My GM and I were discussing last night about an upcoming PC I’ll be playing in his campaign. It will be a 16th-level Illusionist.
We agree that Illusory Dragon is crazy powerful and unbalanced. As written, the wizard could route the entire army of Mordor while he’s on his morning tea break. All he needs is a hill.
At the same time, Weird sucks. That’s pretty much universally agreed upon by gamers around the world.
So, making Illusory Dragon banned (which we agree on), there are no high-level spells in his school for my 16th-level Illusionist to look forward to.
I’m calling for ideas for concepts for such high-level spells. I’ve got two, but I don’t know if they work.
The first one makes every spell cast in the next minute a Subtle spell.
The second one allows for the caster to concentrate on two illusion or enchantment spells simultaneously. Of course, each spell must be an illusion or enchantment and this spell does not protect against concentration being disrupted.
Alr you just gotta hear me out- I know you said weird sucked
But they improved it in the new rules. I recommend a read further. If you still don't want it than understandable, but may I recommend a spell that forges a domain of your own? Something to trap your enemies in like a dream world but more advanced than maze or demiplane?
Alr you just gotta hear me out- I know you said weird sucked
But they improved it in the new rules. I recommend a read further. If you still don't want it than understandable, but may I recommend a spell that forges a domain of your own? Something to trap your enemies in like a dream world but more advanced than maze or demiplane?
Compare Weird to Meteor Swarm.
Meteor Swarm has 20ft larger diameter (150% larger), does 40d6 fire and bludgeoning as opposed to 10d10 damage psychic. (Meteor Swarm does a larger minimum, a larger average, and a larger maximum). Yes, fire resistance is more common, but immunity to psychic is more common. Yes, there is a fear ribbon, but immunity to fear is a thing and it is save every round, so it won’t last long - unlikely to last more than three rounds. And it is a concentration spell.
Did they improve it? Certainly. Does it still suck? Definitely.
Sadly a lot of spell schools have this problem where at certain levels they have very sparse coverage.
I'll say this, I think you over state illusory dragon. Take Dragons breath its a 2nd level spell it does 3d6 to a smaller cone. 6 levels later you go up 4d6 to a big cone with a fear effect. Sure its attached to an illusion as opposed to your familiar or something. But 7d6 on demand to a cone is not that impressive to me for a 8th level spell. Its less than fireball. If anything I'd put the spell on the weak side.Can it "route an army" i guess a really small one that 10 cones would wipe out. But, how often is low level peons en masse the threat you are facing. 7d6 a round even as a bonus action just does not feel like its worth it vs level 15+ threats.
But maybe re flavor Maze and power word stun into illusions. In the case of maze maybe give them extra saves, with advantage, or break the spell if they take damage as they are not transported into a maze their minds just think they were whatever you feel fits the balance of a 8th level spell. and yes weird sucks given how ridiculously powerful other 8th level spells are. Maybe give disadvantage on the continuing save or just flat out remove it.
Sadly a lot of spell schools have this problem where at certain levels they have very sparse coverage.
I'll say this, I think you over state illusory dragon. Take Dragons breath its a 2nd level spell it does 3d6 to a smaller cone. 6 levels later you go up 4d6 to a big cone with a fear effect. Sure its attached to an illusion as opposed to your familiar or something. But 7d6 on demand to a cone is not that impressive to me for a 8th level spell. Its less than fireball. If anything I'd put the spell on the weak side.Can it "route an army" i guess a really small one that 10 cones would wipe out. But, how often is low level peons en masse the threat you are facing. 7d6 a round even as a bonus action just does not feel like its worth it vs level 15+ threats.
But maybe re flavor Maze and power word stun into illusions. In the case of maze maybe give them extra saves, with advantage, or break the spell if they take damage as they are not transported into a maze their minds just think they were whatever you feel fits the balance of a 8th level spell. and yes weird sucks given how ridiculously powerful other 8th level spells are. Maybe give disadvantage on the continuing save or just flat out remove it.
Did you overlook the line “When the illusion appears, any of your enemies that can see it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of it for 1 minute.” in the spell description for Illusory Dragon,
Like I said, all a wizard needs is a hill to cast it on and he / she can route the entire army of Mordor.
As for reflavoring spells, I’ve done that a lot. Maddening darkness, for example, has been reflavored as an illusion.
No i did not miss that, its a fear effect for one minute. That is not a route of a army. That is disadvantage for one minute and they don't move towards the dragon. How often is that going to save the day for you in a campaign. The spell is weak.
A lot of the old edition high level illusion spells were “shadow spells” that duplicated evocation spells but did half damage on a save. In 5e they would probably be full psychic damage on a failed save and half real damage on a save. Take your pick of spells to duplicate. Others allowed you to manipulate your illusions so they responded to the foe’s actions and provided them with a modicum of substance. Finally there were the two alter reality spells that were the illusionist versions of wish and limited wish.
You already have an I win spell it's called mirage arcana. You can drown an entire city. As for other options shadow spells which let you cast any spell one level lower but have a 20/40/60/80/100 real chance from older editions may float your boat.the big problem is high level illusion is conjuration or reality manipulation which if given too much leeway becomes a problem
At its core illusions are bluffs, but to work bluffs need a core of substance. What shadow magic did was provide that core. High level illusion spells need to provide some substance to interact with as well as allow ongoing modification as foes interact. I’m as interested n lower level spells that Mimic things like Mord’s sanctum but give it an illusionary appearance of your choice that reacts like the real thing to the touch so it’s got no real clue that it’s an illusionary covering.
With all respect to WildBill, I actually believe that Illusions are fundamentally debuffers whose primary job is to win action economy by getting the enemy to waste actions. So, the goal is to get the enemy to waste at least two actions per illusion (ideally more because you are using a limited resource).
I do agree with WildBill that buffs are an important part of illusions, jusf not the most important. Illusions are good for positioning the enemy. For example, getting them to cluster so that your buddy can drop a fireball on them or putting a squeeze point on the battlefield so that your buddy fighter can fight them one at a time. Your party members can dish out the damage.
You can do a little damage with Phantasmal Force / Killer and, sometimes, you can cause the enemy to take damage from the environment (e.g. accidentally fall into a hole). You can, as a stretch goal, get your enemy to attack another enemy (e.g. using Seeming and Malleable Illusion). But all of that is the whipped topping on your illusion sundae.
Yes they are great for all of that. However, going back to the poker analogy, if all you ver do is bluff then folks quickly catch on and the bluffs (illusions) stop working. Either your illusions need some bite or you need a decent selection of real spells to mix in so they can never be sure which is which.
Yes they are great for all of that. However, going back to the poker analogy, if all you ver do is bluff then folks quickly catch on and the bluffs (illusions) stop working. Either your illusions need some bite or you need a decent selection of real spells to mix in so they can never be sure which is which.
That’s true if you are a GM. Players don’t typically fight the same monster over and over. Most fights are over in three to five rounds.
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My GM and I were discussing last night about an upcoming PC I’ll be playing in his campaign. It will be a 16th-level Illusionist.
We agree that Illusory Dragon is crazy powerful and unbalanced. As written, the wizard could route the entire army of Mordor while he’s on his morning tea break. All he needs is a hill.
At the same time, Weird sucks. That’s pretty much universally agreed upon by gamers around the world.
So, making Illusory Dragon banned (which we agree on), there are no high-level spells in his school for my 16th-level Illusionist to look forward to.
I’m calling for ideas for concepts for such high-level spells. I’ve got two, but I don’t know if they work.
The first one makes every spell cast in the next minute a Subtle spell.
The second one allows for the caster to concentrate on two illusion or enchantment spells simultaneously. Of course, each spell must be an illusion or enchantment and this spell does not protect against concentration being disrupted.
Alr you just gotta hear me out- I know you said weird sucked
But they improved it in the new rules. I recommend a read further. If you still don't want it than understandable, but may I recommend a spell that forges a domain of your own? Something to trap your enemies in like a dream world but more advanced than maze or demiplane?
Compare Weird to Meteor Swarm.
Meteor Swarm has 20ft larger diameter (150% larger), does 40d6 fire and bludgeoning as opposed to 10d10 damage psychic. (Meteor Swarm does a larger minimum, a larger average, and a larger maximum). Yes, fire resistance is more common, but immunity to psychic is more common. Yes, there is a fear ribbon, but immunity to fear is a thing and it is save every round, so it won’t last long - unlikely to last more than three rounds. And it is a concentration spell.
Did they improve it? Certainly. Does it still suck? Definitely.
Sadly a lot of spell schools have this problem where at certain levels they have very sparse coverage.
I'll say this, I think you over state illusory dragon. Take Dragons breath its a 2nd level spell it does 3d6 to a smaller cone. 6 levels later you go up 4d6 to a big cone with a fear effect. Sure its attached to an illusion as opposed to your familiar or something. But 7d6 on demand to a cone is not that impressive to me for a 8th level spell. Its less than fireball. If anything I'd put the spell on the weak side.Can it "route an army" i guess a really small one that 10 cones would wipe out. But, how often is low level peons en masse the threat you are facing. 7d6 a round even as a bonus action just does not feel like its worth it vs level 15+ threats.
But maybe re flavor Maze and power word stun into illusions. In the case of maze maybe give them extra saves, with advantage, or break the spell if they take damage as they are not transported into a maze their minds just think they were whatever you feel fits the balance of a 8th level spell. and yes weird sucks given how ridiculously powerful other 8th level spells are. Maybe give disadvantage on the continuing save or just flat out remove it.
Did you overlook the line “When the illusion appears, any of your enemies that can see it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of it for 1 minute.” in the spell description for Illusory Dragon,
Like I said, all a wizard needs is a hill to cast it on and he / she can route the entire army of Mordor.
As for reflavoring spells, I’ve done that a lot. Maddening darkness, for example, has been reflavored as an illusion.
No i did not miss that, its a fear effect for one minute. That is not a route of a army. That is disadvantage for one minute and they don't move towards the dragon. How often is that going to save the day for you in a campaign. The spell is weak.
Hmmmmm...I checked an OSR (old dnd versions) illusionist spell list, but it only goes to level 7: Master Illusionist Spell list (bobsenk.com). This free product says in has levels 1-9 from 1 and 2ed plus a few: The Basic Illusionist - Darkwater Press | DriveThruRPG.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
A lot of the old edition high level illusion spells were “shadow spells” that duplicated evocation spells but did half damage on a save. In 5e they would probably be full psychic damage on a failed save and half real damage on a save. Take your pick of spells to duplicate. Others allowed you to manipulate your illusions so they responded to the foe’s actions and provided them with a modicum of substance. Finally there were the two alter reality spells that were the illusionist versions of wish and limited wish.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You already have an I win spell it's called mirage arcana. You can drown an entire city. As for other options shadow spells which let you cast any spell one level lower but have a 20/40/60/80/100 real chance from older editions may float your boat.the big problem is high level illusion is conjuration or reality manipulation which if given too much leeway becomes a problem
At its core illusions are bluffs, but to work bluffs need a core of substance. What shadow magic did was provide that core. High level illusion spells need to provide some substance to interact with as well as allow ongoing modification as foes interact. I’m as interested n lower level spells that Mimic things like Mord’s sanctum but give it an illusionary appearance of your choice that reacts like the real thing to the touch so it’s got no real clue that it’s an illusionary covering.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
With all respect to WildBill, I actually believe that Illusions are fundamentally debuffers whose primary job is to win action economy by getting the enemy to waste actions. So, the goal is to get the enemy to waste at least two actions per illusion (ideally more because you are using a limited resource).
I do agree with WildBill that buffs are an important part of illusions, jusf not the most important. Illusions are good for positioning the enemy. For example, getting them to cluster so that your buddy can drop a fireball on them or putting a squeeze point on the battlefield so that your buddy fighter can fight them one at a time. Your party members can dish out the damage.
You can do a little damage with Phantasmal Force / Killer and, sometimes, you can cause the enemy to take damage from the environment (e.g. accidentally fall into a hole). You can, as a stretch goal, get your enemy to attack another enemy (e.g. using Seeming and Malleable Illusion). But all of that is the whipped topping on your illusion sundae.
Yes they are great for all of that. However, going back to the poker analogy, if all you ver do is bluff then folks quickly catch on and the bluffs (illusions) stop working. Either your illusions need some bite or you need a decent selection of real spells to mix in so they can never be sure which is which.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That’s true if you are a GM. Players don’t typically fight the same monster over and over. Most fights are over in three to five rounds.