Best time to take dual wielder feat vs +2 Dex for Swashbuckler Rogues, as well as best multi-class dip points for Fighter 1-3 dips, or better multi-class synergies for swashbucklers. To Discuss! see first reply for my thoughts.
I have been caught debating my level 4 stat up vs dual wielder feat option on my level 3 Lightfoot Halfling Swashbuckler Rogue (Stats: 12 STR, 18 DEX, 15 CON, 13 INT, 12 WIS, 16 CHA, great rolls I know, lucked out). He has 18 Dex already, so the +4 has been great, but getting that 20 dex gives a wide range of versatility, defensive, offensive and utility. In the campaign so far, our party of 4 (including a bard, wizard, paladin, we had a cleric but he rarely shows) lacks some consistent ranged dps so I find myself switching to ranged combat quite often, leading to the Dex stat up as the better option potentially.
Now, as a swashbuckler rogue, when in close he shines and being able to sting and move consistently keeps him hard to hit and effective dancing around the paladin's meat shield. I already use two weapon fighting, but taking Dual wielder right at level 4 gives the +1 AC I would get from the Dex up so that cancels out, plus the 2 non-light finesse weapons and ease of draw. so Dual wield would give a potential extra 4 damage combined between the 2 rapiers, while the Dex up gives a guaranteed 2 extra damage on hit and +2 chance to hit. My chance to hit in combat, initiative, and skills would miss out, but having the Rakish Audacity feature of Swashbuckler already gives the +4 Dex +3 Char to my initiative so its not hurting.
The reason I write this post is to just get an opinion on if it is better to take the dual wield now, as I will specialize early and it would better suit my characters backstory. Couple that with the fact I will most likely take a fighter level dip for two weapon fighting style and second wind at most likely 6th or 9th level (potentially moving to battle master with a 3 lvl dip later on) I'm leaning towards the early dual wield feat to maximize combat efficiency early, leaving the + 2 Dex til level 8.
Any thoughts on this? I have been contemplating his progression since deciding to make a dual wielding rogue/fighter, and will end with all of these options eventually so it essentially is just early/mid game scaling that I am concerned about, and also the ideal points to dip from rogue. I'm thinking pushing back till lvl 9 for the Fighter 1 dip, as I will receive the the 8th lvl ASI for max Dex just before, essentially attaining my major rogue features and completing the majority of build by level 8. All feedback is appreciated!
Dexterity is just better mechanically. As you note, AC winds up the same, damage works out almost identically mathematically, and the Dex version has a slightly better chance to hit. The Dex build also has better initiative and Dex-skills. The Dual Wielder version's only benefit is the ability to draw two weapons when others could only draw one.
That said, it's a relatively minor mechanical superiority, and you could certainly go Dual Wielder to better fit backstory and still be effective. But as a simple 'which is better mechanically?' +2 Dexterity wins that contest hands down.
Without the fighting style, you won't get to add the +1 to the two-weapon fighting attack damage. But the fact that you get to add that +1 to so many other things (AC, hit, damage (just not 2wf damage), stealth, saves, initiative, etc) probably makes it the better choice.
As for when and how much to multiclass, after level 4 is a good time. I recommend 5 levels of fighter or ranger to get extra attack.
It's actually not close. Most of your damage comes from sneak attack. Since you're already doing two weapon fighting, adding +1 to hit from adding two Dex is a far superior option in terms of optimization. You also get one AC an be a bus to all those great rogue skills.
Actually now having done the math, you're very slightly better off at level 4 going with the Dual Wield feat. However, the increase in all the rogue skills probably still makes getting to 20 dex better. That being said, the dual wield feat is increasingly less useful as you gain levels so it might be a good time to grab it.
Actually now having done the math, you're very slightly better off at level 4 going with the Dual Wield feat. However, the increase in all the rogue skills probably still makes getting to 20 dex better. That being said, the dual wield feat is increasingly less useful as you gain levels so it might be a good time to grab it.
What math? Assuming an attack against, say, AC 15 the Dex 20 version should average around 14.5 damage, while the dual wielding build averages more like 14.3. This is due to the greater to-hit chances on the Dex build (which multiply Sneak Attack slightly more).
Now, that's a tiny damage difference, which is why I said Dual Wielding should also be fine if desired for flavor reasons...but it favors the Dex 20 version.
Actually now having done the math, you're very slightly better off at level 4 going with the Dual Wield feat. However, the increase in all the rogue skills probably still makes getting to 20 dex better. That being said, the dual wield feat is increasingly less useful as you gain levels so it might be a good time to grab it.
What math? Assuming an attack against, say, AC 15 the Dex 20 version should average around 14.5 damage, while the dual wielding build averages more like 14.3. This is due to the greater to-hit chances on the Dex build (which multiply Sneak Attack slightly more).
Now, that's a tiny damage difference, which is why I said Dual Wielding should also be fine if desired for flavor reasons...but it favors the Dex 20 version.
You're right. I accidentally included the 5 dex mod for both calculations. Thanks for pointing out my error.
Accounting for hit and critical percentages and the 15 AC, sneak attack damage, ability modifiers, and weapon damage, the two short swords with 20 dex does an average damage per round of 16.1. The two rapiers with 18 dex does 15.8 aDPR.
If your DM uses flanking, and you are an elf or half elf, your first feat even over any ASI or dual wielding should be Elven Accuracy. Forget all else as this now means you are usually making all attacks at advantage rolling three dice. It will increase your chance to hit more. On top of that you cantrip choice should be Booming blade or GFB.
If your DM uses flanking, and you are an elf or half elf, your first feat even over any ASI or dual wielding should be Elven Accuracy. Forget all else as this now means you are usually making all attacks at advantage rolling three dice. It will increase your chance to hit more. On top of that you cantrip choice should be Booming blade or GFB.
Uh...they are explicitly playing a Halfling. so this is very much not an option. It also means they don't get a free cantrip.
Actually now having done the math, you're very slightly better off at level 4 going with the Dual Wield feat. However, the increase in all the rogue skills probably still makes getting to 20 dex better. That being said, the dual wield feat is increasingly less useful as you gain levels so it might be a good time to grab it.
What math? Assuming an attack against, say, AC 15 the Dex 20 version should average around 14.5 damage, while the dual wielding build averages more like 14.3. This is due to the greater to-hit chances on the Dex build (which multiply Sneak Attack slightly more).
Now, that's a tiny damage difference, which is why I said Dual Wielding should also be fine if desired for flavor reasons...but it favors the Dex 20 version.
You're right. I accidentally included the 5 dex mod for both calculations. Thanks for pointing out my error.
Accounting for hit and critical percentages and the 15 AC, sneak attack damage, ability modifiers, and weapon damage, the two short swords with 20 dex does an average damage per round of 16.1. The two rapiers with 18 dex does 15.8 aDPR.
So I was hoping to be level 4 by the time I posted again, but we had a slower session one week and missed another. So the main damage difference being only about 0.3 between dex and dual wield options, it still makes the choice pretty up in the air. Having 2 rapiers early and taking a fighter dip level before level 7 would allow me the fighting style for the extra stat damage on off hand attack, and I can take the next stat up at level 9 for 20 dex and then smooth sailing from there. Or do the complete opposite, 20 Dex first, then get to level 8 for dual wield and fighter dip at lvl 9/10. The extra +1 AC from dual wield and the extra damage from the 2 rapiers (albeit not much) is a good supplementary way to increase damage and defense at level 8 prior to the multiclass dip. I think that is the way I will proceed. 20 dex first at level 4 for greater low level versatility, take dual wielder after to specialize into more of a strictly melee Swasbuckler. One question though, Kendis mentioned Dual wielder becomes less useful as you progress, how so? the availability of other feats/other stat ups vs dual wield? It's the only way I can see currently to increase this builds AC and damage after already having 20 dex. I would finish with 18 AC after both 20 dex and dual wield, so I think its pretty useful anytime (before level 10) just depending on your build right?
Best time to take dual wielder feat vs +2 Dex for Swashbuckler Rogues, as well as best multi-class dip points for Fighter 1-3 dips, or better multi-class synergies for swashbucklers. To Discuss! see first reply for my thoughts.
I have been caught debating my level 4 stat up vs dual wielder feat option on my level 3 Lightfoot Halfling Swashbuckler Rogue (Stats: 12 STR, 18 DEX, 15 CON, 13 INT, 12 WIS, 16 CHA, great rolls I know, lucked out). He has 18 Dex already, so the +4 has been great, but getting that 20 dex gives a wide range of versatility, defensive, offensive and utility. In the campaign so far, our party of 4 (including a bard, wizard, paladin, we had a cleric but he rarely shows) lacks some consistent ranged dps so I find myself switching to ranged combat quite often, leading to the Dex stat up as the better option potentially.
Now, as a swashbuckler rogue, when in close he shines and being able to sting and move consistently keeps him hard to hit and effective dancing around the paladin's meat shield. I already use two weapon fighting, but taking Dual wielder right at level 4 gives the +1 AC I would get from the Dex up so that cancels out, plus the 2 non-light finesse weapons and ease of draw. so Dual wield would give a potential extra 4 damage combined between the 2 rapiers, while the Dex up gives a guaranteed 2 extra damage on hit and +2 chance to hit. My chance to hit in combat, initiative, and skills would miss out, but having the Rakish Audacity feature of Swashbuckler already gives the +4 Dex +3 Char to my initiative so its not hurting.
The reason I write this post is to just get an opinion on if it is better to take the dual wield now, as I will specialize early and it would better suit my characters backstory. Couple that with the fact I will most likely take a fighter level dip for two weapon fighting style and second wind at most likely 6th or 9th level (potentially moving to battle master with a 3 lvl dip later on) I'm leaning towards the early dual wield feat to maximize combat efficiency early, leaving the + 2 Dex til level 8.
Any thoughts on this? I have been contemplating his progression since deciding to make a dual wielding rogue/fighter, and will end with all of these options eventually so it essentially is just early/mid game scaling that I am concerned about, and also the ideal points to dip from rogue. I'm thinking pushing back till lvl 9 for the Fighter 1 dip, as I will receive the the 8th lvl ASI for max Dex just before, essentially attaining my major rogue features and completing the majority of build by level 8. All feedback is appreciated!
Dexterity is just better mechanically. As you note, AC winds up the same, damage works out almost identically mathematically, and the Dex version has a slightly better chance to hit. The Dex build also has better initiative and Dex-skills. The Dual Wielder version's only benefit is the ability to draw two weapons when others could only draw one.
That said, it's a relatively minor mechanical superiority, and you could certainly go Dual Wielder to better fit backstory and still be effective. But as a simple 'which is better mechanically?' +2 Dexterity wins that contest hands down.
Without the fighting style, you won't get to add the +1 to the two-weapon fighting attack damage. But the fact that you get to add that +1 to so many other things (AC, hit, damage (just not 2wf damage), stealth, saves, initiative, etc) probably makes it the better choice.
As for when and how much to multiclass, after level 4 is a good time. I recommend 5 levels of fighter or ranger to get extra attack.
It's actually not close. Most of your damage comes from sneak attack. Since you're already doing two weapon fighting, adding +1 to hit from adding two Dex is a far superior option in terms of optimization. You also get one AC an be a bus to all those great rogue skills.
Actually now having done the math, you're very slightly better off at level 4 going with the Dual Wield feat. However, the increase in all the rogue skills probably still makes getting to 20 dex better. That being said, the dual wield feat is increasingly less useful as you gain levels so it might be a good time to grab it.
What math? Assuming an attack against, say, AC 15 the Dex 20 version should average around 14.5 damage, while the dual wielding build averages more like 14.3. This is due to the greater to-hit chances on the Dex build (which multiply Sneak Attack slightly more).
Now, that's a tiny damage difference, which is why I said Dual Wielding should also be fine if desired for flavor reasons...but it favors the Dex 20 version.
You're right. I accidentally included the 5 dex mod for both calculations. Thanks for pointing out my error.
Accounting for hit and critical percentages and the 15 AC, sneak attack damage, ability modifiers, and weapon damage, the two short swords with 20 dex does an average damage per round of 16.1. The two rapiers with 18 dex does 15.8 aDPR.
If your DM uses flanking, and you are an elf or half elf, your first feat even over any ASI or dual wielding should be Elven Accuracy. Forget all else as this now means you are usually making all attacks at advantage rolling three dice. It will increase your chance to hit more. On top of that you cantrip choice should be Booming blade or GFB.
Uh...they are explicitly playing a Halfling. so this is very much not an option. It also means they don't get a free cantrip.
So I was hoping to be level 4 by the time I posted again, but we had a slower session one week and missed another. So the main damage difference being only about 0.3 between dex and dual wield options, it still makes the choice pretty up in the air. Having 2 rapiers early and taking a fighter dip level before level 7 would allow me the fighting style for the extra stat damage on off hand attack, and I can take the next stat up at level 9 for 20 dex and then smooth sailing from there. Or do the complete opposite, 20 Dex first, then get to level 8 for dual wield and fighter dip at lvl 9/10. The extra +1 AC from dual wield and the extra damage from the 2 rapiers (albeit not much) is a good supplementary way to increase damage and defense at level 8 prior to the multiclass dip. I think that is the way I will proceed. 20 dex first at level 4 for greater low level versatility, take dual wielder after to specialize into more of a strictly melee Swasbuckler. One question though, Kendis mentioned Dual wielder becomes less useful as you progress, how so? the availability of other feats/other stat ups vs dual wield? It's the only way I can see currently to increase this builds AC and damage after already having 20 dex. I would finish with 18 AC after both 20 dex and dual wield, so I think its pretty useful anytime (before level 10) just depending on your build right?
Sounds like a good plan.