The quote was the first part of the light weapon rule for 2024.
You are correct. My bad.
Nonetheless, you're missing all the other things that affect it:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Dual Wielder
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Lightproperty, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Light gives you a bonus action attack. Nick modifies that attack to be not a bonus action, although it's now limited to once a turn. (The inherent Light bonus attack is only limited by the lack of bonus actions.)
Because the Nick attack is not using the bonus action, the Dual Wielder attack, which is not part of the light property, but just triggered by the presence of the Light property (see previous comment about "non-obvious ways"), is able to consume the bonus action.
So, if you invest in a feat, you can get three total attacks off your first attack with a light weapon, though you have to do some silly weapon-juggling tricks to get the most out of it, and you also need a fighting style to get your stat bonus added to the damage of the extra attacks.
I feel like either I'm missing something or everyone else is.
"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack"
You only have one attack action that triggers one extra attack if you attack with a weapon that has the light property. Further attacks do not trigger extra attacks.
I shared this video in another thread. It explains the interaction between the Light weapon property, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style, and Nick weapon mastery in a simple way.
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
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Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
My guess is the RAI is that juggling a shield shouldn't work, and I agree that you should need to make a choice when equipping your character for whatever situation whether to focus on extra damage or defense.
If one of my players tried to use two weapon fighting with a shield, I would probably rule against it.
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
My guess is the RAI is that juggling a shield shouldn't work, and I agree that you should need to make a choice when equipping your character for whatever situation whether to focus on extra damage or defense.
If one of my players tried to use two weapon fighting with a shield, I would probably rule against it.
They explicitly say that putting a shield on or off is the utilize action. (Presumably it's strapped to your arm)
RAW, you can use light/nick or dual wielder to get extra attacks by weapon swapping while using a shield. I can't say whether it's what they wanted, an unforeseen side effect of giving flexible enough rules for what they wanted, or a foreseen side effect that they didn't think they could prevent without making things too complex. (I'm not particularly concerned about it, in any event. I expect people who want to dual wield will actually dual wield, and people who don't, won't. Weapon swapping tricks are mostly going to be in stunt builds.)
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
My guess is the RAI is that juggling a shield shouldn't work, and I agree that you should need to make a choice when equipping your character for whatever situation whether to focus on extra damage or defense.
If one of my players tried to use two weapon fighting with a shield, I would probably rule against it.
They explicitly say that putting a shield on or off is the utilize action. (Presumably it's strapped to your arm)
RAW, you can use light/nick or dual wielder to get extra attacks by weapon swapping while using a shield. I can't say whether it's what they wanted, an unforeseen side effect of giving flexible enough rules for what they wanted, or a foreseen side effect that they didn't think they could prevent without making things too complex. (I'm not particularly concerned about it, in any event. I expect people who want to dual wield will actually dual wield, and people who don't, won't. Weapon swapping tricks are mostly going to be in stunt builds.)
If putting on a shield takes the utilize action, then how does light/nick/dual wielder make you able to able to switch out a shield?
Not asking derisively, I just actually don't see it. Like, light/nick/dual wielder lets you take extra attacks as part of an attack action and your bonus action, that doesn't leave you with an action to swap a shield in or out unless you action surge or have Haste, right?
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
My guess is the RAI is that juggling a shield shouldn't work, and I agree that you should need to make a choice when equipping your character for whatever situation whether to focus on extra damage or defense.
If one of my players tried to use two weapon fighting with a shield, I would probably rule against it.
They explicitly say that putting a shield on or off is the utilize action. (Presumably it's strapped to your arm)
RAW, you can use light/nick or dual wielder to get extra attacks by weapon swapping while using a shield. I can't say whether it's what they wanted, an unforeseen side effect of giving flexible enough rules for what they wanted, or a foreseen side effect that they didn't think they could prevent without making things too complex. (I'm not particularly concerned about it, in any event. I expect people who want to dual wield will actually dual wield, and people who don't, won't. Weapon swapping tricks are mostly going to be in stunt builds.)
If putting on a shield takes the utilize action, then how does light/nick/dual wielder make you able to able to switch out a shield?
Not asking derisively, I just actually don't see it. Like, light/nick/dual wielder lets you take extra attacks as part of an attack action and your bonus action, that doesn't leave you with an action to swap a shield in or out unless you action surge or have Haste, right?
