After working out the main background story line for my character I have finalized (like, yeah sure) a Wood Elf Rogue build I want to try for an upcoming group. It is mostly about versatility, not raw damage, but I believe it keeps up fairly well in damage output.
The general idea is a rogue that is ranged when outside and melee when inside, using Way of Shadow to maximize versatility and survivability. This rogue has a background in Taoism and Monk lifestyle, hence the nature/shadow concept. The multiclass table would look like this:
1-5 Rogue (Scout), 6-11 Monk (Way of Shadow), 12-14 Fighter (Champion), 15-20 Rogue Ability scores are including bonuses: 8 Str / 17 Dex / 14 Int / 16 Wis / 12 Con / 8 Cha
The main cons that I see:
- Missing 4d6 Sneak Attack dice - Missing feats due to clumsy levels
The main pros that I see:
- High versatility - High survivability - Better crit chances - More (attack) actions
The idea is that stunning strike, increased crit chance, extra attacks and d6 daggers will counter the missing Sneak Attack dice. Because of the added possibilities for hiding and getting advantage through shadow step and stunning strike, I should have advantage most of the time. Damage comes online at a fairly late level (10) this way, but up to that level survivability and versatility are relatively high. At level 14 it again gets a significant damage boost due to high crit chances with Elven Accuracy and extra attacks. I don't care too much about Reliable Talent being at 20th level. The biggest doubt I have is whether this sort of a generalist multi-classed character is going to start lagging behind quickly in terms of usability, defined by something like 'damage output + support'.
I think you are stretching yourself thin a bit too much.
First of all, when making a character, you should keep in mind at which level will you start, because unless you're gonna play in a campaign in tier 4, level 20 builds that come online late (level 10 onward) are pretty bad. So, for example, having dex maxed at level 17 is kinda suboptimal, not bad, but if you're multiclassing, it means you're aiming to optimize at least a bit.
The main issue i see with this build is survivability. You say it has high survivability, but the only "good" ability to mitigate enemies offensive, until level 16, is Uncanny Dodge: taking 5 levels of Rogue and then 6 of Monk keeps you out of Evasion, which, with a D8 hit die, is kinda necessary. 3levels of Fighter only give you a Second Wind of 1d10+3 and 3 extra HP. you have no other save proficency other than Dex and Int, without Evasion until later levels, and by the way you multiclassed, you get just 4 ASIs, which don't give you that much space to fit Resilient in the build. Your AC is gonna be pretty low OR you won't be able to use Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement, ; considering you'll be able to BARELY reach 20 DEX at level 17, you will have at MAX 16 WIS dumping two of CHA, INT or STR, you'll ac won't be THAT high. Your Deflect Missile ability will deflect a maximum of 1d10+10, wich is still pretty good, but you already have Uncanny Dodge has a defensive reaction, which automatically scales the more damage the enemy does.
Other nitpicks:
Few Ki points: only 6 per short rest, which at level 11 are enough, but at higher levels not so much,
Champion is not the best dip: the reason Rogue's crits are good is because all the SA's dices are doubled, but by taking 6 levels in monk, the gain of increased crit chance is lessened.
Sharpshoter is good on a Rogue due to the removal of many maluses tied to ranged attacks, but, at the same time, the more SA's dices he gains, the more a loss of accuracy lowers DPR, forcing you to use it on the Extra Attack only IF you already dealt a SA . Also, the extra damage from the Feat is not multyplied by a crit, one more reason to drop the Champion's dip.
You won't always be able to hide, so you won't ALWAYS have Advantage, and given that you only have 6 ki points, you won't be able to give yourself a chance to either that often, unless you neglect using Flurry of Blows (bad) and Stunning Strike (BAD!). Even if you could do that would still take an action, lowering your damage.
i don't understand what you mean by "versatility". If you mean out of combat versatility, then, this build dosen't offer that much more than pure Rogue, as it delays the second set of Expertise to level 15 and reliable talent to level 20. If you mean in combat versatility, the only thing this character can do are melee damage, ranged damage (both of which a pure Rogue can already do with minimal effort) and Stunning Strike. Yes you can move with Shadow Step, but dosen't benefits the party that much, is just to get yourself in position better to deal damage, and Shadow Arts are more like OoC abilities, that are also pretty expensive (2 ki out of the 6 for each rest).
I think only dipping 3 levels of Monk would be enough to give you the best toys of the Way of Shadow archetype, in my opinion, given that, as a Rogue you can already Dash as a bonus action; this, at least, if you actually mean to focus on versatilty instead of raw damage, because, by taking SS, elven accuracy, 5 levels of Monk and 2 levels of Fighter, looks like you care more about your offense, which is still fine.
