I want to build the coolest Rogue Sniper. To start, i'm thinking Assassin for damage boost?? (Otherwise I’m not a fan of the class, really) Was thinking of using longbow as main wpn for distance and speed. What are your thoughts?
I think crossbows are a better narrative idea for a sniper. You could hide in a tree or on the otherside of a hill, just cresting, without having to address the glaring inconsistency that longbows are not real sneaky. That being said longbow works too. As a rule weapons are fairly well balanced and it is more about your class features and feat choices.
I have a dwarf ranger / rogue (hunter/thief) that uses an heavy crossbow, amoung other weapons, and could very much be played as a sniper.
I think it is important to specify whether you are an urban "hitman" or a wilderness "guerilla" type sniper. This could change multiclass viability and/or subclass choices.
Parting shot: lurker feat is a great pick for a sniper
I think crossbows are a better narrative idea for a sniper. You could hide in a tree or on the otherside of a hill, just cresting, without having to address the glaring inconsistency that longbows are not real sneaky. That being said longbow works too. As a rule weapons are fairly well balanced and it is more about your class features and feat choices.
I have a dwarf ranger / rogue (hunter/thief) that uses an heavy crossbow, amoung other weapons, and could very much be played as a sniper.
I think it is important to specify whether you are an urban "hitman" or a wilderness "guerilla" type sniper. This could change multiclass viability and/or subclass choices.
Parting shot: lurker feat is a great pick for a sniper
Do you mean the Skulker Feat it is awesome, I say crossbow is best for sniping hard to lay prone and use a Bow. Crossbow Expert Feat and Sharpshooter are also important Crossbow Expert gives you 2 attacks as just a rogue with the Hand Crossbow as it is a light one handed weapon so you get the Bonus Action attack with it.
This idea has been rolling around in my mind for a while. First, pick Bugbear as your race, this will give you an added 2d6 dmg. on the first round (this benefits from the Assassin's crit ability). Next, start with Rogue (for the skills), but then take 2 levels in fighter, taking the archery style and gaining action surge (for more damage).
You said that you were starting at level 5, so your starting character should be Rogue 3/ Fighter 2. The first time you level up, take the level in Fighter choosing the Champion Archetype, this will boost your crit range by 5% making you deal a lot of damage even without sneak attacks (you could pick Archer for the added effects but both are great). Make sure you only take 3 levels in another class, that way you still gain the Assassin's final ability (for maximum death).
For Feats, you need to get Skulker, and Sharpshooter, these will make you deal maximum damage (and blow past cover) as well as not revealing your location from shooting.
If you choose to take the Champion Archetype, your weapon of choice should be a Heavy Crossbow, but if you chose Arcane Archer, you should use a longbow so you can benefit from the Arcane Shots.
Personally I think Assassin is a trap of a subclass. This is purely my opinion. You don't always get your "core" ability off and at best, best, you use it once an encounter. I consider that a trap.
I love the idea of the Heavy Crossbow, but you need to Multi-class or Feat to get it. On the otherhand all you need is Elf to get the Longbow. Light crossbow it OK, 1d8, and great if you're not an elf. That said IF you have access to magic items crossbows are inferior. Bracers of Archery are boss and only work on bows not crossbows. I'm actually personally very disappointed that they've never given crossbows the love bows have.
You don't "need" Crossbow Expert, unless you plan on using hand crossbows. Because you're a Rogue you can Cunning Action away to not take an AoOs. If you don't have hand crossbow, you only have 1 attack a turn so I recommend using your Bonus Action to Stealth every turn, but this requires the ability to have Heavy Concealment, unless you're a Wood Elf and it's natural or a Lightfood Halfling with any medium creature.
Other subclasses: Inquisitive makes you a lie-detector. It allows you to use your Bonus Action to Insight Vs Deception to gain Sneak Attack if you wouldn't have it. This is useful if there is no concealment.
Scout is good. You get Expertise and proficiency with even more skills. Also has a Reaction you can use Skirmisher to move away without any AoOs. This is especially good IF you are going hand crossbow, as it lets you keep your bonus action free for the other attack.
