That would be a decision Wizards of the Coast would have to make as D&D Beyond can't dictate the terms of how they distribute Wizard's content. WotC did subscription models for the previous edition and, from all accounts, it wasn't a very positive outcome.
Yeah, but there were a number of factors. First, the previous edition just wasn't very well received in general, driving many players to either stick with 3.5 or go to Pathfinder. Second, the lead developer of the online tools committed suicide. The tools as designed weren't intuitive to use, weren't web-based, etc... I actually subscribed to the 4e tools for a while.
So many people come to this site PURELY because they want to use the character builder, and they leave disappointed. In my discussions with people at cons, in other forums, at FLGS, it always comes down to 'I don't want to buy the content twice.'. But those same people would be perfectly willing to pay a fee to use a well designed character builder. They don't want to buy a book. They want to pay to access a single tool that this site offers. Psychologically, there is something very different to people about paying to access a tool as opposed to 'buying content twice'.
Now, I realize that the deal WOTC and DDB set up doesn't support this. But I think it was a mistake and one they can still correct. A compendium version of a book they already own is not what a large portion of the player base at large was looking for (which is just a nice automated easy to use character builder), and whether the actual dollars spent is the same or even less in the long run, the way the current model is set up is psychologically unappealing to many. Which is obvious from the daily posts complaining about it.
Why not have it the other way around. Sell physical books the same way they are sold now, and also selling the digital book the same way it is sold now, but on D&D Beyond have a physical & digital version package available with like a $5 premium to get the digital *and* the physical book. Then you don't need to worry about including codes in the books to redeem that can be intercepted or used without an actual purchase happening.
So many people come to this site PURELY because they want to use the character builder, and they leave disappointed. In my discussions with people at cons, in other forums, at FLGS, it always comes down to 'I don't want to buy the content twice.'. But those same people would be perfectly willing to pay a fee to use a well designed character builder. They don't want to buy a book. They want to pay to access a single tool that this site offers. Psychologically, there is something very different to people about paying to access a tool as opposed to 'buying content twice'.
But do those people realise the DDB has had to code up all the rules from the books so that they work on the character sheet?
There is also all the hyperlinking between different pages, such as accessing the full spell pages from within the spells tab of the character sheet.
There is a lot of work required rather than just copying a print edition onto individual web pages - that sort of site would definitely suck!
A lot of workable ideas as to how authentication for book purchases could be made to work. Fundamental problem being ignored though is price increase are players willing to accept on the books? 25%? %50%? 100%? I wager the answer is 0%. What this all boils down to is that people want DnD Beyond for no additional cost if they buy a physical copy of the book and that DnDBeyond would essentially become a free service. That is never going to happen. Possibly a 3rd rate minimum budget version could get squeezed out, but even that is unlikely. There are a load of people working on it. Architects, Designers, Coders, etc. There are also significant hosting costs. None of this is free or even particularly cheap. If wizards pays them from existing book margins, well then that's a MASSIVE new cost with no gain in revenue. In fact there would be a reduction in revenue as Wizards no longer get a cut of DnD Beyond profits, which would no longer exist. This is before even considering the costs associated with DnD Beyond itself.
Long story short, this is never, ever going to happen. Personally, I use DnD Beyond as my primary purchase option these days. It comes with tools, is easily shareable, available pretty much anywhere I go. It's a great service, well worth the investment and incidentally a big obstacle to my group switching to another system. During the great plague of 2020 it has been utterly invaluable. I still buy physical copies of selected titles, because I am old and like dead trees. But they mostly sit on the shelf and look pretty these days.
Just my 2c worth. Your use case may differ. But you are not getting something of the quality of DnD Beyond for free. Basic economics.
I agree that Beyond is not and should not be free. I too also buy almost exclusively on Beyond. The only physical books I have are Xanthars and Tashas. I do want to pick up the foil cover 3-set, but more so as a Collectable than anything else.
On the economics side of things, just some quick maths on this.
Wizards of the Coast have three digital partners where you can purchase digital versions of the sourcebooks - D&D Beyond, Fantasy Grounds, and Roll20. Due to this, ANY system to provide a complimentary digital version has to include all three partners.
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
We also have to recognise that there would need to be some sort of shared licensing system between Wizards of the Coast and their partners, so let's be optimistic and add $5 to cover the cost of building and maintaining that.
Now you can purchase the Player's Handbook and have free digital, but .... the Player's Handbook costs $100.
Oh and, because Wizards of the Coast have lower revenue now too, they can't afford the level of quality, so the content in the books won't be as good.
My personal take is that it is a significantly better situation to allow everyone to separately purchase what they want, rather than force people to spend money on something they may not want.
In an ideal world, I fully believe in the idea that the purchase of a roleplay game includes digital support (see where we're doing EXACTLY that with Cortex Prime), but with multiple partners and companies involved, it just isn't practical for Dungeons & Dragons.
