The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
If you're using it to get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack), you'd probably be better served by casting Find Familiar and calling an owl. It's permanent until/unless killed, and serves a number of other uses as well.
The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
If you're using it to get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack), you'd probably be better served by casting Find Familiar and calling an owl. It's permanent until/unless killed, and serves a number of other uses as well.
In combat, with high level characters (13+) it is unlikely it will survive 2 rounds if helping a Rogue land Sneak attack. An AT also can't cast it as a ritual so you are talking about burning a spell slot before every combat and lugging around a 5lb brazier a bunch of incense and wasting an hour every time it dies.
At 13th level you only get 2 spells that are not enchantments or illusions and you are passing on some pretty awesome spells to keep Find Famiiliar on your list (Counterspell, Misty Step, Haste, Fireball .....).
Haste in particular is awesome with an AT. Cast Haste, attack, bonus action disengage on the 1st turn. Next turn use your haste attack first, if it lands cast mage hand and disengage with your action, if it misses attack again with your action and disengage with your bonus. This lets you cast Mage hand for nearly free and once your hand is on the battlefield you can use it every turn to steal something, pour oil, light oil, give advantage etc while still using booming blade or GFB and disengaging with your haste action.
Since you can do these sequentially you have a ton of flexibility and can switch it up as the nsituation warrants. Use BB/GFB, if it hits use your, haste action to disengage and you bonus to steal an enemies spell focus or component pouch or arrows or whatever. If the cantrip misses make an attack with your haste action and then disengage with your bonus.
I think you will get a lot more mileage out of that then find familiar.
If you are being stealthy you are trying to be silent .... yes you are TRYING to be COMPLETELY SILENT. That is the point. If you are casting verbal spells at the same time you are not sneaking. Why can't you shout and roll stealth to stay hidden at the same time? Or you can even use a megaphone, maybe no one will hear it if you roll a good stealth check?
Regarding the question "How loud is the verbal component of a spell", it simply is up to the DM. Of course, if you need to emit 50 dB of noise with your voice to cast something, it'll be heard in most environment, but maybe not all environment.
I agree that while stealthing, one is trying to be silent. However, one can rarely be completely silent (breathing is about 20 dB after all). That's the reason why things like "Pass without Trace" or "Boots of Elvenkind" exists, to help mitigate the sound emitted by a stealthing person, and perhaps even help with the Verbal component of a spell, should you try to cast one while stealthing (you'd be better off using "Metamagic: Subtle spell" but that'd take a feat to get to). And also why Stealth is often opposed to the target's perception check (or its Passive).
In the end, it really is up to the DM as to how they rule the Verbal component's noise level and how it affects Stealth.
I did find the discussion a interesting and will certainly think a bit more on the impact of casting...
The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
If you're using it to get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack), you'd probably be better served by casting Find Familiar and calling an owl. It's permanent until/unless killed, and serves a number of other uses as well.
In combat, with high level characters (13+) it is unlikely it will survive 2 rounds if helping a Rogue land Sneak attack. An AT also can't cast it as a ritual so you are talking about burning a spell slot before every combat and lugging around a 5lb brazier a bunch of incense and wasting an hour every time it dies.
At 13th level you only get 2 spells that are not enchantments or illusions and you are passing on some pretty awesome spells to keep Find Famiiliar on your list (Counterspell, Misty Step, Haste, Fireball .....).
Haste in particular is awesome with an AT. Cast Haste, attack, bonus action disengage on the 1st turn. Next turn use your haste attack first, if it lands cast mage hand and disengage with your action, if it misses attack again with your action and disengage with your bonus. This lets you cast Mage hand for nearly free and once your hand is on the battlefield you can use it every turn to steal something, pour oil, light oil, give advantage etc while still using booming blade or GFB and disengaging with your haste action.
Since you can do these sequentially you have a ton of flexibility and can switch it up as the nsituation warrants. Use BB/GFB, if it hits use your, haste action to disengage and you bonus to steal an enemies spell focus or component pouch or arrows or whatever. If the cantrip misses make an attack with your haste action and then disengage with your bonus.
I think you will get a lot more mileage out of that then find familiar.
Owls have flyby, so your familiar can swoop in to give you help and then swoop away to a safe distance. If your opponent is targeting your owl instead of you, then he's making a mistake. If you're worried about wasting a spell choice on Find Familiar, then take either Ritual Caster or Mage Initiate, take a one-level dip in Wizard, or scribe a bunch of Find Familiar scrolls and then swap FF out for another spell.
Owls have flyby, so your familiar can swoop in to give you help and then swoop away to a safe distance.
Indeed, Owls are, to my opinion, the best familiar a rogue could wish for, mechanically. I'll write it here, in case a fellow new rogue reads that and wonders :
On top of having Flyby (The owl doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach.), they have 60 ft of flying speed. So they can 30 ft to go in, do the Help Action, then 30 ft to go out and/or above (to be away from AOE), perhaps even go behind cover.
They also have Advantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks, so you could, theoretically, always look through their eyes and ears. It's only at +3 but still, alongside Darkvision 120 ft, PRETTY darn useful! :D
Dexterity (Sight of Hand) checks are primarly used for legerdemain and manual trickery, usually involve pickpocketing or deception in some way, which is rarely used un combat. But there could be times when it gets useful by fooling an opposent to gain avantage or other benefits, say by concealing a small weapon while mimicing dropping it in a canal or putting it back on your person etc...
Dexterity (Sight of Hand) checks are primarly used for legerdemain and manual trickery, usually involve pickpocketing or deception in some way, which is rarely used un combat. But there could be times when it gets useful by fooling an opposent to gain avantage or other benefits, say by concealing a small weapon while mimicing dropping it in a canal or putting it back on your person etc...
The rules say Mage Hand Legerdemain is a bonus action, which means it is mostly intended for use in combat as bonus actions are more or less meaningless out of combat.
The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
If you're using it to get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack), you'd probably be better served by casting Find Familiar and calling an owl. It's permanent until/unless killed, and serves a number of other uses as well.
In combat, with high level characters (13+) it is unlikely it will survive 2 rounds if helping a Rogue land Sneak attack. An AT also can't cast it as a ritual so you are talking about burning a spell slot before every combat and lugging around a 5lb brazier a bunch of incense and wasting an hour every time it dies.
At 13th level you only get 2 spells that are not enchantments or illusions and you are passing on some pretty awesome spells to keep Find Famiiliar on your list (Counterspell, Misty Step, Haste, Fireball .....).
Haste in particular is awesome with an AT. Cast Haste, attack, bonus action disengage on the 1st turn. Next turn use your haste attack first, if it lands cast mage hand and disengage with your action, if it misses attack again with your action and disengage with your bonus. This lets you cast Mage hand for nearly free and once your hand is on the battlefield you can use it every turn to steal something, pour oil, light oil, give advantage etc while still using booming blade or GFB and disengaging with your haste action.
Since you can do these sequentially you have a ton of flexibility and can switch it up as the nsituation warrants. Use BB/GFB, if it hits use your, haste action to disengage and you bonus to steal an enemies spell focus or component pouch or arrows or whatever. If the cantrip misses make an attack with your haste action and then disengage with your bonus.
I think you will get a lot more mileage out of that then find familiar.
Owls have flyby, so your familiar can swoop in to give you help and then swoop away to a safe distance. If your opponent is targeting your owl instead of you, then he's making a mistake. If you're worried about wasting a spell choice on Find Familiar, then take either Ritual Caster or Mage Initiate, take a one-level dip in Wizard, or scribe a bunch of Find Familiar scrolls and then swap FF out for another spell.
Owls can't be attacked with an AOO but they can be attacked every other way, to include a readied melee attack if necessary and they are really, really weak. Their AC is low enough a missile attack with disadvantage will still usually kill them. So an enemy with hands who is engaged can throw something at them with a good chance of killing them.
In combat action economy is huge. If you have the opportunity to kill something and take it out of the battle permanently you generally should. It is generally better to target what you can kill this turn because it will take that piece off the battlefield for the rest of the battle. That will usually be a familiar, even an owl, if it is being used for help. If the owl is being used to give a Rogue advantage it is generally better to kill the owl than damage someone else, even if you have to lose attacks or take damage through an AOO yourself to do it. That is a broad statement that does not cover every case but it is usually true.
Look at it this way. I have a bad guy with multiattack. I can ready an action and attack the owl when he flys in and that is 1 less action the party has for the entire battle in exchange for one of my actions. Or I can take 2 swings at the fighter and nothing changes this turn. That assumes I can't just throw something at him and take 1 action away from the party for the cost of one attack.
You also have to consider spells like aid and healing word. If you hit an owl at all it is out of the battle for good. Even if you can down a character this very turn there is a good chance they will be back before next turn unless you can hit him 3 more times to wipe out his death saves.
Owls have flyby, so your familiar can swoop in to give you help and then swoop away to a safe distance.
Indeed, Owls are, to my opinion, the best familiar a rogue could wish for, mechanically. I'll write it here, in case a fellow new rogue reads that and wonders :
I have played many Rogues with familiars. IME a Tressym, if the DM allows it, is the best RAW familiar to have because of the see invisibility, detect poison and it is a crapton more durable than the other wizard familiars. A Bat is second best because of the blindsight. Owl is quite a distant third in my experience, and I have had all three.
The biggest issue with an owl is they are the best in combat, but that is relative and they die a lot. In my experience in tier 2 they are killed in 1-2 battles on average if you use them to help. If you aren't using them in combat then they don't die but then the other two are much better.
Bonus action can serve many purposes and are not solely combat related. And Dexterity (lSleiight of Hand) checks legerdemain are not strictly exclusive to Arcane Trickster, its something anyone can do.
Bonus action can serve many purposes and are not solely combat related. And Dexterity (lSleiight of Hand) checks legerdemain are not strictly exclusive to Arcane Trickster, its something anyone can do.
I don't know why you would need a bonus action out of combat. If you are not in combat you are not counting initiative or numbered actions.
I agree it is not exclusive to ATs, but Mage Hand Legerdemain on an AT has explicit rules to accomplish it and those rules have no restrictions to being in combat or out of combat.
The rules strictly state things the the class can do with Mage Hand Legerdemain. With other classes it is more up to a DM. For example I want to steal a wand from a wand case on an enemy mage. The rules explicitly say an AT can do that as a bonus action using Mage Hand Legerdemain and provide the mechanic to accomplish it (SOH vs Perception), so if I have my bonus action I can do it. The DM has to house rule that away and deviate from RAW for it not to be an option.
Another character attempting the same thing (steal a wand in combat) would be entirely reliant on the DM's judgement of the situation as there are no explicit rules - Is it slight of hand or is it deception or something else? Is it perception or insight for the challenger....... is it with disadvantage because they are in combat or is it a flat roll or is it just impossible!
ATs and Thiefs are also the only characters that can attempt it as a bonus action. Others would need an action.
There are ressources usable as a bonus action, which an action cannot be used for so wether in combat or not, you can use it unless its only usable in combat. Ex. Second Wind, Bardic Inspiration, Misty Step, Healing Word etc
I've been doing some character creation and looking into the skills a bit more than I usually would.
For Sleight of Hand it says that, "Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The GM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket."
With the literal definition leaving "manual trickery" pretty open and vague, what would everyone think of using it in combat? Feign attacks to increase hit chance, swapping weapons mid attack, aiming for specific parts of armor/body to disable or impede, etc etc.
Everything I've read essentially sums SoH as a useless skill and exceptionally worthless in combat.
It's just as useless as History, Nature, Survival, Persuasion etc in combat. You rarely use skills in combat except mostly Athletics and Stealth.
Sleight of Hand is situational like many skills but I use it for hiding things on your person, escape bonds, slipping poison in somebody's cup, removing things without being seen, cheating at cards.
It's just as useless as History, Nature, Survival, Persuasion etc in combat. You rarely use skills in combat except mostly Athletics and Stealth.
As a DM i often make use of these ability checks & skills in combat, mostly as knowledge checks to learn informations on monsters such as origin, abilities and weaknesses, and or to bring hostilities to an end through persuasion or intimidation.
Bonus action can serve many purposes and are not solely combat related. And Dexterity (lSleiight of Hand) checks legerdemain are not strictly exclusive to Arcane Trickster, its something anyone can do.
I don't know why you would need a bonus action out of combat. If you are not in combat you are not counting initiative or numbered actions.
even when not in combat You still can only do one thing at at time. (The turns are basically just not limited to the 6 seconds) This is a huge problem with many players under powering certain classes (travel for one. only a ranger can remain alert and do other things (aka use perception and another action) )
When it comes to a rogue. Being able to slight of hand at the same time as persuade or intimidate is actually brilliant. Planting evidence or stealing a object while being able to actively affect other parts of the situation is huge.
It's just as useless as History, Nature, Survival, Persuasion etc in combat. You rarely use skills in combat except mostly Athletics and Stealth.
As a DM i often make use of these ability checks & skills in combat, mostly as knowledge checks to learn informations on monsters such as origin, abilities and weaknesses, and or to bring hostilities to an end through persuasion or intimidation.
I agree skills are huge in combat. sometimes there are environmental interactions. sometimes there are creature interactions.
The most famous example of History in combat is Strahd. there is a whole part of the adventure just to gain Knowledge about him (his journal) and he would do almost anything to get it back. Now using that information is going to take some form of skill just to take advantage. how many times do we see players assume something completely wrong where a simple insight, history , Archana or whatever would confirm or deny suspicions.
I've been doing some character creation and looking into the skills a bit more than I usually would.
For Sleight of Hand it says that, "Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The GM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket."
With the literal definition leaving "manual trickery" pretty open and vague, what would everyone think of using it in combat? Feign attacks to increase hit chance, swapping weapons mid attack, aiming for specific parts of armor/body to disable or impede, etc etc.
Everything I've read essentially sums SoH as a useless skill and exceptionally worthless in combat.
My rogue actually did that against an Arch Druid...I casted silence spell on a ball bearing and then attacked her doing the slight of hand roll with my off hand with that ball bearing in her pocket....totally ruined her short life.
The only times I've ever cast it in combat were at 13+ when my allies utterly failed at getting me a sneak attack. When the choice is between attacking for d6+5 or so damage or casting mage hand, it becomes much more attractive as an option.
If you're using it to get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack), you'd probably be better served by casting Find Familiar and calling an owl. It's permanent until/unless killed, and serves a number of other uses as well.
In combat, with high level characters (13+) it is unlikely it will survive 2 rounds if helping a Rogue land Sneak attack. An AT also can't cast it as a ritual so you are talking about burning a spell slot before every combat and lugging around a 5lb brazier a bunch of incense and wasting an hour every time it dies.
At 13th level you only get 2 spells that are not enchantments or illusions and you are passing on some pretty awesome spells to keep Find Famiiliar on your list (Counterspell, Misty Step, Haste, Fireball .....).
Haste in particular is awesome with an AT. Cast Haste, attack, bonus action disengage on the 1st turn. Next turn use your haste attack first, if it lands cast mage hand and disengage with your action, if it misses attack again with your action and disengage with your bonus. This lets you cast Mage hand for nearly free and once your hand is on the battlefield you can use it every turn to steal something, pour oil, light oil, give advantage etc while still using booming blade or GFB and disengaging with your haste action.
Since you can do these sequentially you have a ton of flexibility and can switch it up as the nsituation warrants. Use BB/GFB, if it hits use your, haste action to disengage and you bonus to steal an enemies spell focus or component pouch or arrows or whatever. If the cantrip misses make an attack with your haste action and then disengage with your bonus.
I think you will get a lot more mileage out of that then find familiar.
Regarding the question "How loud is the verbal component of a spell", it simply is up to the DM. Of course, if you need to emit 50 dB of noise with your voice to cast something, it'll be heard in most environment, but maybe not all environment.
I agree that while stealthing, one is trying to be silent. However, one can rarely be completely silent (breathing is about 20 dB after all). That's the reason why things like "Pass without Trace" or "Boots of Elvenkind" exists, to help mitigate the sound emitted by a stealthing person, and perhaps even help with the Verbal component of a spell, should you try to cast one while stealthing (you'd be better off using "Metamagic: Subtle spell" but that'd take a feat to get to). And also why Stealth is often opposed to the target's perception check (or its Passive).
In the end, it really is up to the DM as to how they rule the Verbal component's noise level and how it affects Stealth.
I did find the discussion a interesting and will certainly think a bit more on the impact of casting...
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
Owls have flyby, so your familiar can swoop in to give you help and then swoop away to a safe distance. If your opponent is targeting your owl instead of you, then he's making a mistake. If you're worried about wasting a spell choice on Find Familiar, then take either Ritual Caster or Mage Initiate, take a one-level dip in Wizard, or scribe a bunch of Find Familiar scrolls and then swap FF out for another spell.
Indeed, Owls are, to my opinion, the best familiar a rogue could wish for, mechanically. I'll write it here, in case a fellow new rogue reads that and wonders :
On top of having Flyby (The owl doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach.), they have 60 ft of flying speed. So they can 30 ft to go in, do the Help Action, then 30 ft to go out and/or above (to be away from AOE), perhaps even go behind cover.
They also have Advantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks, so you could, theoretically, always look through their eyes and ears. It's only at +3 but still, alongside Darkvision 120 ft, PRETTY darn useful! :D
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
Dexterity (Sight of Hand) checks are primarly used for legerdemain and manual trickery, usually involve pickpocketing or deception in some way, which is rarely used un combat. But there could be times when it gets useful by fooling an opposent to gain avantage or other benefits, say by concealing a small weapon while mimicing dropping it in a canal or putting it back on your person etc...
The rules say Mage Hand Legerdemain is a bonus action, which means it is mostly intended for use in combat as bonus actions are more or less meaningless out of combat.
Owls can't be attacked with an AOO but they can be attacked every other way, to include a readied melee attack if necessary and they are really, really weak. Their AC is low enough a missile attack with disadvantage will still usually kill them. So an enemy with hands who is engaged can throw something at them with a good chance of killing them.
In combat action economy is huge. If you have the opportunity to kill something and take it out of the battle permanently you generally should. It is generally better to target what you can kill this turn because it will take that piece off the battlefield for the rest of the battle. That will usually be a familiar, even an owl, if it is being used for help. If the owl is being used to give a Rogue advantage it is generally better to kill the owl than damage someone else, even if you have to lose attacks or take damage through an AOO yourself to do it. That is a broad statement that does not cover every case but it is usually true.
Look at it this way. I have a bad guy with multiattack. I can ready an action and attack the owl when he flys in and that is 1 less action the party has for the entire battle in exchange for one of my actions. Or I can take 2 swings at the fighter and nothing changes this turn. That assumes I can't just throw something at him and take 1 action away from the party for the cost of one attack.
You also have to consider spells like aid and healing word. If you hit an owl at all it is out of the battle for good. Even if you can down a character this very turn there is a good chance they will be back before next turn unless you can hit him 3 more times to wipe out his death saves.
I agree on all the alternative ways to get FF.
I have played many Rogues with familiars. IME a Tressym, if the DM allows it, is the best RAW familiar to have because of the see invisibility, detect poison and it is a crapton more durable than the other wizard familiars. A Bat is second best because of the blindsight. Owl is quite a distant third in my experience, and I have had all three.
The biggest issue with an owl is they are the best in combat, but that is relative and they die a lot. In my experience in tier 2 they are killed in 1-2 battles on average if you use them to help. If you aren't using them in combat then they don't die but then the other two are much better.
Bonus action can serve many purposes and are not solely combat related. And Dexterity (lSleiight of Hand) checks legerdemain are not strictly exclusive to Arcane Trickster, its something anyone can do.
I don't know why you would need a bonus action out of combat. If you are not in combat you are not counting initiative or numbered actions.
I agree it is not exclusive to ATs, but Mage Hand Legerdemain on an AT has explicit rules to accomplish it and those rules have no restrictions to being in combat or out of combat.
The rules strictly state things the the class can do with Mage Hand Legerdemain. With other classes it is more up to a DM. For example I want to steal a wand from a wand case on an enemy mage. The rules explicitly say an AT can do that as a bonus action using Mage Hand Legerdemain and provide the mechanic to accomplish it (SOH vs Perception), so if I have my bonus action I can do it. The DM has to house rule that away and deviate from RAW for it not to be an option.
Another character attempting the same thing (steal a wand in combat) would be entirely reliant on the DM's judgement of the situation as there are no explicit rules - Is it slight of hand or is it deception or something else? Is it perception or insight for the challenger....... is it with disadvantage because they are in combat or is it a flat roll or is it just impossible!
ATs and Thiefs are also the only characters that can attempt it as a bonus action. Others would need an action.
There are ressources usable as a bonus action, which an action cannot be used for so wether in combat or not, you can use it unless its only usable in combat. Ex. Second Wind, Bardic Inspiration, Misty Step, Healing Word etc
It's just as useless as History, Nature, Survival, Persuasion etc in combat. You rarely use skills in combat except mostly Athletics and Stealth.
Sleight of Hand is situational like many skills but I use it for hiding things on your person, escape bonds, slipping poison in somebody's cup, removing things without being seen, cheating at cards.
As a DM i often make use of these ability checks & skills in combat, mostly as knowledge checks to learn informations on monsters such as origin, abilities and weaknesses, and or to bring hostilities to an end through persuasion or intimidation.
even when not in combat You still can only do one thing at at time. (The turns are basically just not limited to the 6 seconds) This is a huge problem with many players under powering certain classes (travel for one. only a ranger can remain alert and do other things (aka use perception and another action) )
When it comes to a rogue. Being able to slight of hand at the same time as persuade or intimidate is actually brilliant. Planting evidence or stealing a object while being able to actively affect other parts of the situation is huge.
I agree skills are huge in combat. sometimes there are environmental interactions. sometimes there are creature interactions.
The most famous example of History in combat is Strahd. there is a whole part of the adventure just to gain Knowledge about him (his journal) and he would do almost anything to get it back. Now using that information is going to take some form of skill just to take advantage. how many times do we see players assume something completely wrong where a simple insight, history , Archana or whatever would confirm or deny suspicions.
Step 1: You pickpocket someone and get their gold
Step 2: You use it to buy helpful armor, equipment, magic items. Anything that improves your combat abilities.
Sleight of hand may not be good in combat, but it helps prepare you for combat.
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HERE.If you anticipate fighting someone, steal their weapon or loosen their armor or shield using legerdemain. Maybe tie a rope around their ankles.
My rogue actually did that against an Arch Druid...I casted silence spell on a ball bearing and then attacked her doing the slight of hand roll with my off hand with that ball bearing in her pocket....totally ruined her short life.