When I think "Sniper" I think long range. Shortbow and Light crossbow are 80/320, heavy cross bow is 100/400, and longbow is 150/600. I've rarely actually had that kind of range matter. That said "sniper" could be more of a Close Quarters Combatant, especially if you hide, move, attack. If you have handcrossbow, crossbow expert, and sniper then you are firing 2 shots a turn at 120!
Have you looked at the Assassin's final ability?! It is a death on a failed save, AND A DOUBLE DAMAGE SNEAK ATTACK IF THEY SUCCEED! The final ability of the Inquisitive just makes you do an extra 3d6 damage. In addition, Assassin gives you a proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit, making you deal more damage. If you are an Assassin, you will be able to do more damage in one hit than an Inquisitive will do in like three.
1) I don't care about level 17 or level 20 abilities. I care a lot more about an ability I get at level 3 then one I get at level 17. Because I get to use the level 3 ability for 17 levels and I get to use level 17 ability for 3 levels. If we are going to compare 17th lvl abilities: The Inquisitive +3d6 happens every single turn of combat. Over a combat that can add up to a lot. the Scout's ability lets you get Sneak Attack against 2 different targets a turn. That's a possible extra 9d6+weapon damage a turn.
2) I think Poisoner's Kit is dog *@#%@. A "basic" poison costs 100 gold, so it still costs 50 gold with the kit, plus the down time days to produce. It works on 3 pieces of ammo or 1 attack and adds all of +1d4 damage, half on a DC:10 Con save. So you're looking at spending 50-100 gold to get +2d4 extra damage. dog @#*%@. All poisons cost too much for the return. They should be treated like minor consumable magic items and do more. Also if you really wanted it, you can get it with any tool-use.
3) I still I think Assassinate is a garbage ability. At best, once a combat you'll get surprise and get 1 attack with Advantage and auto-convert it to a critical. That's a lot of eggs in that one basket depending on getting surprise and winning init. Yes, in a "white room scenario" assuming all of those factor's is very cool. That assumes a lot. Plus that's all you do.
4) I'm not trying to give Quark_Lighttouch, a single idea of how to make a "best". Best is a relative term. I'm giving him him options so he can pick what's best. I'll take the Inquisitive's ability let me get consistent Sneak Attack on a dragon that is FLYING and I'm stuck in the open. I'll take the Scout's ability to move out of combat with no AoOs so I can have my bonus action open for another attack. I'll take the ability of the Arcane Trickster to use minor illusion or mold earth to create cover to hide behind and Stealth for Advantage and Sneak Attack when none exists.
Best is how you use it. Best is more then just who had the most DPS at the end of a combat. I'll take the ability to consistently do Sneak Attack damage when others can't. That alone will do more damage over time then a single crit.
I like the alternate perspective. I am actually playing around with tweaking the concept anyway. So, my party is small (3 players + DM) and we're rotating DM. DM's character goes away when their DM'ing. This is my backup character. 1st string is an Arcane Trickster.
Other characters in the party are Deep Gnome Bladesinger Wizard, a Lizardfolk Circle of the Moon Druid, and a War Domain Cleric (DM's character out of party)
My "Sniper" character sheet: ddb.ac/characters/4450588/PRmDHq
With such a small party, we are trying to shoot for versatility, and the long range of a true sniper may not be the best tactical choice. I'm thinking of sticking with the idea of an hitman, "sniper" vibe, but I think I need to be able to engage in melee when required also. That being said, I think having an extra use of Sneak Attack would be a great thing to have every round rather than a single hit. Could be the difference between removing one enemy from the board and two?
What is the ability that lets scout do an extra sneak attack?
Sudden Strike is a 17th ability. Basically if you take an Attack Action on your turn, you can make an additional attack as a Bonus Action. This attack can benefit from Sneak Attack, except only 1 target can be Sneak Attacked per turn. So the Rogue needs to attack 2 targets a turn to maximize the benefit.
I'm not sure if it's considered the best, but I'm currently playing a rogue. He will end up being a scout rogue with fighter (battlemaster). He will specialize in longbow with bow related feats, combat style, and items. Not min maxed in much capacity, but does quite well right now. Also, hes a goliath haha.
