranged without feat/magic item investment.
The bigger factor of the bonus action is that it gives you another chance to hit if you missed with the first, or if you elected not to Sneak Attack on your first hit to see if you can crit on your second since the level 9 feature is able to make missing a smaller probability than critting. You also don't need to stand the there with a low AC, since you can use the Psychic Blades from range.
Edit: decided second paragraph was off-topic for the thread, so removed it.
The last character I had that actually died fell at the hands of a Wererat we were fighting at level 2 without any silver or magical weapons. As the DM pointed out when we cried foul - spells could damage it and we could use Hex or Hunters Mark and get the rider damage from a hit. Also it was not a TPK. My character died but the others soldiered on.
Also he pointed out he was throwing the blades. Unless you get a magic boomarang weapon it is going be pretty rare to have enough thrown magic weapons to do that as a base tactic at any level. Say you are 11th level - you probably have a magic weapon, maybe even a main and two backups, but you are not going to have enough to throw magic daggers for 6 rounds.
For my money, Arcane Trickster wins out. Every table will put emphasis on different needs, but in our current campaign my backup PC is an Arcane Trickster and there is just so much utility the class provides. The boosted Mage Hand is so useful. Many spells play into the stealth aspect that Rogues thrive on. And adding Booming Blade to your Sneak Attack can really make that damage scale.
The Assassin subclass does have some serious perks in combat. But they are a bit situational. I'm a fan of the utility of the AT, and there is almost always a good option available.
Arcane Trickster is basically Rogue on steroids. The Illusion and Enchantment schools of magic complement what you want to do with your Rogue most of the time, and the handful of times they don't, you have four spells from the other schools.
Swashbuckler basically has perpetual advantage. Something that combines very well with sneak attack.
Assassin's features just don't compare to those two, and the other Rogue archetypes are better too.
I note no one named the Rogue subclass Thief and this is before the coming nerf to the few things that did work on it to make it even more lacking. I hope Wizards is reading this...
Thief is an awesome "rogue" but bad at the "rogue" archetype. The key is it optimizes use of non rogue features and requires one of several build paths using at least feats and probably multiclassing.
Potentially a bow user could get a regular attack with a pre-poison arrow and then hit with a vial for some fun nova damage.
You could also do a trap master build kiting enemies into caltrops or bear traps. This however requires teamwork and planning.
But my favorite thief is the shady doctor using healer's kits with their bonus action. Healer gets you roughly 1 free healing "slot" per pc. You can then potion or cast heal(mc) with your main action.
These all have several things in common.
1. They dependent on fast hands.
2. They are sub archetypes not main ones and use niche ideas.
3. They require advanced game knowledge and tactics.
As someone currently playing a Horizon Walker Ranger / Assassin, I can confirm a lot is situational. You have to have a DM and party members willing to work with you to truly maximize your abilities. Even then the multi-class makes a huge difference as well for extra attacks. Alert feat is also something highly suggested.
But when it all comes together it is fun to auto crit with multiple attacks then auto advantage on the next round and dump sharpshooter into the mix.
The thing that really makes assassin bad as a subclass isn't the relative strength or weakness of its abilities compared to other subclasses. It's the relative weakness of its abilities compared to the apparent strength of its abilities.
If you're just looking over the abilities the level 3 ability looks pretty strong, it's only when you think about the rest of the party and the overall situations you're likely to find yourself in that you realize how difficult it is to actually use. For example, if you look at mastermind instead, the ability is similarly strong or weak depending on your party and the situations you find yourself in, but it's more obvious from a casual reading that that is the case.
The Assassin Rogue Is A Pretty Good Subclass.
And the main reason people say that it isn't a good subclass is because they simply don't know how to play an assassin the right way. If they knew what they were doing in the game their choice of race, as well as other things, would be very different. Because it's just not great game playing to make Goofball decisions and then expect for your character to function properly, even if it's all fantasy based.
I know... it's an RPG. But There Are Rules To This. And just because you can choose to be anything you want, it doesn't mean that you should to play the absolute craziest and absurd character ever to be an Assassin Rogue.
To me the problem is not the level 3 powers which if you just default to advantage when you go first is quite good on an early striker. Its that level 9/13 are purely roleplay features that take a long time to get going (level 9 takes 7 days, level 13 3 hours). These are worse than ribbon features. They are only useful in a single very specific style of game AND the DM still has to play up to your abilities. You could be in an infiltration campaign and if you aren't given 7 days you will never use the 9th level ability. That is the definition of a bad ability. Given most campaigns end before 13 the subclass has one great feature (advantage in round 1 when you go first), a highly situational great feature (Crits in surprise rounds), and a almost unusable bad feature. Also disguise and poisoner's kit.
While many people are in denial, there are several instances where the community at large has incorrect interpretation.(many of wich became sage advice answers)
People still get many rules like poison wrong all the time. Speaking of poison. There can exist a spot where a poison harvesting Assassin can do quite well but it requires teamwork from players and understanding from the dm. Which isn't a universal experience.
Still dms and players in the community might not hurt from a little more of the "reasonable use expectations" mentally.
The issue with the assassin is that it is poorly written. the detail understanding is an incorrect interpretation? That is a reflection on how it is written. Assassins are so circumstantial in a way that I struggle to find in any other class. And not just in the ribbon features. Entire sections of the class are useless in 90% of campaigns, and are not supports for universal features. Niche features should not be the main points of a class.
I am honestly not 100% sure what you mean by the reasonable use expectations mentality to be honest in this context?
I'm not really sure I'd call that "great", honestly. It's certainly useful, but finds its greatest use in non-rogue builds (the Assassin/Gloomstalker/Fighter I see mentioned pretty often for example). In a rogue, it's 1 attack that gets advantage that first round unless you have a bonus action attack from something. Steady Aim can do that on its own for a lot of pure rogues.
Reasonable use expectations means that if a player chooses a class-subclass. Everyone at the table understands that's the type of play your interested in. The team agrees that sometimes it's nessicary to play to other players styles. Example The full plate guy may downgrade armor or accept passwithout trace a "reasonable" amount of time for party balance. And the rogue accepts kick-in the door style a reasonable amount of time.
Similarly the dm should use senarios that are balanced to where sometimes the rogue will be the star and sometimes they will not. The dm will have enough sandbox room in their senarios for each of the party members to have a possible path (even if some are more difficult)
While it doesn't solve all the design issues, it does bring the gap between build choices close enough to where the whole table has a fun adventure.
That’s what is meant when people argue that the features and type of play of this subclass is dependent on others, be it the DM or the party.
And that is one of the main reason this subclass is frowned upon. It can work and be great, just don’t think it will all the time.
Hyrkali
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