Can I cast something like Fireball, a level 5 spell, and replace the damage with a spell like Eldrich Blast, a cantrip? Would it count as up-casting the cantrip? I don't believe Chromatic Orb would give me access to all damage types so I was going to be choosy about my cantrips.
Based on the text for the particular section of the Awakened Spellbook feature that talks about this; no, you could not replace the damage of Fireball with the force damage that Eldritch Blast does. EB is a cantrip incapable of being up-casted to a 5th level spell slot. The key component is at the end of this feature which states:
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell's formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
Now whether this requires you copying the damage type from a spell of a given spell slot as the one you expended (so for this example needing to use the damage of a 5th level spell) or a spell that can be upcasted to a 5th level, I'm not sure. I would be more inclined to lean towards the former in that:
If you were casting a spell at 5th level and wanted to change its damage type, you would need a 5th level spell in your spellbook to take the damage type from to make the needed swap for this feature.
But in short, based on RAW, the damage type of cantrips could not be utilized to replace the damage type of anything other than a cantrip. As for chromatic orb, that I'm not certain of given that it has no fixed damage type and is instead a random damage type based on your roll.
Yeah that is what I thought too... so I guess I'll build around my damage spells all being Level 1s.
Thanks!
Edit: Put together my list...
1: Magic Missile, Force
- Level 1 Wizard
2: Guiding Bolt, Radiant
- Magic Initiate Feat at 4, Cleric
3: Thunderwave, Thunder
- Level 1 Wizard
4: Tasha's Caustic Brew, Acid
- Level 1 Wizard
5: Dissonant Whispers, Psychic
- Magic Initiate Lvl 8, Bard
6: Arms of Hadar, Necrotix
- Magic Initiate lvl 12, Warlock
7: Witchbolt, Lightning
- Level 1 Wizard
8: Burning Hands, Fire
- Magic Initiate Level 16, Sorcerer
9: Ice Knife, Cold
- Magic Initiate Level 20, Druid
I will take Silvery Barbs as my other level 1 Wizard spell and then I gotta check with the DM to see if Earth Tremor is "Magical Bludgeoning" or just Bludgeoning damage. If it is Magical that will be my 6th 1st level and if not then I'll take Identify probably.
not everything has to be level one, taking all the magic adept is just a waste and most dm's probably wouldnt let you without a story reason but you could easily get all type of damage by 3rd level spells i think only one your missing is maybe radiant as a wizard
The feature says "another type that appears in your spellbook" so i would rule even chromatic orb can be drawn from, since those damage types in fact appear in the text of the spell in your spell book (also even casting it normally you choose the damage type) you just can't do all types at once.
The feature says "another type that appears in your spellbook" so i would rule even chromatic orb can be drawn from, since those damage types in fact appear in the text of the spell in your spell book (also even casting it normally you choose the damage type) you just can't do all types at once.
This is ripe for cheesing XD
But yeah, I agree with that, and all the other comments. Personally, I'd say just stick to having it as spells at that level, not upcasted ones.
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ADHD Aussie (17M) with too many ideas and not enough time! Always up to chat!
Disclaimer: I'm not an optimizer. If I say something that's not fine-tuned to perfection, that's on purpose. D&D isn't an online tournament, it's a TTRPG where your imagination and the DM's compliance are the limits. I don't do "metas". If I can have fun with my thematically cool and still viable (both in and out of combat) concept, I'm happy. I'm not going for optimal stats; I'm going for optimal fun.
Tashas specifically states that the 2 spells must be the same level. Nothing about spell slot level. So you can only change a level 3 spells damage type with the damage type of another level 3 spell.
What you and others are saying about getting all damage types doesnt work, the rules word it as such to avoid this, as metagamers would just take magic missile at level 1 and change every damage type to force, which very few creatures are resistant or immune to.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Tashas specifically states that the 2 spells must be the same level. Nothing about spell slot level. So you can only change a level 3 spells damage type with the damage type of another level 3 spell.
What you and others are saying about getting all damage types doesnt work, the rules word it as such to avoid this, as metagamers would just take magic missile at level 1 and change every damage type to force, which very few creatures are resistant or immune to.
Yeah, this sounds closer to what AL was telling me but without the spell slot thing because it says "it must be of the of the same level as the spell slot expended" indicating it is based on spell slots not raw levels. However they said no to using Chromotic Orb for it and the Magic Initiate Feats were cool. I am RPing a Vault of Sages scribe with the Cloistered Librarian background so I ICly have access to the world's largest spell repository and the spell additions through Feats is so slow that it makes sense.
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
RED = Referring to the spell you are casting. BLUE = Referring to the spell in the book that has the damage type you want.
