"You can also only do one thing at a time out of combat"
Nah, this isn't really true.
Outside of combat, you can do anything reasonable including combining abilities, as long as it's reasonable. Talking to someone and also trying to pick their pocket? Sure, reasonable, people do that kind of thing all the time; they're known as pickpockets. Try to do too many things at once and the GM will sensibly apply disadvantage; too many more than that and the GM will forbid the action, but there's no "you can only do one thing at a time" rule outside of combat.
Of course, GMs will also sensibly take into account combat abilities when deciding what's reasonable.
Inside combat, however, there is such a rule to keep people from trying to game the system.
Things are not as regulated when out of combat and so there is far less mechanics or rules gouverning it in general, falling back on DM's judgement instead.
As Plaguescarred said, it's a matter of there not being rules, not of there being some. In combat there are rules about when you can do things and how they are timed (although it -still- comes down to GM judgement, so GMs can totally rule that some skill checks aren't actions or bonus actions at all, but instead free actions or part of your movement). But outside of combat, while the rules for how long some things (spells, for example) take still apply, there aren't any rules regarding simultenaity etc -- characters aren't robots, so it all comes down to GM rulings.
I've been doing some character creation and looking into the skills a bit more than I usually would.
For Sleight of Hand it says that, "Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The GM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket."
With the literal definition leaving "manual trickery" pretty open and vague, what would everyone think of using it in combat? Feign attacks to increase hit chance, swapping weapons mid attack, aiming for specific parts of armor/body to disable or impede, etc etc.
Everything I've read essentially sums SoH as a useless skill and exceptionally worthless in combat.
My rogue actually did that against an Arch Druid...I casted silence spell on a ball bearing and then attacked her doing the slight of hand roll with my off hand with that ball bearing in her pocket....totally ruined her short life.
Silence isn't cast on objects. It's cast on a location and is static.
That is not true the rules for actions do exist because rules for actions exist. the section on time shows keeping track of how long things take is important.(this is done via actions) Out of combat you don't need to measure time down to 6 seconds but it still exists. For reference https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/adventuring#Time. A dm doesn't have to "count actions" but knowing when a class can do two things at once is important.
Are you saying you let someone ritual cast while doing investigation? usually either the other characters have to wait or the dm asks others To do the investigation. Now a inquisitive rogue with ritual caster could "decipher clues" while ritual casting because they can do investigate clues as a bonus action.
traveling time is also a thing. a player that chooses a other activity is no longer alert to danger. Unless they are a ranger that is a specific exception to the action economy. so while traveling throught the city a fast hands rouge could pickpocket and still use passive perception.
Time is tracked in and out of combat indeed, more or less tightly often, so time consuming actions such as ritual casting are not done faster because you are not engaged in combat. In game, they still take 10+ minutes but out of character, it can sometimes be resolved in seconds though, especially when not time pressured.
Time is tracked in and out of combat indeed, more or less tightly often, so time consuming actions such as ritual casting are not done faster because you are not engaged in combat. In game, they still take 10+ minutes but out of character, it can sometimes be resolved in seconds though, especially when not time pressured.
So when you are out of combat and the DM says to you:
"You see the smuggler you are supposed to meet waiting at the end of the dock"
Then you say "I walk over and tell him the password."
Does the DM say - "well the dock is 100 foot long so do you want to walk 30 feet and yell the password, do you want to dash 60 feet and then wait to be close enough next turn? In any case you can't walk over to him and give him the password now because he is too far away"
That is what tracking actions, bonus actions and movement out of combat would look like.
Out of combat, movement does not look like that, a character moves more freely following a travel pace (PHB182). It's better to resort to turn order only when such minutia is necessary, such as when time pressured like i said.
Out of combat, movement does not look like that, a character moves more freely following a travel pace (PHB182). It's better to resort to turn order only when such minutia is necessary, such as when time pressured like i said.
So if I understand your argument; actions, bonus actions and reactions are all kept track of but movement is unlimited. So I am limited to one action at a time but I can make an unlimited amount of movement to combine with it?
That makes no sense, especially considering the dash action.
Its more like deciding your actions for long periods of time only stating the changes. The only time it's a problem is if you are trying to do two actions at the same time. However, some features allow bypassing that restriction.
So in the dock example. You say I'm walking to the end and keeping watch ( make a perception check or insight). Great no problem. A thief rogue could could pickpock a sleeping salor along the way and still "Watch for danger" but a regular rogue would need to stop "watching" to pickpocket. Sometimes it won't make a difference but sometimes it will.
Basically you only add as much complexity as necessary but only track the "extras"
Its more like deciding your actions for long periods of time only stating the changes. The only time it's a problem is if you are trying to do two actions at the same time. However, some features allow bypassing that restriction.
So in the dock example. You say I'm walking to the end and keeping watch ( make a perception check or insight). Great no problem. A thief rogue could could pickpock a sleeping salor along the way and still "Watch for danger" but a regular rogue would need to stop "watching" to pickpocket. Sometimes it won't make a difference but sometimes it will.
Basically you only add as much complexity as necessary but only track the "extras"
No I don't agree. It takes 4 turns to reach the end of the dock at a walking pace (it is 100 feet away), so I can not only search for danger, I can also pickpocket the guy sleeping and do 1 more thing in that time (assuming at the end of the dock my action is to talk to the smuggler). For the sake of arguement lets say the 4th thing I am going to do is sneak down the dock using some crates as concealment
Further if I want to do these things and follow a strict turn-by-turn I need to coordinate the movement with the action. So if the drunk is right next to me I need to pickpocket him the very first turn, but I could use search or hide on any turn in that 3 turn timeframe.
This is very clunky and it is far easier to just say I pickpocket the drunk and sneak up to the smuggler while creaping through the crates and looking out for dangers and give him the password when I get to him.
Moreover though, if you are not counting movement then this changes what I "can" do. So if it is a 100 foot dock I can do everything I said above (slight of hand, hide, search, talk). If it is a 30 foot dock I can't do any of that though unless I stop walking and wait.
Then there is at least one space of time(1 turn) where you are not paying attention and the dm would be allowed a surprise round if an enemy is watching for it.
This doesn't have to be clunky or hard. you just have to prioritize what you are doing. too many players try and do everything all at once.
By ignoring the action economy out of combat you potentially down play the benefits of several classes. (this is particularly interesting because many of the least favorite classes and subclasses have features that can subvert out of combat actions but dms or other players wont play allowing them to be used.
Also, by allowing people to pick one action the game becomes party focused. one person on watch, the another on insight. the another covering with a second check in case the first fails. ect. all while strolling down the dock, or city or whatever.
Any way this leaning off topic, so if you want a new thread I'd be wiling to participate. But basically in the end There is little difference between out of combat actions and in combat actions. the only difference is strict "time" and "turn order" in combat. out of combat you have longer "times" and "flexible turn orders"
Then there is at least one space of time(1 turn) where you are not paying attention and the dm would be allowed a surprise round if an enemy is watching for it.
Not true. While "search" only lasts one turn, passive perception is always on. I don't have to take an action to do that.
Moreover if I "search" for an enemy that means I find them or I don't. Unless they teleported in after I used the search action I would have found them when I used the action (assuming I passed the check) and can hide the next turn confident that they are not there.
By ignoring the action economy out of combat you potentially down play the benefits of several classes. (this is particularly interesting because many of the least favorite classes and subclasses have features that can subvert out of combat actions but dms or other players wont play allowing them to be used.
I would like some examples of the bolded.
For reference the "least favorite" classes are artificer and druid. The most played classes are Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian (in that order).
I don't know what the least played subclases are, but I do know the most played are in order: Champion, Fiend, Thief, Draconic Sorcerer, Hunter, Berzerker
Out of combat, movement does not look like that, a character moves more freely following a travel pace (PHB182). It's better to resort to turn order only when such minutia is necessary, such as when time pressured like i said.
So if I understand your argument; actions, bonus actions and reactions are all kept track of but movement is unlimited. So I am limited to one action at a time but I can make an unlimited amount of movement to combine with it?
That makes no sense, especially considering the dash action.
Out of combat, the use of actions and mouvement is more liberal and fluid, time more loosely tracked, you dont take turn in 6 seconds increment you just move and act in a reasonable way, so if you want to move or do any action you should do so without problem unless limited in time. Ritual still take 10+ minutes, so are other feature or spell with duration. If you have 5 seconds to act on something for exemple, you would not be able to do 3 actions and move 100 feet. If something occur after 5 minutes, a Ritual may not be completed in time etc.
Otherwise, out of combat we usually don't track actions and mouvement except in exceptional circumstance such as when time pressured. You don't have to use the Dash action when travelling, just use a fast travel pace instead of normal ones etc...
Well to cover the original question, which I do not rely on any special in or out of combat rules; "manual trickery" is a very broad term.
I can absolutely see Sleight of Hand beeing used for the following:
Wrapping a curtain around an enemy standing next to a window. Limiting sight
Folding part of a carpet around the legs of an enemy standing on it. Limiting movement or balance
Cutting the belt and pulling down the trousers. Limiting movement or balance
Throwing dirt in the face before attacking. Limiting sight
Stealing the puch of magical components. Limiting casting without implement
All of these (with the exception of stealing) are short term benifits that only lasts until the enemy uses a free action to wipe his face, pull up his pants or untangle his feet or head, but I would as a DM definately give some kind of bonus for the duration of the current turn such as advantage on attacks, disadvantage on athletics for the enemy, free disangage or similar bonuses.
I do not see this a stretch at all since this is the thieves main ability, comparable with spellcasting for the trickster, fancy footwork and/or rakish audacity for the Swashbuckler. And given that all rogues can use their bonus action to gain advantage, while giving up movement, this feels marginally better while also being more dificult to pull off and thus appropriate and very thematic.
Old topic, but I want to point out that the Telekinetic feat also removes somatic and verbal components from Mage Hand, so you can cast it without breaking stealth. No verbal component means no noise.
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"You can also only do one thing at a time out of combat"
Nah, this isn't really true.
Outside of combat, you can do anything reasonable including combining abilities, as long as it's reasonable. Talking to someone and also trying to pick their pocket? Sure, reasonable, people do that kind of thing all the time; they're known as pickpockets. Try to do too many things at once and the GM will sensibly apply disadvantage; too many more than that and the GM will forbid the action, but there's no "you can only do one thing at a time" rule outside of combat.
Of course, GMs will also sensibly take into account combat abilities when deciding what's reasonable.
Inside combat, however, there is such a rule to keep people from trying to game the system.
That doesn't match the mechanics at all as far as I can tell. Do you have any references to support that stance?
Things are not as regulated when out of combat and so there is far less mechanics or rules gouverning it in general, falling back on DM's judgement instead.
As Plaguescarred said, it's a matter of there not being rules, not of there being some. In combat there are rules about when you can do things and how they are timed (although it -still- comes down to GM judgement, so GMs can totally rule that some skill checks aren't actions or bonus actions at all, but instead free actions or part of your movement). But outside of combat, while the rules for how long some things (spells, for example) take still apply, there aren't any rules regarding simultenaity etc -- characters aren't robots, so it all comes down to GM rulings.
Silence isn't cast on objects. It's cast on a location and is static.
That is not true the rules for actions do exist because rules for actions exist. the section on time shows keeping track of how long things take is important.(this is done via actions) Out of combat you don't need to measure time down to 6 seconds but it still exists. For reference https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/adventuring#Time. A dm doesn't have to "count actions" but knowing when a class can do two things at once is important.
Are you saying you let someone ritual cast while doing investigation? usually either the other characters have to wait or the dm asks others To do the investigation. Now a inquisitive rogue with ritual caster could "decipher clues" while ritual casting because they can do investigate clues as a bonus action.
traveling time is also a thing. a player that chooses a other activity is no longer alert to danger. Unless they are a ranger that is a specific exception to the action economy. so while traveling throught the city a fast hands rouge could pickpocket and still use passive perception.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/adventuring#OtherActivities
Time is tracked in and out of combat indeed, more or less tightly often, so time consuming actions such as ritual casting are not done faster because you are not engaged in combat. In game, they still take 10+ minutes but out of character, it can sometimes be resolved in seconds though, especially when not time pressured.
So when you are out of combat and the DM says to you:
"You see the smuggler you are supposed to meet waiting at the end of the dock"
Then you say "I walk over and tell him the password."
Does the DM say - "well the dock is 100 foot long so do you want to walk 30 feet and yell the password, do you want to dash 60 feet and then wait to be close enough next turn? In any case you can't walk over to him and give him the password now because he is too far away"
That is what tracking actions, bonus actions and movement out of combat would look like.
Out of combat, movement does not look like that, a character moves more freely following a travel pace (PHB182). It's better to resort to turn order only when such minutia is necessary, such as when time pressured like i said.
So if I understand your argument; actions, bonus actions and reactions are all kept track of but movement is unlimited. So I am limited to one action at a time but I can make an unlimited amount of movement to combine with it?
That makes no sense, especially considering the dash action.
Its more like deciding your actions for long periods of time only stating the changes. The only time it's a problem is if you are trying to do two actions at the same time. However, some features allow bypassing that restriction.
So in the dock example. You say I'm walking to the end and keeping watch ( make a perception check or insight). Great no problem. A thief rogue could could pickpock a sleeping salor along the way and still "Watch for danger" but a regular rogue would need to stop "watching" to pickpocket. Sometimes it won't make a difference but sometimes it will.
Basically you only add as much complexity as necessary but only track the "extras"
No I don't agree. It takes 4 turns to reach the end of the dock at a walking pace (it is 100 feet away), so I can not only search for danger, I can also pickpocket the guy sleeping and do 1 more thing in that time (assuming at the end of the dock my action is to talk to the smuggler). For the sake of arguement lets say the 4th thing I am going to do is sneak down the dock using some crates as concealment
Further if I want to do these things and follow a strict turn-by-turn I need to coordinate the movement with the action. So if the drunk is right next to me I need to pickpocket him the very first turn, but I could use search or hide on any turn in that 3 turn timeframe.
This is very clunky and it is far easier to just say I pickpocket the drunk and sneak up to the smuggler while creaping through the crates and looking out for dangers and give him the password when I get to him.
Moreover though, if you are not counting movement then this changes what I "can" do. So if it is a 100 foot dock I can do everything I said above (slight of hand, hide, search, talk). If it is a 30 foot dock I can't do any of that though unless I stop walking and wait.
Then there is at least one space of time(1 turn) where you are not paying attention and the dm would be allowed a surprise round if an enemy is watching for it.
This doesn't have to be clunky or hard. you just have to prioritize what you are doing. too many players try and do everything all at once.
By ignoring the action economy out of combat you potentially down play the benefits of several classes. (this is particularly interesting because many of the least favorite classes and subclasses have features that can subvert out of combat actions but dms or other players wont play allowing them to be used.
Also, by allowing people to pick one action the game becomes party focused. one person on watch, the another on insight. the another covering with a second check in case the first fails. ect. all while strolling down the dock, or city or whatever.
Any way this leaning off topic, so if you want a new thread I'd be wiling to participate. But basically in the end There is little difference between out of combat actions and in combat actions. the only difference is strict "time" and "turn order" in combat. out of combat you have longer "times" and "flexible turn orders"
Not true. While "search" only lasts one turn, passive perception is always on. I don't have to take an action to do that.
Moreover if I "search" for an enemy that means I find them or I don't. Unless they teleported in after I used the search action I would have found them when I used the action (assuming I passed the check) and can hide the next turn confident that they are not there.
I would like some examples of the bolded.
For reference the "least favorite" classes are artificer and druid. The most played classes are Fighter, Rogue, and Barbarian (in that order).
I don't know what the least played subclases are, but I do know the most played are in order: Champion, Fiend, Thief, Draconic Sorcerer, Hunter, Berzerker
Out of combat, the use of actions and mouvement is more liberal and fluid, time more loosely tracked, you dont take turn in 6 seconds increment you just move and act in a reasonable way, so if you want to move or do any action you should do so without problem unless limited in time. Ritual still take 10+ minutes, so are other feature or spell with duration. If you have 5 seconds to act on something for exemple, you would not be able to do 3 actions and move 100 feet. If something occur after 5 minutes, a Ritual may not be completed in time etc.
Otherwise, out of combat we usually don't track actions and mouvement except in exceptional circumstance such as when time pressured. You don't have to use the Dash action when travelling, just use a fast travel pace instead of normal ones etc...
Well to cover the original question, which I do not rely on any special in or out of combat rules; "manual trickery" is a very broad term.
I can absolutely see Sleight of Hand beeing used for the following:
All of these (with the exception of stealing) are short term benifits that only lasts until the enemy uses a free action to wipe his face, pull up his pants or untangle his feet or head, but I would as a DM definately give some kind of bonus for the duration of the current turn such as advantage on attacks, disadvantage on athletics for the enemy, free disangage or similar bonuses.
I do not see this a stretch at all since this is the thieves main ability, comparable with spellcasting for the trickster, fancy footwork and/or rakish audacity for the Swashbuckler. And given that all rogues can use their bonus action to gain advantage, while giving up movement, this feels marginally better while also being more dificult to pull off and thus appropriate and very thematic.
Old topic, but I want to point out that the Telekinetic feat also removes somatic and verbal components from Mage Hand, so you can cast it without breaking stealth. No verbal component means no noise.