Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
How are Rangers getting reliable Advantage on ranged attacks at tier 1 and 2?
Please provide numbers since I am not familiar with a Ranger and won't see it otherwise.
They aren't. They don't need the advantage to beat warlocks in damage, warlocks need it to beat rogues and sorcerers. If you can get reliable advantage on a ranger it beats the warlock still. Rangers have archery fighting style which gives them a 10% greater chance to hit over a warlock and great weapon mastery feat works with heavy ranged weapons like long bows. So a ranger will have a greater chance to hit and do more damage on average per hit than a warlock with the same number of attacks in tier 1 and 2 of play.
Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
Honestly I probably never take armor of shadows you can just take lessons of the first one and take magic initiate wizard and take mage armor that way and enjoy 2 more cantrips. 1 casting of mage armor should be enough for the day.
I'd go so far as to say armor of shadows is a trap choice. It had niche use in 2014 with a gimmick abjurer build. But in 2024 where their ward only gets recharged with spells that lose slots it loses even that niche use. Even without magic initiate wizard 1 AC just will not be worth a invocation. And that is only until +1 studded leather enters the fray. like maybe if you are in a no magic item, no multi classing, where you plan on going melee full time the 1 AC will be worth it. But even then I doubt it, we are talking 1 in 20 attacks get effected. Across a campaign that is a lot sure, but what matters is across rests, and its rare that will matter enough to be worth a invocation. So maybe if using an alternate rest rule.
As warlocks don't get shields, but get light armor and the armor feats don't give shields unless you take light which you already have they really should have just baked armor or shadows in as a free ability, with invocations that expanded on it. Id of just made it a spin on unarmored defense. Something like while not wearing armor(maybe or a shield) you can ward yourself with eldritch defenses equal to your charisma bonus.
IMO there are lots of areas in the PH that shows signs they were rushed. Not rethinking a lot of these invocations, only light armor feat giving shield prof, conjure minor elementals and more.
Honestly I probably never take armor of shadows you can just take lesson's of the first one and take magic initiate wizard and take mage armor that way and enjoy 2 more cantrips. 1 casting of mage armor should be enough for the day.
It's a tradeoff. Mage Armor at will starting at 1st level or once per day plus spell slots and 2 Cantrips starting at 2nd level.
You could certainly start with Armor of Shadows (if you aren't starting with Pact of the Blade) then trade it out for Lessons of the First Ones at level 2 and then potentially consider trading it out if you get +1 Studded Leather, Elven Chain (max AC 16 or 17), or something similar. You may want to keep Mage Armor if you find Bracers of Defense (for 15+Dex modifier AC). Casting it at will versus once a day might be more favorable in groups where ambushes during long rests are more common or when encounters span more than 8 hours during a day. Maybe.
Honestly I probably never take armor of shadows you can just take lesson's of the first one and take magic initiate wizard and take mage armor that way and enjoy 2 more cantrips. 1 casting of mage armor should be enough for the day.
It's a tradeoff. Mage Armor at will starting at 1st level or once per day plus spell slots and 2 Cantrips starting at 2nd level.
You could certainly start with Armor of Shadows (if you aren't starting with Pact of the Blade) then trade it out for Lessons of the First Ones at level 2 and then potentially consider trading it out if you get +1 Studded Leather, Elven Chain (max AC 16 or 17), or something similar. You may want to keep Mage Armor if you find Bracers of Defense (for 15+Dex modifier AC). Casting it at will versus once a day might be more favorable in groups where ambushes during long rests are more common or when encounters span more than 8 hours during a day. Maybe.
I will say if you are going pact of the blade and don't want to multi-class I would recommend armor of shadows at level 1 before pact of the blade because you can get a charisma weapon attack with true strike at level 1 and have a greater need for survival. At level 2 you can swap it out for lessons and fiendish vigor and 1 invocation of your choice, probably eldritch mind and you don't really need to take pact of the blade on a pact of the blade warlock until around level 5 when you can get thirsting blade and true strike just isn't good enough anymore.
Also armor of shadows will remain relevant if the DM is using the gritty realism rest rules from the 2014 DMG as a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a few days means that being able to cast mage armor multiple times without a spells slot is definitely relevant.
Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2 Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else. For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
As far as single target damage spells that use slots the sorcerer is probably king with being able to give spells like witchbolt, scorching ray and bigby's hand advantage. Wizard I am unsure what spells could really add to its single target damage, and warlock has hex (never been great), summon spells which are probably the best your getting here, and maybe hunger of hadar, but that's only if you have a way to see into the darkness and keep the enemy there, but the "cheese grater" tactic is just better with other classes and other methods. But these are just my thoughts on the eldritch blast damage single target damage spell caster thing.
A big problem with hex is if you are going caster warlock you will likely have a good number of ritual spells, all of which will break your concentration on hex even if you were trying to be efficient and have other non-concentration spells to cast in combat while hex is up.
Sorry if this was a ramble.
Edit: should be noted I did not add crit damage to these calculations and if we did that would close the gap a little between sorcerer and warlock. Warlock and wizard add .275 per d 10, and sorcerer adds .536 per d10. And should be noted that draconic sorc beats warlock in cantrip damage in most of tier 2 of play (from 6 to 10 just not at 5).
The meager AC makes Pact of the Blade unplayable to me. The main stat is Charisma which means Dex is probably at a 14 (as is Con because you may need to concentrate on a spell or two.) This means the Pact of the Blade is going toe-to-toe with an enemy at a 14 AC. It is a shame that you have to burn a Feat to boost the armor proficiency, but even at that, you do not get proficiency in shields and you are boosting a Stat you may not really wish to boost. But why wouldn't someone training in Medium or Heavy armor train in a shield? Someone who wishes to train in hide armor will never want to equip a shield and be proficient with it?
What is laughable is that the Wizard can train in Light Armor with the Lightly Armored Feat and get proficiency in shields. You mean the Wizard is such a stud that he can learn proficiency in light armor and shields in contrast to the Pact of the Blade who is DESIGNED to fight melee and somehow only learned proficiency in light armor sans shields? Even if the Wizard does not take this Feat, with Mage Armor and a 14 Dex, his AC is a superior 15 not counting the Shield spell he can cast to get a 20 AC when things get ugly, and he is not designed to get in melee. Meanwhile, the Pact of the Blade is the mole in Whack a Mole and is getting pummeled. And to take a precious Invocation with Armor of Shadows to bump your AC to equal a Wizard is ridiculous.
There is a flaw in the design if you are designed to multi-class into something else to be viable, IMO. Whoever play tested the Pact of the Blade at WoTC, I want to hear how they made their character survivable because I must be missing something. And good luck holding Concentration with a 14 AC because you are going to be rolling it almost every attack against you (they do think we can hold onto Hex for 8 hours, right? Pfffft.)
It's a 1st level invocation. It isn't designed to do that much. You might do less damage than a rogue, with comparable AC, but at least you can mix up the damage type. And the neat part is you can have all three pacts, if you want. You can even swap them in and out as desired.
Meaning you might not want Pact of the Blade right away. You might want to go all-in on spellcasting and swap later on when it becomes more viable.
But if you are dead set on being a melee combatant, I suggest leaving STR at 9 or 11 and DEX at 13 so you can pick up Moderately Armored and Weapon Master. Pick a Two-Handed weapon and you won't care about a shield.
Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2 Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else. For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
I will just say levels 3-9 a wizard can use toll the dead for a d12 attack assuming at least one enemy is injured. Range is a bit short, and its resisted a lot but poison spray would be another d12 option. With a wizards ability to swap cantrips daily I kind of expect the to pack the biggest punch for the situation when given a chance to plan.
Not a massive jump but it bumps level 3 to 5.2, 10.4 at 5, at 10 he'd switch to firebolt to get it to 12.8 and the rest as you pointed out as there are no d12 evocation wizard spells for that nice level 10 ability.
Vs the warlocks 5.1-5.7 for 1.4 5.2 stacks up, and 10.4 looks decent vs 11.4m though at 8 the gap grows at 11 though the 17.2 is pretty dang close to a warlocks 18.9 and the wizard at this level will rarely need to dip into cantrips.
And yeah i didn't add n your crit edit. i'm lazy.
I generally hate multi classing but a 3 level dip into wizard evoker might work out for a eldritch blast focused warlock.
Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2 Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else. For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
I will just say levels 3-9 a wizard can use toll the dead for a d12 attack assuming at least one enemy is injured. Range is a bit short, and its resisted a lot but poison spray would be another d12 option. With a wizards ability to swap cantrips daily I kind of expect the to pack the biggest punch for the situation when given a chance to plan.
Not a massive jump but it bumps level 3 to 5.2, 10.4 at 5, at 10 he'd switch to firebolt to get it to 12.8 and the rest as you pointed out as there are no d12 evocation wizard spells for that nice level 10 ability.
Vs the warlocks 5.1-5.7 for 1.4 5.2 stacks up, and 10.4 looks decent vs 11.4m though at 8 the gap grows at 11 though the 17.2 is pretty dang close to a warlocks 18.9 and the wizard at this level will rarely need to dip into cantrips.
And yeah i didn't add n your crit edit. i'm lazy.
I generally hate multi classing but a 3 level dip into wizard evoker might work out for a eldritch blast focused warlock.
This is fair, but to also be fair to myself I was picking firebolt to match the lok's 120 foot range, but toll the dead is a mostly fair comparison due to 60 feet usually being enough range for most things.
the real curiosity for me is what can each class do with their spells that aren't cantrips. What role do they play in the party and the like. I know the warlock with tome is going to have more cantrips than the sorc and more ritual spells at most levels. vs the wizard more cantrips but not as much access to ritual spells. The warlock spell list is kind of pathetic hunger of hadar seems to be the one unique warlock spell for caster loks that I am not sure about its effectiveness.
Honestly I probably never take armor of shadows you can just take lesson's of the first one and take magic initiate wizard and take mage armor that way and enjoy 2 more cantrips. 1 casting of mage armor should be enough for the day.
It's a tradeoff. Mage Armor at will starting at 1st level or once per day plus spell slots and 2 Cantrips starting at 2nd level.
You could certainly start with Armor of Shadows (if you aren't starting with Pact of the Blade) then trade it out for Lessons of the First Ones at level 2 and then potentially consider trading it out if you get +1 Studded Leather, Elven Chain (max AC 16 or 17), or something similar. You may want to keep Mage Armor if you find Bracers of Defense (for 15+Dex modifier AC). Casting it at will versus once a day might be more favorable in groups where ambushes during long rests are more common or when encounters span more than 8 hours during a day. Maybe.
I will say if you are going pact of the blade and don't want to multi-class I would recommend armor of shadows at level 1 before pact of the blade because you can get a charisma weapon attack with true strike at level 1 and have a greater need for survival. At level 2 you can swap it out for lessons and fiendish vigor and 1 invocation of your choice, probably eldritch mind and you don't really need to take pact of the blade on a pact of the blade warlock until around level 5 when you can get thirsting blade and true strike just isn't good enough anymore.
Also armor of shadows will remain relevant if the DM is using the gritty realism rest rules from the 2014 DMG as a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a few days means that being able to cast mage armor multiple times without a spells slot is definitely relevant.
Not sure I agree with this. Studded leather is only 1 AC less than mage armor. As soon as you can get magic armor, out of the box, armor of shadows is obsolete. Even without magic armor, I think I'd prefer to just get studded leather armor and use my invocation for something else.
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Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2 Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else. For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
I will just say levels 3-9 a wizard can use toll the dead for a d12 attack assuming at least one enemy is injured. Range is a bit short, and its resisted a lot but poison spray would be another d12 option. With a wizards ability to swap cantrips daily I kind of expect the to pack the biggest punch for the situation when given a chance to plan.
Not a massive jump but it bumps level 3 to 5.2, 10.4 at 5, at 10 he'd switch to firebolt to get it to 12.8 and the rest as you pointed out as there are no d12 evocation wizard spells for that nice level 10 ability.
Vs the warlocks 5.1-5.7 for 1.4 5.2 stacks up, and 10.4 looks decent vs 11.4m though at 8 the gap grows at 11 though the 17.2 is pretty dang close to a warlocks 18.9 and the wizard at this level will rarely need to dip into cantrips.
And yeah i didn't add n your crit edit. i'm lazy.
I generally hate multi classing but a 3 level dip into wizard evoker might work out for a eldritch blast focused warlock.
This is fair, but to also be fair to myself I was picking firebolt to match the lok's 120 foot range, but toll the dead is a mostly fair comparison due to 60 feet usually being enough range for most things.
the real curiosity for me is what can each class do with their spells that aren't cantrips. What role do they play in the party and the like. I know the warlock with tome is going to have more cantrips than the sorc and more ritual spells at most levels. vs the wizard more cantrips but not as much access to ritual spells. The warlock spell list is kind of pathetic hunger of hadar seems to be the one unique warlock spell for caster loks that I am not sure about its effectiveness.
Yeah I feel when they were giving classes the whole arcane list or whole divine list and not many people liked it they didn't put the effort in to refine the feedback and add to class lists that really need help. It was no to every arcane spell so virtually no changes is clearly the only answer. Not only does the warlock have virtually no unique spells dozens of spells off of other lists fit them as well or better thematically than the classes that have them. I think they said the warlock list netted two new spells, it lost like 6 and gained 8.
I will say if you are going pact of the blade and don't want to multi-class I would recommend armor of shadows at level 1 before pact of the blade because you can get a charisma weapon attack with true strike at level 1 and have a greater need for survival. At level 2 you can swap it out for lessons and fiendish vigor and 1 invocation of your choice, probably eldritch mind and you don't really need to take pact of the blade on a pact of the blade warlock until around level 5 when you can get thirsting blade and true strike just isn't good enough anymore.
Also armor of shadows will remain relevant if the DM is using the gritty realism rest rules from the 2014 DMG as a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a few days means that being able to cast mage armor multiple times without a spells slot is definitely relevant.
Not sure I agree with this. Studded leather is only 1 AC less than mage armor. As soon as you can get magic armor, out of the box, armor of shadows is obsolete. Even without magic armor, I think I'd prefer to just get studded leather armor and use my invocation for something else.
Agreed, though your level 1 options are sparse as most now have a level pre-req of at least 2. Even if you don't stick with it long either pact of the tomes additional cantrips and couple rituals including standard find familiar cheese will get you further and until level 3 or so a sphinx of wonder will outfight you and probably the fighter so pact of the chain will be better, heck if more than 1 in 20 attacks go towards it instead of you it protected you more than 1 AC .(god I wish pact of the chains familiars scaled with warlock level, so they were not OP at level 1 but still useful in a fight at level 20)
Rangers are worse than warlocks, but most classes do better damage than EB and hex if built for it, including greatweapon bladelocks.
I think the key part of that statement is "...if built for it..." As much fun as it is to imagine some insane level 20 multiclass doing ridiculous damage, most players won't actually be using a build like that at a table.
And this is why I actually said tier 1 and 2 of play. When you take into account hit chance, subclass and spells that can add to single target ranged damage the warlock beats cleric, druids, wizards, bards and that's about it. A rangers (in tier 1 and 2), rogues, fighters, sorcerer's ranged damage is just more under most circumstances. (If you have a way to get reliable advantage on warlock it will over take, but that is probably going to require team work). When they talk about "building for it" they aren't talking about multi-classing or being super high level, they are talking about taking the archery fighting style and having good dex, or taking a subclass that adds to damage in anyway or for sorcerer taking a couple attack spells and cantrips.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2 Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else. For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
I will just say levels 3-9 a wizard can use toll the dead for a d12 attack assuming at least one enemy is injured. Range is a bit short, and its resisted a lot but poison spray would be another d12 option. With a wizards ability to swap cantrips daily I kind of expect the to pack the biggest punch for the situation when given a chance to plan.
Not a massive jump but it bumps level 3 to 5.2, 10.4 at 5, at 10 he'd switch to firebolt to get it to 12.8 and the rest as you pointed out as there are no d12 evocation wizard spells for that nice level 10 ability.
Vs the warlocks 5.1-5.7 for 1.4 5.2 stacks up, and 10.4 looks decent vs 11.4m though at 8 the gap grows at 11 though the 17.2 is pretty dang close to a warlocks 18.9 and the wizard at this level will rarely need to dip into cantrips.
And yeah i didn't add n your crit edit. i'm lazy.
I generally hate multi classing but a 3 level dip into wizard evoker might work out for a eldritch blast focused warlock.
This is fair, but to also be fair to myself I was picking firebolt to match the lok's 120 foot range, but toll the dead is a mostly fair comparison due to 60 feet usually being enough range for most things.
the real curiosity for me is what can each class do with their spells that aren't cantrips. What role do they play in the party and the like. I know the warlock with tome is going to have more cantrips than the sorc and more ritual spells at most levels. vs the wizard more cantrips but not as much access to ritual spells. The warlock spell list is kind of pathetic hunger of hadar seems to be the one unique warlock spell for caster loks that I am not sure about its effectiveness.
Yeah I feel when they were giving classes the whole arcane list or whole divine list and not many people liked it they didn't put the effort in to refine the feedback and add to class lists that really need help. It was no to every arcane spell so virtually no changes is clearly the only answer. Not only does the warlock have virtually no unique spells dozens of spells off of other lists fit them as well or better thematically than the classes that have them. I think they said the warlock list netted two new spells, it lost like 6 and gained 8.
I will say to be even more fair that toll the dead isn't an attack spell it is a spell that targets wisdom saving throw so it can't crit. In addition, something that targets a wisdom, dex or con saving throw will typically land less than an attack so while the average to hit for an attack cantrip like fire bolt is 60% the chance to do full damage with toll the dead is likely on average 50%. So its actually around 4.875 at 3-4, 9.75 at 5-19, 13.5 at 10, 18.375 at 11-16 and 23.25 at 17 up, and it can't actually crit making the gap a little bit wider than it appears to be. Though, of course, the wizard can take cantrips that target different saves and/or ac to increase his chance to hit if he knows what to look for.
In terms of level 1 invocation options if you are going pure power than Chain every time at level 1 and trade it out later if you don't want chain later, but if you are wanting to provide spell utility tome is fine to take. If want the "magic warrior" archetype that doesn't have a familiar or extra spells and you really want to be going into melee than blade will add to your damage by letting you use a more powerful weapon (assuming you have at least 13 strength) and shadows will add to your survival because +1 AC is not super meaningful in later levels but at level 1 and 2 can make a difference. But ya shadows and Blade are not the options to take if you are playing at level 1 and you are worried about what is best for your warlock. Blade is a tier 2 of play warlock damage choice.
I generally suggest having one attack and one save based one there are a lot of +0 wisdom save enemies out there and even at level 1 that hits pretty often. You don't always know but dude in armor go with the wisdom save type choices are sometimes easy. It is one of the issues with relying on eldritch blast, sure sometimes its a ooze or something with AC 8, but sometimes its AC 20 and your hit chance dropped to 40% and you are kind of stuck with it. A wizard who is less invested in one specific cantrip an freely swap to a save based attack. sure overall we might agree with a 60% accuracy as a default but being able to choose between the 2 freely will likely bump your to hit more than the loss of a crit.
I am curious where enemies will end up Ac and save wise in the new MM as after a certain level they became a bag of hit points you were assumed to hit. Will they scale AC and saves to keep a static hit chance across the levels compared to low levels.
I generally suggest having one attack and one save based one there are a lot of +0 wisdom save enemies out there and even at level 1 that hits pretty often. You don't always know but dude in armor go with the wisdom save type choices are sometimes easy. It is one of the issues with relying on eldritch blast, sure sometimes its a ooze or something with AC 8, but sometimes its AC 20 and your hit chance dropped to 40% and you are kind of stuck with it. A wizard who is less invested in one specific cantrip an freely swap to a save based attack. sure overall we might agree with a 60% accuracy as a default but being able to choose between the 2 freely will likely bump your to hit more than the loss of a crit.
I am curious where enemies will end up Ac and save wise in the new MM as after a certain level they became a bag of hit points you were assumed to hit. Will they scale AC and saves to keep a static hit chance across the levels compared to low levels.
Ya I did mention that wizards do have the advantage of their ability applying to all of their cantrips so they can take multiple and target what ever the weakest save/ac is on the enemy and makes their attacks a lot more reliable in general, but that comes with the trade off of having less utility cantrips available to use if you go that route. Thankfully, of course wizards have full casting spell slots so they have plenty of utility slots to use usually.
Well so far we know what some of the bigger monsters look like and ancient dragons and the like. They have an average of +9 on the wis save side of things and 21 to 22 AC of course with legendary resistance. I suspect we will see a rebalancing, but largely have it be pretty similar with average AC's and saves usually scaling a bit with CR. Early levels I don't suppose their will be many creatures with more than 15 AC without having some stark weakness in dex, con, or wis or they just won't move very fast or do a lot of damage. I am really excited for the 2025 Monster Manual because so far the previews have looked really good.
Why is Improved Pact Weapon not available? I thought if it wasn't rewritten in the 2024 PHB, it is still available. (backwards compatibility and all that) Is it the +1 bonus to attack and damage? I like it for the ranged option. Warlock is one of my go-tos for a spellbow build. (Casting spells through your bow)
Why is Improved Pact Weapon not available? I thought if it wasn't rewritten in the 2024 PHB, it is still available. (backwards compatibility and all that) Is it the +1 bonus to attack and damage? I like it for the ranged option. Warlock is one of my go-tos for a spellbow build. (Casting spells through your bow)
I believe that, since that was part of a legacy class, it is not available unless playing the legacy version. (could be wrong)
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Tech issue for old invocations is not allowing them to be added currently. That being said there is a question on the ones tied to the pacts as pre-reqs if they are still available due to them being fairly different now.
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They aren't. They don't need the advantage to beat warlocks in damage, warlocks need it to beat rogues and sorcerers. If you can get reliable advantage on a ranger it beats the warlock still. Rangers have archery fighting style which gives them a 10% greater chance to hit over a warlock and great weapon mastery feat works with heavy ranged weapons like long bows. So a ranger will have a greater chance to hit and do more damage on average per hit than a warlock with the same number of attacks in tier 1 and 2 of play.
Heck a evokers wizards cantrips are with a point or two of a warlock without hex going. Doing 1/2 damage on a miss really adds up. And if we are including sustained spells they both have better options than hex. And the evoker is holding full caster credentials. Warlocks are still my favorite class, but I'm just not going to focus on single target damage.
I'd go so far as to say armor of shadows is a trap choice. It had niche use in 2014 with a gimmick abjurer build. But in 2024 where their ward only gets recharged with spells that lose slots it loses even that niche use. Even without magic initiate wizard 1 AC just will not be worth a invocation. And that is only until +1 studded leather enters the fray. like maybe if you are in a no magic item, no multi classing, where you plan on going melee full time the 1 AC will be worth it. But even then I doubt it, we are talking 1 in 20 attacks get effected. Across a campaign that is a lot sure, but what matters is across rests, and its rare that will matter enough to be worth a invocation. So maybe if using an alternate rest rule.
As warlocks don't get shields, but get light armor and the armor feats don't give shields unless you take light which you already have they really should have just baked armor or shadows in as a free ability, with invocations that expanded on it. Id of just made it a spin on unarmored defense. Something like while not wearing armor(maybe or a shield) you can ward yourself with eldritch defenses equal to your charisma bonus.
IMO there are lots of areas in the PH that shows signs they were rushed. Not rethinking a lot of these invocations, only light armor feat giving shield prof, conjure minor elementals and more.
It's a tradeoff. Mage Armor at will starting at 1st level or once per day plus spell slots and 2 Cantrips starting at 2nd level.
You could certainly start with Armor of Shadows (if you aren't starting with Pact of the Blade) then trade it out for Lessons of the First Ones at level 2 and then potentially consider trading it out if you get +1 Studded Leather, Elven Chain (max AC 16 or 17), or something similar. You may want to keep Mage Armor if you find Bracers of Defense (for 15+Dex modifier AC). Casting it at will versus once a day might be more favorable in groups where ambushes during long rests are more common or when encounters span more than 8 hours during a day. Maybe.
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I will say if you are going pact of the blade and don't want to multi-class I would recommend armor of shadows at level 1 before pact of the blade because you can get a charisma weapon attack with true strike at level 1 and have a greater need for survival. At level 2 you can swap it out for lessons and fiendish vigor and 1 invocation of your choice, probably eldritch mind and you don't really need to take pact of the blade on a pact of the blade warlock until around level 5 when you can get thirsting blade and true strike just isn't good enough anymore.
Also armor of shadows will remain relevant if the DM is using the gritty realism rest rules from the 2014 DMG as a short rest being 8 hours and a long rest being a few days means that being able to cast mage armor multiple times without a spells slot is definitely relevant.
I will say I think if we are going to truly focus on single target damage that the warlock should probably use hunger of hadar or one of the summon spells at higher levels. Sorcerer pulls ahead in single target damage because the use of spell slots on spells like witchbolt and scorching ray while also having advantage on all of those attacks. In terms of pure cantrip damage warlock is still king.
At level 2-3 with a 60% chance to hit EB+AB = 5.1 dpr, at 4 it is 5.7, at 5-7 it is 11.4, at 8-10 it is 12.6 and at 11-16 it is 18.9 finally 17 up it is 25.2
Meanwhile, just using firebolt as a sorcerer (not dragonic) attacking with advantage gives a 84% chance to hit it is 4.62, 9.24, 13.86, and finally 18.48, with draconic it changes a little going to 12.6 at level 6, 13.44 at level 8 and then 18.06 at 11 finally 22.68 at level 17, though I believe getting seeking spell and or empower spell could increase this further due to increase chance to hit and increase average damage roll, but again the main advantage of sorcerer is the other leveled attack spells also benefit from innate sorcery and those will do a lot more damage than just a cantrip and be more efficient on sorcerer than anyone else.
For evocation wizards a firebolt will deal 5.5 average on a hit with 60% chance to hit results in 4.4 at level 3, 8.8 at level 5, 12.8 at level 10, 17.2 at 11, and 21.6 at level 17.
As far as single target damage spells that use slots the sorcerer is probably king with being able to give spells like witchbolt, scorching ray and bigby's hand advantage. Wizard I am unsure what spells could really add to its single target damage, and warlock has hex (never been great), summon spells which are probably the best your getting here, and maybe hunger of hadar, but that's only if you have a way to see into the darkness and keep the enemy there, but the "cheese grater" tactic is just better with other classes and other methods. But these are just my thoughts on the eldritch blast damage single target damage spell caster thing.
A big problem with hex is if you are going caster warlock you will likely have a good number of ritual spells, all of which will break your concentration on hex even if you were trying to be efficient and have other non-concentration spells to cast in combat while hex is up.
Sorry if this was a ramble.
Edit: should be noted I did not add crit damage to these calculations and if we did that would close the gap a little between sorcerer and warlock. Warlock and wizard add .275 per d 10, and sorcerer adds .536 per d10. And should be noted that draconic sorc beats warlock in cantrip damage in most of tier 2 of play (from 6 to 10 just not at 5).
It's a 1st level invocation. It isn't designed to do that much. You might do less damage than a rogue, with comparable AC, but at least you can mix up the damage type. And the neat part is you can have all three pacts, if you want. You can even swap them in and out as desired.
Meaning you might not want Pact of the Blade right away. You might want to go all-in on spellcasting and swap later on when it becomes more viable.
But if you are dead set on being a melee combatant, I suggest leaving STR at 9 or 11 and DEX at 13 so you can pick up Moderately Armored and Weapon Master. Pick a Two-Handed weapon and you won't care about a shield.
I will just say levels 3-9 a wizard can use toll the dead for a d12 attack assuming at least one enemy is injured. Range is a bit short, and its resisted a lot but poison spray would be another d12 option. With a wizards ability to swap cantrips daily I kind of expect the to pack the biggest punch for the situation when given a chance to plan.
Not a massive jump but it bumps level 3 to 5.2, 10.4 at 5, at 10 he'd switch to firebolt to get it to 12.8 and the rest as you pointed out as there are no d12 evocation wizard spells for that nice level 10 ability.
Vs the warlocks 5.1-5.7 for 1.4 5.2 stacks up, and 10.4 looks decent vs 11.4m though at 8 the gap grows at 11 though the 17.2 is pretty dang close to a warlocks 18.9 and the wizard at this level will rarely need to dip into cantrips.
And yeah i didn't add n your crit edit. i'm lazy.
I generally hate multi classing but a 3 level dip into wizard evoker might work out for a eldritch blast focused warlock.
This is fair, but to also be fair to myself I was picking firebolt to match the lok's 120 foot range, but toll the dead is a mostly fair comparison due to 60 feet usually being enough range for most things.
the real curiosity for me is what can each class do with their spells that aren't cantrips. What role do they play in the party and the like. I know the warlock with tome is going to have more cantrips than the sorc and more ritual spells at most levels. vs the wizard more cantrips but not as much access to ritual spells. The warlock spell list is kind of pathetic hunger of hadar seems to be the one unique warlock spell for caster loks that I am not sure about its effectiveness.
Not sure I agree with this. Studded leather is only 1 AC less than mage armor. As soon as you can get magic armor, out of the box, armor of shadows is obsolete. Even without magic armor, I think I'd prefer to just get studded leather armor and use my invocation for something else.
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Yeah I feel when they were giving classes the whole arcane list or whole divine list and not many people liked it they didn't put the effort in to refine the feedback and add to class lists that really need help. It was no to every arcane spell so virtually no changes is clearly the only answer. Not only does the warlock have virtually no unique spells dozens of spells off of other lists fit them as well or better thematically than the classes that have them. I think they said the warlock list netted two new spells, it lost like 6 and gained 8.
Agreed, though your level 1 options are sparse as most now have a level pre-req of at least 2. Even if you don't stick with it long either pact of the tomes additional cantrips and couple rituals including standard find familiar cheese will get you further and until level 3 or so a sphinx of wonder will outfight you and probably the fighter so pact of the chain will be better, heck if more than 1 in 20 attacks go towards it instead of you it protected you more than 1 AC .(god I wish pact of the chains familiars scaled with warlock level, so they were not OP at level 1 but still useful in a fight at level 20)
I will say to be even more fair that toll the dead isn't an attack spell it is a spell that targets wisdom saving throw so it can't crit. In addition, something that targets a wisdom, dex or con saving throw will typically land less than an attack so while the average to hit for an attack cantrip like fire bolt is 60% the chance to do full damage with toll the dead is likely on average 50%. So its actually around 4.875 at 3-4, 9.75 at 5-19, 13.5 at 10, 18.375 at 11-16 and 23.25 at 17 up, and it can't actually crit making the gap a little bit wider than it appears to be. Though, of course, the wizard can take cantrips that target different saves and/or ac to increase his chance to hit if he knows what to look for.
In terms of level 1 invocation options if you are going pure power than Chain every time at level 1 and trade it out later if you don't want chain later, but if you are wanting to provide spell utility tome is fine to take. If want the "magic warrior" archetype that doesn't have a familiar or extra spells and you really want to be going into melee than blade will add to your damage by letting you use a more powerful weapon (assuming you have at least 13 strength) and shadows will add to your survival because +1 AC is not super meaningful in later levels but at level 1 and 2 can make a difference. But ya shadows and Blade are not the options to take if you are playing at level 1 and you are worried about what is best for your warlock. Blade is a tier 2 of play warlock damage choice.
I generally suggest having one attack and one save based one there are a lot of +0 wisdom save enemies out there and even at level 1 that hits pretty often. You don't always know but dude in armor go with the wisdom save type choices are sometimes easy. It is one of the issues with relying on eldritch blast, sure sometimes its a ooze or something with AC 8, but sometimes its AC 20 and your hit chance dropped to 40% and you are kind of stuck with it. A wizard who is less invested in one specific cantrip an freely swap to a save based attack. sure overall we might agree with a 60% accuracy as a default but being able to choose between the 2 freely will likely bump your to hit more than the loss of a crit.
I am curious where enemies will end up Ac and save wise in the new MM as after a certain level they became a bag of hit points you were assumed to hit. Will they scale AC and saves to keep a static hit chance across the levels compared to low levels.
Ya I did mention that wizards do have the advantage of their ability applying to all of their cantrips so they can take multiple and target what ever the weakest save/ac is on the enemy and makes their attacks a lot more reliable in general, but that comes with the trade off of having less utility cantrips available to use if you go that route. Thankfully, of course wizards have full casting spell slots so they have plenty of utility slots to use usually.
Well so far we know what some of the bigger monsters look like and ancient dragons and the like. They have an average of +9 on the wis save side of things and 21 to 22 AC of course with legendary resistance. I suspect we will see a rebalancing, but largely have it be pretty similar with average AC's and saves usually scaling a bit with CR. Early levels I don't suppose their will be many creatures with more than 15 AC without having some stark weakness in dex, con, or wis or they just won't move very fast or do a lot of damage. I am really excited for the 2025 Monster Manual because so far the previews have looked really good.
Why is Improved Pact Weapon not available? I thought if it wasn't rewritten in the 2024 PHB, it is still available. (backwards compatibility and all that) Is it the +1 bonus to attack and damage? I like it for the ranged option. Warlock is one of my go-tos for a spellbow build. (Casting spells through your bow)
I believe that, since that was part of a legacy class, it is not available unless playing the legacy version. (could be wrong)
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Tech issue for old invocations is not allowing them to be added currently. That being said there is a question on the ones tied to the pacts as pre-reqs if they are still available due to them being fairly different now.