I've also been curious if monk (kensai) would be of any benefit as a multiclass.
I also feel assassinate is a trap. Too costly as a once per combat ability.
If you want to play a sniper, long range is important, the rest is about how determined you are to kill someone. Arrow and other munitions are broken 50% of the time. Rotgrubs, true polymorphed and transformed back by that nebulous mechanic of 0 damage but destruction or made into glass beads mounted on snapjaw arrow heads fired into people will place a rot grub inside someone, they are now dead unless lesser restoration is available. Now buying arrows with that or other nastier creatures would be expensive, but would they be 'poison' expensive (I feel your pain FMB, I really do, its priced to stop every party becoming poison blade monsters dealing 6d6+ a hit... Ah living the dream)
How about magma in the arrow? True polymorph could work on magma spooned out but not hardened. Congratulations your fantasy reverse engineering white phosphorous.
Look into firearms - I loathe them but some madman introduced pistols in WDH and where theres pistols muskets follow, and these are rapid firing for muzzle loaded weapons. Thats base damage, Sharpshooter is an obvious must pick choice, So what subclass? FMB I agree again. - Assassins work best as solo characters due to what constitutes surprise. The best you could hope is being far enough away from the party the prey is unaware of them and take your shot - but now you need to move position and evac back to your team if you couldnt one shot the vic, good luck! Next problem, as a sniper ask yourself why? Is your campaign always outside across long distances with little cover? Great, you might want to have perception as high as it goes - expertise in that and stealth, with a ghillie suit or cloak of elvenkind is recommended. In close range your sniper utility will drop, if your campaign features thick jungle and twisting dungeon chambers think hard about this before trying it.
Finally sneak attack as a rogue is necessary to avoid your damage sucking unbelievably. So how does this grab you - three levels of warlock, pact of the chain and a flying invisible familiar - adjacent to targets (and possibly with voice of the chain your spy drone with unlimited range playing into your sniper mindset) It doesnt have to attack just be adjacent, and the target doesnt even have to be aware of it as written (yeahhhh that aint right) So tah dah A sniper sharpshooter 600' sneak attack when your alone at will. Now thats a sniper.
Well what thematically about a sniper are you looking for? Do you want super higher one-shot capability? Priority on stealth / range?
Personally I would probably take a Goblin with a heavy crossbow or longbow, and then maybe multiclass into Fighter or ranger to get added benefits those would have. Hunters Mark for example would really help in making sure you take out a particular target.
However if you arent really into the idea of being a sniper as much as the idea of being a sort of ranged killer, you could maybe try putting 2 levels into Barbarian and using I believe handaxes or javelins. Not nearly as much range, but in rage you always have advantage on attacks, so you would always have sneak attack. Definitely not your traditional sniper, but it just really depends on what you are really after IMO.
However if you arent really into the idea of being a sniper as much as the idea of being a sort of ranged killer, you could maybe try putting 2 levels into Barbarian and using I believe handaxes or javelins. Not nearly as much range, but in rage you always have advantage on attacks, so you would always have sneak attack. Definitely not your traditional sniper, but it just really depends on what you are really after IMO.
Handaxes and javelins are not finesse nor ranged weapons. They are, in fact, melee weapons that can be thrown and as such cannot be used to perform a sneak attack.
However if you arent really into the idea of being a sniper as much as the idea of being a sort of ranged killer, you could maybe try putting 2 levels into Barbarian and using I believe handaxes or javelins. Not nearly as much range, but in rage you always have advantage on attacks, so you would always have sneak attack. Definitely not your traditional sniper, but it just really depends on what you are really after IMO.
Handaxes and javelins are not finesse nor ranged weapons. They are, in fact, melee weapons that can be thrown and as such cannot be used to perform a sneak attack.
Gotcha, rip. Had remembered that incorrectly, my bad
I agree, in a situation where a rogue needs a break and only has a handaxe... i feel i would make an exception for a good narrative. but accepting a character built around a mechanic that routinely needs that exemption is too much of a burden for me, the players and even the community. still with proper planning and communication you can make anything work.
I dont intend to complicate things further, but dont daggers and darts (thrown) still retain the ability to sneak attack? Or are they only sneak attack compatible in melee?
I think possibly using a feat slot to allow thrown weapons in general, or perhaps a higher tier class feature? There is already a feat that changes two-weapon fighting.
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Hello Adventurers!
I want to build the coolest Rogue Sniper. To start, i'm thinking Assassin for damage boost?? (Otherwise I’m not a fan of the class, really) Was thinking of using longbow as main wpn for distance and speed. What are your thoughts?
Starting level will be 5 at minimum.
I think crossbows are a better narrative idea for a sniper. You could hide in a tree or on the otherside of a hill, just cresting, without having to address the glaring inconsistency that longbows are not real sneaky. That being said longbow works too. As a rule weapons are fairly well balanced and it is more about your class features and feat choices.
I have a dwarf ranger / rogue (hunter/thief) that uses an heavy crossbow, amoung other weapons, and could very much be played as a sniper.
I think it is important to specify whether you are an urban "hitman" or a wilderness "guerilla" type sniper. This could change multiclass viability and/or subclass choices.
Parting shot: lurker feat is a great pick for a sniper
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Do you mean the Skulker Feat it is awesome, I say crossbow is best for sniping hard to lay prone and use a Bow. Crossbow Expert Feat and Sharpshooter are also important Crossbow Expert gives you 2 attacks as just a rogue with the Hand Crossbow as it is a light one handed weapon so you get the Bonus Action attack with it.
This idea has been rolling around in my mind for a while. First, pick Bugbear as your race, this will give you an added 2d6 dmg. on the first round (this benefits from the Assassin's crit ability). Next, start with Rogue (for the skills), but then take 2 levels in fighter, taking the archery style and gaining action surge (for more damage).
You said that you were starting at level 5, so your starting character should be Rogue 3/ Fighter 2. The first time you level up, take the level in Fighter choosing the Champion Archetype, this will boost your crit range by 5% making you deal a lot of damage even without sneak attacks (you could pick Archer for the added effects but both are great). Make sure you only take 3 levels in another class, that way you still gain the Assassin's final ability (for maximum death).
For Feats, you need to get Skulker, and Sharpshooter, these will make you deal maximum damage (and blow past cover) as well as not revealing your location from shooting.
If you choose to take the Champion Archetype, your weapon of choice should be a Heavy Crossbow, but if you chose Arcane Archer, you should use a longbow so you can benefit from the Arcane Shots.
Nice thanks guys. Great ideas.
What do you think about backgrounds?
Personally I think Assassin is a trap of a subclass. This is purely my opinion. You don't always get your "core" ability off and at best, best, you use it once an encounter.
I consider that a trap.
I love the idea of the Heavy Crossbow, but you need to Multi-class or Feat to get it. On the otherhand all you need is Elf to get the Longbow. Light crossbow it OK, 1d8, and great if you're not an elf. That said IF you have access to magic items crossbows are inferior. Bracers of Archery are boss and only work on bows not crossbows. I'm actually personally very disappointed that they've never given crossbows the love bows have.
You don't "need" Crossbow Expert, unless you plan on using hand crossbows. Because you're a Rogue you can Cunning Action away to not take an AoOs.
If you don't have hand crossbow, you only have 1 attack a turn so I recommend using your Bonus Action to Stealth every turn, but this requires the ability to have Heavy Concealment, unless you're a Wood Elf and it's natural or a Lightfood Halfling with any medium creature.
Other subclasses:
Inquisitive makes you a lie-detector. It allows you to use your Bonus Action to Insight Vs Deception to gain Sneak Attack if you wouldn't have it. This is useful if there is no concealment.
Scout is good. You get Expertise and proficiency with even more skills. Also has a Reaction you can use Skirmisher to move away without any AoOs. This is especially good IF you are going hand crossbow, as it lets you keep your bonus action free for the other attack.
When I think "Sniper" I think long range. Shortbow and Light crossbow are 80/320, heavy cross bow is 100/400, and longbow is 150/600.
I've rarely actually had that kind of range matter. That said "sniper" could be more of a Close Quarters Combatant, especially if you hide, move, attack.
If you have handcrossbow, crossbow expert, and sniper then you are firing 2 shots a turn at 120!
Have you looked at the Assassin's final ability?! It is a death on a failed save, AND A DOUBLE DAMAGE SNEAK ATTACK IF THEY SUCCEED! The final ability of the Inquisitive just makes you do an extra 3d6 damage. In addition, Assassin gives you a proficiency in the Poisoner's Kit, making you deal more damage. If you are an Assassin, you will be able to do more damage in one hit than an Inquisitive will do in like three.
A lot of this is personal perspective
1) I don't care about level 17 or level 20 abilities.
I care a lot more about an ability I get at level 3 then one I get at level 17. Because I get to use the level 3 ability for 17 levels and I get to use level 17 ability for 3 levels.
If we are going to compare 17th lvl abilities:
The Inquisitive +3d6 happens every single turn of combat. Over a combat that can add up to a lot.
the Scout's ability lets you get Sneak Attack against 2 different targets a turn. That's a possible extra 9d6+weapon damage a turn.
2) I think Poisoner's Kit is dog *@#%@.
A "basic" poison costs 100 gold, so it still costs 50 gold with the kit, plus the down time days to produce. It works on 3 pieces of ammo or 1 attack and adds all of +1d4 damage, half on a DC:10 Con save. So you're looking at spending 50-100 gold to get +2d4 extra damage.
dog @#*%@. All poisons cost too much for the return. They should be treated like minor consumable magic items and do more.
Also if you really wanted it, you can get it with any tool-use.
3) I still I think Assassinate is a garbage ability. At best, once a combat you'll get surprise and get 1 attack with Advantage and auto-convert it to a critical. That's a lot of eggs in that one basket depending on getting surprise and winning init. Yes, in a "white room scenario" assuming all of those factor's is very cool. That assumes a lot. Plus that's all you do.
4) I'm not trying to give Quark_Lighttouch, a single idea of how to make a "best". Best is a relative term. I'm giving him him options so he can pick what's best. I'll take the Inquisitive's ability let me get consistent Sneak Attack on a dragon that is FLYING and I'm stuck in the open. I'll take the Scout's ability to move out of combat with no AoOs so I can have my bonus action open for another attack. I'll take the ability of the Arcane Trickster to use minor illusion or mold earth to create cover to hide behind and Stealth for Advantage and Sneak Attack when none exists.
Best is how you use it. Best is more then just who had the most DPS at the end of a combat. I'll take the ability to consistently do Sneak Attack damage when others can't. That alone will do more damage over time then a single crit.
For you Assassin is the Best, and that's fine.
I like the alternate perspective. I am actually playing around with tweaking the concept anyway. So, my party is small (3 players + DM) and we're rotating DM. DM's character goes away when their DM'ing. This is my backup character. 1st string is an Arcane Trickster.
Other characters in the party are Deep Gnome Bladesinger Wizard, a Lizardfolk Circle of the Moon Druid, and a War Domain Cleric (DM's character out of party)
My "Sniper" character sheet: ddb.ac/characters/4450588/PRmDHq
With such a small party, we are trying to shoot for versatility, and the long range of a true sniper may not be the best tactical choice. I'm thinking of sticking with the idea of an hitman, "sniper" vibe, but I think I need to be able to engage in melee when required also. That being said, I think having an extra use of Sneak Attack would be a great thing to have every round rather than a single hit. Could be the difference between removing one enemy from the board and two?
What is the ability that lets scout do an extra sneak attack?
Rogue: Scout
Sudden Strike is a 17th ability.
Basically if you take an Attack Action on your turn, you can make an additional attack as a Bonus Action. This attack can benefit from Sneak Attack, except only 1 target can be Sneak Attacked per turn. So the Rogue needs to attack 2 targets a turn to maximize the benefit.
you don't get that until 17th Lvl though ... :/
I'm not sure if it's considered the best, but I'm currently playing a rogue. He will end up being a scout rogue with fighter (battlemaster). He will specialize in longbow with bow related feats, combat style, and items. Not min maxed in much capacity, but does quite well right now. Also, hes a goliath haha.
I've also been curious if monk (kensai) would be of any benefit as a multiclass.
I also feel assassinate is a trap. Too costly as a once per combat ability.
i tend to agree. Unless you really want to maximize your damage potential, Assassin isn't a fantastic option.
If you want to play a sniper, long range is important, the rest is about how determined you are to kill someone. Arrow and other munitions are broken 50% of the time. Rotgrubs, true polymorphed and transformed back by that nebulous mechanic of 0 damage but destruction or made into glass beads mounted on snapjaw arrow heads fired into people will place a rot grub inside someone, they are now dead unless lesser restoration is available. Now buying arrows with that or other nastier creatures would be expensive, but would they be 'poison' expensive (I feel your pain FMB, I really do, its priced to stop every party becoming poison blade monsters dealing 6d6+ a hit... Ah living the dream)
How about magma in the arrow? True polymorph could work on magma spooned out but not hardened. Congratulations your fantasy reverse engineering white phosphorous.
Look into firearms - I loathe them but some madman introduced pistols in WDH and where theres pistols muskets follow, and these are rapid firing for muzzle loaded weapons. Thats base damage, Sharpshooter is an obvious must pick choice, So what subclass? FMB I agree again. - Assassins work best as solo characters due to what constitutes surprise. The best you could hope is being far enough away from the party the prey is unaware of them and take your shot - but now you need to move position and evac back to your team if you couldnt one shot the vic, good luck! Next problem, as a sniper ask yourself why? Is your campaign always outside across long distances with little cover? Great, you might want to have perception as high as it goes - expertise in that and stealth, with a ghillie suit or cloak of elvenkind is recommended. In close range your sniper utility will drop, if your campaign features thick jungle and twisting dungeon chambers think hard about this before trying it.
Finally sneak attack as a rogue is necessary to avoid your damage sucking unbelievably. So how does this grab you - three levels of warlock, pact of the chain and a flying invisible familiar - adjacent to targets (and possibly with voice of the chain your spy drone with unlimited range playing into your sniper mindset) It doesnt have to attack just be adjacent, and the target doesnt even have to be aware of it as written (yeahhhh that aint right) So tah dah A sniper sharpshooter 600' sneak attack when your alone at will. Now thats a sniper.
Well what thematically about a sniper are you looking for? Do you want super higher one-shot capability? Priority on stealth / range?
Personally I would probably take a Goblin with a heavy crossbow or longbow, and then maybe multiclass into Fighter or ranger to get added benefits those would have. Hunters Mark for example would really help in making sure you take out a particular target.
However if you arent really into the idea of being a sniper as much as the idea of being a sort of ranged killer, you could maybe try putting 2 levels into Barbarian and using I believe handaxes or javelins. Not nearly as much range, but in rage you always have advantage on attacks, so you would always have sneak attack. Definitely not your traditional sniper, but it just really depends on what you are really after IMO.
Handaxes and javelins are not finesse nor ranged weapons. They are, in fact, melee weapons that can be thrown and as such cannot be used to perform a sneak attack.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Gotcha, rip. Had remembered that incorrectly, my bad
I kinda feel thrown weapons could possibly be included into the ranged sneak attack..
But then again, raw says otherwise. Almost as weird as unarmed strikes, if i recall counts as weapons for certain mechanics but not in general?
I agree, in a situation where a rogue needs a break and only has a handaxe... i feel i would make an exception for a good narrative. but accepting a character built around a mechanic that routinely needs that exemption is too much of a burden for me, the players and even the community. still with proper planning and communication you can make anything work.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I dont intend to complicate things further, but dont daggers and darts (thrown) still retain the ability to sneak attack? Or are they only sneak attack compatible in melee?
I think possibly using a feat slot to allow thrown weapons in general, or perhaps a higher tier class feature? There is already a feat that changes two-weapon fighting.