You don't need to switch out the shield at all. It's the Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder that enables keeping a shield in one hand at all times. That, and the lack of any relevant description that clearly states you need a weapon in each hand for any of these relevant abilities. My post #28 earlier outlines one way you can draw/stow a weapon twice to do this, RAW.
RAI? Idk.
(ETA, this all based on another discussion linked earlier in this post)
They explicitly say that putting a shield on or off is the utilize action. (Presumably it's strapped to your arm)
RAW, you can use light/nick or dual wielder to get extra attacks by weapon swapping while using a shield. I can't say whether it's what they wanted, an unforeseen side effect of giving flexible enough rules for what they wanted, or a foreseen side effect that they didn't think they could prevent without making things too complex. (I'm not particularly concerned about it, in any event. I expect people who want to dual wield will actually dual wield, and people who don't, won't. Weapon swapping tricks are mostly going to be in stunt builds.)
If putting on a shield takes the utilize action, then how does light/nick/dual wielder make you able to able to switch out a shield?
Not asking derisively, I just actually don't see it. Like, light/nick/dual wielder lets you take extra attacks as part of an attack action and your bonus action, that doesn't leave you with an action to swap a shield in or out unless you action surge or have Haste, right?
The reason it works is that none of the two-weapon fighting stuff actually requires two-handed wielding. Which is definitely odd, but it is true.
Start with a light weapon (or draw it with your free interaction)
Attack and sheath
Draw second weapon and attack with that (nick attack)
If you have Dual Wielder, you can then take your bonus action attack with that same light weapon.
If they're both Nick weapons, you can just keep doing this every round. You can't fully take advantage of DW's non-light weapon ability unless you have extra attack as well, and maybe not even then. (Can't be bothered to work through it.)
Right, and even if you use one light nick and swap with one light vex, you can still do it, but the weapon in your hand at the start of each round will alternate. So, you have to keep track of when you have vex advantage.
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Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
Right, and even if you use one light nick and swap with one light vex, you can still do it, but the weapon in your hand at the start of each round will alternate. So, you have to keep track of when you have vex advantage.
If you're alternating nick and vex, and only have one base attack, you're going to lose your nick attack half the time, because the DW bonus-action attack cannot trigger the nick attack. (It must be part of the attack action.)
Right, and even if you use one light nick and swap with one light vex, you can still do it, but the weapon in your hand at the start of each round will alternate. So, you have to keep track of when you have vex advantage.
If you're alternating nick and vex, and only have one base attack, you're going to lose your nick attack half the time, because the DW bonus-action attack cannot trigger the nick attack. (It must be part of the attack action.)
Yes, I think prior to extra attack at Level 5, or for classes that don't get extra attack, you would want to swap two Nick weapons to be able to hold a shield and trigger the non-bonus-action Nick mastery extra attack, every turn. You'd still need Quick Draw from Dual Wielder feat to switch to a different Light weapon in the same hand, as per Light weapon property.
With Extra Attack at Level 5, holding a shield in one hand can be justified either by doing the 1 stow and 1 draw with two separate Nick weapons, using the Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. You could also mix in a Vex weapon, like so:
Turn 1: 1) First attack with Light weapon and shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. 2) Extra attack (at level 5) with shortsword at advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. Enhanced Dual Wielding (EDW from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. 3) Stow shortsword, draw scimitar. 2x draw/stow allowed from Quick Draw property of DW feat. Extra attack with different Light Weapon than attack #1, as per Light property. Scimitar mastery Nick allows this attack without using bonus action, but with a different weapon than attack #1. At advantage from previous Vex attack. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property. 4) Bonus action attack with scimitar from EDW property of DW, with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack #2. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
Turn 2: 1) First attack with Light weapon and scimitar mastery. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. Triggers Nick mastery extra attack without bonus action. 2) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. EDW grants bonus action attack. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. 3) Stow scimitar, draw shortsword using QD of DW feat. Extra attack with different Light Weapon than attack #1 as per Light property. Scimitar mastery Nick allows this attack without using bonus action, but with a different weapon than attack 1. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property. 4) Bonus action attack with shortsword from EDW property of DW, with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack #2. At advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
Turn 3: Same as Turn 1, but 1st attack is at advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature.