Except when I buy a Bluray with a digital code I can choose where I want my digital copy to go, so you could do the EXACT same thing. You buy the book, maybe one with a higher cost, you get a code, you choose which system to redeem that code on.
At this point I don't think it will happen, just saying that it is possible and I don't think there are as many hurdles as people say there are.
Except when I buy a Bluray with a digital code I can choose where I want my digital copy to go, so you could do the EXACT same thing. You buy the book, maybe one with a higher cost, you get a code, you choose which system to redeem that code on.
At this point I don't think it will happen, just saying that it is possible and I don't think there are as many hurdles as people say there are.
Please read the post right above yours.
Not all Blurays come with digital codes, and those that do are often more expensive. The price of those products are also more suitable for bundling. Except for the latest movies, DVD, Bluray, or digital movies alone are just a couple of bucks each, and selling people a movie bundle that is $20 or $30 is a lot easier than selling a book bundle that costs $100.
The movie industry is also much more massive than the TTRPG industry, and movie companies have the resources to make those bundles happen. Just the United States alone, our movie industry is over $11 billion in 2019. From what I can find, the TTRPG market is tiny at $35 million in 2017 covering US and Canada. Even if we just compare Hasbro to Sony, Hasbro at best is the size of a Maine Coon compared to Sony that is about the size of a full grown lion. Hasbro is in no way, shape, or form to take a smaller profit margin compared to Sony. Sony's current wallet alone can buy the entirety of Hasbro 10 times over, and Sony can continue buying 1 or 2 Hasbros every single year. Even if you are willing to pay $100 per book bundle, are you willing to pay $500, $1,000, or even $10,000 on several book bundles to make that business model viable? I am not sure if I am willing to pay $100 per book, but I pretty darn sure most people will not drop $100 on a book. Since we are not going to pick up the tab of the infrastructure to handle digital bundles, you will have to. If you want Wizards to have that kind of infrastructure to consider making those kinds of deals, you will have to be about as lucrative as 314 ($11b/$35m) movie goers.
While I do not think it is impossible, working out those deals is much harder and costlier than you realize. My knowledge of business is very limited to just accounting, but I know enough about business to never assume something is cheap nor easy to do, and this goes for any kind of profession, not just business. If you have to make a guess about the cost to make something happen, you need to be prepared to pay at least 5, 10, or even 20 times more. For how difficult and ugly things can turn out, Disney and Sony got into a spat about profits about a year ago and Spider-Man nearly had a divorce with the MCU.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
Assuming that I want to buy the book at all of Dnd Beyond, FG and R20. If I only want one of them, then it's 65. If I already own the PHB, it's 15 for me to access that content for the second time on D&D beyond. Later, if I want it at Roll20, it's another 15, much more reasonable than paying 30 for it when I own in twice already. I bet Roll20 would rather have 15 of my dollars than 0.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
See my post right above your about having that kind of infrastructure in place. The cost of a barcode is not just the cost of printing it. Who is going to develop the software to tell you that someone has used the barcode and keep track of it all? And that is just software development. How is Beyond going to eat? If you get a digital version on Beyond, should you be able to get the physical version for free from your local game store? If local game stores have to buy their products from Wizards but be forced to give that product away for free, they sure as hell are not going to stock any D&D books.
If there is not a big enough market to support developing that infrastructure with that kind of expense, why should Wizards develop it if you are not going to pay at least $500 per book?
Physical and digital versions may have similarities, but they are completely separate and different products. It would be like your boss telling you that you are only going to get paid for only one month for the entire year, since your boss have no reason to pay you for twelve months if you are just doing the same work over and over.
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
Assuming that I want to buy the book at all of Dnd Beyond, FG and R20. If I only want one of them, then it's 65. If I already own the PHB, it's 15 for me to access that content for the second time on D&D beyond. Later, if I want it at Roll20, it's another 15, much more reasonable than paying 30 for it when I own in twice already. I bet Roll20 would rather have 15 of my dollars than 0.
You are ignoring the cost of the infrastructure that is required to implement that, not to mention the sheer difficulty of negotiation to get all the companies in agreement in the first place.
If you think doing business is that simple, then pitch that idea to Wizards to see what their response is.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
No. It isn’t that simple at all. Every copy of the PHB has the same barcode. (That’s what the “U” in “UPC” stands for “universal,” because they’re all the same.) so no, it isn’t anywhere near that simple at all.
In addition, if you purchase a Physical copy and you also purchase a digital copy, then you didn’t “get charged twice for the same content” as you put it. You got charged once for a beautiful, full color, glossy paged, hard bound book that happens to contain some content, and then you got charged once for a fully interactive digital book with convenient links, etc., and that also happens to have the same content.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
See my post right above your about having that kind of infrastructure in place. The cost of a barcode is not just the cost of printing it. Who is going to develop the software to tell you that someone has used the barcode and keep track of it all? And that is just software development. How is Beyond going to eat? If you get a digital version on Beyond, should you be able to get the physical version for free from your local game store? If local game stores have to buy their products from Wizards but be forced to give that product away for free, they sure as hell are not going to stock any D&D books.
If there is not a big enough market to support developing that infrastructure with that kind of expense, why should Wizards develop it if you are not going to pay at least $500 per book?
Physical and digital versions may have similarities, but they are completely separate and different products. It would be like your boss telling you that you are only going to get paid for only one month for the entire year, since your boss have no reason to pay you for twelve months if you are just doing the same work over and over.
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
Assuming that I want to buy the book at all of Dnd Beyond, FG and R20. If I only want one of them, then it's 65. If I already own the PHB, it's 15 for me to access that content for the second time on D&D beyond. Later, if I want it at Roll20, it's another 15, much more reasonable than paying 30 for it when I own in twice already. I bet Roll20 would rather have 15 of my dollars than 0.
You are ignoring the cost of the infrastructure that is required to implement that, not to mention the sheer difficulty of negotiation to get all the companies in agreement in the first place.
If you think doing business is that simple, then pitch that idea to Wizards to see what their response is.
Perhaps I should preface this with, I am a web developer who recently built a voucher redemption system for a large holiday business in the UK, it was not very different from what we are discussing here. To your question of who pays for the "infrastructure", im not sure what you think is required, likely they already have it. It's an additional database table, maybe two. It's a simple piece of functionality to develop, with an app as sophisticated as dnd beyond, the developers could easily handle that. QR code scanning is trivial from within a mobile application or web app.
Should you get the book for free from a LGS.. of course not and it's silly to suggest that, but there's nothing to say there can't be a redemption scheme in place for LGS that brings that parity with the reverse version. Or you could get it direct from Wizards, Either way I would imagine that you could have a "voucher" for a reduced price version of the book if you bought it online and Wizards pass that value back to the LGS.
I do agree that the contracts and negotiation are the sticking point but given the fact that Wizards are well, huge and providing the content that Roll20 / FG thrive off for the main part, I'd say they're in a rather good negotiating position.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
No. It isn’t that simple at all. Every copy of the PHB has the same barcode. (That’s what the “U” in “UPC” stands for “universal,” because they’re all the same.) so no, it isn’t anywhere near that simple at all.
In addition, if you purchase a Physical copy and you also purchase a digital copy, then you didn’t “get charged twice for the same content” as you put it. You got charged once for a beautiful, full color, glossy paged, hard bound book that happens to contain some content, and then you got charged once for a fully interactive digital book with convenient links, etc., and that also happens to have the same content.
If I buy the PHB physical copy and DDB digital copy, the dungeons and dragons 5e content I have access to is the same, what is different is the delivery method. Should there be some additional price for that, of course. Is it reasonable to pay the same price again, no.
When you purchase these things, you think you are purchasing “the content,” but you are not. You are purchasing a hard bound book, and a digital book. The fact that both contain the same content is irrelevant. If you find that so objectionable, then the solution is fairly simple, pick the version that is most important to you and don’t purchase the other version. I simply do not purchase the dead trees version and only purchase from DDB. That means I only pay once. You seem to be the one making this all more complicated than it should be. So I’ll make it simple for you again:
You only want to pay once? Then only purchase one copy and not both.
You want both copies? Then pay twice just like everyone else.
See how simple it is?
If you wanted to have two hardback copies, would you expect them to give you the second one for free because you already purchased one copy?!?
When you purchase these things, you think you are purchasing “the content,” but you are not. You are purchasing a hard bound book, and a digital book. The fact that both contain the same content is irrelevant. If you find that so objectionable, then the solution is fairly simple, pick the version that is most important to you and don’t purchase the other version. I simply do not purchase the dead trees version and only purchase from DDB. That means I only pay once. You seem to be the one making this all more complicated than it should be. So I’ll make it simple for you again:
You only want to pay once? Then only purchase one copy and not both.
You want both copies? Then pay twice just like everyone else.
See how simple it is?
If you wanted to have two hardback copies, would you expect them to give you the second one for free because you already purchased one copy?!?
Are you always this antagonistic? Have I offended you somehow?
I bought my books before there was a D&D Beyond, if I had my choice now, I would almost certainly buy the digital copies. I have no problem with digital media in the slightest. You are diverting from the topic, to ad hominem arguments. What I have proposed is a viable solution to my own situation and I am sure the situation of many others who purchased pre beyond.
We're talking about Wizards here, they know all about logistics (look at their global distribution of MTG products multiple times per year) and development, if they haven't developed this feature it's likely because they don't want to, not because it's too difficult. A feature like this is not difficult for an enterprise sized company to develop. I've done it.
When you purchase these things, you think you are purchasing “the content,” but you are not. You are purchasing a hard bound book, and a digital book. The fact that both contain the same content is irrelevant. If you find that so objectionable, then the solution is fairly simple, pick the version that is most important to you and don’t purchase the other version. I simply do not purchase the dead trees version and only purchase from DDB. That means I only pay once. You seem to be the one making this all more complicated than it should be. So I’ll make it simple for you again:
You only want to pay once? Then only purchase one copy and not both.
You want both copies? Then pay twice just like everyone else.
See how simple it is?
If you wanted to have two hardback copies, would you expect them to give you the second one for free because you already purchased one copy?!?
Are you always this antagonistic? Have I offended you somehow?
I bought my books before there was a D&D Beyond, if I had my choice now, I would almost certainly buy the digital copies. I have no problem with digital media in the slightest. You are diverting from the topic, to ad hominem arguments. What I have proposed is a viable solution to my own situation and I am sure the situation of many others who purchased pre beyond.
We're talking about Wizards here, they know all about logistics (look at their global distribution of MTG products multiple times per year) and development, if they haven't developed this feature it's likely because they don't want to, not because it's too difficult. A feature like this is not difficult for an enterprise sized company to develop. I've done it.
One would think that, being a web developer, you would place a greater value on digital products. That is the real problem here that yourself and many others have. You don't place value in D&D Beyond because it's digital. I'm going to illustrate the point you're trying to make the other way.
I've purchased all the sourcebooks and several adventures on Beyond. Why can't I get the physical copies for free or at a discount?
It's the same argument and, hopefully, everyone can see how absolutely preposterous it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
When you purchase these things, you think you are purchasing “the content,” but you are not. You are purchasing a hard bound book, and a digital book. The fact that both contain the same content is irrelevant. If you find that so objectionable, then the solution is fairly simple, pick the version that is most important to you and don’t purchase the other version. I simply do not purchase the dead trees version and only purchase from DDB. That means I only pay once. You seem to be the one making this all more complicated than it should be. So I’ll make it simple for you again:
You only want to pay once? Then only purchase one copy and not both.
You want both copies? Then pay twice just like everyone else.
See how simple it is?
If you wanted to have two hardback copies, would you expect them to give you the second one for free because you already purchased one copy?!?
Are you always this antagonistic? Have I offended you somehow?
I bought my books before there was a D&D Beyond, if I had my choice now, I would almost certainly buy the digital copies. I have no problem with digital media in the slightest. You are diverting from the topic, to ad hominem arguments. What I have proposed is a viable solution to my own situation and I am sure the situation of many others who purchased pre beyond.
We're talking about Wizards here, they know all about logistics (look at their global distribution of MTG products multiple times per year) and development, if they haven't developed this feature it's likely because they don't want to, not because it's too difficult. A feature like this is not difficult for an enterprise sized company to develop. I've done it.
You do of course realize that WotC does not own this website. Don’t you? This website is owned by a company named Fandom Inc. This website is basically an online bookstore that only sells digital versions of D&D products. They also provide some free tools for their customers to use with the materials we purchase from this website, tools such as the character builder and the encounter builder/combat tracker.
This website makes absolutely nothing, not 1 penny from WotC. This website makes not a single cent from the sale of physical books whatsoever. So no, this has nothing to do with WotC, how much money they make, or anything else. This website has to make its money somehow, they do it by selling things. If you actually value the services that DDB provides as you claim, then you should be happy to support them financially.
PS- If you wish to know at what level of antagonism my posts usually hold, you can click/tap my avatar to link to my profile, and you can read all of my posts. Bring popcorn, and plan for biobreaks.
There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
See my post right above your about having that kind of infrastructure in place. The cost of a barcode is not just the cost of printing it. Who is going to develop the software to tell you that someone has used the barcode and keep track of it all? And that is just software development. How is Beyond going to eat? If you get a digital version on Beyond, should you be able to get the physical version for free from your local game store? If local game stores have to buy their products from Wizards but be forced to give that product away for free, they sure as hell are not going to stock any D&D books.
If there is not a big enough market to support developing that infrastructure with that kind of expense, why should Wizards develop it if you are not going to pay at least $500 per book?
Physical and digital versions may have similarities, but they are completely separate and different products. It would be like your boss telling you that you are only going to get paid for only one month for the entire year, since your boss have no reason to pay you for twelve months if you are just doing the same work over and over.
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
Assuming that I want to buy the book at all of Dnd Beyond, FG and R20. If I only want one of them, then it's 65. If I already own the PHB, it's 15 for me to access that content for the second time on D&D beyond. Later, if I want it at Roll20, it's another 15, much more reasonable than paying 30 for it when I own in twice already. I bet Roll20 would rather have 15 of my dollars than 0.
You are ignoring the cost of the infrastructure that is required to implement that, not to mention the sheer difficulty of negotiation to get all the companies in agreement in the first place.
If you think doing business is that simple, then pitch that idea to Wizards to see what their response is.
Perhaps I should preface this with, I am a web developer who recently built a voucher redemption system for a large holiday business in the UK, it was not very different from what we are discussing here. To your question of who pays for the "infrastructure", im not sure what you think is required, likely they already have it. It's an additional database table, maybe two. It's a simple piece of functionality to develop, with an app as sophisticated as dnd beyond, the developers could easily handle that. QR code scanning is trivial from within a mobile application or web app.
Should you get the book for free from a LGS.. of course not and it's silly to suggest that, but there's nothing to say there can't be a redemption scheme in place for LGS that brings that parity with the reverse version. Or you could get it direct from Wizards, Either way I would imagine that you could have a "voucher" for a reduced price version of the book if you bought it online and Wizards pass that value back to the LGS.
I do agree that the contracts and negotiation are the sticking point but given the fact that Wizards are well, huge and providing the content that Roll20 / FG thrive off for the main part, I'd say they're in a rather good negotiating position.
If you are a web developer, then do you know how much it costs in total to implement the system you worked on? This is not just about your salary or wages. You also need to factor all your coworker's labor costs, hardware, maintenance, anything else that goes into the project. If you do not know, then ask someone from finance or accounting, and they should know where to go to get that answer.
Now that you know how much it costs, why should Wizards even spend that money in the first place if it does not earn them more profit? And even if it does earn them profit, why would would they spend money on it if simply spending money on writing a new book would earn them even more money?
If it is silly to get the physical copy for free, then it is equally silly to get the digital version for free. Redemption schemes are not suitable for every business or product. You do not get a discount on any digital Harry Potter books from buying physical Harry Potter books.
I do not think you realize how small Wizards and Hasbro are. Sony's wallet alone can buy 10 Hasbros, and Sony can continue to buy 1 or 2 Hasbros every single year just from its annual revenue. Please read my post regarding the market size of the movie industry compared to the TTRPG industry, and why it simply is not feasible to demand Wizards to do what Sony can do.
You are also overestimating the negotiating power of Wizards. While Wizards is the senior partner in the relationship between itself and third party companies, there are limits to what it can make other companies do. Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds can go completely without Wizards if necessary. While Beyond is wholly dependent on Wizards, Fandom (Beyond's parent) is not, and Fandom has no issue with cutting off Wizards and terminate Beyond, and Fandom probably would not even notice much of a difference financially.
We're talking about Wizards here, they know all about logistics (look at their global distribution of MTG products multiple times per year) and development, if they haven't developed this feature it's likely because they don't want to, not because it's too difficult. A feature like this is not difficult for an enterprise sized company to develop. I've done it.
MTG is a wholly different market compared to D&D. It is at least a thousand times cheaper to collect every single D&D 5e book than it is to collect every single Magic card since 2014. The difference in market size is huge too. I do not know anyone who played D&D until I was 26. I know people who played Magic since I was 9. Magic cards frequently go out of rotation, while D&D books only go out of rotation when a new edition comes out.
If Wizards is not making redemption schemes a part of their business strategy, then it is mostly because it would be a complete waste of money and it is not profitable to do so. Why should anyone offer to save you money if they are not going to make more money in return?
If you think it is so cheap and easy to implement, then I implore you to contact Wizards about it, preferably via Twitter or Facebook so I can direct people to go read Wizard's response whenever this comes up.
Yeah, but there were a number of factors. First, the previous edition just wasn't very well received in general, driving many players to either stick with 3.5 or go to Pathfinder. Second, the lead developer of the online tools committed suicide. The tools as designed weren't intuitive to use, weren't web-based, etc... I actually subscribed to the 4e tools for a while.
So many people come to this site PURELY because they want to use the character builder, and they leave disappointed. In my discussions with people at cons, in other forums, at FLGS, it always comes down to 'I don't want to buy the content twice.'. But those same people would be perfectly willing to pay a fee to use a well designed character builder. They don't want to buy a book. They want to pay to access a single tool that this site offers. Psychologically, there is something very different to people about paying to access a tool as opposed to 'buying content twice'.
Now, I realize that the deal WOTC and DDB set up doesn't support this. But I think it was a mistake and one they can still correct. A compendium version of a book they already own is not what a large portion of the player base at large was looking for (which is just a nice automated easy to use character builder), and whether the actual dollars spent is the same or even less in the long run, the way the current model is set up is psychologically unappealing to many. Which is obvious from the daily posts complaining about it.
Why not have it the other way around. Sell physical books the same way they are sold now, and also selling the digital book the same way it is sold now, but on D&D Beyond have a physical & digital version package available with like a $5 premium to get the digital *and* the physical book. Then you don't need to worry about including codes in the books to redeem that can be intercepted or used without an actual purchase happening.
But do those people realise the DDB has had to code up all the rules from the books so that they work on the character sheet?
There is also all the hyperlinking between different pages, such as accessing the full spell pages from within the spells tab of the character sheet.
There is a lot of work required rather than just copying a print edition onto individual web pages - that sort of site would definitely suck!
A lot of workable ideas as to how authentication for book purchases could be made to work. Fundamental problem being ignored though is price increase are players willing to accept on the books? 25%? %50%? 100%? I wager the answer is 0%. What this all boils down to is that people want DnD Beyond for no additional cost if they buy a physical copy of the book and that DnDBeyond would essentially become a free service. That is never going to happen. Possibly a 3rd rate minimum budget version could get squeezed out, but even that is unlikely. There are a load of people working on it. Architects, Designers, Coders, etc. There are also significant hosting costs. None of this is free or even particularly cheap. If wizards pays them from existing book margins, well then that's a MASSIVE new cost with no gain in revenue. In fact there would be a reduction in revenue as Wizards no longer get a cut of DnD Beyond profits, which would no longer exist. This is before even considering the costs associated with DnD Beyond itself.
Long story short, this is never, ever going to happen. Personally, I use DnD Beyond as my primary purchase option these days. It comes with tools, is easily shareable, available pretty much anywhere I go. It's a great service, well worth the investment and incidentally a big obstacle to my group switching to another system. During the great plague of 2020 it has been utterly invaluable. I still buy physical copies of selected titles, because I am old and like dead trees. But they mostly sit on the shelf and look pretty these days.
Just my 2c worth. Your use case may differ. But you are not getting something of the quality of DnD Beyond for free. Basic economics.
I agree that Beyond is not and should not be free. I too also buy almost exclusively on Beyond. The only physical books I have are Xanthars and Tashas. I do want to pick up the foil cover 3-set, but more so as a Collectable than anything else.
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D&D Beyond FoundersOn the economics side of things, just some quick maths on this.
Wizards of the Coast have three digital partners where you can purchase digital versions of the sourcebooks - D&D Beyond, Fantasy Grounds, and Roll20. Due to this, ANY system to provide a complimentary digital version has to include all three partners.
Player's Handbook - hardback book (RRP): $50
Player's Handbook - D&D Beyond: $30
Player's Handbook - Fantasy Grounds: $30
Player's Handbook - Roll20: $30
That's $140
Let's make an assumption that has been requested by people - that Wizards of the Coast waive their licensing fee for digital, for people who purchase the book. Maybe that reduces the cost of each digital sourcebook to $15 for each digital partner.
That means the Player's Handbook now costs $50 + $15 + $15 + $15 = $95.
We also have to recognise that there would need to be some sort of shared licensing system between Wizards of the Coast and their partners, so let's be optimistic and add $5 to cover the cost of building and maintaining that.
Now you can purchase the Player's Handbook and have free digital, but .... the Player's Handbook costs $100.
Oh and, because Wizards of the Coast have lower revenue now too, they can't afford the level of quality, so the content in the books won't be as good.
My personal take is that it is a significantly better situation to allow everyone to separately purchase what they want, rather than force people to spend money on something they may not want.
In an ideal world, I fully believe in the idea that the purchase of a roleplay game includes digital support (see where we're doing EXACTLY that with Cortex Prime), but with multiple partners and companies involved, it just isn't practical for Dungeons & Dragons.
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Except when I buy a Bluray with a digital code I can choose where I want my digital copy to go, so you could do the EXACT same thing. You buy the book, maybe one with a higher cost, you get a code, you choose which system to redeem that code on.
At this point I don't think it will happen, just saying that it is possible and I don't think there are as many hurdles as people say there are.
Please read the post right above yours.
Not all Blurays come with digital codes, and those that do are often more expensive. The price of those products are also more suitable for bundling. Except for the latest movies, DVD, Bluray, or digital movies alone are just a couple of bucks each, and selling people a movie bundle that is $20 or $30 is a lot easier than selling a book bundle that costs $100.
The movie industry is also much more massive than the TTRPG industry, and movie companies have the resources to make those bundles happen. Just the United States alone, our movie industry is over $11 billion in 2019. From what I can find, the TTRPG market is tiny at $35 million in 2017 covering US and Canada. Even if we just compare Hasbro to Sony, Hasbro at best is the size of a Maine Coon compared to Sony that is about the size of a full grown lion. Hasbro is in no way, shape, or form to take a smaller profit margin compared to Sony. Sony's current wallet alone can buy the entirety of Hasbro 10 times over, and Sony can continue buying 1 or 2 Hasbros every single year. Even if you are willing to pay $100 per book bundle, are you willing to pay $500, $1,000, or even $10,000 on several book bundles to make that business model viable? I am not sure if I am willing to pay $100 per book, but I pretty darn sure most people will not drop $100 on a book. Since we are not going to pick up the tab of the infrastructure to handle digital bundles, you will have to. If you want Wizards to have that kind of infrastructure to consider making those kinds of deals, you will have to be about as lucrative as 314 ($11b/$35m) movie goers.
While I do not think it is impossible, working out those deals is much harder and costlier than you realize. My knowledge of business is very limited to just accounting, but I know enough about business to never assume something is cheap nor easy to do, and this goes for any kind of profession, not just business. If you have to make a guess about the cost to make something happen, you need to be prepared to pay at least 5, 10, or even 20 times more. For how difficult and ugly things can turn out, Disney and Sony got into a spat about profits about a year ago and Spider-Man nearly had a divorce with the MCU.
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There is so much over thinking going on here it's unreal. Isn't it simple as;
- I buy the book / have the book
- I scan the barcode into my shiny new dndbeyond "digitize my collection" feature and get access to that content on D&D Beyond.
- If that barcode already exists in the database, so it has been previously scanned (either by the previous owner if I bought it second hand, or a sneaky person in a LGS) then that content is removed from the account that previously registered the content and applied to my account?
- Some sneaky bugger scans my code while i'm not looked, I get a notification in dnd beyond "your Players Handbook code was used on another account please rescan if this is a mistake"
replace barcode for a QR code that is printed on the inside of the back cover for new books if barcodes are for some reason not unique.
This means that the worst case scenario for Wizards, is that someone scans a book in a store and gets access until that book is claimed. Which will be a minute number of cases, there's not some massive underground market for dnd.
It doesn't seem that difficult, but then I can't get charged twice for the same content.
Assuming that I want to buy the book at all of Dnd Beyond, FG and R20. If I only want one of them, then it's 65. If I already own the PHB, it's 15 for me to access that content for the second time on D&D beyond. Later, if I want it at Roll20, it's another 15, much more reasonable than paying 30 for it when I own in twice already. I bet Roll20 would rather have 15 of my dollars than 0.
See my post right above your about having that kind of infrastructure in place. The cost of a barcode is not just the cost of printing it. Who is going to develop the software to tell you that someone has used the barcode and keep track of it all? And that is just software development. How is Beyond going to eat? If you get a digital version on Beyond, should you be able to get the physical version for free from your local game store? If local game stores have to buy their products from Wizards but be forced to give that product away for free, they sure as hell are not going to stock any D&D books.
If there is not a big enough market to support developing that infrastructure with that kind of expense, why should Wizards develop it if you are not going to pay at least $500 per book?
Physical and digital versions may have similarities, but they are completely separate and different products. It would be like your boss telling you that you are only going to get paid for only one month for the entire year, since your boss have no reason to pay you for twelve months if you are just doing the same work over and over.
You are ignoring the cost of the infrastructure that is required to implement that, not to mention the sheer difficulty of negotiation to get all the companies in agreement in the first place.
If you think doing business is that simple, then pitch that idea to Wizards to see what their response is.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
No. It isn’t that simple at all. Every copy of the PHB has the same barcode. (That’s what the “U” in “UPC” stands for “universal,” because they’re all the same.) so no, it isn’t anywhere near that simple at all.
In addition, if you purchase a Physical copy and you also purchase a digital copy, then you didn’t “get charged twice for the same content” as you put it. You got charged once for a beautiful, full color, glossy paged, hard bound book that happens to contain some content, and then you got charged once for a fully interactive digital book with convenient links, etc., and that also happens to have the same content.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Perhaps I should preface this with, I am a web developer who recently built a voucher redemption system for a large holiday business in the UK, it was not very different from what we are discussing here. To your question of who pays for the "infrastructure", im not sure what you think is required, likely they already have it. It's an additional database table, maybe two. It's a simple piece of functionality to develop, with an app as sophisticated as dnd beyond, the developers could easily handle that. QR code scanning is trivial from within a mobile application or web app.
Should you get the book for free from a LGS.. of course not and it's silly to suggest that, but there's nothing to say there can't be a redemption scheme in place for LGS that brings that parity with the reverse version. Or you could get it direct from Wizards, Either way I would imagine that you could have a "voucher" for a reduced price version of the book if you bought it online and Wizards pass that value back to the LGS.
I do agree that the contracts and negotiation are the sticking point but given the fact that Wizards are well, huge and providing the content that Roll20 / FG thrive off for the main part, I'd say they're in a rather good negotiating position.
If I buy the PHB physical copy and DDB digital copy, the dungeons and dragons 5e content I have access to is the same, what is different is the delivery method. Should there be some additional price for that, of course. Is it reasonable to pay the same price again, no.
When you purchase these things, you think you are purchasing “the content,” but you are not. You are purchasing a hard bound book, and a digital book. The fact that both contain the same content is irrelevant. If you find that so objectionable, then the solution is fairly simple, pick the version that is most important to you and don’t purchase the other version. I simply do not purchase the dead trees version and only purchase from DDB. That means I only pay once. You seem to be the one making this all more complicated than it should be. So I’ll make it simple for you again:
You only want to pay once? Then only purchase one copy and not both.
You want both copies? Then pay twice just like everyone else.
See how simple it is?
If you wanted to have two hardback copies, would you expect them to give you the second one for free because you already purchased one copy?!?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Are you always this antagonistic? Have I offended you somehow?
I bought my books before there was a D&D Beyond, if I had my choice now, I would almost certainly buy the digital copies. I have no problem with digital media in the slightest. You are diverting from the topic, to ad hominem arguments. What I have proposed is a viable solution to my own situation and I am sure the situation of many others who purchased pre beyond.
We're talking about Wizards here, they know all about logistics (look at their global distribution of MTG products multiple times per year) and development, if they haven't developed this feature it's likely because they don't want to, not because it's too difficult. A feature like this is not difficult for an enterprise sized company to develop. I've done it.
One would think that, being a web developer, you would place a greater value on digital products. That is the real problem here that yourself and many others have. You don't place value in D&D Beyond because it's digital. I'm going to illustrate the point you're trying to make the other way.
I've purchased all the sourcebooks and several adventures on Beyond. Why can't I get the physical copies for free or at a discount?
It's the same argument and, hopefully, everyone can see how absolutely preposterous it is.
Lightning Strike - A rebranded Fire Bolt for Wizards & Sorcerers.
Spirit Bomb - A holy fireball for Clerics, Paladins, & Divine Soul Sorcerers!
Sword Dancer - A Cleric subclass specifically for the Drow goddess Eilistraee.
Quicksilver & The Scarlet Witch - A pair of magical firearms for your Gunslinger or Artificer.
You do of course realize that WotC does not own this website. Don’t you? This website is owned by a company named Fandom Inc. This website is basically an online bookstore that only sells digital versions of D&D products. They also provide some free tools for their customers to use with the materials we purchase from this website, tools such as the character builder and the encounter builder/combat tracker.
This website makes absolutely nothing, not 1 penny from WotC. This website makes not a single cent from the sale of physical books whatsoever. So no, this has nothing to do with WotC, how much money they make, or anything else. This website has to make its money somehow, they do it by selling things. If you actually value the services that DDB provides as you claim, then you should be happy to support them financially.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
PS- If you wish to know at what level of antagonism my posts usually hold, you can click/tap my avatar to link to my profile, and you can read all of my posts. Bring popcorn, and plan for biobreaks.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If you are a web developer, then do you know how much it costs in total to implement the system you worked on? This is not just about your salary or wages. You also need to factor all your coworker's labor costs, hardware, maintenance, anything else that goes into the project. If you do not know, then ask someone from finance or accounting, and they should know where to go to get that answer.
Now that you know how much it costs, why should Wizards even spend that money in the first place if it does not earn them more profit? And even if it does earn them profit, why would would they spend money on it if simply spending money on writing a new book would earn them even more money?
If it is silly to get the physical copy for free, then it is equally silly to get the digital version for free. Redemption schemes are not suitable for every business or product. You do not get a discount on any digital Harry Potter books from buying physical Harry Potter books.
I do not think you realize how small Wizards and Hasbro are. Sony's wallet alone can buy 10 Hasbros, and Sony can continue to buy 1 or 2 Hasbros every single year just from its annual revenue. Please read my post regarding the market size of the movie industry compared to the TTRPG industry, and why it simply is not feasible to demand Wizards to do what Sony can do.
You are also overestimating the negotiating power of Wizards. While Wizards is the senior partner in the relationship between itself and third party companies, there are limits to what it can make other companies do. Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds can go completely without Wizards if necessary. While Beyond is wholly dependent on Wizards, Fandom (Beyond's parent) is not, and Fandom has no issue with cutting off Wizards and terminate Beyond, and Fandom probably would not even notice much of a difference financially.
MTG is a wholly different market compared to D&D. It is at least a thousand times cheaper to collect every single D&D 5e book than it is to collect every single Magic card since 2014. The difference in market size is huge too. I do not know anyone who played D&D until I was 26. I know people who played Magic since I was 9. Magic cards frequently go out of rotation, while D&D books only go out of rotation when a new edition comes out.
If Wizards is not making redemption schemes a part of their business strategy, then it is mostly because it would be a complete waste of money and it is not profitable to do so. Why should anyone offer to save you money if they are not going to make more money in return?
If you think it is so cheap and easy to implement, then I implore you to contact Wizards about it, preferably via Twitter or Facebook so I can direct people to go read Wizard's response whenever this comes up.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >