tl;dr: Cunning Strike is a useful combat tool. You can skip everything else unless you want to build a "poisoner"-themed character, which can be useful but not optimal.
The Poisoned Condition
First and foremost, we obviously need to know about the Poisoned Condition. > You have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.
Cunning Strike
Now, let's take a look at the Poison Cunning Strike feature and whether it can be useful.
Cunning Strike > Poison (Cost: 1d6). You add a toxin to your strike, forcing the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Poisoned condition for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the Poisoned target repeats the save, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Usually, the DC should be 15.
For now, the only 2024 monster stat blocks I can look at are from Scions of Elemental Evil. This is a Level 4 adventure, and we can see that the Fire Elemental and the Stone Golem have immunity to the Poisoned condition and Poison damage, while the Succubus and Incubus only have immunity to Poison damage.
Now, we have to do a bit of math to see how useful it is. Let's use the Tough Boss warhammer attack with +5 to hit and 12 damage.
First, if you remove 1d6, this means you deal -3.5 damage.
They have +5 CON saves, so they're poisoned 50% of the time. This reduces their chances to hit by about 25%. On the second round, they still might be poisoned.
If they attack a 15 AC target for two rounds, they deal 80% of their damage four times. So, 19 and 19 damage.
If we use Poisoned Cunning Strike, they deal 67% of their damage on their first two attacks and 74% on the second turn. That’s 16 damage and 18 damage.
So, on average, we would reduce incoming damage by 4.
In-game, it really depends on your target and who it’s attacking. If it’s attacking a high-AC party member, you might reduce their chance of success from 50% to 30%. If it’s a low-value target, it’s easier to poison, but they might not have multi-attack or stay long enough in the fight.
Personally, it looks to me like the creature you want to weaken will usually have Poisoned Condition immunity or a high CON save.
I’d say, if you are absolutely certain the target is going to attack, has multi-attacks or high-damage single attacks, and isn’t immune to the Poisoned Condition, it’s worth using it. It looks to me like the ideal targets would be dexterity martial artists. They’re going to have lower Constitution and high-damage attacks, and probably multi-attacks.
Try to poison the enemy rogue before it gets to act!
Tool Proficiency
Rules-as-written, the Poisoner’s Kit can be somewhat useful at tier 1, but as you’ll see when I detail the DMG rules for harvesting poison, it’s really not that useful.
Basic Poison costs you 50 gold pieces to craft for 1d4 damage in melee or three times 1d4 at range. So, for melee, it’s really pointless. At range, if we assume you’ll hit 80% of the time, you’d add 2 points of poison damage over three rounds of combat.
I don’t think it’s worth the gold.
Feat: Poisoner
I find the PHB 2024 Poisoner Feat interesting, but I wouldn’t use it on any of my Thief.
First, you get Poisoner’s Kit proficiency, which will make your character better at identifying poison. It’s not a big deal, but it’s cool—a ribbon feature.
Then you need 1 hour of work and 50 gold pieces to craft two or more doses that deal 2d8 unresisted poison damage and apply the Poisoned condition for a turn, on a DC that should be about 15.
If you can apply this before combat, it’s amazing. That being said, you’ll likely need to use a Bonus Action every time you want to apply the effect. This means you won’t have the Bonus Action available for other actions, which you’ll need most of the time.
This can definitely be good, but the other feats are just so much better. Piercer will definitely give you a better damage increase, and Mage Slayer offers a free automatic mental save every Short Rest. Those are just two examples; there are many more.
Here, I’ll start by saying: just forget it. For a Thief, it’s not likely to be worth our time.
But, let’s see what we need to harvest poison: - Defeat a creature that will yield poison. - 1d6 minutes. - Poisoner’s Kit proficiency. - Nature proficiency. - Probably, a high Intelligence score or Expertise in Nature proficiency. - Succeed on a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check using a Poisoner’s Kit.
That’s a lot of things you won’t have.
Still, let’s say you defeated the creature, you have enough time, you have a 12 Intelligence score, are level 7, and have Poisoner’s Kit proficiency.
With those, you’d roll +7. That’s a 40% chance to succeed. If you have Nature proficiency, you roll with Advantage, which raises your odds to 64%. If you have Nature Expertise, that’s 80% success rate. Reliable Talent will make you roll 17 minimum, which prevents you from poisoning yourself, but that’s still not enough to harvest the poison, and you only have one chance.
Then there’s another problem: delivering the poison. Some poisons need to be ingested or come in contact with the skin, not through an injury. Good luck with those! Inhaled and Injury poisons are easier to deliver; both can be used with a Bonus Action. Inhaled requires a Saving Throw, and Injury needs a hit.
Oh and also, what poison did you get? That depends on the creature you harvested it from. It might not even be useful to start with.
It doesn't seem valuable on the rogue at all, but injury poisons can be set off on a miss with the graze property. I think poisons can be effectively harvested and used by an eldritch knight or psi warrior. A rogue might be able to efficiently collect poisons for their party members too.
This guide specifically focuses on the Thief subclass. I can’t speak to other Rogue subclasses, and as for other classes… well, I’m completely in the dark! I’m sure there are plenty of valid approaches for them, but my guide series is dedicated to exploring the Thief in detail.
That being said, if you ever see a player use poisons in a way that genuinely contributes to the party or enhances the narrative, feel free to let me know!
The Cunning Strike Poison feature is poorly worded. It requires a poisoner's kit but doesn't require or provide proficiency with the tool. It let's you add a poison to the attack weapon as part of the SA action and provides details on the poison effects. But there's no guidance on how the poison is acquired. Does that mean that that feature poison effects can be applied to enhance any poison, e.g. if you use basic poison, there's 1d4 additional poison damage on the weapon for 1 minute and the poisoned condition? Or can it apply the poisoned condition only on the turn when the SA is made (not how a poison should work)? If it's meant to enhance the effect and action economy of using poisons, then there might be synergy with the poisoner feat. This could be enhanced if the character had access to Hex giving the opponent disadvantage on Con saves and offsetting the SA cost.
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Failed perception check: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I understand your confusion, but you need to set aside the Basic Poison item. This feature is a separate thing entirely. It does exactly what is stated in its description—nothing more, nothing less. Furthermore, you don't need to acquire any poison to use this feature; you simply need to have a Poisoner's Kit in your character's possession.
To use this feature, you must hit a creature with a Sneak Attack, subtract 1d6 from the Sneak Attack damage, and have a Poisoner's Kit. It functions exactly as described, and that's it.
I guess I didn't fully explain my issue with it. I just used the basic poison item as an example (wondering if the effect stacks) but that's not the main point.
Rogue is a class with no inherent magical ability, but the way cunning strike poison is written it makes it seem "magical" because there are no details given on how the poison is made or applied. As you wrote, it just happens (as if by magic) as long as you have a poisoner's kit. For me playing out the fantasy of a non-magical thief, I'd like there to be some more detail about how the poison is made and quickly applied to the weapon. These are two separate but important considerations. For example, if it came with at least 1/2 proficiency in poisoner's kit to permit the character to craft doses of this specific poison (at minimal time and no gp cost?). But then the available poison is able to be quickly applied to the weapon as part of the attack which is an action economy benefit. Is there something special about the crafted poison that allows it to be applied quickly? Since Rogue is Dex based I imagine it's rather honed reflexes that permit a quick application of the poison. Logically then why shouldn't this work with any available (more powerful) poison? Or if you have previously applied poison to a weapon does the effect stack? Does that make sense?
Fred, also thanks for your effort in putting together this handbook. I'll be playing a 2024 Thief in a new campaign starting at tier 3 and your contributions here were really helpful!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Failed perception check: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You need to distinguish between mechanics and flavor. Mechanics are the rules as written, while flavor is your interpretation that fits your character and campaign.
For example, if you portray your character as gathering ingredients from monsters, preparing vials for quick use in combat, storing them on a belt, and using them when activating this feature, that’s your explanation.
Between, you are welcome. I'm happy that it's useful :P
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This post is part of Firemind’s Thief Handbook: 2024+ Edition—a comprehensive guide for the Thief subclass.
Poison
tl;dr: Cunning Strike is a useful combat tool. You can skip everything else unless you want to build a "poisoner"-themed character, which can be useful but not optimal.
The Poisoned Condition
First and foremost, we obviously need to know about the Poisoned Condition.
> You have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.
Cunning Strike
Now, let's take a look at the Poison Cunning Strike feature and whether it can be useful.
Cunning Strike
> Poison (Cost: 1d6). You add a toxin to your strike, forcing the target to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Poisoned condition for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the Poisoned target repeats the save, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Usually, the DC should be 15.
For now, the only 2024 monster stat blocks I can look at are from Scions of Elemental Evil. This is a Level 4 adventure, and we can see that the Fire Elemental and the Stone Golem have immunity to the Poisoned condition and Poison damage, while the Succubus and Incubus only have immunity to Poison damage.
Now, we have to do a bit of math to see how useful it is. Let's use the Tough Boss warhammer attack with +5 to hit and 12 damage.
First, if you remove 1d6, this means you deal -3.5 damage.
They have +5 CON saves, so they're poisoned 50% of the time. This reduces their chances to hit by about 25%. On the second round, they still might be poisoned.
If they attack a 15 AC target for two rounds, they deal 80% of their damage four times. So, 19 and 19 damage.
If we use Poisoned Cunning Strike, they deal 67% of their damage on their first two attacks and 74% on the second turn. That’s 16 damage and 18 damage.
So, on average, we would reduce incoming damage by 4.
In-game, it really depends on your target and who it’s attacking. If it’s attacking a high-AC party member, you might reduce their chance of success from 50% to 30%. If it’s a low-value target, it’s easier to poison, but they might not have multi-attack or stay long enough in the fight.
Personally, it looks to me like the creature you want to weaken will usually have Poisoned Condition immunity or a high CON save.
I’d say, if you are absolutely certain the target is going to attack, has multi-attacks or high-damage single attacks, and isn’t immune to the Poisoned Condition, it’s worth using it. It looks to me like the ideal targets would be dexterity martial artists. They’re going to have lower Constitution and high-damage attacks, and probably multi-attacks.
Try to poison the enemy rogue before it gets to act!
Tool Proficiency
Rules-as-written, the Poisoner’s Kit can be somewhat useful at tier 1, but as you’ll see when I detail the DMG rules for harvesting poison, it’s really not that useful.
Basic Poison costs you 50 gold pieces to craft for 1d4 damage in melee or three times 1d4 at range. So, for melee, it’s really pointless. At range, if we assume you’ll hit 80% of the time, you’d add 2 points of poison damage over three rounds of combat.
I don’t think it’s worth the gold.
Feat: Poisoner
I find the PHB 2024 Poisoner Feat interesting, but I wouldn’t use it on any of my Thief.
First, you get Poisoner’s Kit proficiency, which will make your character better at identifying poison. It’s not a big deal, but it’s cool—a ribbon feature.
Then you need 1 hour of work and 50 gold pieces to craft two or more doses that deal 2d8 unresisted poison damage and apply the Poisoned condition for a turn, on a DC that should be about 15.
If you can apply this before combat, it’s amazing. That being said, you’ll likely need to use a Bonus Action every time you want to apply the effect. This means you won’t have the Bonus Action available for other actions, which you’ll need most of the time.
This can definitely be good, but the other feats are just so much better. Piercer will definitely give you a better damage increase, and Mage Slayer offers a free automatic mental save every Short Rest. Those are just two examples; there are many more.
Harvesting Poisons
The DMG 2024 - Chapter 3: DM’s Toolbox details how to harvest poisons and which poisons can be harvested.
Here, I’ll start by saying: just forget it. For a Thief, it’s not likely to be worth our time.
But, let’s see what we need to harvest poison:
- Defeat a creature that will yield poison.
- 1d6 minutes.
- Poisoner’s Kit proficiency.
- Nature proficiency.
- Probably, a high Intelligence score or Expertise in Nature proficiency.
- Succeed on a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check using a Poisoner’s Kit.
That’s a lot of things you won’t have.
Still, let’s say you defeated the creature, you have enough time, you have a 12 Intelligence score, are level 7, and have Poisoner’s Kit proficiency.
With those, you’d roll +7. That’s a 40% chance to succeed. If you have Nature proficiency, you roll with Advantage, which raises your odds to 64%. If you have Nature Expertise, that’s 80% success rate. Reliable Talent will make you roll 17 minimum, which prevents you from poisoning yourself, but that’s still not enough to harvest the poison, and you only have one chance.
Then there’s another problem: delivering the poison. Some poisons need to be ingested or come in contact with the skin, not through an injury. Good luck with those! Inhaled and Injury poisons are easier to deliver; both can be used with a Bonus Action. Inhaled requires a Saving Throw, and Injury needs a hit.
Oh and also, what poison did you get? That depends on the creature you harvested it from. It might not even be useful to start with.
It doesn't seem valuable on the rogue at all, but injury poisons can be set off on a miss with the graze property. I think poisons can be effectively harvested and used by an eldritch knight or psi warrior. A rogue might be able to efficiently collect poisons for their party members too.
This guide specifically focuses on the Thief subclass. I can’t speak to other Rogue subclasses, and as for other classes… well, I’m completely in the dark! I’m sure there are plenty of valid approaches for them, but my guide series is dedicated to exploring the Thief in detail.
That being said, if you ever see a player use poisons in a way that genuinely contributes to the party or enhances the narrative, feel free to let me know!
The Cunning Strike Poison feature is poorly worded. It requires a poisoner's kit but doesn't require or provide proficiency with the tool. It let's you add a poison to the attack weapon as part of the SA action and provides details on the poison effects. But there's no guidance on how the poison is acquired. Does that mean that that feature poison effects can be applied to enhance any poison, e.g. if you use basic poison, there's 1d4 additional poison damage on the weapon for 1 minute and the poisoned condition? Or can it apply the poisoned condition only on the turn when the SA is made (not how a poison should work)? If it's meant to enhance the effect and action economy of using poisons, then there might be synergy with the poisoner feat. This could be enhanced if the character had access to Hex giving the opponent disadvantage on Con saves and offsetting the SA cost.
Failed perception check: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I understand your confusion, but you need to set aside the Basic Poison item. This feature is a separate thing entirely. It does exactly what is stated in its description—nothing more, nothing less. Furthermore, you don't need to acquire any poison to use this feature; you simply need to have a Poisoner's Kit in your character's possession.
To use this feature, you must hit a creature with a Sneak Attack, subtract 1d6 from the Sneak Attack damage, and have a Poisoner's Kit. It functions exactly as described, and that's it.
I guess I didn't fully explain my issue with it. I just used the basic poison item as an example (wondering if the effect stacks) but that's not the main point.
Rogue is a class with no inherent magical ability, but the way cunning strike poison is written it makes it seem "magical" because there are no details given on how the poison is made or applied. As you wrote, it just happens (as if by magic) as long as you have a poisoner's kit. For me playing out the fantasy of a non-magical thief, I'd like there to be some more detail about how the poison is made and quickly applied to the weapon. These are two separate but important considerations. For example, if it came with at least 1/2 proficiency in poisoner's kit to permit the character to craft doses of this specific poison (at minimal time and no gp cost?). But then the available poison is able to be quickly applied to the weapon as part of the attack which is an action economy benefit. Is there something special about the crafted poison that allows it to be applied quickly? Since Rogue is Dex based I imagine it's rather honed reflexes that permit a quick application of the poison. Logically then why shouldn't this work with any available (more powerful) poison? Or if you have previously applied poison to a weapon does the effect stack? Does that make sense?
Fred, also thanks for your effort in putting together this handbook. I'll be playing a 2024 Thief in a new campaign starting at tier 3 and your contributions here were really helpful!
Failed perception check: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You need to distinguish between mechanics and flavor. Mechanics are the rules as written, while flavor is your interpretation that fits your character and campaign.
For example, if you portray your character as gathering ingredients from monsters, preparing vials for quick use in combat, storing them on a belt, and using them when activating this feature, that’s your explanation.
Between, you are welcome. I'm happy that it's useful :P