So the feature only works for spells that you cast using a spell slot. This means it won't work if using the "free cast" spells from feats like Magic Initiate or when casting from magic items like a Staff of Power because they don't use spell slots. When casting a spell using a higher level spell slot the spell you are casting will become the same level as the spell slot. When changing the damage type you must choose a different spell in your spellbook of the same level as the spell being cast - the same level as the spell slot you are expending. However, for the purposes of this feature you must note "spell level" and "spell slot level" mean different things.
There is a misconception in this thread by some that just because Magic Missile can be cast at higher levels it can be considered as those higher levels. This is incorrect. All spells of 1st to 8th level can be cast at a higher level - whether it has a stronger effect when doing so depends on the spell but it nevertheless becomes the higher level if you cast with a higher spell slot level. So even though Mage Armor is a 1st level spell and has no stronger effects when cast at a higher level, if you used a 4th level spell slot it will be a 4th level spell for that casting. This is important to note in cases of things like Counterspell or Dispel Magic. When not being cast at higher level using spell slots or any feature that lets you cast it at higher level - it is otherwise a 1st level spell.
The spell in your book, must have a base level equal to the spell slot level of the spell slot you are using to cast.
Let's try examples.
You have Chromatic Orb in your spell book and you also have Ice Knife prepared. These are both 1st Level spells.
If you cast Ice Knife, which normally does Cold damage, as a 1st level spell, you can choose Chromatic Orb in your book and select any damage type Chromatic Orb lists (acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder) and the casting spell, Ice Knife, will now deal only that chosen damage type: so Acid Knife, Fire Knife, etc).
However, if you cast Ice Knife using a 2nd level spell slot -- you can no longer select Chromatic Orb for choosing a damage type, because it is a 1st level spell and you are now casting with a spell slot of a level different than 1st. You could choose a spell like Dragon's Breath, instead, if you had that spell in your spell book, which is a 2nd level spell which lists acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage types, so you could still make a Poison Knife, for example.
=
And, to reiterate, this feature has zero interaction with Magic Initiate. To use the feature the casting spell must use a spell slot and the damage spell must be in your spellbook. The Magic Initiate spell is not cast with a spell slot and is not added to your spellbook.
Also, you can't take Magic Initiate more than once.
There is not much "cheese" with this feature. It is very specifically worded to avoid such. There are some tricks, like multiclassing with a tempest cleric and changing the spell damage to thunder or lightning so you can use the Destructive Wrath feature but your uses will be limited and while a great and useful option it isn't enough to be considered cheesy (and debatable on whether the multiclass is worth it).
=
And just curious about "and the spell additions through Feats is so slow that it makes sense." -- are you forgetting that you get 2 spells added for free to your spellbook every level up?
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
RED = Referring to the spell you are casting. BLUE = Referring to the spell in the book that has the damage type you want.
So the feature only works for spells that you cast using a spell slot. This means it won't work if using the "free cast" spells from feats like Magic Initiate or when casting from magic items like a Staff of Power because they don't use spell slots. When casting a spell using a higher level spell slot the spell you are casting will become the same level as the spell slot. When changing the damage type you must choose a different spell in your spellbook of the same level as the spell being cast - the same level as the spell slot you are expending. However, for the purposes of this feature you must note "spell level" and "spell slot level" mean different things.
There is a misconception in this thread by some that just because Magic Missile can be cast at higher levels it can be considered as those higher levels. This is incorrect. All spells of 1st to 8th level can be cast at a higher level - whether it has a stronger effect when doing so depends on the spell but it nevertheless becomes the higher level if you cast with a higher spell slot level. So even though Mage Armor is a 1st level spell and has no stronger effects when cast at a higher level, if you used a 4th level spell slot it will be a 4th level spell for that casting. This is important to note in cases of things like Counterspell or Dispel Magic. When not being cast at higher level using spell slots or any feature that lets you cast it at higher level - it is otherwise a 1st level spell.
The spell in your book, must have a base level equal to the spell slot level of the spell slot you are using to cast.
Let's try examples.
You have Chromatic Orb in your spell book and you also have Ice Knife prepared. These are both 1st Level spells.
If you cast Ice Knife, which normally does Cold damage, as a 1st level spell, you can choose Chromatic Orb in your book and select any damage type Chromatic Orb lists (acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder) and the casting spell, Ice Knife, will now deal only that chosen damage type: so Acid Knife, Fire Knife, etc).
However, if you cast Ice Knife using a 2nd level spell slot -- you can no longer select Chromatic Orb for choosing a damage type, because it is a 1st level spell and you are now casting with a spell slot of a level different than 1st. You could choose a spell like Dragon's Breath, instead, if you had that spell in your spell book, which is a 2nd level spell which lists acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage types, so you could still make a Poison Knife, for example.
=
And, to reiterate, this feature has zero interaction with Magic Initiate. To use the feature the casting spell must use a spell slot and the damage spell must be in your spellbook. The Magic Initiate spell is not cast with a spell slot and is not added to your spellbook.
