Ya i kind of does matter what Alignment he plays. A Evil character is not going to do good things just like a Good Character is not going to do Evil things. That is the whole point of the Alignment System, Ive been called out for playing a Lawful Good character for not helping a town gaurd in a fight. If he was playing a C/N then he is all out from him self if hes playing a good character then theres a problem. Untill we know what it is i cant really say if its wrong or not.
Nah. A good Player (not to be confused with a Good Aligned Character) should see that other players in his group are upset/aren't having fun, and do one of 2 things.
Stop doing the thing that nobody likes, because you're here to have a good time with other people, and if you want to play alone maybe video games are a better choice.
Have a conversation with the players at the table, and work out a compromise. Maybe this still involves you stopping the thing, maybe you explain to everyone so that they can take in game actions to look our for their best interest, maybe the DM has the town guard catch you stealing and now you're whole crew is on the lam and that's a fun story and adventure because your LG paladin feels beholden to you but also the law and now he has character dilemmas.
"My character is an *******, <insert terrible thing that ruins group dynamics> is what he would do!" is a bad excuse. I say this as someone who just recently had a table blow up because I withheld information from other characters in game since the character wouldn't have felt the information was worth mentioning (and nobody asked him/tried to get the information themselves). My druid had been in the form of a wolf and was able to find a dead body by smell. It turned out that body was a knight the rest of the party had been looking for for weeks, but my character was unaware of this and just assumed it was another unimportant dead body. He walked away without alerting anyone, and the player who had sworn to find this lost knight lost her shit. I felt justified because she "could have searched the area herself".
Our DM stepped in after the game and had everyone talk about expectations and cooperation. I realized that if I was going to make a choice like this again which would create conflict among players, I would need a strong RP incentive, not just "my character doesn't care about the same things your character does" because that's not the table's expectations. He made it clear nobody was wrong, but that we all need to be on the same page in order for everyone to have fun. Since my character JUST came into the group (2nd session with the group) and the player who had issue with me was not present for session 0, it was understood that there hadn't been a meeting of the minds on all the players' expectations.
Now I understand that I can't just leave major quest plot points untold without good RP reason, and the other player knows that they may need to use metagame knowledge to push for an in game solution to their problems if my RP choice has been properly explained ("hmm, this tomb seems like somewhere great to hide a body, maybe the murderer covered their tracks by putting the knight in one of the coffins").
Let me give you an example. Ever played Monopoly? Most people play a pretty straight game. I usually cheat every chance that presents itself.
1st time: Did you catch me? Did you get upset, mad or just get all happy you caught me...figuring I wouldn't try again. Shame on me, right?
2nd time: Were you more aware that I was prone to cheating? Were you paying more attention? Did I make a mistake? Shame on you?
Usually at this point, the person will stop playing, ignore it or....starting trying to cheat as well.
3rd time: If the game is still going, cheating is now part of the game. Or the person won't feel terrible if they lose....because I cheated. Then you play a game without cheating at all & still win. People you're playing with will then assume I was cheating....because I won.
In this instance, alignments don't have anything to do with this as this guy is an admitted cheater and has consistently disrupted multiple games he has been in. This is a player problem, not an alignment problem, not a metagame problem, not a group problem, and not a DM problem.
I would have blown this guy out of the freakin' airlock a long time ago.
I mostly agree. This seems like a disruptive/problematic player, which then becomes a DM problem because DM's are the de facto group organizers/leaders/conflict resolvers. We could discuss if that's fair to make this the DM's problem to fix, but it's not really the point here. The basic question was "Is this guy being a jerk at the table?" and there we both agree the answer is yes.
That was mostly the point I was trying to make, and bringing in an example from my games about how a similar thing happened and didn't result in me throwing a ***** fit and blaming every other player for not enjoying me being a dick at the table.
I find it pretty astonishing that every time I see a post from RainFaireMan is regarding some problem he has with his party (no offence intended).
I'm so happy you mentioned this. I thought I was losing my mind.
My two cents on the whole thing:
DnD isn't communism. What's mine isn't yours and what's yours isn't mine. When I take it, it's mine but until then, there's a reason we don't have a massive shared inventory.
If I palmed some crap off of someone else, I earned it. It should be mine. I took the risk, I reaped the reward. If I offer to loan it to you or give it to you, it is through my generosity and interest in the group that I do so, not because YOU feel that the group loot should be round robin. My group understands my mentality on this (Except when it comes to the deck of many things, holy CRAP was that a nightmare in our group.)
When something is stolen or taken within our group, it belongs to the person who is carrying it and we haggle with one another just as you do in real life. It isn't MEANT to be a "I have to do this for the good of all" group thing. That's FORCING someone's alignment and I put that on par with god modding or meta gaming. YOU do not tell me how MY character should behave. Period.
So with that said, here's the fact of the matter. If they meta game because they dislike what you are doing, it is because there is a communication break down at the player level on what your character is and what is to be expected. And from the given situation, I'm going to say that they believe that whatever is happening, should only happen if it involves an improvement to the group, even through self sacrifice. If your character falls out of this manifesto, then you are ostracized, through meta gaming. You played your character as a thief, as intended, within the rules of RP, provided we are getting the whole story. They are meeting this RP with meta gaming nonsense. That is unacceptable and as a DM, I'd squash that.
Now, that being said, in my experience, if the party is behaving like this, it isn't an isolated incident. It is through persisting annoyance with your actions and that the group doesn't like you in general. We had this situation before in my group with someone whom I replaced. He played an obnoxious orc that constantly tried to do things like punch a prince because he thought it was funny. When the group expectation is that he SHOULDN'T be punched and all you are ever doing is interfering with that expectation without any perceived benefits, the players themselves grow wary of that person in general and the meta gaming comes a flowing. They attacked and killed his character, reaped the loot and kicked him out. (There was also that matter that this guy was my wife's ex and he cheated on her so they were kicking him out anyway. Sooooo...yeah. Lol) I had several moments when I played a character in a similar manner. Jae was made a year ago or so as an immortal mystic brawler hot head who thought he was invincible because...well, he was. He was incredibly hard to kill and part of who he was was due to that fact. "I can do what I want because I can deal with the consequences."
But during the entire time I played him, I know for a fact that one of our players was CONSTANTLY enraged by my behavior because it was so far outside of the norm for her and Jae represented a personality type she loathed. Overtime, I humbled him up by going out of my way to try and get him killed and make him realize that he couldn't just do that all the time and he evolved into a hardy defender for the other characters. This was lost on that particular party member....actually almost none of them saw the change, except my DM I think, because well after I changed to a different character, a polar opposite, social elite guild trader with high end connections, they FREQUENTLY stopped a warlock with 20 charisma from bartering on their behalf.....Like....Cmon now. It wasn't until later that the distrust that I had originally bred into the group was broken. Now, I'm retiring that character for an assassin. A lawful evil assassin. In a relatively good party. So it's going to be a whole thing.
This turned into a rant.
TL:DR: Meta gaming is bad if it is because you are RPing your character as intended and that should be shut down at DM level. But it's understandable if you are frequently hindering the group with your character and your best bet at salvaging that is to evolve your character, to have him grow from an RP experience to be more compatible. But meta gaming is not the way to go.
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You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
List of Good characters/people that did bad things:
Clarke in The 100
Jesus (allegedly ransacked a market due to an anger fit)
Every Allied Soldiers in WW2 (Killing is bad, be it for a good reason or not)
That normally super nice guy that took his car while drunk
List of Evil characters/people that did good things:
Stalin in WW2 (he kinda defeated Hitler)
John Murphy in The 100
And many more
So here, you see, all is not black and white in the duality of good/evil... When you play DnD, you play a role, yes sometimes some character's personnality might hinder the group. The group is not the character, the characters make the group. I see much rant about "yeah but our fun is affected blah blah blah". But really, this is what the game is and if you aim at having a smooth, conflict free game, there is Baldur's Gate EE 1,2 and expansions. Let the adults play and navigate the sometimes rough, sometime smooth waves of social interactions. Your fun is not more important than your friend's fun.
Your friend's character ( and by the way, his money investment in the game) is none of your business. The DM has the job of guiding the players through character creation and make sure the party fits together.
This gave me flashbacks to a game I played. I was a thieving wizard, and by thieving, I mean from the party. I'd collect the loot list and sort out the selling and dividing (and take more than my fair share as was cutting off limbs and replacing them with sacred mithril versions, ahh 3rd ed). But the situation was reversed, everyone knew and hated it OOC, but IC no one knew (there was one time someone started to meta game but the GM quickly shot him down, it helped the GM thought it was funny)
Looking back, it was definitely a dick move, but easily done and to the rest of the party, they allowed it IC, they were the winners from it for roleplay. Again without the GM liking it, it also wouldn't have been possible.
Now? I think you always have to remember you have to play with these people OOC. So if things annoy people (and they are being reasonable) then alter or change what you are doing, for the fun of all.
I always remember overhearing how they were all waiting for an antimagic aura, so I was paralysed, then they could - together - find out why IC, work it out, then kill me and sell my body as was worth something like 100,000 gold ☺. So really it was bringing the (rest of the) party together 😉. Sadly the game ended before they all (paladins included) could murder me. Shame, would have been interesting.
Pickpocket always seems an issue in roleplay games. Then again it is on the computer rpg too. Alienate everyone, people talk, law wants you. It could make a lot of trouble for your group and in most cases, IC, they'd not want to adventure with you.
Sounds like a pretty shit way to play monopoly If your character doesn't care if they kick you to the curb when they find out, and you don't care if they decide they don't want to play with you anymore, carry on.
There are times stealing from the party, causing trouble for them by stealing from npcs is part of the game, this doesn't sound like it.
This being said, the rest of the party seems to want to resolve this out-of-game by punishing him through meta-gaming, and that is neither cool nor fair towards RainFaireMan, as much as his action can be considered dishonest and disruptive.
I can see an argument about the metagaming being frustrating but if his behavior is making the gaming experience worse for everyone else at the table they don't really owe him anything either.
I haven't messed around with pick-pocketing too much as a rogue yet but I find it fascinating and believe it can add some good flavor and consequences - both positive and negative to the game. I think it it would actually be fun to sneak around town while others are RP'ing and investigating quiet houses or locked doors to try breaking in with the Thieve's Tools and seeing if anything of interest is there. I also think it would be fun to roll Sleight of Hand checks after examining NPCs to try taking items from them without them knowing. If you were to fail, I imagine quite the scene would be made. Making quick coin here or there would be nice, and who knows, maybe you'll actually stumble across something rare.
I can see how depending on how you play it, or to what extreme you go, that a party may get frustrated. I wouldn't ever steal loot from my party, even if I had the opportunity to quickly snatch a whole box of loot before anyone. Our party usually discusses items and ultimately votes on the best person to pass it to if it is overwhelmingly obvious. Yea, at times we may receive an item that is so awesome that we don't want to part with it, but that's just part of the game. If your DM is any good they'll keep note of times like these and make sure loot is balanced appropriately. Everyone should get their chance of something nice when the time is right.
As players though, you should really have a conversation about the actions of others if you feel it to be hindering game play and overall reducing the fun factor in the first place.
IMO if it was taken from somewhere whilst the party was distracted, fair game. I'm not gonna meta and pull you up on it if my character didn't see.
But also, unless it's a evil/not really a jolly party campaign, I reckon stealing from the party (other than a joke/OKed in advance) is a no-no. You're meant to be a group working together is how I see it.
If you pickpocket 10 silver or 2 gold off of random NPCs, you aren't obligated to share the loot. But at my table, sharing the loot from dungeons is totally different.
At the end of the day it’s a part of the game for a reason wether he’s right or wrong doesn’t matter just that pickpocketings a part of the game people calling him confrontational is fine but I think that’s mean I mean I play Skyrim as a pickpocketer pure klepto not because it’s fun stealing but it’s fun getting caught getting chased by the guards and such is a rush. If he wants to steal let him but don’t punish him out of character it’s not fair
Long story short, made a Rogue. Every single time I used Pick Pocket or Sleight of Hand everyone at the table would freak out.
"You're stealing!", they'd say.
Me, "Yes....that's kinda the point of Pick Pocket/Sleight of Hand".
"But you're stealing loot off NPCs and not telling us about it, keeping it for yourself", party members.
Me, "Well....yes. Since your character doesn't know about it....neither do you. You can't be mad about something you don't know about, didn't see happen."
"You're stealing from the party, that's an evil action!", party accusations fly.
"Stole from an NPC, palmed a gem from a chest (that I had to disarm & unlock), NEVER did I steal from the party. I stole...'pre-party' split. That isn't stealing from the party, just getting ''dibs'. Again, you have knowledge of what I did...but your characters do not.", me.
Later on, characters are loaning each other money (as needed) to buy magic items. "I could use a bit of gold to buy this nice magic hand crossbow that's available.", me. "No, you should have plenty of (stolen) money to buy what you need!?", meta-gaming party members.
(roll to pick pocket)
You're a bad rogue stereotype. Stealing from the party and the, "It's what my character would do!" argument is the hallmark of chaotic stupid aligned players.
Stop it. You give the rest of us rogue players bad names.
We are having a similar problem in my group. Our Rogue thinks his character would steal every chance he gets and some chances he doesn't get. He is constantly talking about when we get to the town I'll have to see what I can steal.
Now to some extent I think we owe him some room to play his character the way he wants to play his character. As long as he bears the consequences of his actions then he should have some room to play it his way. The problem comes when the rest of the party wishes to establish and maintain a good relationship with this town and he is willing to roll the dice and throw all that away.
On top of that, if he gets just thrown in prison, we have to get him out or essentially dump him from the game if the DM doesn't wish to give him plot armor and let him out of prison. But worse is that we are his known associates so we at least get painted with the same brush in the eyes of the public.
All this is before we get to the subject of stealing from the party. As far as I am concerned if you get caught stealing from the party, at best you lose all your valuables and any treasure you might have claim to until we get back to a civilization and go our separate ways. At worst, I'm not against killing your character as a PC in your party. Steal from me and I'll treat you like any other NPC that tries to steal from me, AND I'll expect help from the rest of the party in exacting my justice.
Prestealing ... <shakes head in astonishment and disappointment> ... one time our rogue went over to the chest quickly after the fight was apparently done and said, I check the chest for traps. The DM said, you don't see any traps. He said, I check to see if the chest is locked. ... You unlock the chest and you find 300 gold. Rogue announces, "Hey look, I found two hundred gold everyone." That was funny but if he tried to claim the extra hundred gold he would have walked with a limp for the rest of his life.
At the end of the day, I think we need to give our rogue friends some room to "play" their character, but if they violate the social contract that you don't screw over the party then things start to get real in character and out.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
You can get away with more if you actually build rapport with the party. The rogue in my current campaign will definitely try to pocket off the top, but is actively RPing and building rapport with the rest of the group so it's kinda enduring rather than infuriating. But if the first thing you do with a new DND group is steal from them and then ask them for money later and get upset they won't lend you anything, sounds like you didn't put the footwork in to build relationships with your DND party
We are having a similar problem in my group. Our Rogue thinks his character would steal every chance he gets and some chances he doesn't get. He is constantly talking about when we get to the town I'll have to see what I can steal.
Now to some extent I think we owe him some room to play his character the way he wants to play his character. As long as he bears the consequences of his actions then he should have some room to play it his way. The problem comes when the rest of the party wishes to establish and maintain a good relationship with this town and he is willing to roll the dice and throw all that away.
On top of that, if he gets just thrown in prison, we have to get him out or essentially dump him from the game if the DM doesn't wish to give him plot armor and let him out of prison. But worse is that we are his known associates so we at least get painted with the same brush in the eyes of the public.
All this is before we get to the subject of stealing from the party. As far as I am concerned if you get caught stealing from the party, at best you lose all your valuables and any treasure you might have claim to until we get back to a civilization and go our separate ways. At worst, I'm not against killing your character as a PC in your party. Steal from me and I'll treat you like any other NPC that tries to steal from me, AND I'll expect help from the rest of the party in exacting my justice.
Prestealing ... <shakes head in astonishment and disappointment> ... one time our rogue went over to the chest quickly after the fight was apparently done and said, I check the chest for traps. The DM said, you don't see any traps. He said, I check to see if the chest is locked. ... You unlock the chest and you find 300 gold. Rogue announces, "Hey look, I found two hundred gold everyone." That was funny but if he tried to claim the extra hundred gold he would have walked with a limp for the rest of his life.
At the end of the day, I think we need to give our rogue friends some room to "play" their character, but if they violate the social contract that you don't screw over the party then things start to get real in character and out.
If a PC gets caught thieving around town, it depends on the outlook of your own PC. You can quite clearly disown the thief; and the player will have to introduce a new character.
The GM should provide some way for the party to notice the thief is stealing mid-dungeon. Perhaps his bag is a lot heavier than when he came in - a perception check?
Maybe the locked chest doesn't contain what you think a LOCKED chest should contain.
I can see this from both sides, and as a player who is in love with the rogue class, I’m having to carefully tread this line myself.
My rogue, who is lawful evil but smart enough to play himself off as lawful good, has stolen a small fortune in only a couple of sessions, around 1,500gp. He went from brand new starting PC to the richest in the group within 2 sessions. I stole it all from vendors and other sources. I had to be careful not to disrupt the group though by getting in their way of their business. To introduce myself to the group I even stole one of their items, which they valued, then returned it to them and said I’m every so sorry I think you lost this. I passed my check, they failed theirs (2 levels in div wizard ftw haha) and now I’m part of the group and gelled well.
The bad side is now, even though I passed my deception check for my lies of just finding it and so the group, or specifically that one player who failed his check to see if I was lying, should believe me. However even after the rolls, both favorable to myself, he still says he doesn’t trust me, and I’m a thief etc. Even though his character has no ideas any of it.
The fact is, if you steal from the group, 99% of the time they’re going to come at you meta-gaming, and 99% of the time you’re just being a jerk. Be smart and creative and steal from NPC sources. Also, Pre-looting is most definitely stealing from the group.
The bad side is now, even though I passed my deception check for my lies of just finding it and so the group, or specifically that one player who failed his check to see if I was lying, should believe me. However even after the rolls, both favorable to myself, he still says he doesn’t trust me, and I’m a thief etc. Even though his character has no ideas any of it.
The fact is, if you steal from the group, 99% of the time they’re going to come at you meta-gaming, and 99% of the time you’re just being a jerk. Be smart and creative and steal from NPC sources. Also, Pre-looting is most definitely stealing from the group.
This isn't really meta-gaming, even if you can't tell that someone's lying, that doesn't mean you actually believe them, it just means you can't be sure whether they're telling the truth. In the real world, someone who introduces themself to my group of friends by returning something that wasn't likely to get lost by accident is going to be suspicious, even if their story checks out. I might not object outright to them hanging out with the group, but I'd likely keep my eye on them for a while. All the more so if they demonstrate that they have the ability to steal things and lie convincingly.
If a rogue is pickpocketting random NPC's in my game - fine, not an issue as long as they understand the ramifications of getting caught. If a player is stealing loot meant for the party and found during adventures just because he is a thief and that's what thieves do... well when the fighter finds out and kicks the snot out of him - that's what fighters do, when the cleric stops healing him - that's just what clerics do, when the wizard finds out and refuses to buff him any more, or the warlock curses him or outright just starts throwing EB around, the bard mocks him in song and verse in every town and city they go to, the paladin simply takes him into custody etc - it's just what they would do. And the player of the thief - well he is down a character and strangely stops getting invites to the game -perhaps the emails are getting blocked by the spam filter, perhaps whatsapp is glitching.
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"My character is an *******, <insert terrible thing that ruins group dynamics> is what he would do!" is a bad excuse. I say this as someone who just recently had a table blow up because I withheld information from other characters in game since the character wouldn't have felt the information was worth mentioning (and nobody asked him/tried to get the information themselves). My druid had been in the form of a wolf and was able to find a dead body by smell. It turned out that body was a knight the rest of the party had been looking for for weeks, but my character was unaware of this and just assumed it was another unimportant dead body. He walked away without alerting anyone, and the player who had sworn to find this lost knight lost her shit. I felt justified because she "could have searched the area herself".
Our DM stepped in after the game and had everyone talk about expectations and cooperation. I realized that if I was going to make a choice like this again which would create conflict among players, I would need a strong RP incentive, not just "my character doesn't care about the same things your character does" because that's not the table's expectations. He made it clear nobody was wrong, but that we all need to be on the same page in order for everyone to have fun. Since my character JUST came into the group (2nd session with the group) and the player who had issue with me was not present for session 0, it was understood that there hadn't been a meeting of the minds on all the players' expectations.
Now I understand that I can't just leave major quest plot points untold without good RP reason, and the other player knows that they may need to use metagame knowledge to push for an in game solution to their problems if my RP choice has been properly explained ("hmm, this tomb seems like somewhere great to hide a body, maybe the murderer covered their tracks by putting the knight in one of the coffins").
I mostly agree. This seems like a disruptive/problematic player, which then becomes a DM problem because DM's are the de facto group organizers/leaders/conflict resolvers. We could discuss if that's fair to make this the DM's problem to fix, but it's not really the point here. The basic question was "Is this guy being a jerk at the table?" and there we both agree the answer is yes.
That was mostly the point I was trying to make, and bringing in an example from my games about how a similar thing happened and didn't result in me throwing a ***** fit and blaming every other player for not enjoying me being a dick at the table.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
List of Good characters/people that did bad things:
List of Evil characters/people that did good things:
So here, you see, all is not black and white in the duality of good/evil... When you play DnD, you play a role, yes sometimes some character's personnality might hinder the group. The group is not the character, the characters make the group. I see much rant about "yeah but our fun is affected blah blah blah". But really, this is what the game is and if you aim at having a smooth, conflict free game, there is Baldur's Gate EE 1,2 and expansions. Let the adults play and navigate the sometimes rough, sometime smooth waves of social interactions. Your fun is not more important than your friend's fun.
Your friend's character ( and by the way, his money investment in the game) is none of your business. The DM has the job of guiding the players through character creation and make sure the party fits together.
Wow.
This gave me flashbacks to a game I played. I was a thieving wizard, and by thieving, I mean from the party. I'd collect the loot list and sort out the selling and dividing (and take more than my fair share as was cutting off limbs and replacing them with sacred mithril versions, ahh 3rd ed). But the situation was reversed, everyone knew and hated it OOC, but IC no one knew (there was one time someone started to meta game but the GM quickly shot him down, it helped the GM thought it was funny)
Looking back, it was definitely a dick move, but easily done and to the rest of the party, they allowed it IC, they were the winners from it for roleplay. Again without the GM liking it, it also wouldn't have been possible.
Now? I think you always have to remember you have to play with these people OOC. So if things annoy people (and they are being reasonable) then alter or change what you are doing, for the fun of all.
I always remember overhearing how they were all waiting for an antimagic aura, so I was paralysed, then they could - together - find out why IC, work it out, then kill me and sell my body as was worth something like 100,000 gold ☺. So really it was bringing the (rest of the) party together 😉. Sadly the game ended before they all (paladins included) could murder me. Shame, would have been interesting.
Pickpocket always seems an issue in roleplay games. Then again it is on the computer rpg too. Alienate everyone, people talk, law wants you. It could make a lot of trouble for your group and in most cases, IC, they'd not want to adventure with you.
Sounds like a pretty shit way to play monopoly
If your character doesn't care if they kick you to the curb when they find out, and you don't care if they decide they don't want to play with you anymore, carry on.
There are times stealing from the party, causing trouble for them by stealing from npcs is part of the game, this doesn't sound like it.
I can see an argument about the metagaming being frustrating but if his behavior is making the gaming experience worse for everyone else at the table they don't really owe him anything either.
I haven't messed around with pick-pocketing too much as a rogue yet but I find it fascinating and believe it can add some good flavor and consequences - both positive and negative to the game. I think it it would actually be fun to sneak around town while others are RP'ing and investigating quiet houses or locked doors to try breaking in with the Thieve's Tools and seeing if anything of interest is there. I also think it would be fun to roll Sleight of Hand checks after examining NPCs to try taking items from them without them knowing. If you were to fail, I imagine quite the scene would be made. Making quick coin here or there would be nice, and who knows, maybe you'll actually stumble across something rare.
I can see how depending on how you play it, or to what extreme you go, that a party may get frustrated. I wouldn't ever steal loot from my party, even if I had the opportunity to quickly snatch a whole box of loot before anyone. Our party usually discusses items and ultimately votes on the best person to pass it to if it is overwhelmingly obvious. Yea, at times we may receive an item that is so awesome that we don't want to part with it, but that's just part of the game. If your DM is any good they'll keep note of times like these and make sure loot is balanced appropriately. Everyone should get their chance of something nice when the time is right.
As players though, you should really have a conversation about the actions of others if you feel it to be hindering game play and overall reducing the fun factor in the first place.
IMO if it was taken from somewhere whilst the party was distracted, fair game. I'm not gonna meta and pull you up on it if my character didn't see.
But also, unless it's a evil/not really a jolly party campaign, I reckon stealing from the party (other than a joke/OKed in advance) is a no-no. You're meant to be a group working together is how I see it.
Player since Aug 2018
Proud mother to
half-elf noble rogue (thief), grandpa tortle cleric (light/Pelor), firbolg ranger (monster slayer),
half-elf warlock (archfey), fire genasi barbarian (ancestral guardian), rock gnome cleric (death/Hades)
If you pickpocket 10 silver or 2 gold off of random NPCs, you aren't obligated to share the loot. But at my table, sharing the loot from dungeons is totally different.
There's a reason why AL bans it outright.
At the end of the day it’s a part of the game for a reason wether he’s right or wrong doesn’t matter just that pickpocketings a part of the game people calling him confrontational is fine but I think that’s mean I mean I play Skyrim as a pickpocketer pure klepto not because it’s fun stealing but it’s fun getting caught getting chased by the guards and such is a rush. If he wants to steal let him but don’t punish him out of character it’s not fair
You're a bad rogue stereotype. Stealing from the party and the, "It's what my character would do!" argument is the hallmark of chaotic stupid aligned players.
Stop it. You give the rest of us rogue players bad names.
We are having a similar problem in my group. Our Rogue thinks his character would steal every chance he gets and some chances he doesn't get. He is constantly talking about when we get to the town I'll have to see what I can steal.
Now to some extent I think we owe him some room to play his character the way he wants to play his character. As long as he bears the consequences of his actions then he should have some room to play it his way. The problem comes when the rest of the party wishes to establish and maintain a good relationship with this town and he is willing to roll the dice and throw all that away.
On top of that, if he gets just thrown in prison, we have to get him out or essentially dump him from the game if the DM doesn't wish to give him plot armor and let him out of prison. But worse is that we are his known associates so we at least get painted with the same brush in the eyes of the public.
All this is before we get to the subject of stealing from the party. As far as I am concerned if you get caught stealing from the party, at best you lose all your valuables and any treasure you might have claim to until we get back to a civilization and go our separate ways. At worst, I'm not against killing your character as a PC in your party. Steal from me and I'll treat you like any other NPC that tries to steal from me, AND I'll expect help from the rest of the party in exacting my justice.
Prestealing ... <shakes head in astonishment and disappointment> ... one time our rogue went over to the chest quickly after the fight was apparently done and said, I check the chest for traps. The DM said, you don't see any traps. He said, I check to see if the chest is locked. ... You unlock the chest and you find 300 gold. Rogue announces, "Hey look, I found two hundred gold everyone." That was funny but if he tried to claim the extra hundred gold he would have walked with a limp for the rest of his life.
At the end of the day, I think we need to give our rogue friends some room to "play" their character, but if they violate the social contract that you don't screw over the party then things start to get real in character and out.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
You can get away with more if you actually build rapport with the party. The rogue in my current campaign will definitely try to pocket off the top, but is actively RPing and building rapport with the rest of the group so it's kinda enduring rather than infuriating. But if the first thing you do with a new DND group is steal from them and then ask them for money later and get upset they won't lend you anything, sounds like you didn't put the footwork in to build relationships with your DND party
If a PC gets caught thieving around town, it depends on the outlook of your own PC. You can quite clearly disown the thief; and the player will have to introduce a new character.
The GM should provide some way for the party to notice the thief is stealing mid-dungeon. Perhaps his bag is a lot heavier than when he came in - a perception check?
Maybe the locked chest doesn't contain what you think a LOCKED chest should contain.
I can see this from both sides, and as a player who is in love with the rogue class, I’m having to carefully tread this line myself.
My rogue, who is lawful evil but smart enough to play himself off as lawful good, has stolen a small fortune in only a couple of sessions, around 1,500gp. He went from brand new starting PC to the richest in the group within 2 sessions. I stole it all from vendors and other sources. I had to be careful not to disrupt the group though by getting in their way of their business. To introduce myself to the group I even stole one of their items, which they valued, then returned it to them and said I’m every so sorry I think you lost this. I passed my check, they failed theirs (2 levels in div wizard ftw haha) and now I’m part of the group and gelled well.
The bad side is now, even though I passed my deception check for my lies of just finding it and so the group, or specifically that one player who failed his check to see if I was lying, should believe me. However even after the rolls, both favorable to myself, he still says he doesn’t trust me, and I’m a thief etc. Even though his character has no ideas any of it.
The fact is, if you steal from the group, 99% of the time they’re going to come at you meta-gaming, and 99% of the time you’re just being a jerk. Be smart and creative and steal from NPC sources. Also, Pre-looting is most definitely stealing from the group.
This isn't really meta-gaming, even if you can't tell that someone's lying, that doesn't mean you actually believe them, it just means you can't be sure whether they're telling the truth. In the real world, someone who introduces themself to my group of friends by returning something that wasn't likely to get lost by accident is going to be suspicious, even if their story checks out. I might not object outright to them hanging out with the group, but I'd likely keep my eye on them for a while. All the more so if they demonstrate that they have the ability to steal things and lie convincingly.
If a rogue is pickpocketting random NPC's in my game - fine, not an issue as long as they understand the ramifications of getting caught. If a player is stealing loot meant for the party and found during adventures just because he is a thief and that's what thieves do... well when the fighter finds out and kicks the snot out of him - that's what fighters do, when the cleric stops healing him - that's just what clerics do, when the wizard finds out and refuses to buff him any more, or the warlock curses him or outright just starts throwing EB around, the bard mocks him in song and verse in every town and city they go to, the paladin simply takes him into custody etc - it's just what they would do. And the player of the thief - well he is down a character and strangely stops getting invites to the game -perhaps the emails are getting blocked by the spam filter, perhaps whatsapp is glitching.