The only grey area is that Nick doesn't specify whether the Nick mastery weapon must be used in the triggering attack for the extra attack, or if the Nick mastery weapon is used in the resulting extra attack. Or either. Or both. Assuming either one makes it possible to swap in a Vex weapon for two of the four attacks.
Otherwise, you'd have to use two Nick weapons to maintain a shield in the other hand and get all 4 attacks. The alternative is that you can always hold a Nick Light weapon in one hand and a Vex Light weapon in the other hand, without a shield, then there is no question to mix in the Vex advantage attacks.
The summary is that Dual Wielder is necessary for both the bonus action attack (Enhanced Dual Wielder) and to stow/draw weapons in order to hold a shield in the other hand (Quick Draw). Combined with the +1 STR or DEX, this is a very powerful general feat when combined with TWF and Nick Mastery.
Right, and even if you use one light nick and swap with one light vex, you can still do it, but the weapon in your hand at the start of each round will alternate. So, you have to keep track of when you have vex advantage.
If you're alternating nick and vex, and only have one base attack, you're going to lose your nick attack half the time, because the DW bonus-action attack cannot trigger the nick attack. (It must be part of the attack action.)
Yes, I think prior to extra attack at Level 5, or for classes that don't get extra attack, you would want to swap two Nick weapons to be able to hold a shield and trigger the non-bonus-action Nick mastery extra attack, every turn. You'd still need Quick Draw from Dual Wielder feat to switch to a different Light weapon in the same hand, as per Light weapon property.
You don't need it, and also I don't think it works the way you think.
You don't because you can draw or stow on every attack as part of the attack action, plus you have a single additional object interaction
With Extra Attack at Level 5, holding a shield in one hand can be justified either by doing the 1 stow and 1 draw with two separate Nick weapons, using the Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. You could also mix in a Vex weapon, like so:
Turn 1: 1) First attack with Light weapon and shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. 2) Extra attack (at level 5) with shortsword at advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. Enhanced Dual Wielding (EDW from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. 3) Stow shortsword, draw scimitar. 2x draw/stow allowed from Quick Draw property of DW feat. Extra attack with different Light Weapon than attack #1, as per Light property. Scimitar mastery Nick allows this attack without using bonus action, but with a different weapon than attack #1. At advantage from previous Vex attack. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property. 4) Bonus action attack with scimitar from EDW property of DW, with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack #2. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
At the end of step 2, you can stow the shortsword, then draw the scimitar at the start of step 3. The Nick attack is explicitly part of your attack action, so you get a free weapon interaction with it.
As for the other part, I see how you read it that way, and it's not fully clear, because English is bad at this, but:
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
My read of this is it gives you one act that applies to two weapons. It could've been phrased clearer, but it's tricky to get this right.
In looking more about weapon swaps, here is the description in the Attack action:
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
And from Quick Draw of Dual Wielder:
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
"When you make an attack as part of this action" seems to imply that both your regular attack and extra attack (level 5) would each get its own equip/draw or unequip/stow?
And, if you have Dual Wielder, Quick Draw lets you manipulate two weapons each time?
So, with a shield in one hand, after attack #2 in my example, you could stow/unequip weapon M1 and draw/equip weapon M2, as in my example above. If the level 5 extra attack also grants the same, then you can also stow one weapon and draw another before attack #1, making it possible to simply repeat the same order each turn.
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Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
In looking more about weapon swaps, here is the description in the Attack action:
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
And from Quick Draw of Dual Wielder:
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
"When you make an attack as part of this action" seems to imply that both your regular attack and extra attack (level 5) would each get its own equip/draw or unequip/stow?
And also your Nick attack.
And, if you have Dual Wielder, Quick Draw lets you manipulate two weapons each time?
Yes, but as I explained above, you get either a draw of two or a stow of two, not one of each.
Probably. I'm sure it's what they meant, I'm not 100% sure they managed to say it unambiguously.
I'm trying to understand the implication of the TWFS + nick, compared to the basic two-weapon fighting. The wording in the book or your answer are confusing, and I'm not a native english speaker.
For the baseline, let's assume a lvl 6 bladesinger, so no mastery, no fighting style, just an extra attack, and two light weapon (assuming scimitar+short sword, and ignoring booming blade or shadow blade) He will be able to make 1 attack with bonus damage, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack without bonus damage. (NB : Y is the ability modifier for damage) Damage wise : 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y / 1D6. Do you agree ?
Now let's add a fighter lvl to this wizard, bringing nick mastery and TWFS, but no dual wielder feat He will be able to make 1 attack with both weapons thanks to nick, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack with bonus damage thanks to the fighting style. Damage wise : 2*(1D6+Y) / 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y Do you agree ?
Now what does the dual wielder feat bring to this ? I understand that it remove the requirement of a light for one weapon, but then you lose the ability to attack on the bonus action. Do you agree ?
I'm trying to understand the implication of the TWFS + nick, compared to the basic two-weapon fighting. The wording in the book or your answer are confusing, and I'm not a native english speaker.
For the baseline, let's assume a lvl 6 bladesinger, so no mastery, no fighting style, just an extra attack, and two light weapon (assuming scimitar+short sword, and ignoring booming blade or shadow blade) He will be able to make 1 attack with bonus damage, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack without bonus damage. (NB : Y is the ability modifier for damage) Damage wise : 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y / 1D6. Do you agree ?
Yes.
Now let's add a fighter lvl to this wizard, bringing nick mastery and TWFS, but no dual wielder feat He will be able to make 1 attack with both weapons thanks to nick, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack with bonus damage thanks to the fighting style. Damage wise : 2*(1D6+Y) / 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y Do you agree?
No. If you use Nick to make the Light property's attack as part of the Attack action, you can no longer use your bonus action to make that attack.
Now what does the dual wielder feat bring to this ? I understand that it remove the requirement of a light for one weapon, but then you lose the ability to attack on the bonus action. Do you agree ?
No. Letting you make an attack with your bonus action when you've already made the Light property's bonus attack with the Nick property is precisely what the Dual Wielder feat brings to the situation.
Incidentally, the way to fix the light weapon property to actually produce dual wielding is (italics are new text, strikeouts are deleted text)
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon while wielding another Light weapon in your other hand, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Lightthe other weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
I'm trying to understand the implication of the TWFS + nick, compared to the basic two-weapon fighting. The wording in the book or your answer are confusing, and I'm not a native english speaker.
The rules are kind of confusing if you don't speak Rules, and they're spread over four different places, which does not help.
For the baseline, let's assume a lvl 6 bladesinger, so no mastery, no fighting style, just an extra attack, and two light weapon (assuming scimitar+short sword, and ignoring booming blade or shadow blade) He will be able to make 1 attack with bonus damage, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack without bonus damage. (NB : Y is the ability modifier for damage) Damage wise : 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y / 1D6. Do you agree ?
You're correct so far.
Now let's add a fighter lvl to this wizard, bringing nick mastery and TWFS, but no dual wielder feat He will be able to make 1 attack with both weapons thanks to nick, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack with bonus damage thanks to the fighting style. Damage wise : 2*(1D6+Y) / 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y Do you agree ?
This is incorrect. You never attack with both weapons in the game mechanics. Each attack is separate. You also don't get the bonus action attack in your scenario.
Here's the breakdown:
First of all, the extra attack from being leveled up is not needed, and just potentially confuses the issue.
Secondly, the Attack action and an attack are not the same thing. You take an Attack action during your turn, and it lets you take one or more attacks. You can make an attack for other reasons (such as an opportunity attack), but it is not the Attack action.
We assume a character with only one base attack..Having extra attacks doesn't change anything.
Light weapon property:
Everyone gets this. When you attack with a Light weapon as part of your Attack action, it triggers, and you have the ability to take an attack with another Light weapon as a bonus action. The bonus action attack does not get your stat bonus.
Dual Wielder feat:
If you have this, when you make an attack with a Light weapon as part of your Attack action, it triggers, and you have the ability to take an attack with another weapon (with some restrictions on the weapon) as a bonus action. The bonus action attack does not get your stat bonus.
Important: The Dual Wielder bonus attack and the Light bonus attack are not the same thing. If you have DW, and attack with a Light weapon, you have two available bonus action attacks. You can only use one because you have only one bonus action.
Nick weapon mastery:
This modifies the rules of the Light weapon property. Now, instead of being a bonus action, the additional attack you get from attacking with a Light weapon is made as part of the same Attack action, and does not use up your bonus action. All the other restrictions still apply, and you are also forbidden from taking more than one additional attack from the Light property per turn.
This does not alter the Dual Wielder bonus action attack in any way.
So:
Just Light: Normal light attack, bonus action attack with different light weapon
Light with DW: Normal light attack, bonus action attack with different, possibly heavier weapon
Light with Nick: Normal light attack, additional attack with different light weapon as part of the same action. Bonus action unused.
Light, Nick, and DW: Normal light attack, additional attack with different light weapon as part of the same action, and bonus action attack with possibly heavier weapon that cannot be the first-used weapon
In all the above cases, the attacks beyond the initial one do not get the stat bonus.
Two-weapon Fighting Style: This allows you to add your stat bonus to the damage of the attacks you get from both Light (with or without Nick) and Dual Wielder.
Incidentally, the way to fix the light weapon property to actually produce dual wielding is (italics are new text, strikeouts are deleted text)
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon while wielding another Light weapon in your other hand, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Lightthe other weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Net word count increase: 8.
We must assume they meant to do things this way. It's too deliberately constructed.
I don't know why they decided to do it that way, and it's only the third-most-confusing part of the rules.
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You are correct. My bad.
Nonetheless, you're missing all the other things that affect it:
Light gives you a bonus action attack. Nick modifies that attack to be not a bonus action, although it's now limited to once a turn. (The inherent Light bonus attack is only limited by the lack of bonus actions.)
Because the Nick attack is not using the bonus action, the Dual Wielder attack, which is not part of the light property, but just triggered by the presence of the Light property (see previous comment about "non-obvious ways"), is able to consume the bonus action.
So, if you invest in a feat, you can get three total attacks off your first attack with a light weapon, though you have to do some silly weapon-juggling tricks to get the most out of it, and you also need a fighting style to get your stat bonus added to the damage of the extra attacks.
I shared this video in another thread. It explains the interaction between the Light weapon property, Dual Wielder feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style, and Nick weapon mastery in a simple way.
Welp, I think I will have to change my stance.
Nice summary video, though I'm not sure an 8-minute recap of a 4-page thread is simple:-) Still curious if there will be a clarification on main/off hand and using TWF extra draw/stow to pull this off with a shield. Like always, I suppose multiple interpretations of vague rules will come down to individual DM rulings, anyway.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
My guess is the RAI is that juggling a shield shouldn't work, and I agree that you should need to make a choice when equipping your character for whatever situation whether to focus on extra damage or defense.
If one of my players tried to use two weapon fighting with a shield, I would probably rule against it.
They explicitly say that putting a shield on or off is the utilize action. (Presumably it's strapped to your arm)
RAW, you can use light/nick or dual wielder to get extra attacks by weapon swapping while using a shield. I can't say whether it's what they wanted, an unforeseen side effect of giving flexible enough rules for what they wanted, or a foreseen side effect that they didn't think they could prevent without making things too complex. (I'm not particularly concerned about it, in any event. I expect people who want to dual wield will actually dual wield, and people who don't, won't. Weapon swapping tricks are mostly going to be in stunt builds.)
If putting on a shield takes the utilize action, then how does light/nick/dual wielder make you able to able to switch out a shield?
Not asking derisively, I just actually don't see it. Like, light/nick/dual wielder lets you take extra attacks as part of an attack action and your bonus action, that doesn't leave you with an action to swap a shield in or out unless you action surge or have Haste, right?
You don't need to switch out the shield at all. It's the Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder that enables keeping a shield in one hand at all times. That, and the lack of any relevant description that clearly states you need a weapon in each hand for any of these relevant abilities. My post #28 earlier outlines one way you can draw/stow a weapon twice to do this, RAW.
RAI? Idk.
(ETA, this all based on another discussion linked earlier in this post)
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
The reason it works is that none of the two-weapon fighting stuff actually requires two-handed wielding. Which is definitely odd, but it is true.
If they're both Nick weapons, you can just keep doing this every round. You can't fully take advantage of DW's non-light weapon ability unless you have extra attack as well, and maybe not even then. (Can't be bothered to work through it.)
