I've been doing some character creation and looking into the skills a bit more than I usually would.
For Sleight of Hand it says that, "Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The GM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket."
With the literal definition leaving "manual trickery" pretty open and vague, what would everyone think of using it in combat? Feign attacks to increase hit chance, swapping weapons mid attack, aiming for specific parts of armor/body to disable or impede, etc etc.
Everything I've read essentially sums SoH as a useless skill and exceptionally worthless in combat.
Sleight of hand is the skill for pickpockets, shoplifters, and stage magicians. It's useful if a player and DM actually want to use it, it's useless if one or both does not. As for combat, it's hard to justify using it for anything, but then that's true for most skills in most combats.
Maybe you could use it before combat to tie down or jam a warrior's sword in the scabbard to make it harder to draw, or loosening or cutting the bowstring on his crossbow, or stealing his bolts. Maybe you steal his dagger. Maybe you loosen the fasteners on his breastplate to create a vulnerable spot. It would be hard to do, but in the right social situations it might be possible.
Sleight of hand is often more useful out of combat than in combat. At the very least for most rogue's it's taking up your action to do with certain exceptions. keep in mind the thief archetype can actually use it as a bonus action instead which makes it more combat viable. But it's something to perhaps discuss with you DM a bit if you want to make use of it and when it is appropriate or the kind of restrictions it might have for your Rogue.
Sleight of hand is the skill for pickpockets, shoplifters, and stage magicians. It's useful if a player and DM actually want to use it, it's useless if one or both does not. As for combat, it's hard to justify using it for anything, but then that's true for most skills in most combats.
I think this post quoted here describes the best application of sleights of hand in combat, since there are already abilities in Rogue and other classes/subclass that specifically allow you to gain advantage through feints and underhanded tactics.
Depending on the situation, a DM could rule that a sleight of hand falls under "Other Activity on your turn". This would allow your character to enter combat, attack with a drawn weapon, use sleight of hand to take something from the NPC/PC, then use cunning action to disengage and back away. Seems quite reasonable if the item isn't massive, or in the targets hands. In fact, it could add spice to the combat situation if you use sleight of hand to loosen your opponents cloak strap, or belt buckle. The DM could rule, on a high role, that their pants are falling down and they'll have disadvantage (or something) until they use a free action to fix (on their turn). You could be attempting to pull a scroll from a wizard, and you get close enough to get it, and they might not know you're a rogue or aiming for this scroll. We can't assume any of the NPCs or other's in the game know you're a rogue. It's a tricky situation.
In a game we played, there was an object everyone was seeking to get, so it was always in someone's hand. In that case it was an action to get, and opposing athletics rolls (may have included acrobatics too, as you can get flavorful with a grab, flip and yank...). Up to the DM, but seems like a useful tactic given some situations. I'm assuming DM would set up those for it to succeed. Our DM rewards creativity, as long as its within reason. Makes for a fun and flavorful session, not always focusing combat on death.
So the thing about Slieght of Hand is that it's rooted in stage magic and misdirection. Yes, the skill's primary usage in D&D is pickpocketing -- but ultimately the entire focus of the skill is tricking the eye and the mind (I'd personally allow Int + Sleight of Hand to plan out tricks...and Wis+Sleight of Hand to detect them, but of course alternative attributes is an optional, albeit very good, rule).
The webcomic Girl Genius has some excellent (and sometimes extreme) examples of Sleight of Hand used in combat--look for any fight with Violetta, where she slips out of an opponent's hold (wrestling) without letting them realize she's done so (now that's sleight of hand), and at other times swaps an ally out for a dummy placed cunningly so the enemy doesn't figure out the swap until they've already struck. The key is, very often, not the actual movement -- but the ability to trick and work with perception, so the enemy doesn't realize the trick until they've already wasted their action.
And, of course, there's a key example in the climax of Avengers: Endgame. "and I am Iron Man." (and you have no -idea- how high the bonus to my slight of hand this armor gives me). [No spoilers!]
I think there are as many uses as you can think of really; it's something you should absolutely use when you can as an Arcane Trickster (since you can use Mage Hand Legerdemain to do it at range, though it may require two steps) or as a Thief (who can use Fast Hands) as both can do it as a bonus action.
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It is really useful in combat for arcane tricksters, a bit less useful for thieves and not very useful for anyone else.
RAW Arcane Tricksters can use SOH as a bonus action to take something out of a container if using their mage hand legerdemain. So if you have mage hand out there is a ton of potential. A common use is to steal weapons out of their sheath or wands or a spell focus. The only trick is it takes an action to cast Mage Hand so you need to have it out ahead of time to make this efficient.
Theives can use SOH as a bonus action too. The up side is they do not have to cast mage hand first, the downsides are they have to be right next to the person they are using it on and the rules do not explicitly say you can try to steal things with a bonus action like they do for mage hand legerdemain (and as a result many DMs will say you can't do that in combat)
Other classes can technically try this sort of thing in combat too, but it is less viable for them because it takes an action and requires them to be within reach of the enemy.
Rogues get a ton of bonus action options so even with ATs and Thieves there is still an opportunity cost to doing it.
The only trick is it takes an action to cast Mage Hand so you need to have it out ahead of time to make this efficient.
Since Mage Hand is a cantrip you can just assume your Arcane Trickster is refreshing the timer when they're not doing anything else; probably by discussing with your DM rather than declaring it every six seconds that you're not in combat. If you're an Arcane Trickster and you don't have your mage hand out then are you really an Arcane Trickster? 😉
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The only trick is it takes an action to cast Mage Hand so you need to have it out ahead of time to make this efficient.
Since Mage Hand is a cantrip you can just assume your Arcane Trickster is refreshing the timer when they're not doing anything else; probably by discussing with your DM rather than declaring it every six seconds that you're not in combat. If you're an Arcane Trickster and you don't have your mage hand out then are you really an Arcane Trickster? 😉
Not really true for two reasons.
1. Casting a spell while sneaking reveals your location. This approach is fine if walking around in a party, but it is not viable while scouting alone or even if using stealth as a party.
2. The 30 foot limit can be very debilitating and often results in losing the hand in combat. If you cast mage hand and then fling the door open (or use the hand to) and the enemy is 50 feet in the room it is going to be difficult to get it to them. You need to use a bonus to move it 30 foot closer .... assuming you are at the door if you are a couple ranks back behind the beef then you might not even be able to that. Then on your next turn you are going to have to move forward so you can move the hand forward again and get it into the fight. Doing that takes another BA you might use. So that is two bonus actions to get the hand into the fight. IT is 2 BAs that can't be used for cunning action, steady aim etc and on top of that you had to move well into the room where you might have wanted to stay and snipe from the doorway..
Getting the telekenetic feat helps quite a bit on the 30 foot limit..
Casting a spell while sneaking reveals your location. This approach is fine if walking around in a party, but it is not viable while scouting alone or even if using stealth as a party.
While Mage Hand has a vocal component, the volume isn't specified, so it's reasonable to assume a quiet whisper is plenty; if you're actively in danger of being detected (i.e- enemies in very close proximity) you can of course stop re-casting the hand until you're out of earshot or re-cast it less frequently to reduce the danger.
The use of a vocal component doesn't guarantee stealth is broken unless the vocal component is specified as loud; I'd say in most cases it's reasonable to just ask for another Stealth check (as you might ask for Sleight of Hand for a spell with somatic components to remain unnoticed). If you had to shout to summon a Mage Hand then it'd render the spell basically useless.
Even if an enemy does hear you re-casting, you can always Hide as a bonus action if you need to reestablish stealth against a enemy that heard you, but doesn't know what they heard.
While the range juggling issue is legitimate it really depends what else you need the bonus action for; you'll need to use it to do the actual pickpocketing anyway so needing to use it isn't really a surprise, and if you're choosing to attack from a range then you're choosing not to use legerdemain in combat. Once you know what you're up against you can simply let the hand disappear if you don't think you'll need it.
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Casting a spell while sneaking reveals your location. This approach is fine if walking around in a party, but it is not viable while scouting alone or even if using stealth as a party.
While Mage Hand has a vocal component, the volume isn't specified, so it's reasonable to assume a quiet whisper is plenty; if you're actively in danger of being detected (i.e- enemies in very close proximity) you can of course stop re-casting the hand until you're out of earshot or re-cast it less frequently to reduce the danger.
You must be silent to sneak. RAW if you are making noise then it breaks stealth, the volume is not really relevant.
You might say other things make noise too-drawing an arrow from a quiver, breathing, opening a door, but those things do not specifically have a noise component and your stealth check is to determine if you do in fact remain silent and hidden. Spells on the other hand MUST make noise to work. That is why you can't use them if silenced.
From Sage Advice:
"If hidden, you stop being hidden if you make appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell), you make an attack, or you're spotted. If you cast a spell that involves none of those stoppers, you're still hidden."
Even if an enemy does hear you re-casting, you can always Hide as a bonus action if you need to reestablish stealth against a enemy that heard you, but doesn't know what they heard.
Sure but then you are rolling a new stealth check every 30 feet, which can fail, instead of rolling once until you break cover. Further if you are in range of an enemy to detect you (which is kind of undefined) then you would lose surprise.
You must be silent to sneak. RAW if you are making noise then it breaks stealth, the volume is not really relevant.
What is your source for this? Unless I've missed something the only rules for stealth in D&D really come from the Stealth skill, Hide action and the Unseen Attackers and Targets section.
In these you are hidden from a target as long as you are "unseen and unheard", that doesn't mean you need to be invisible or silent, you just need to not be noticed by your target, which is not the same thing. In other words, just because you make a sound doesn't mean a creature will hear you, or recognise what they heard, that's pretty much the entire point of opposed Stealth and Perception rolls.
Spells on the other hand MUST make noise to work. That is why you can't use them if silenced.
I've not disputed that; if you're unable to speak, you can't cast the spell. But most spells do not give any indication of volume for vocal components. Even if you assume the words must be spoken at a normal speaking volume, as long as you're not too close to an enemy, and the area you're in isn't totally silent, then there's every chance they won't be able to hear it, or won't know what they heard.
I'm not talking about cases where you're 5-feet behind an enemy constantly recasting Mage Hand out loud, but when you're concealed, or about to move into another room and so-on; there is no cost to recasting unless a spoken word (or whatever your DM rules you must do) is putting you in danger of being immediately caught, in which case you can choose not to.
"If hidden, you stop being hidden if you make appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell), you make an attack, or you're spotted. If you cast a spell that involves none of those stoppers, you're still hidden."
That's not Sage Advice, that's Jeremy Crawford on Twitter; these aren't recognised as official rulings as Crawford does make mistakes and doesn't often go into enough detail in the limits of a Twitter reply. As far as I can tell this was never republished in a proper Sage Advice release on the website or similar.
Sure but then you are rolling a new stealth check every 30 feet, which can fail, instead of rolling once until you break cover. Further if you are in range of an enemy to detect you (which is kind of undefined) then you would lose surprise.
If you've currently got the element of surprise then you don't need to recast it that frequently, you can just wait until a turn or two before you're about to strike, to give yourself room to adapt if the noise is heard (which it may not be), or even better, try to pick their pocket before you fight them, rather than during combat.
My point is that approaching combat there is no real penalty to making sure your Mage Hand is at least active, so you can use legerdemain to use it in combat if that's what you want to be able to do. If you get caught in the open you have the option of casting the hand somewhere with cover, then going there to Hide if that's what you want to do, or you can do something else, but ideally you'd already have the hand nearby so all you have to do is move it.
TL;DR It's a cantrip, so you can cast it a bunch. I shouldn't need to be writing essays on the subject.
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What is your source for this? Unless I've missed something the only rules for stealth in D&D really come from the Stealth skill, Hide action and the Unseen Attackers and Targets section.
In these you are hidden from a target as long as you are "unseen and unheard", that doesn't mean you need to be invisible or silent, you just need to not be noticed by your target, which is not the same thing. In other words, just because you make a sound doesn't mean a creature will hear you, or recognise what they heard, that's pretty much the entire point of opposed Stealth and Perception rolls.
Yes "unheard" means not making noise so that your target can hear you. Unless the target is deaf, you can't be unheard while making noise any more than you can be unseen while walking across an open field.
I've not disputed that; if you're unable to speak, you can't cast the spell. But most spells do not give any indication of volume for vocal components. Even if you assume the words must be spoken at a normal speaking volume, as long as you're not too close to an enemy, and the area you're in isn't totally silent, then there's every chance they won't be able to hear it, or won't know what they heard.
If you are making noise you are making noise and are not being silent. Comparing hearing to vision -- talking versus being silent is akin to being partially obscured versus obscured. You can't be unseen when you are partially obscured and you can't be unheard while you are talking.
I'm not talking about cases where you're 5-feet behind an enemy constantly recasting Mage Hand out loud, but when you're concealed, or about to move into another room and so-on; there is no cost to recasting unless a spoken word (or whatever your DM rules you must do) is putting you in danger of being immediately caught, in which case you can choose not to.
A spoken word is noise. You are not hidden if you are doing that unless the enemy can not hear. You may not be in danger of being caught but you are no longer sneaking.
That's not Sage Advice, that's Jeremy Crawford on Twitter; these aren't recognised as official rulings as Crawford does make mistakes and doesn't often go into enough detail in the limits of a Twitter reply. As far as I can tell this was never republished in a proper Sage Advice release on the website or similar.
Well it is the game designer saying how he intended it to work at least
If you've currently got the element of surprise then you don't need to recast it that frequently, you can just wait until a turn or two before you're about to strike, to give yourself room to adapt if the noise is heard (which it may not be), or even better, try to pick their pocket before you fight them, rather than during combat.
My point is that approaching combat there is no real penalty to making sure your Mage Hand is at least active, so you can use legerdemain to use it in combat if that's what you want to be able to do. If you get caught in the open you have the option of casting the hand somewhere with cover, then going there to Hide if that's what you want to do, or you can do something else, but ideally you'd already have the hand nearby so all you have to do is move it.
If you have "surprise" that means the encounter is starting. You can't "wait a turn or two" because surprise lasts less than a round and you only have 1 turn before the enemy can take actions. If you have surprise you roll initiative right then and there and the enemy is surprised until his first turn ends and can't take actions. That is all surprise is. If the enemy wins initiative surprise will be over before it even gets to your turn.
You can stay hidden if you want but after the enemies first turn he gets actions. That is how surprise works. So you if you have the hand out you can try to pickpocket him in the first round and it is irrelevant if he does or does not notice it or notice you, he goes on his second turn. He can take actions regardless of what you do after his first turn and if he beats you in initiative he can even take reactions before your very first turn.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "approaching combat" in the second paragraph. If you mean you know you are about to enter combat, you are in initiative or about to roll it I agree. If you are scouting a long hallway in a dungeoun with rooms on either side and there may or may not be bad guys in them then I disagree.
For example if the hallway above is 300 feet long I can roll 1 stealth check and that goes against the passive perception of every enemy in that hallway and every enemy I come across until I break cover. I could sneak around for hours on that one stealth roll. If I cast mage hand, even while no one is around, or do anything else to break cover I have to roll another stealth check.
Unless the target is deaf, you can't be unheard while making noise any more than you can be unseen while walking across an open field.
Unheard means that the target did not hear you (not that they couldn't possibly hear you); a spoken word will go unheard if there is other sound in the area, like conversation, music, or a waterfall, it can also be argued that a sound is effectively unheard if the target does not recognise it as strange (i.e- they roll low on Perception and mistake it for the wind, an animal, or they're just not paying attention etc.), as that's what these kinds of checks are for.
If you're going to assume that every environment is perfectly silent and literally any sound is automatically heard, then you're arguing that stealth is impossible in D&D to begin with, because it's basically impossible to move without making any sound unless you use Silence (which renders all vocal spellcasting pointless anyway).
The same is true for sight; you don't need to be invisible or even behind total cover to be unseen, you could be behind half or three quarter cover, skulking in an area of deep shadow or mist, camouflaged, behind the target, or any number of other ways to remain unseen while still potentially within a creature's line of sight. What matters isn't that you can't be seen, but that the target doesn't notice you.
You seem to applying unbelievably strict, arbitrary rulings to the game just to make something impossible for no reason. You keep stating things like they're rules but they're not; many D&D rules are freeform for a reason, because you can't specify every possible scenario, and they're certainly not as explicit as you keep making them out to be, especially when it comes to stealth. If you're going to make an argument as RAW, you need to at least refer to the exact wording as I have done.
You're also ignoring that Jeremy Crawford said "appreciable noise" not "any noise" and he's not ruling on whether vocal components always count as appreciable noise in every possible scenario; the question he is answering is about Subtle Spell. Again, twitter replies are not officially recognised; if it's not in a Sage Advice article, it's not Sage Advice, or an official ruling. We are not bound by everything that Crawford has ever said on Twitter.
Once again, it's a cantrip, you can recast it easily. I did not expect this to become a drawn out and pointless argument, and am unsubcribing from this thread rather than waste any more of my time on this, as it should not be controversial to say that Arcane Tricksters should use one of their features.
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Unless the target is deaf, you can't be unheard while making noise any more than you can be unseen while walking across an open field.
Unheard means that the target did not hear you (not that they couldn't possibly hear you); a spoken word will go unheard if there is other sound in the area, like conversation, music, or a waterfall, it can also be argued that a sound is effectively unheard if the target does not recognise it as strange (i.e- they roll low on Perception and mistake it for the wind, an animal, or they're just not paying attention etc.), as that's what these kinds of checks are for.
If you're going to assume that every environment is perfectly silent and literally any sound is automatically heard, then you're arguing that stealth is impossible in D&D to begin with, because it's basically impossible to move without making any sound unless you use Silence (which renders all vocal spellcasting pointless anyway).
The same is true for sight; you don't need to be invisible or even behind total cover to be unseen, you could be behind half or three quarter cover, skulking in an area of deep shadow or mist, camouflaged, behind the target, or any number of other ways to remain unseen while still potentially within a creature's line of sight. What matters isn't that you can't be seen, but that the target doesn't notice you.
You seem to applying unbelievably strict, arbitrary rulings to the game just to make something impossible for no reason. You keep stating things like they're rules but they're not; many D&D rules are freeform for a reason, because you can't specify every possible scenario, and they're certainly not as explicit as you keep making them out to be, especially when it comes to stealth. If you're going to make an argument as RAW, you need to at least refer to the exact wording as I have done.
You're also ignoring that Jeremy Crawford said "appreciable noise" not "any noise" and he's not ruling on whether vocal components always count as appreciable noise in every possible scenario; the question he is answering is about Subtle Spell. Again, twitter replies are not officially recognised; if it's not in a Sage Advice article, it's not Sage Advice, or an official ruling. We are not bound by everything that Crawford has ever said on Twitter.
Once again, it's a cantrip, you can recast it easily. I did not expect this to become a drawn out and pointless argument, and am unsubcribing from this thread rather than waste any more of my time on this, as it should not be controversial to say that Arcane Tricksters should use one of their features.
If you are being stealthy you are trying to be silent .... yes you are TRYING to be COMPLETELY SILENT. That is the point. If you are casting verbal spells at the same time you are not sneaking. Why can't you shout and roll stealth to stay hidden at the same time? Or you can even use a megaphone, maybe no one will hear it if you roll a good stealth check?
You are ignoring what Crawford said! The exact quote was " appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell)". He specifically says casting a spell with a verbal component is an "appreciable noise". You can say it is not an official ruling but the game designer agrees with me and it is pretty much common sense.
You can absolutely recast it easily, but that is an action and in combat that is quite costly.
Mage hand lasts one minute. How many combat encounters last 10 rounds?
Once you cast it, you don't need to keep recasting it.
It lasts 10 rounds if you stay within 30 feet of it, which is not always easy as a Rogue. You also have to give up an action, which is usually a sneak attack, to cast it that first time and that is a very high opportunity cost.
I have played a lot of Arcane Tricksters. Mage Hand Legerdemain is pretty awesome in combat, but when I use it, it is usually because I cast it right before we open a door or go upstairs or something like that. It is rare that I cast it once Combat starts because of the opportunity cost. It is not never, but it is not regularly either. If it is out though and in range of both me and an enemy I will use it often in combat.
Also if you are going to use it in combat I highly recommend the telekenetic feat due to the range increase that comes with it.
I've been doing some character creation and looking into the skills a bit more than I usually would.
For Sleight of Hand it says that, "Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The GM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket."
With the literal definition leaving "manual trickery" pretty open and vague, what would everyone think of using it in combat? Feign attacks to increase hit chance, swapping weapons mid attack, aiming for specific parts of armor/body to disable or impede, etc etc.
Everything I've read essentially sums SoH as a useless skill and exceptionally worthless in combat.
Sleight of hand is the skill for pickpockets, shoplifters, and stage magicians. It's useful if a player and DM actually want to use it, it's useless if one or both does not. As for combat, it's hard to justify using it for anything, but then that's true for most skills in most combats.
Maybe you could use it before combat to tie down or jam a warrior's sword in the scabbard to make it harder to draw, or loosening or cutting the bowstring on his crossbow, or stealing his bolts. Maybe you steal his dagger. Maybe you loosen the fasteners on his breastplate to create a vulnerable spot. It would be hard to do, but in the right social situations it might be possible.
Sleight of hand is often more useful out of combat than in combat. At the very least for most rogue's it's taking up your action to do with certain exceptions. keep in mind the thief archetype can actually use it as a bonus action instead which makes it more combat viable. But it's something to perhaps discuss with you DM a bit if you want to make use of it and when it is appropriate or the kind of restrictions it might have for your Rogue.
I think this post quoted here describes the best application of sleights of hand in combat, since there are already abilities in Rogue and other classes/subclass that specifically allow you to gain advantage through feints and underhanded tactics.
I've used it for stealing spell focuses/material components/ammunition from enemies.
Depending on the situation, a DM could rule that a sleight of hand falls under "Other Activity on your turn". This would allow your character to enter combat, attack with a drawn weapon, use sleight of hand to take something from the NPC/PC, then use cunning action to disengage and back away. Seems quite reasonable if the item isn't massive, or in the targets hands. In fact, it could add spice to the combat situation if you use sleight of hand to loosen your opponents cloak strap, or belt buckle. The DM could rule, on a high role, that their pants are falling down and they'll have disadvantage (or something) until they use a free action to fix (on their turn). You could be attempting to pull a scroll from a wizard, and you get close enough to get it, and they might not know you're a rogue or aiming for this scroll. We can't assume any of the NPCs or other's in the game know you're a rogue. It's a tricky situation.
In a game we played, there was an object everyone was seeking to get, so it was always in someone's hand. In that case it was an action to get, and opposing athletics rolls (may have included acrobatics too, as you can get flavorful with a grab, flip and yank...). Up to the DM, but seems like a useful tactic given some situations. I'm assuming DM would set up those for it to succeed. Our DM rewards creativity, as long as its within reason. Makes for a fun and flavorful session, not always focusing combat on death.
Sorry for the necromancy, but...
So the thing about Slieght of Hand is that it's rooted in stage magic and misdirection. Yes, the skill's primary usage in D&D is pickpocketing -- but ultimately the entire focus of the skill is tricking the eye and the mind (I'd personally allow Int + Sleight of Hand to plan out tricks...and Wis+Sleight of Hand to detect them, but of course alternative attributes is an optional, albeit very good, rule).
The webcomic Girl Genius has some excellent (and sometimes extreme) examples of Sleight of Hand used in combat--look for any fight with Violetta, where she slips out of an opponent's hold (wrestling) without letting them realize she's done so (now that's sleight of hand), and at other times swaps an ally out for a dummy placed cunningly so the enemy doesn't figure out the swap until they've already struck. The key is, very often, not the actual movement -- but the ability to trick and work with perception, so the enemy doesn't realize the trick until they've already wasted their action.
And, of course, there's a key example in the climax of Avengers: Endgame. "and I am Iron Man." (and you have no -idea- how high the bonus to my slight of hand this armor gives me). [No spoilers!]
Swap an enemy's Potion of Healing for a Potion of Poison. 😄
I think there are as many uses as you can think of really; it's something you should absolutely use when you can as an Arcane Trickster (since you can use Mage Hand Legerdemain to do it at range, though it may require two steps) or as a Thief (who can use Fast Hands) as both can do it as a bonus action.
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It is really useful in combat for arcane tricksters, a bit less useful for thieves and not very useful for anyone else.
RAW Arcane Tricksters can use SOH as a bonus action to take something out of a container if using their mage hand legerdemain. So if you have mage hand out there is a ton of potential. A common use is to steal weapons out of their sheath or wands or a spell focus. The only trick is it takes an action to cast Mage Hand so you need to have it out ahead of time to make this efficient.
Theives can use SOH as a bonus action too. The up side is they do not have to cast mage hand first, the downsides are they have to be right next to the person they are using it on and the rules do not explicitly say you can try to steal things with a bonus action like they do for mage hand legerdemain (and as a result many DMs will say you can't do that in combat)
Other classes can technically try this sort of thing in combat too, but it is less viable for them because it takes an action and requires them to be within reach of the enemy.
Rogues get a ton of bonus action options so even with ATs and Thieves there is still an opportunity cost to doing it.
Since Mage Hand is a cantrip you can just assume your Arcane Trickster is refreshing the timer when they're not doing anything else; probably by discussing with your DM rather than declaring it every six seconds that you're not in combat. If you're an Arcane Trickster and you don't have your mage hand out then are you really an Arcane Trickster? 😉
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Not really true for two reasons.
1. Casting a spell while sneaking reveals your location. This approach is fine if walking around in a party, but it is not viable while scouting alone or even if using stealth as a party.
2. The 30 foot limit can be very debilitating and often results in losing the hand in combat. If you cast mage hand and then fling the door open (or use the hand to) and the enemy is 50 feet in the room it is going to be difficult to get it to them. You need to use a bonus to move it 30 foot closer .... assuming you are at the door if you are a couple ranks back behind the beef then you might not even be able to that. Then on your next turn you are going to have to move forward so you can move the hand forward again and get it into the fight. Doing that takes another BA you might use. So that is two bonus actions to get the hand into the fight. IT is 2 BAs that can't be used for cunning action, steady aim etc and on top of that you had to move well into the room where you might have wanted to stay and snipe from the doorway..
Getting the telekenetic feat helps quite a bit on the 30 foot limit..
While Mage Hand has a vocal component, the volume isn't specified, so it's reasonable to assume a quiet whisper is plenty; if you're actively in danger of being detected (i.e- enemies in very close proximity) you can of course stop re-casting the hand until you're out of earshot or re-cast it less frequently to reduce the danger.
The use of a vocal component doesn't guarantee stealth is broken unless the vocal component is specified as loud; I'd say in most cases it's reasonable to just ask for another Stealth check (as you might ask for Sleight of Hand for a spell with somatic components to remain unnoticed). If you had to shout to summon a Mage Hand then it'd render the spell basically useless.
Even if an enemy does hear you re-casting, you can always Hide as a bonus action if you need to reestablish stealth against a enemy that heard you, but doesn't know what they heard.
While the range juggling issue is legitimate it really depends what else you need the bonus action for; you'll need to use it to do the actual pickpocketing anyway so needing to use it isn't really a surprise, and if you're choosing to attack from a range then you're choosing not to use legerdemain in combat. Once you know what you're up against you can simply let the hand disappear if you don't think you'll need it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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You must be silent to sneak. RAW if you are making noise then it breaks stealth, the volume is not really relevant.
You might say other things make noise too-drawing an arrow from a quiver, breathing, opening a door, but those things do not specifically have a noise component and your stealth check is to determine if you do in fact remain silent and hidden. Spells on the other hand MUST make noise to work. That is why you can't use them if silenced.
From Sage Advice:
"If hidden, you stop being hidden if you make appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell), you make an attack, or you're spotted. If you cast a spell that involves none of those stoppers, you're still hidden."
Sure but then you are rolling a new stealth check every 30 feet, which can fail, instead of rolling once until you break cover. Further if you are in range of an enemy to detect you (which is kind of undefined) then you would lose surprise.
What is your source for this? Unless I've missed something the only rules for stealth in D&D really come from the Stealth skill, Hide action and the Unseen Attackers and Targets section.
In these you are hidden from a target as long as you are "unseen and unheard", that doesn't mean you need to be invisible or silent, you just need to not be noticed by your target, which is not the same thing. In other words, just because you make a sound doesn't mean a creature will hear you, or recognise what they heard, that's pretty much the entire point of opposed Stealth and Perception rolls.
I've not disputed that; if you're unable to speak, you can't cast the spell. But most spells do not give any indication of volume for vocal components. Even if you assume the words must be spoken at a normal speaking volume, as long as you're not too close to an enemy, and the area you're in isn't totally silent, then there's every chance they won't be able to hear it, or won't know what they heard.
I'm not talking about cases where you're 5-feet behind an enemy constantly recasting Mage Hand out loud, but when you're concealed, or about to move into another room and so-on; there is no cost to recasting unless a spoken word (or whatever your DM rules you must do) is putting you in danger of being immediately caught, in which case you can choose not to.
That's not Sage Advice, that's Jeremy Crawford on Twitter; these aren't recognised as official rulings as Crawford does make mistakes and doesn't often go into enough detail in the limits of a Twitter reply. As far as I can tell this was never republished in a proper Sage Advice release on the website or similar.
If you've currently got the element of surprise then you don't need to recast it that frequently, you can just wait until a turn or two before you're about to strike, to give yourself room to adapt if the noise is heard (which it may not be), or even better, try to pick their pocket before you fight them, rather than during combat.
My point is that approaching combat there is no real penalty to making sure your Mage Hand is at least active, so you can use legerdemain to use it in combat if that's what you want to be able to do. If you get caught in the open you have the option of casting the hand somewhere with cover, then going there to Hide if that's what you want to do, or you can do something else, but ideally you'd already have the hand nearby so all you have to do is move it.
TL;DR
It's a cantrip, so you can cast it a bunch. I shouldn't need to be writing essays on the subject.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Yes "unheard" means not making noise so that your target can hear you. Unless the target is deaf, you can't be unheard while making noise any more than you can be unseen while walking across an open field.
If you are making noise you are making noise and are not being silent. Comparing hearing to vision -- talking versus being silent is akin to being partially obscured versus obscured. You can't be unseen when you are partially obscured and you can't be unheard while you are talking.
A spoken word is noise. You are not hidden if you are doing that unless the enemy can not hear. You may not be in danger of being caught but you are no longer sneaking.
Well it is the game designer saying how he intended it to work at least
If you have "surprise" that means the encounter is starting. You can't "wait a turn or two" because surprise lasts less than a round and you only have 1 turn before the enemy can take actions. If you have surprise you roll initiative right then and there and the enemy is surprised until his first turn ends and can't take actions. That is all surprise is. If the enemy wins initiative surprise will be over before it even gets to your turn.
You can stay hidden if you want but after the enemies first turn he gets actions. That is how surprise works. So you if you have the hand out you can try to pickpocket him in the first round and it is irrelevant if he does or does not notice it or notice you, he goes on his second turn. He can take actions regardless of what you do after his first turn and if he beats you in initiative he can even take reactions before your very first turn.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "approaching combat" in the second paragraph. If you mean you know you are about to enter combat, you are in initiative or about to roll it I agree. If you are scouting a long hallway in a dungeoun with rooms on either side and there may or may not be bad guys in them then I disagree.
For example if the hallway above is 300 feet long I can roll 1 stealth check and that goes against the passive perception of every enemy in that hallway and every enemy I come across until I break cover. I could sneak around for hours on that one stealth roll. If I cast mage hand, even while no one is around, or do anything else to break cover I have to roll another stealth check.
Unheard means that the target did not hear you (not that they couldn't possibly hear you); a spoken word will go unheard if there is other sound in the area, like conversation, music, or a waterfall, it can also be argued that a sound is effectively unheard if the target does not recognise it as strange (i.e- they roll low on Perception and mistake it for the wind, an animal, or they're just not paying attention etc.), as that's what these kinds of checks are for.
If you're going to assume that every environment is perfectly silent and literally any sound is automatically heard, then you're arguing that stealth is impossible in D&D to begin with, because it's basically impossible to move without making any sound unless you use Silence (which renders all vocal spellcasting pointless anyway).
The same is true for sight; you don't need to be invisible or even behind total cover to be unseen, you could be behind half or three quarter cover, skulking in an area of deep shadow or mist, camouflaged, behind the target, or any number of other ways to remain unseen while still potentially within a creature's line of sight. What matters isn't that you can't be seen, but that the target doesn't notice you.
You seem to applying unbelievably strict, arbitrary rulings to the game just to make something impossible for no reason. You keep stating things like they're rules but they're not; many D&D rules are freeform for a reason, because you can't specify every possible scenario, and they're certainly not as explicit as you keep making them out to be, especially when it comes to stealth. If you're going to make an argument as RAW, you need to at least refer to the exact wording as I have done.
You're also ignoring that Jeremy Crawford said "appreciable noise" not "any noise" and he's not ruling on whether vocal components always count as appreciable noise in every possible scenario; the question he is answering is about Subtle Spell. Again, twitter replies are not officially recognised; if it's not in a Sage Advice article, it's not Sage Advice, or an official ruling. We are not bound by everything that Crawford has ever said on Twitter.
Once again, it's a cantrip, you can recast it easily. I did not expect this to become a drawn out and pointless argument, and am unsubcribing from this thread rather than waste any more of my time on this, as it should not be controversial to say that Arcane Tricksters should use one of their features.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Mage hand lasts one minute. How many combat encounters last 10 rounds?
Once you cast it, you don't need to keep recasting it.
If you are being stealthy you are trying to be silent .... yes you are TRYING to be COMPLETELY SILENT. That is the point. If you are casting verbal spells at the same time you are not sneaking. Why can't you shout and roll stealth to stay hidden at the same time? Or you can even use a megaphone, maybe no one will hear it if you roll a good stealth check?
You are ignoring what Crawford said! The exact quote was " appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell)". He specifically says casting a spell with a verbal component is an "appreciable noise". You can say it is not an official ruling but the game designer agrees with me and it is pretty much common sense.
You can absolutely recast it easily, but that is an action and in combat that is quite costly.
It lasts 10 rounds if you stay within 30 feet of it, which is not always easy as a Rogue. You also have to give up an action, which is usually a sneak attack, to cast it that first time and that is a very high opportunity cost.
I have played a lot of Arcane Tricksters. Mage Hand Legerdemain is pretty awesome in combat, but when I use it, it is usually because I cast it right before we open a door or go upstairs or something like that. It is rare that I cast it once Combat starts because of the opportunity cost. It is not never, but it is not regularly either. If it is out though and in range of both me and an enemy I will use it often in combat.
Also if you are going to use it in combat I highly recommend the telekenetic feat due to the range increase that comes with it.