Also, you can't take Magic Initiate more than once.
There is not much "cheese" with this feature. It is very specifically worded to avoid such. There are some tricks, like multiclassing with a tempest cleric and changing the spell damage to thunder or lightning so you can use the Destructive Wrath feature but your uses will be limited and while a great and useful option it isn't enough to be considered cheesy (and debatable on whether the multiclass is worth it).
=
And just curious about "and the spell additions through Feats is so slow that it makes sense." -- are you forgetting that you get 2 spells added for free to your spellbook every level up?
I like how you break this down a lot but I don't see why I can't use an up-casted slot of a level 1 since they can be up cast to each level? In other words the ability just tells the player they cannot use a level one slot for a level six spell because they are replacing the damage with that of the level one spell.
The issue I have with Order of Scribes is there is a lot of interpretation when it comes to this class feature. Like Adventure League wouldn't let me use Chromatic Orb, but will let me use all these level 1 spells as up casted. I do believe I should be able to do both use Chromatic Orb up-casted because you choose the damage type and then cast Chromatic Orb just like you choose the spell slot and then cast Chromatic Orb. Both considerations are done prior to casting and should be usable for the casting of the spell being replaced.
That being said I do like how you broke it down and I feel like they should clarify this better in later versions if the subclass is maintained. I think it is a cool class myself, but this class ability gets twisted into more of a hindrance than anything useful and I don't like that.
I know I'm late for this disscussion, and this comment doesn't add much but I fell down a rabit hole starting with this thread. After a bit of looking around:
To date there is yet no mention of this feat in the Sage Compendium.
So far the explanation that most sense made to me is Cyb3rM1nd's.
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Can I cast something like Fireball, a level 5 spell, and replace the damage with a spell like Eldrich Blast, a cantrip? Would it count as up-casting the cantrip? I don't believe Chromatic Orb would give me access to all damage types so I was going to be choosy about my cantrips.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Based on the text for the particular section of the Awakened Spellbook feature that talks about this; no, you could not replace the damage of Fireball with the force damage that Eldritch Blast does. EB is a cantrip incapable of being up-casted to a 5th level spell slot. The key component is at the end of this feature which states:
When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell's formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend.
Now whether this requires you copying the damage type from a spell of a given spell slot as the one you expended (so for this example needing to use the damage of a 5th level spell) or a spell that can be upcasted to a 5th level, I'm not sure. I would be more inclined to lean towards the former in that:
If you were casting a spell at 5th level and wanted to change its damage type, you would need a 5th level spell in your spellbook to take the damage type from to make the needed swap for this feature.
But in short, based on RAW, the damage type of cantrips could not be utilized to replace the damage type of anything other than a cantrip. As for chromatic orb, that I'm not certain of given that it has no fixed damage type and is instead a random damage type based on your roll.
Yeah that is what I thought too... so I guess I'll build around my damage spells all being Level 1s.
Thanks!
Edit: Put together my list...
1: Magic Missile, Force
- Level 1 Wizard
2: Guiding Bolt, Radiant
- Magic Initiate Feat at 4, Cleric
3: Thunderwave, Thunder
- Level 1 Wizard
4: Tasha's Caustic Brew, Acid
- Level 1 Wizard
5: Dissonant Whispers, Psychic
- Magic Initiate Lvl 8, Bard
6: Arms of Hadar, Necrotix
- Magic Initiate lvl 12, Warlock
7: Witchbolt, Lightning
- Level 1 Wizard
8: Burning Hands, Fire
- Magic Initiate Level 16, Sorcerer
9: Ice Knife, Cold
- Magic Initiate Level 20, Druid
I will take Silvery Barbs as my other level 1 Wizard spell and then I gotta check with the DM to see if Earth Tremor is "Magical Bludgeoning" or just Bludgeoning damage. If it is Magical that will be my 6th 1st level and if not then I'll take Identify probably.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
not everything has to be level one, taking all the magic adept is just a waste and most dm's probably wouldnt let you without a story reason but you could easily get all type of damage by 3rd level spells i think only one your missing is maybe radiant as a wizard
The feature says "another type that appears in your spellbook" so i would rule even chromatic orb can be drawn from, since those damage types in fact appear in the text of the spell in your spell book (also even casting it normally you choose the damage type) you just can't do all types at once.
This is ripe for cheesing XD
But yeah, I agree with that, and all the other comments. Personally, I'd say just stick to having it as spells at that level, not upcasted ones.
ADHD Aussie (17M) with too many ideas and not enough time! Always up to chat!
Disclaimer: I'm not an optimizer. If I say something that's not fine-tuned to perfection, that's on purpose. D&D isn't an online tournament, it's a TTRPG where your imagination and the DM's compliance are the limits. I don't do "metas". If I can have fun with my thematically cool and still viable (both in and out of combat) concept, I'm happy. I'm not going for optimal stats; I'm going for optimal fun.
Tashas specifically states that the 2 spells must be the same level. Nothing about spell slot level. So you can only change a level 3 spells damage type with the damage type of another level 3 spell.
What you and others are saying about getting all damage types doesnt work, the rules word it as such to avoid this, as metagamers would just take magic missile at level 1 and change every damage type to force, which very few creatures are resistant or immune to.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
Yeah, this sounds closer to what AL was telling me but without the spell slot thing because it says "it must be of the of the same level as the spell slot expended" indicating it is based on spell slots not raw levels. However they said no to using Chromotic Orb for it and the Magic Initiate Feats were cool. I am RPing a Vault of Sages scribe with the Cloistered Librarian background so I ICly have access to the world's largest spell repository and the spell additions through Feats is so slow that it makes sense.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
RED = Referring to the spell you are casting.
BLUE = Referring to the spell in the book that has the damage type you want.
So the feature only works for spells that you cast using a spell slot. This means it won't work if using the "free cast" spells from feats like Magic Initiate or when casting from magic items like a Staff of Power because they don't use spell slots. When casting a spell using a higher level spell slot the spell you are casting will become the same level as the spell slot. When changing the damage type you must choose a different spell in your spellbook of the same level as the spell being cast - the same level as the spell slot you are expending. However, for the purposes of this feature you must note "spell level" and "spell slot level" mean different things.
There is a misconception in this thread by some that just because Magic Missile can be cast at higher levels it can be considered as those higher levels. This is incorrect. All spells of 1st to 8th level can be cast at a higher level - whether it has a stronger effect when doing so depends on the spell but it nevertheless becomes the higher level if you cast with a higher spell slot level. So even though Mage Armor is a 1st level spell and has no stronger effects when cast at a higher level, if you used a 4th level spell slot it will be a 4th level spell for that casting. This is important to note in cases of things like Counterspell or Dispel Magic. When not being cast at higher level using spell slots or any feature that lets you cast it at higher level - it is otherwise a 1st level spell.
The spell in your book, must have a base level equal to the spell slot level of the spell slot you are using to cast.
Let's try examples.
You have Chromatic Orb in your spell book and you also have Ice Knife prepared. These are both 1st Level spells.
If you cast Ice Knife, which normally does Cold damage, as a 1st level spell, you can choose Chromatic Orb in your book and select any damage type Chromatic Orb lists (acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder) and the casting spell, Ice Knife, will now deal only that chosen damage type: so Acid Knife, Fire Knife, etc).
However, if you cast Ice Knife using a 2nd level spell slot -- you can no longer select Chromatic Orb for choosing a damage type, because it is a 1st level spell and you are now casting with a spell slot of a level different than 1st. You could choose a spell like Dragon's Breath, instead, if you had that spell in your spell book, which is a 2nd level spell which lists acid, cold, fire, lightning, and poison damage types, so you could still make a Poison Knife, for example.
=
And, to reiterate, this feature has zero interaction with Magic Initiate. To use the feature the casting spell must use a spell slot and the damage spell must be in your spellbook. The Magic Initiate spell is not cast with a spell slot and is not added to your spellbook.
Also, you can't take Magic Initiate more than once.
There is not much "cheese" with this feature. It is very specifically worded to avoid such. There are some tricks, like multiclassing with a tempest cleric and changing the spell damage to thunder or lightning so you can use the Destructive Wrath feature but your uses will be limited and while a great and useful option it isn't enough to be considered cheesy (and debatable on whether the multiclass is worth it).
=
And just curious about "and the spell additions through Feats is so slow that it makes sense." -- are you forgetting that you get 2 spells added for free to your spellbook every level up?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I like how you break this down a lot but I don't see why I can't use an up-casted slot of a level 1 since they can be up cast to each level? In other words the ability just tells the player they cannot use a level one slot for a level six spell because they are replacing the damage with that of the level one spell.
The issue I have with Order of Scribes is there is a lot of interpretation when it comes to this class feature. Like Adventure League wouldn't let me use Chromatic Orb, but will let me use all these level 1 spells as up casted. I do believe I should be able to do both use Chromatic Orb up-casted because you choose the damage type and then cast Chromatic Orb just like you choose the spell slot and then cast Chromatic Orb. Both considerations are done prior to casting and should be usable for the casting of the spell being replaced.
That being said I do like how you broke it down and I feel like they should clarify this better in later versions if the subclass is maintained. I think it is a cool class myself, but this class ability gets twisted into more of a hindrance than anything useful and I don't like that.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
I know I'm late for this disscussion, and this comment doesn't add much but I fell down a rabit hole starting with this thread. After a bit of looking around: