Lvl 3: Ear for Deceit: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a keen ear for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.
Okay. Not a bad feature. Except the Rogue gets Reliable Talent at level 11 that makes this ability do nothing if you took Proficiency in Insight. But then just don't... right? Well, then this ability becomes much less useful, besides, you need high Insight for a key ability of the sub-class, so... you're taking Proficiency in Insight. And Expertise, probably.
Lvl 3: Eye for Detail: Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a hidden creature or object or to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to uncover or decipher clues.
Right, so this is meant to be used in combat. How? So you can spot a creature that just went invisible and try to attack it? Or are you supposed to ask "Hey, DM, I use my bonus action to Investigate my enemy for... something? Just tell me what I see." So you can use this feature to force your DM to give you some benefits in combat out of pity, since you have this as a class feature and it shouldn't be useless... right? A terrible feature that relies on heavy DM fiat. A lot of DMs would let you to look around as a free action anyway, but now with this rule you have to spend a bonus action, which is pretty hilarious.
Lvl 9: Steady Eye: At 9th level, you gain advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Alright, finally a good feature. Except, you know, you get Reliable Talent in two levels. With Reliable talent, 14 Wisdom, 10 Intellect and Expertise in both Perception and Investigation you will never roll below 20 in Perception or 18 in Investigation. What is out there that you won't be able to perceive or find out with these rolls? There is something, I'm sure, but not much. But hey, this is basically like free Expertise in these two skills, if you count Advantage as being roughly +5 in a skill check, so just don't take Expertise in these two. Maybe. But Perception and Investigation are massively important for a Rogue and it's a bit tough to wait until lvl 9 to get good in these skills, since the Rogue typically can't afford massive Wisdom and/or Intellect scores.
So we have a whole slew of sub-class defining features that become obsolete if you stick with the base class until the mid-game and beyond. Am I not seeing something? Why is it like this? Who designed this and is he still employed?
Usually, you can make Perception checks during combat with your action, being able to do it with a bonus action is a great benefit.
Also, many monster have +10 or higher in Stealth and advantage in some circumstances. Having advantage on Perception is very useful even at high levels.
Lastly, you can offer your critism without being offensive.
I've not played an inquisitive myself and it isn't really my preferred style of character.
It's worth noting how new subclasses reach publication though.
Wizards of the Coast typically release new subclass ideas via Unearthed Arcana as playtest material. They then review the popularity and feedback from the community and make adjustments as required before releasing the subclass officially in a publication.
Here's the one for the Inquisitive, published back in 2016:
Lvl 3: Eye for Detail: Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a hidden creature or object or to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to uncover or decipher clues.
So out of combat I can move at full speed and make perception checks as bonus actions, thus I can move at quicker pace, heck I can even be running as a dash and make them. In combat I can dash and make perception checks. Useful for fleeing and making sure I don't run right into a trap.
Lvl 3: Ear for Deceit: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a keen ear for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.
The idea being that I don't have to take it as a skill and I get close to reliable talent with it. Considering most targets won't have a high deception, Insightful fighting can still work well even if unskilled.
Lvl 9: Steady Eye: At 9th level, you gain advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Coupled with bonus action, I can cruise at high speed, or in dim lighting and still have a decent perception check.
Overall I see this as a defensive version of the class
Personally Inquisitive Rogue has become my favorite Rogue, and I'm super looking forward to getting to make one for a game. I especially want to play it for Dragonhiest or any intrigue/social game.
This Rogue is all about the skills and being the eyes and ears of the party. Sadly, it does dictate a lot of where you skills go. Assuming a Rogue has 4 skills and Background as 2.
You're going to take Training in: Perception, Investigation, and Insight. So, half your skills are already called for. To boost Insightful Fighting, you'll take Expertise in Insight and possibly take Expertise in Perception, because it's a great skill. Insightful Fighting also means Stealth is slightly less important as you will get Sneak Attack without have Advantage or an ally within 5'.
Ear for Deceit, I consider a "ribbon" ability. It gets totally replaced at 11th with Reliable Talent, but it's useful to have for the 8 levels between 3 and 11. It's very dependant on a social interaction. If it's a kick in the door woohoo loot game, it'll never get used. If it's a social game your dice can't fail you.
Eye for Detail is great. It means you can Perception as a bonus action. This means a Rogue can spot a hidden enemy and still attack them! It guess it could depend on the GM, but I wouldn't consider anyone hidden when your ally has put an arrow into them.I've never had a GM let us "Perceptive in Detail" as a free action. It's an Action. Example: "you turn the corner and see 3 humanoids". Getting more information requires an Action to know if they are foes or non-combatants.
As I said before Insightful Fighting is where it's at. You pretty easily get Sneak Attack against most anything as a Bonus Action. It last for 1 minute or until you pick a different target.
Steady Eye gives you Advantage on all Perception and Investigation checks if you move half speed. If you're not in a hurry it means you always have Advantage, but as because you can Dash as a Bonus Action and Perceive as an Action or visa-v, you're not even slowed down. This means your Passive Perception is usually going to be at +5 for Advantage. If you take the Observant Feat it gets crazy, nothing will be able to hide from you.
Unearing Eye I consider disappointing. It's limited by Wisdom Mod, and you'd need a reason to activate it. That said getting to know there are illusions makes it easier to find.
Eye for Weakness is amazing. It's bonus Sneak Attack Damage.
Steady Eye gives you Advantage on all Perception and Investigation checks if you move half speed. If you're not in a hurry it means you always have Advantage, but as because you can Dash as a Bonus Action and Perceive as an Action or visa-v, you're not even slowed down.
The Dash action gives you more movement, not more speed, so it's not going to change how far you can move while using Steady Eye.
Steady Eye gives you Advantage on all Perception and Investigation checks if you move half speed. If you're not in a hurry it means you always have Advantage, but as because you can Dash as a Bonus Action and Perceive as an Action or visa-v, you're not even slowed down.
The Dash action gives you more movement, not more speed, so it's not going to change how far you can move while using Steady Eye.
My thought was that the Rogue can move at half speed twice. Assuming 30' of movement: Move: 15, Bonus Action: Dash: 15, Action: Perception. means you still move 30' a round (keep pace with the party) while moving half speed. But I could be incorrect... I could see it not as it was intended.
Yeah, I can see what you were going for. But Steady Eye doesn't care how you break up your movement and Dash doesn't give you a "second move" or anything along those lines; it just lets you move farther without changing your speed. So you're still going to be limited to 30/2 = 15 feet of total movement on your turn.
I think it's a really strong feature regardless. Between Steady Eye and Reliable Talent it's really hard for creatures to hide from you, especially if you also have Expertise in Perception.
The ability of insightful fighting is incredibly useful if your not planning shooting into melee your allies are involved in. At 17th it gets bells and ribbons.
The inquisitive subclass could have been inspired from the 3rd ed eberron master inquisitive prestige class. That was a specialisation where you would uncover knowledge sift for lies and form networks of informants. (think bow street runner style pre british police force hard case law man or American frontier marshal with ears in the right place as two examples) I suspect that is what helped reimagine the class and help speed it through to print.
I think it could be quite fun now, especially if you went for a 'quickdraw' build in a game where duels were fought or there were high noon face offs.
I would have agreed with I.C. about the cheeky dashing steady eye option, and would probably 'run' with it.
Imagine steady eye with windwalk. Thats 300' flight speed and you have become a freaky reconaissance drone absorbing all the the information on a town below (hello keen mind feat, oh how I have missed you) half the 300 and you 'only' move 150'
I think the inquisitive seems like a flexible and neat type of rogue. It seems like it could represent a Warhammer witch hunter type character, or I was thinking a dwarf who seeks out and explores lost holds/dungeons for his guild.
It seems like I come up with a lot of concepts that could be represented by an inquisitive, but I'm not sure how they would play out on the table. I do love the idea behind it though.
you take out the most important part of inquisitive in your post. Everything is basically leading up to you wisdom checking a creature and getting sneak attacks on it for a minute.
Ear for Deceit gets out shadowed by the 11th level class feature Reliable Talent: By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. --- Essentially cancels the subclass feature.
Eye for Detail is circumstantial. Some people have stated that they can Dash as an action while Bonus Action Perception/Investigation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Rogues already can Dash as a Bonus Action at 2nd level. So what's to stop someone from using their Action to use Perception/Investigation. Seems silly to just reverse it since the Action economy is used up either way. Spotting a hidden enemy is great but if the hidden person is invisilbe they still have advantage to strike while their assailant has disadvantage. And how often are enemies hidden?
Steady Eye is a good feature but not great. Advantage to Perception/Investigation at the cost of half one's movement is an okay tradeoff depending on the situation.
Insightful Fighting imo is an okay feature which uses a Bonus Action. The drawback from this feature is that if we have an ally in melee or we have advantage then we don't need this until level 17. If we compare this to Versatile Trickster then it's even worse as Versatile Trickster gives us Advantage on our attacks rolls.
Unerring Eye is another circumstantial feature which akin to Spiderman's spider sense but in regards to someone or something trying to deceive you with magic. In order for this to be useful you'd have to already be suspicious of an effect is trying to use magic to trick you within 30ft and you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature. So this only adds to you suspicions? Just don't be Blinded or Deafened.
Now Eye for Weakness gives 3d6 to the Rogue's sneak attack after applying Insightful Fighting which improves Insightful Fighting. So this feat really just buffs up Insightful Fighting and makes it good. Making Sneak Attack at 17th level 12d6 which is nice. But we had to wait until 17th level to get anything that's really good?
With all this being said I really like this subclass thematically. It really offers some nice RP options but combat (until 17 level) and practicality it's lacking. Please, let me know if I'm missing something here.
Insightful Fighting imo is an okay feature which uses a Bonus Action. The drawback from this feature is that if we have an ally in melee or we have advantage then we don't need this until level 17. If we compare this to Versatile Trickster then it's even worse as Versatile Trickster gives us Advantage on our attacks rolls.
I actually consider "Insightful Fighting" to be way better then your making it. If you succeed (just once) on the check vs this Deception (Cha), and you should have Expertise you get Sneak Attack every round for the next minute (10 rounds!). That's without needing to have an ally with 5' and without needing to have Advantage.
I think this is the best subclass for the "Ranged Rogue" and is perfect for "geeking the mage" or taking out other ranged characters. If that monster is trying to fly around outside of melee range you're still getting Sneak Attack, every single round. If you have Sharp Shooter that enemy cleric/mage is not going to be safe behind their guards. You don't have to worry about "hiding in combat" to get it or waiting for someone to get within 5' of them.
FMB makes an excellent point, any rogue subclass that can let you sneak attack in a situation you otherwise couldnt, and allowing you to remain combat effective is a gain.
Perception is a skill. Making a skill check during combat requires a regular action. This archetype can perform a perception check with a bonus action with Eye for Detail. That is a huge benefit if an enemy goes invisible or uses the Hide action.
If your DM is allowing Perception checks as a free action, then he's not playing RAW. And this could effect any class. Suppose a DM allowed all rogue actions during the surprise round to be critical hits. This would make the Assassin feature useless, wouldn't it? But that's not a design issue, that's a DM issue.
Can somebody explain something to me?
Lvl 3: Ear for Deceit: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a keen ear for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.
Okay. Not a bad feature. Except the Rogue gets Reliable Talent at level 11 that makes this ability do nothing if you took Proficiency in Insight. But then just don't... right? Well, then this ability becomes much less useful, besides, you need high Insight for a key ability of the sub-class, so... you're taking Proficiency in Insight. And Expertise, probably.
Lvl 3: Eye for Detail: Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a hidden creature or object or to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to uncover or decipher clues.
Right, so this is meant to be used in combat. How? So you can spot a creature that just went invisible and try to attack it? Or are you supposed to ask "Hey, DM, I use my bonus action to Investigate my enemy for... something? Just tell me what I see." So you can use this feature to force your DM to give you some benefits in combat out of pity, since you have this as a class feature and it shouldn't be useless... right? A terrible feature that relies on heavy DM fiat. A lot of DMs would let you to look around as a free action anyway, but now with this rule you have to spend a bonus action, which is pretty hilarious.
Lvl 9: Steady Eye: At 9th level, you gain advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Alright, finally a good feature. Except, you know, you get Reliable Talent in two levels. With Reliable talent, 14 Wisdom, 10 Intellect and Expertise in both Perception and Investigation you will never roll below 20 in Perception or 18 in Investigation. What is out there that you won't be able to perceive or find out with these rolls? There is something, I'm sure, but not much. But hey, this is basically like free Expertise in these two skills, if you count Advantage as being roughly +5 in a skill check, so just don't take Expertise in these two. Maybe. But Perception and Investigation are massively important for a Rogue and it's a bit tough to wait until lvl 9 to get good in these skills, since the Rogue typically can't afford massive Wisdom and/or Intellect scores.
So we have a whole slew of sub-class defining features that become obsolete if you stick with the base class until the mid-game and beyond. Am I not seeing something? Why is it like this? Who designed this and is he still employed?
Eye for Details and Steady Eye are huge benefits.
Usually, you can make Perception checks during combat with your action, being able to do it with a bonus action is a great benefit.
Also, many monster have +10 or higher in Stealth and advantage in some circumstances. Having advantage on Perception is very useful even at high levels.
Lastly, you can offer your critism without being offensive.
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D&D Beyond FoundersI've not played an inquisitive myself and it isn't really my preferred style of character.
