Wanted to confirm that I'm getting this right about rogues. Rogues do not ever get multiple attack rolls with their action, regardless of level...UNLESS:
They use the two weapon fighting rules in the PHB (light melee weapons, offhand attack is a bonus action, and no ability modifier to the damage of the offhand attack)
They take the Dual Wielder feat (again, for melee weapons only)
They take the Crossbow Expert feat, which allows for an offhand attack with a hand crossbow
Let me put this another way, more specifically: a rogue wielding a light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow, or longbow, will never, regardless of feats chosen, be able to attack more than once per turn with these ranged weapons? Assume the rogue does NOT multiclass.
Am I correct that without the above feats or choices, the rogue does not get to make more than one attack during their turn?
Essentially yes, though the Dual Wielder feat does not grant any additional attacks. It only does three things:
* Gives you a +1 to your AC when wielding two weapons
* Lets you draw or stow 2 one-handed weapons when you could normally only draw/stow 1
* Modifies the rules for two-weapon fighting so that the weapons don't have to have the Light property(so the Rogue could ditch the daggers & shortswords and dual-wield rapiers if they wanted)
There's also the Rogue Scout's 17th-level ability, Sudden Strike. If they take the Attack action on their turn, they get an additional attack as a Bonus Action. Since this attack isn't granted by the two-weapon fighting rules, none of those restrictions apply. They can simply swing an additional time with their rapier or fire another shot from their bow if they want, and they get to add their ability mod to the damage.
I'm a bit confused on this myself.. My rogue, uses two handed fighting (2 daggers) so that's two attack rolls (one w/out ability modifiers) but what about the sneak attack ability? Three attacks a round seems a bit excessive to me. So I haven't been using the sneak attack (unless it was to initiate combat on an unsuspecting victim.. say someone who was otherwise distracted by another enemy as stated in the rules. But even in that case, I still only used 2 attacks (one for each weapon). is that wrong?
I'm a bit confused on this myself.. My rogue, uses two handed fighting (2 daggers) so that's two attack rolls (one w/out ability modifiers) but what about the sneak attack ability? Three attacks a round seems a bit excessive to me. So I haven't been using the sneak attack (unless it was to initiate combat on an unsuspecting victim.. say someone who was otherwise distracted by another enemy as stated in the rules. But even in that case, I still only used 2 attacks (one for each weapon). is that wrong?
Sneak Attack isn't a separate attack, it's a damage boost applied to one of your attacks if certain conditions are met. So if you're a Rogue dual-wielding daggers, you only get up to two attacks per turn. One with your Action, followed by one with your Bonus Action(we're not taking things like Multiclassing or the Haste spell into account). You can apply Sneak Attack damage to one of those two attacks if it hits and if you meet the conditions for Sneak Attack(Adv. on the attack, or another enemy next to your target & you don't have Disadv.).
There are a few niche ways a rogue can get more attack for example if they have haste cast on them.
As Fattsgalore said, where other classes get extra attack, rogues get extra damage as they level tahnks to sneak attack. Duel wielding can work for a rogue bacause although it uses a bonus action and you don't add your ability modifier if you miss with your main attack if gives you a second chance to get off your sneak attack. Often it is a good strategy to duel wield but only use an offhand attack if you miss, otherwise use your bonus action to dodge or disengage and run away.
There are a few niche ways a rogue can get more attack for example if they have haste cast on them.
As Fattsgalore said, where other classes get extra attack, rogues get extra damage as they level tahnks to sneak attack. Duel wielding can work for a rogue bacause although it uses a bonus action and you don't add your ability modifier if you miss with your main attack if gives you a second chance to get off your sneak attack. Often it is a good strategy to duel wield but only use an offhand attack if you miss, otherwise use your bonus action to dodge or disengage and run away.
Just to note that Rouges cannot use Cunning Action to Dodge as a Bonus Action. I believe, but am not sure, that the only class that can Dodge as a Bonus Action is a Monk expending a Ki point on Patient Defense.
Just to note that Rouges cannot use Cunning Action to Dodge as a Bonus Action. I believe, but am not sure, that the only class that can Dodge as a Bonus Action is a Monk expending a Ki point on Patient Defense.
I'm actually running a College of Valor Bard and began multiclassing into Rogue (with the plans of making them an Arcane Trickster) and discovered that combination also allows for the Extra Attack feature (also a multiclass DEX fighter does the trick too) giving me a 3rd attack, or at least 2 attacks with a bow from range allowing for a greater chance of landing Sneak Attack Dies.
I'm actually running a College of Valor Bard and began multiclassing into Rogue (with the plans of making them an Arcane Trickster) and discovered that combination also allows for the Extra Attack feature (also a multiclass DEX fighter does the trick too) giving me a 3rd attack, or at least 2 attacks with a bow from range allowing for a greater chance of landing Sneak Attack Dies.
Everything is a balance, while extra attack allows you an extra chance to get your sneak attack in, 6 levels of valor bard mean that sneak attack will be doing far less. A 7th level bard has 4th level spells a 7th levle rogue is doing 4d6 sneak attack a Bard 6, rogue 1 only doing an extra 1d6.
Sneak attack isn't a reason to dip into bard compared to high level abilities you can do more damage. If you really want to doube down on skill monkey as a bard expertise is good and a second level to disengage as a bonus action can be useful.
Going deep in 2 classes is rarely a good idea, you wont be able ot keep up with single class (or dips) and a Valor bard / arcnae trickster can be very MAD. You need high dex and charisma along with a decent con so make sure you don't pick arcane trickster spells that also run off your Intelligence.
In my personal character's case it's a strongly rolled character that covers the above-listed bases, and honestly is a very niche character I made to help round out the needs of my current party ( we also have a niche Ranger/ Rogue I combo within the backline that results in the massive fistful of dice combo with a single hit). You also gain Expertise in 4 skills at fairly low levels and still have Jack of all Trades to help round out the character, so in all, I don't feel I have sacrificed too much in this combo. The spells slots don't actually change as well when multiclassing bard into arcane trickster so I'm not actually hurting myself that way, just sacrificing high-end skills that ... let's be honest... most campaigns I've played in rarely reach before conclusion or a PC death. Again, as I posted in brackets, a Dex fighter accomplishes the same and probably sacrifices less if you didn't roll well or are using the standard array to make your character, but getting access to expertise like i have as a bard is a little dangerous on the RP side of things.
p.s. My Bards stats are broken, and the DM basically offered a curse (with benefits, its a lot to explain but again a niche character) to keep her in check, but I've decided to exploit the curse, thus why I also went the route I did.
p.s. pt 2, with this build I would also HIGHLY recommend taking the Resilient feat to give yourself proficiency in CON or War Caster (probably both) to also help cover that VERY big hole in the build.
Thanks to sneak attack Rogues output more damage then the other martial classes even with their multiple attacks.
As a dedicated barbarian with maxed strength it pisses me off.
Freaking kill stealers.
But it's also WASTED damage.
A rogue gets one hit. The sneak attack damage goes to obliterating that one thing that could have been wiped out in a single hit, while other classes get multiple hits, which can mean taking down a few different targets.
Wanted to confirm that I'm getting this right about rogues. Rogues do not ever get multiple attack rolls with their action, regardless of level...UNLESS:
Let me put this another way, more specifically: a rogue wielding a light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow, or longbow, will never, regardless of feats chosen, be able to attack more than once per turn with these ranged weapons? Assume the rogue does NOT multiclass.
Am I correct that without the above feats or choices, the rogue does not get to make more than one attack during their turn?
Essentially yes, though the Dual Wielder feat does not grant any additional attacks. It only does three things:
* Gives you a +1 to your AC when wielding two weapons
* Lets you draw or stow 2 one-handed weapons when you could normally only draw/stow 1
* Modifies the rules for two-weapon fighting so that the weapons don't have to have the Light property(so the Rogue could ditch the daggers & shortswords and dual-wield rapiers if they wanted)
There's also the Rogue Scout's 17th-level ability, Sudden Strike. If they take the Attack action on their turn, they get an additional attack as a Bonus Action. Since this attack isn't granted by the two-weapon fighting rules, none of those restrictions apply. They can simply swing an additional time with their rapier or fire another shot from their bow if they want, and they get to add their ability mod to the damage.
Thanks to sneak attack Rogues output more damage then the other martial classes even with their multiple attacks.
As a dedicated barbarian with maxed strength it pisses me off.
Freaking kill stealers.
I'm a bit confused on this myself.. My rogue, uses two handed fighting (2 daggers) so that's two attack rolls (one w/out ability modifiers) but what about the sneak attack ability? Three attacks a round seems a bit excessive to me. So I haven't been using the sneak attack (unless it was to initiate combat on an unsuspecting victim.. say someone who was otherwise distracted by another enemy as stated in the rules. But even in that case, I still only used 2 attacks (one for each weapon). is that wrong?
Sneak Attack isn't a separate attack, it's a damage boost applied to one of your attacks if certain conditions are met. So if you're a Rogue dual-wielding daggers, you only get up to two attacks per turn. One with your Action, followed by one with your Bonus Action(we're not taking things like Multiclassing or the Haste spell into account). You can apply Sneak Attack damage to one of those two attacks if it hits and if you meet the conditions for Sneak Attack(Adv. on the attack, or another enemy next to your target & you don't have Disadv.).
There are a few niche ways a rogue can get more attack for example if they have haste cast on them.
As Fattsgalore said, where other classes get extra attack, rogues get extra damage as they level tahnks to sneak attack. Duel wielding can work for a rogue bacause although it uses a bonus action and you don't add your ability modifier if you miss with your main attack if gives you a second chance to get off your sneak attack. Often it is a good strategy to duel wield but only use an offhand attack if you miss, otherwise use your bonus action to dodge or disengage and run away.
Than you SO much Jd2319 ... that was truly driving me nuts. I appreciate you.
Just to note that Rouges cannot use Cunning Action to Dodge as a Bonus Action. I believe, but am not sure, that the only class that can Dodge as a Bonus Action is a Monk expending a Ki point on Patient Defense.
That is correct don't know why I said that.
But at least I know how to spell Rogues :-)
Finally 🤪😳😁 rouge is a red face paint you will get all over you if you don’t learn to spell rogue properly! 😳🤡
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm actually running a College of Valor Bard and began multiclassing into Rogue (with the plans of making them an Arcane Trickster) and discovered that combination also allows for the Extra Attack feature (also a multiclass DEX fighter does the trick too) giving me a 3rd attack, or at least 2 attacks with a bow from range allowing for a greater chance of landing Sneak Attack Dies.
Everything is a balance, while extra attack allows you an extra chance to get your sneak attack in, 6 levels of valor bard mean that sneak attack will be doing far less. A 7th level bard has 4th level spells a 7th levle rogue is doing 4d6 sneak attack a Bard 6, rogue 1 only doing an extra 1d6.
Sneak attack isn't a reason to dip into bard compared to high level abilities you can do more damage. If you really want to doube down on skill monkey as a bard expertise is good and a second level to disengage as a bonus action can be useful.
Going deep in 2 classes is rarely a good idea, you wont be able ot keep up with single class (or dips) and a Valor bard / arcnae trickster can be very MAD. You need high dex and charisma along with a decent con so make sure you don't pick arcane trickster spells that also run off your Intelligence.
In my personal character's case it's a strongly rolled character that covers the above-listed bases, and honestly is a very niche character I made to help round out the needs of my current party ( we also have a niche Ranger/ Rogue I combo within the backline that results in the massive fistful of dice combo with a single hit). You also gain Expertise in 4 skills at fairly low levels and still have Jack of all Trades to help round out the character, so in all, I don't feel I have sacrificed too much in this combo. The spells slots don't actually change as well when multiclassing bard into arcane trickster so I'm not actually hurting myself that way, just sacrificing high-end skills that ... let's be honest... most campaigns I've played in rarely reach before conclusion or a PC death. Again, as I posted in brackets, a Dex fighter accomplishes the same and probably sacrifices less if you didn't roll well or are using the standard array to make your character, but getting access to expertise like i have as a bard is a little dangerous on the RP side of things.
p.s. My Bards stats are broken, and the DM basically offered a curse (with benefits, its a lot to explain but again a niche character) to keep her in check, but I've decided to exploit the curse, thus why I also went the route I did.
p.s. pt 2, with this build I would also HIGHLY recommend taking the Resilient feat to give yourself proficiency in CON or War Caster (probably both) to also help cover that VERY big hole in the build.
A rogue wielding a Scimitar of Speed could also make more than one attack on it's turn.
But it's also WASTED damage.
A rogue gets one hit. The sneak attack damage goes to obliterating that one thing that could have been wiped out in a single hit, while other classes get multiple hits, which can mean taking down a few different targets.
It's a trade off..
I know this thread ended almost a year ago but I’m just upset that rogues aren’t fun to play in combat