Sorry if brought up only negative points... But that's how i analyze problems XD.
Thanks for your reaction! Let me reply with some questions and/or comments, if you will.
First of all, when making a character, you should keep in mind at which level will you start, because unless you're gonna play in a campaign in tier 4, level 20 builds that come online late (level 10 onward) are pretty bad.
This is something I hope to offset by having a fun-to-play character. Damage up to level 10 is not my main goal.
the reason Rogue's crits are good is because all the SA's dices are doubled, but by taking 6 levels in monk, the gain of increased crit chance is lessened.
Of course, still with Elven Accuracy and increased crits, it would be 30% crit instead of 10% without either, so in the end I don't think I will loose too much damage because of this. I would love to do some theorycrafting, but I'm unsure where to start. I have also heard others mentioning the build say that it would be 27% crit chance, which I don't understand. Sounds like basic statistics to me: 2/20 rolls are crits, i.e. 1 out of 10. If you roll 3 dice that's 30% in my book.
The main issue i see with this build is survivability. You say it has high survivability, but the only "good" ability to mitigate enemies offensive, until level 16, is Uncanny Dodge
I am expecting better than average survivability from: Skirmisher (level 3), increased AC (17 AC at level 6), increased movement (level 7), Deflect Missiles (level 8), Ki-based spells such as Darkness, Silence, Minor Illusion (level 8) and Shadow Step (level 11). I doubt that Evasion alone would be better for survivability, I mean how often do I really make a Dex saving throw compared to how often I have to avoid damage in combat? As far as I've read, Skirmisher is amazing for surviving. And my AC will actually be higher than usual, it is 10 + 4 Dex + 3 Wis at level 6 when I take my armor off (updated starting ability scores).
Also, the extra damage from the Feat is not multyplied by a crit
This is a problem, I missed that.
i don't understand what you mean by "versatility".
Being able to choose from a large selection of Actions and Bonus Actions depending on what's needed, i.e. the inherent value of multi-classing.
Thanks for the critique :). I will do a bit more theorycrafting. For now, I don't need to make major changes though, I feel.
I do have another question about feats: if I were to choose between Alert, Sentinel, Sharpshooter and Skulker, which would synergize best with the current build and why? I can't seem to make my mind up, seems like its mostly flavour to me.
I just realized something. Stunning Strike + Elven Accuracy + Increased Crit is actually a pretty sick combo. It means that I could do:
1. Attack from hiding or with an ally in range to deal 1d6 + Mod + Sneak Attack using dagger 2. On hit, attempt a Stunning Strike 3. Attack again with dagger for 1d6 + Mod using dagger 4. On hit, attempt a Stunning Strike again if it failed the last time 5. Bonus action, flurry of blows to deal 1d6 + Mod twice using kicks or whatever
If you really want to focus fire on a single target. If the first Stunning Strike is a succes, in total this gives 4 chances to crit on 19 or 20, each using 3 rolls because of Stunning Strike granting advantage. Sounds pretty amazing. Or would this not be possible?
I think only dipping 3 levels of Monk would be enough to give you the best toys of the Way of Shadow archetype, in my opinion, given that, as a Rogue you can already Dash as a bonus action; this, at least, if you actually mean to focus on versatilty instead of raw damage, because, by taking SS, elven accuracy, 5 levels of Monk and 2 levels of Fighter, looks like you care more about your offense, which is still fine.
Sorry if brought up only negative points... But that's how i analyze problems XD.
If they are multiclassing they should at least go 5-6 in monk for the extra attack. Then at level 6 he can teleport from shadow to shadow. Which also gives him advantage on the next melee attack. So depending on the lighting, your giving up a bonus action for advantage on an attack.
I see you gaining more not going the 3 into fighter and starting in rogue
I agree I don't want to give up extra attack and stunning strike. The shadow step is also really importing to me, flavour wise. I should have probably given some background context, but the idea is this Elf has had family ties to a family of Kensei monks that used to inhabit the forests he explored when young. Through his father he has also gained a significant education into monk tradition and lifestyle, but he has himself shied away from religious practices and embraced the forest and her secrets, hence the shadow twist.
The fighter dip is really only for the extra crit chance, but I am having a hard time letting the idea go, because without it my damage output would be a lot less. It synergizes with advantage and elven accuracy so well.
@Gavorn: what do you have in mind as a starting class and what would you think to gain more from it?
I am starting at level 1. The 'rogue as a starting class' rationale is that I've spent a lot of time alone in the woods, becoming almost part of nature through years of meditation and spending a lot of time among the trees and animals. Also, when in the forests with friends, I've spent a lot of time perfecting the crafting of bows and dagger hilts as my favourite pass time while sitting by a fire at night. As such, I have a natural knack for using deadly weapons that can be used both from afar as well as up close. Furthermore, the main storyline / quest for my character revolves around finding peace for myself, but also taking revenge on someone that killed my friend (whom I don't know yet). Following from this point of view rogue was most obvious choice for me, added with a decent bit of Monk (i.e. Shadow) flavour that has a strong relationship to nature. The Fighter dip is then mostly a strategic one, but I can rationalize why I at some point become a foe that has a deadly eye for finding weaknesses (Insight is also my 2nd highest skill at +3).
are the ability scores set in stone? Id say switch the 17 to wisdom and take the resilient feat to get wisdom save proficiency and that takes it to 18. ((odd numbers are the enemy!))
Rogue 1-4 : take the resilient wisdom feat to round the 17 to 18 Monk 5 - 10 : Monk Level 1-6 on the ASI go 2 dex which with your wisdom brings your AC to 18. The Martial Arts die is a d6 so your daggers are better. And the Extra Attack. And the Shadow teleport that doesn't cost any Ki and only uses a bonus action. Rogue 11 - 20 : Rogue Level 5 - 14 you get 3 ASI increases plus 7d6 Sneak attack and Blindsense.
you will have an extra ASI to spend since you only need a few to max out DEX and WIS. your AC will be 20 then. ((try and get bracers of defense if you can))
I still see more negatives going anything into fighter. But you can throw your fighter levels in anywhere tbh.
I'm not really sure why your suggestion would be so much better, possibly for lack of me knowing higher levels. Still, both for Rogue and Monk DEX is the primary stat as it increases AC, attack, damage, initiative, etc., while WIS also increases my AC, but for the rest only gives me an increased wisdom saving throw and some situational spellcasting increase. The odd 17 roll is fine, as I would take Elven Accuracy at 4th level anyway (or any other feat that would give me +1 DEX). Also, I rolled 15 for both WIS and DEX, so there's nothing to swap.
Furthermore, I got the advice to first take Rogue to 5 at least for Uncanny Dodge, which I agree with. It seems what you are suggesting is mainly for getting proficient in WIS saving throws, while loosing out many other stats. I feel that Elven Accuracy will get me much more at level 4 than Resilient Wisdom will. I was thinking about taking Observant + Resilient, but only for the last ASIs, which yeah would be at levels 17 and 19, or level 14 and 16 if not taking the Fighter dip.
The real option I'm still seeing is forgoing on the Fighter dip (as suggested before), which would give me 1 more ASI, but cost me a lot of damage output. I'm not sure if that is worth it's while. I am starting to feel that saving throws are more important than I think, as Evasion was suggested to be taken before the Monk dip and you are suggesting I should invest in Wisdom saves. Why do you I need these early on, compared to doing more raw damage to make up for multiclassing?
I mean it's your character. Whatever you feel your character is then go with that. Hell after playing it at lvl 10 you might go cleric if the story takes you there.
Wisdom and Dex saves are the two most common saves, that's why people push the evasion ability and I pushed resilient feat. You don't have to do it.
Out of experience take the multiclass plunge sooner than later. Because there will always be a reason to say 'oh I get this next I'll dip into the other class next time.'
So i just posted what i would do. You can do whatever you want that fits with your character.
Hi all!
After working out the main background story line for my character I have finalized (like, yeah sure) a Wood Elf Rogue build I want to try for an upcoming group. It is mostly about versatility, not raw damage, but I believe it keeps up fairly well in damage output.
The general idea is a rogue that is ranged when outside and melee when inside, using Way of Shadow to maximize versatility and survivability. This rogue has a background in Taoism and Monk lifestyle, hence the nature/shadow concept. The multiclass table would look like this:
1-5 Rogue (Scout), 6-11 Monk (Way of Shadow), 12-14 Fighter (Champion), 15-20 Rogue
Ability scores are including bonuses: 8 Str / 17 Dex / 14 Int / 16 Wis / 12 Con / 8 Cha
The main cons that I see:
- Missing 4d6 Sneak Attack dice
- Missing feats due to clumsy levels
The main pros that I see:
- High versatility
- High survivability
- Better crit chances
- More (attack) actions
The idea is that stunning strike, increased crit chance, extra attacks and d6 daggers will counter the missing Sneak Attack dice. Because of the added possibilities for hiding and getting advantage through shadow step and stunning strike, I should have advantage most of the time. Damage comes online at a fairly late level (10) this way, but up to that level survivability and versatility are relatively high. At level 14 it again gets a significant damage boost due to high crit chances with Elven Accuracy and extra attacks. I don't care too much about Reliable Talent being at 20th level. The biggest doubt I have is whether this sort of a generalist multi-classed character is going to start lagging behind quickly in terms of usability, defined by something like 'damage output + support'.
Main thoughts?
I think you are stretching yourself thin a bit too much.
First of all, when making a character, you should keep in mind at which level will you start, because unless you're gonna play in a campaign in tier 4, level 20 builds that come online late (level 10 onward) are pretty bad. So, for example, having dex maxed at level 17 is kinda suboptimal, not bad, but if you're multiclassing, it means you're aiming to optimize at least a bit.
The main issue i see with this build is survivability. You say it has high survivability, but the only "good" ability to mitigate enemies offensive, until level 16, is Uncanny Dodge: taking 5 levels of Rogue and then 6 of Monk keeps you out of Evasion, which, with a D8 hit die, is kinda necessary. 3levels of Fighter only give you a Second Wind of 1d10+3 and 3 extra HP. you have no other save proficency other than Dex and Int, without Evasion until later levels, and by the way you multiclassed, you get just 4 ASIs, which don't give you that much space to fit Resilient in the build. Your AC is gonna be pretty low OR you won't be able to use Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement, ; considering you'll be able to BARELY reach 20 DEX at level 17, you will have at MAX 16 WIS dumping two of CHA, INT or STR, you'll ac won't be THAT high. Your Deflect Missile ability will deflect a maximum of 1d10+10, wich is still pretty good, but you already have Uncanny Dodge has a defensive reaction, which automatically scales the more damage the enemy does.
Other nitpicks:
I think only dipping 3 levels of Monk would be enough to give you the best toys of the Way of Shadow archetype, in my opinion, given that, as a Rogue you can already Dash as a bonus action; this, at least, if you actually mean to focus on versatilty instead of raw damage, because, by taking SS, elven accuracy, 5 levels of Monk and 2 levels of Fighter, looks like you care more about your offense, which is still fine.
Sorry if brought up only negative points... But that's how i analyze problems XD.
Thanks for your reaction! Let me reply with some questions and/or comments, if you will.
This is something I hope to offset by having a fun-to-play character. Damage up to level 10 is not my main goal.
Of course, still with Elven Accuracy and increased crits, it would be 30% crit instead of 10% without either, so in the end I don't think I will loose too much damage because of this. I would love to do some theorycrafting, but I'm unsure where to start. I have also heard others mentioning the build say that it would be 27% crit chance, which I don't understand. Sounds like basic statistics to me: 2/20 rolls are crits, i.e. 1 out of 10. If you roll 3 dice that's 30% in my book.
I am expecting better than average survivability from: Skirmisher (level 3), increased AC (17 AC at level 6), increased movement (level 7), Deflect Missiles (level 8), Ki-based spells such as Darkness, Silence, Minor Illusion (level 8) and Shadow Step (level 11). I doubt that Evasion alone would be better for survivability, I mean how often do I really make a Dex saving throw compared to how often I have to avoid damage in combat? As far as I've read, Skirmisher is amazing for surviving. And my AC will actually be higher than usual, it is 10 + 4 Dex + 3 Wis at level 6 when I take my armor off (updated starting ability scores).
This is a problem, I missed that.
Being able to choose from a large selection of Actions and Bonus Actions depending on what's needed, i.e. the inherent value of multi-classing.
Thanks for the critique :). I will do a bit more theorycrafting. For now, I don't need to make major changes though, I feel.
I do have another question about feats: if I were to choose between Alert, Sentinel, Sharpshooter and Skulker, which would synergize best with the current build and why? I can't seem to make my mind up, seems like its mostly flavour to me.
I just realized something. Stunning Strike + Elven Accuracy + Increased Crit is actually a pretty sick combo. It means that I could do:
1. Attack from hiding or with an ally in range to deal 1d6 + Mod + Sneak Attack using dagger
2. On hit, attempt a Stunning Strike
3. Attack again with dagger for 1d6 + Mod using dagger
4. On hit, attempt a Stunning Strike again if it failed the last time
5. Bonus action, flurry of blows to deal 1d6 + Mod twice using kicks or whatever
If you really want to focus fire on a single target. If the first Stunning Strike is a succes, in total this gives 4 chances to crit on 19 or 20, each using 3 rolls because of Stunning Strike granting advantage. Sounds pretty amazing. Or would this not be possible?
If they are multiclassing they should at least go 5-6 in monk for the extra attack. Then at level 6 he can teleport from shadow to shadow. Which also gives him advantage on the next melee attack. So depending on the lighting, your giving up a bonus action for advantage on an attack.
I see you gaining more not going the 3 into fighter and starting in rogue
I agree I don't want to give up extra attack and stunning strike. The shadow step is also really importing to me, flavour wise. I should have probably given some background context, but the idea is this Elf has had family ties to a family of Kensei monks that used to inhabit the forests he explored when young. Through his father he has also gained a significant education into monk tradition and lifestyle, but he has himself shied away from religious practices and embraced the forest and her secrets, hence the shadow twist.
The fighter dip is really only for the extra crit chance, but I am having a hard time letting the idea go, because without it my damage output would be a lot less. It synergizes with advantage and elven accuracy so well.
@Gavorn: what do you have in mind as a starting class and what would you think to gain more from it?
Are you starting at 1 or at a higher level? It depends more on your background tbh.
I am starting at level 1. The 'rogue as a starting class' rationale is that I've spent a lot of time alone in the woods, becoming almost part of nature through years of meditation and spending a lot of time among the trees and animals. Also, when in the forests with friends, I've spent a lot of time perfecting the crafting of bows and dagger hilts as my favourite pass time while sitting by a fire at night. As such, I have a natural knack for using deadly weapons that can be used both from afar as well as up close. Furthermore, the main storyline / quest for my character revolves around finding peace for myself, but also taking revenge on someone that killed my friend (whom I don't know yet). Following from this point of view rogue was most obvious choice for me, added with a decent bit of Monk (i.e. Shadow) flavour that has a strong relationship to nature. The Fighter dip is then mostly a strategic one, but I can rationalize why I at some point become a foe that has a deadly eye for finding weaknesses (Insight is also my 2nd highest skill at +3).
are the ability scores set in stone? Id say switch the 17 to wisdom and take the resilient feat to get wisdom save proficiency and that takes it to 18. ((odd numbers are the enemy!))
Rogue 1-4 : take the resilient wisdom feat to round the 17 to 18
Monk 5 - 10 : Monk Level 1-6 on the ASI go 2 dex which with your wisdom brings your AC to 18. The Martial Arts die is a d6 so your daggers are better. And the Extra Attack. And the Shadow teleport that doesn't cost any Ki and only uses a bonus action.
Rogue 11 - 20 : Rogue Level 5 - 14 you get 3 ASI increases plus 7d6 Sneak attack and Blindsense.
you will have an extra ASI to spend since you only need a few to max out DEX and WIS. your AC will be 20 then. ((try and get bracers of defense if you can))
I still see more negatives going anything into fighter. But you can throw your fighter levels in anywhere tbh.
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm not really sure why your suggestion would be so much better, possibly for lack of me knowing higher levels. Still, both for Rogue and Monk DEX is the primary stat as it increases AC, attack, damage, initiative, etc., while WIS also increases my AC, but for the rest only gives me an increased wisdom saving throw and some situational spellcasting increase. The odd 17 roll is fine, as I would take Elven Accuracy at 4th level anyway (or any other feat that would give me +1 DEX). Also, I rolled 15 for both WIS and DEX, so there's nothing to swap.
Furthermore, I got the advice to first take Rogue to 5 at least for Uncanny Dodge, which I agree with. It seems what you are suggesting is mainly for getting proficient in WIS saving throws, while loosing out many other stats. I feel that Elven Accuracy will get me much more at level 4 than Resilient Wisdom will. I was thinking about taking Observant + Resilient, but only for the last ASIs, which yeah would be at levels 17 and 19, or level 14 and 16 if not taking the Fighter dip.
The real option I'm still seeing is forgoing on the Fighter dip (as suggested before), which would give me 1 more ASI, but cost me a lot of damage output. I'm not sure if that is worth it's while. I am starting to feel that saving throws are more important than I think, as Evasion was suggested to be taken before the Monk dip and you are suggesting I should invest in Wisdom saves. Why do you I need these early on, compared to doing more raw damage to make up for multiclassing?
I mean it's your character. Whatever you feel your character is then go with that. Hell after playing it at lvl 10 you might go cleric if the story takes you there.
Wisdom and Dex saves are the two most common saves, that's why people push the evasion ability and I pushed resilient feat. You don't have to do it.
Out of experience take the multiclass plunge sooner than later. Because there will always be a reason to say 'oh I get this next I'll dip into the other class next time.'
So i just posted what i would do. You can do whatever you want that fits with your character.
Edited to fix autocorrect.............