It's worth noting how new subclasses reach publication though.
Wizards of the Coast typically release new subclass ideas via Unearthed Arcana as playtest material. They then review the popularity and feedback from the community and make adjustments as required before releasing the subclass officially in a publication.
Here's the one for the Inquisitive, published back in 2016:
https://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/UA%20Gothic%20Characters.pdf
You can find youtube videos discussing the design and feedback on this subclass.
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Lvl 3: Eye for Detail: Starting at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a hidden creature or object or to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to uncover or decipher clues.
So out of combat I can move at full speed and make perception checks as bonus actions, thus I can move at quicker pace, heck I can even be running as a dash and make them. In combat I can dash and make perception checks. Useful for fleeing and making sure I don't run right into a trap.
Lvl 3: Ear for Deceit: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a keen ear for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.
The idea being that I don't have to take it as a skill and I get close to reliable talent with it. Considering most targets won't have a high deception, Insightful fighting can still work well even if unskilled.
Lvl 9: Steady Eye: At 9th level, you gain advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn.
Coupled with bonus action, I can cruise at high speed, or in dim lighting and still have a decent perception check.
Overall I see this as a defensive version of the class
Personally Inquisitive Rogue has become my favorite Rogue, and I'm super looking forward to getting to make one for a game. I especially want to play it for Dragonhiest or any intrigue/social game.
This Rogue is all about the skills and being the eyes and ears of the party. Sadly, it does dictate a lot of where you skills go. Assuming a Rogue has 4 skills and Background as 2.
You're going to take Training in: Perception, Investigation, and Insight. So, half your skills are already called for.
To boost Insightful Fighting, you'll take Expertise in Insight and possibly take Expertise in Perception, because it's a great skill. Insightful Fighting also means Stealth is slightly less important as you will get Sneak Attack without have Advantage or an ally within 5'.
Ear for Deceit, I consider a "ribbon" ability. It gets totally replaced at 11th with Reliable Talent, but it's useful to have for the 8 levels between 3 and 11. It's very dependant on a social interaction. If it's a kick in the door woohoo loot game, it'll never get used. If it's a social game your dice can't fail you.
Eye for Detail is great. It means you can Perception as a bonus action. This means a Rogue can spot a hidden enemy and still attack them! It guess it could depend on the GM, but I wouldn't consider anyone hidden when your ally has put an arrow into them.I've never had a GM let us "Perceptive in Detail" as a free action. It's an Action.
Example: "you turn the corner and see 3 humanoids". Getting more information requires an Action to know if they are foes or non-combatants.
As I said before Insightful Fighting is where it's at. You pretty easily get Sneak Attack against most anything as a Bonus Action. It last for 1 minute or until you pick a different target.
Steady Eye gives you Advantage on all Perception and Investigation checks if you move half speed. If you're not in a hurry it means you always have Advantage, but as because you can Dash as a Bonus Action and Perceive as an Action or visa-v, you're not even slowed down. This means your Passive Perception is usually going to be at +5 for Advantage. If you take the Observant Feat it gets crazy, nothing will be able to hide from you.
Unearing Eye I consider disappointing. It's limited by Wisdom Mod, and you'd need a reason to activate it. That said getting to know there are illusions makes it easier to find.
Eye for Weakness is amazing. It's bonus Sneak Attack Damage.
The Dash action gives you more movement, not more speed, so it's not going to change how far you can move while using Steady Eye.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
My thought was that the Rogue can move at half speed twice.
Assuming 30' of movement: Move: 15, Bonus Action: Dash: 15, Action: Perception. means you still move 30' a round (keep pace with the party) while moving half speed.
But I could be incorrect... I could see it not as it was intended.
Yeah, I can see what you were going for. But Steady Eye doesn't care how you break up your movement and Dash doesn't give you a "second move" or anything along those lines; it just lets you move farther without changing your speed. So you're still going to be limited to 30/2 = 15 feet of total movement on your turn.
I think it's a really strong feature regardless. Between Steady Eye and Reliable Talent it's really hard for creatures to hide from you, especially if you also have Expertise in Perception.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The ability of insightful fighting is incredibly useful if your not planning shooting into melee your allies are involved in. At 17th it gets bells and ribbons.
The inquisitive subclass could have been inspired from the 3rd ed eberron master inquisitive prestige class. That was a specialisation where you would uncover knowledge sift for lies and form networks of informants. (think bow street runner style pre british police force hard case law man or American frontier marshal with ears in the right place as two examples) I suspect that is what helped reimagine the class and help speed it through to print.
I think it could be quite fun now, especially if you went for a 'quickdraw' build in a game where duels were fought or there were high noon face offs.
I would have agreed with I.C. about the cheeky dashing steady eye option, and would probably 'run' with it.
Imagine steady eye with windwalk. Thats 300' flight speed and you have become a freaky reconaissance drone absorbing all the the information on a town below (hello keen mind feat, oh how I have missed you) half the 300 and you 'only' move 150'
Ok having chosen this i i can say the following
Having sneak attack on solo faction encounters: priceless
Advantage perception roll to find secret doors or objects: priceless.
Min roll of 8 on low level insight checks : very nice
I started with unskilled insite but will skill skil it next level. unskilled rolls still good
I think the inquisitive seems like a flexible and neat type of rogue. It seems like it could represent a Warhammer witch hunter type character, or I was thinking a dwarf who seeks out and explores lost holds/dungeons for his guild.
It seems like I come up with a lot of concepts that could be represented by an inquisitive, but I'm not sure how they would play out on the table. I do love the idea behind it though.
you take out the most important part of inquisitive in your post. Everything is basically leading up to you wisdom checking a creature and getting sneak attacks on it for a minute.
You bring up some really good points.
Ear for Deceit gets out shadowed by the 11th level class feature Reliable Talent: By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. --- Essentially cancels the subclass feature.
Eye for Detail is circumstantial. Some people have stated that they can Dash as an action while Bonus Action Perception/Investigation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Rogues already can Dash as a Bonus Action at 2nd level. So what's to stop someone from using their Action to use Perception/Investigation. Seems silly to just reverse it since the Action economy is used up either way. Spotting a hidden enemy is great but if the hidden person is invisilbe they still have advantage to strike while their assailant has disadvantage. And how often are enemies hidden?
Steady Eye is a good feature but not great. Advantage to Perception/Investigation at the cost of half one's movement is an okay tradeoff depending on the situation.
Insightful Fighting imo is an okay feature which uses a Bonus Action. The drawback from this feature is that if we have an ally in melee or we have advantage then we don't need this until level 17. If we compare this to Versatile Trickster then it's even worse as Versatile Trickster gives us Advantage on our attacks rolls.
Unerring Eye is another circumstantial feature which akin to Spiderman's spider sense but in regards to someone or something trying to deceive you with magic. In order for this to be useful you'd have to already be suspicious of an effect is trying to use magic to trick you within 30ft and you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature. So this only adds to you suspicions? Just don't be Blinded or Deafened.
Now Eye for Weakness gives 3d6 to the Rogue's sneak attack after applying Insightful Fighting which improves Insightful Fighting. So this feat really just buffs up Insightful Fighting and makes it good. Making Sneak Attack at 17th level 12d6 which is nice. But we had to wait until 17th level to get anything that's really good?
With all this being said I really like this subclass thematically. It really offers some nice RP options but combat (until 17 level) and practicality it's lacking. Please, let me know if I'm missing something here.
I actually consider "Insightful Fighting" to be way better then your making it.
If you succeed (just once) on the check vs this Deception (Cha), and you should have Expertise you get Sneak Attack every round for the next minute (10 rounds!). That's without needing to have an ally with 5' and without needing to have Advantage.
I think this is the best subclass for the "Ranged Rogue" and is perfect for "geeking the mage" or taking out other ranged characters. If that monster is trying to fly around outside of melee range you're still getting Sneak Attack, every single round. If you have Sharp Shooter that enemy cleric/mage is not going to be safe behind their guards.
You don't have to worry about "hiding in combat" to get it or waiting for someone to get within 5' of them.
FMB makes an excellent point, any rogue subclass that can let you sneak attack in a situation you otherwise couldnt, and allowing you to remain combat effective is a gain.
Perception is a skill. Making a skill check during combat requires a regular action. This archetype can perform a perception check with a bonus action with Eye for Detail. That is a huge benefit if an enemy goes invisible or uses the Hide action.
If your DM is allowing Perception checks as a free action, then he's not playing RAW. And this could effect any class. Suppose a DM allowed all rogue actions during the surprise round to be critical hits. This would make the Assassin feature useless, wouldn't it? But that's not a design issue, that's a DM issue.
If your DM isn’t using the hide action for baddies, they’re too easy on you. So yeah, in that case I wouldn’t choose Inquisitive either
So the lvl 17 ability eye for weakness gives 3d6 to sneak attack, does that crit or stay at 3d6 on a crit?
On a crit it would be 6d6
So at level 17, using Eye for Weakness, a crit sneak attack would be whopping 24d6 plus weapon damage.