Right, and even if you use one light nick and swap with one light vex, you can still do it, but the weapon in your hand at the start of each round will alternate. So, you have to keep track of when you have vex advantage.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
If you're alternating nick and vex, and only have one base attack, you're going to lose your nick attack half the time, because the DW bonus-action attack cannot trigger the nick attack. (It must be part of the attack action.)
Yes, I think prior to extra attack at Level 5, or for classes that don't get extra attack, you would want to swap two Nick weapons to be able to hold a shield and trigger the non-bonus-action Nick mastery extra attack, every turn. You'd still need Quick Draw from Dual Wielder feat to switch to a different Light weapon in the same hand, as per Light weapon property.
With Extra Attack at Level 5, holding a shield in one hand can be justified either by doing the 1 stow and 1 draw with two separate Nick weapons, using the Quick Draw feature of Dual Wielder. You could also mix in a Vex weapon, like so:
Turn 1:
1) First attack with Light weapon and shortsword mastery. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage.
2) Extra attack (at level 5) with shortsword at advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature. Vex grants advantage on next attack, if same creature. Enhanced Dual Wielding (EDW from Dual Wielder feat at level 4) grants bonus action attack. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage.
3) Stow shortsword, draw scimitar. 2x draw/stow allowed from Quick Draw property of DW feat. Extra attack with different Light Weapon than attack #1, as per Light property. Scimitar mastery Nick allows this attack without using bonus action, but with a different weapon than attack #1. At advantage from previous Vex attack. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
4) Bonus action attack with scimitar from EDW property of DW, with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack #2. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
Turn 2:
1) First attack with Light weapon and scimitar mastery. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage. Triggers Nick mastery extra attack without bonus action.
2) Extra attack (at level 5) with scimitar. EDW grants bonus action attack. Regular attack adds ability modifier to damage.
3) Stow scimitar, draw shortsword using QD of DW feat. Extra attack with different Light Weapon than attack #1 as per Light property. Scimitar mastery Nick allows this attack without using bonus action, but with a different weapon than attack 1. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
4) Bonus action attack with shortsword from EDW property of DW, with a different non-two-handed melee weapon than attack #2. At advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature. Vex grants advantage on next attack, to same creature. Two Weapon Fighting adds ability modifier to damage of any extra attack from Light property.
Turn 3: Same as Turn 1, but 1st attack is at advantage from previous Vex attack, if same creature.
The only grey area is that Nick doesn't specify whether the Nick mastery weapon must be used in the triggering attack for the extra attack, or if the Nick mastery weapon is used in the resulting extra attack. Or either. Or both. Assuming either one makes it possible to swap in a Vex weapon for two of the four attacks.
Otherwise, you'd have to use two Nick weapons to maintain a shield in the other hand and get all 4 attacks. The alternative is that you can always hold a Nick Light weapon in one hand and a Vex Light weapon in the other hand, without a shield, then there is no question to mix in the Vex advantage attacks.
The summary is that Dual Wielder is necessary for both the bonus action attack (Enhanced Dual Wielder) and to stow/draw weapons in order to hold a shield in the other hand (Quick Draw). Combined with the +1 STR or DEX, this is a very powerful general feat when combined with TWF and Nick Mastery.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
You don't need it, and also I don't think it works the way you think.
You don't because you can draw or stow on every attack as part of the attack action, plus you have a single additional object interaction
At the end of step 2, you can stow the shortsword, then draw the scimitar at the start of step 3. The Nick attack is explicitly part of your attack action, so you get a free weapon interaction with it.
As for the other part, I see how you read it that way, and it's not fully clear, because English is bad at this, but:
My read of this is it gives you one act that applies to two weapons. It could've been phrased clearer, but it's tricky to get this right.
In looking more about weapon swaps, here is the description in the Attack action:
And from Quick Draw of Dual Wielder:
"When you make an attack as part of this action" seems to imply that both your regular attack and extra attack (level 5) would each get its own equip/draw or unequip/stow?
And, if you have Dual Wielder, Quick Draw lets you manipulate two weapons each time?
So, with a shield in one hand, after attack #2 in my example, you could stow/unequip weapon M1 and draw/equip weapon M2, as in my example above. If the level 5 extra attack also grants the same, then you can also stow one weapon and draw another before attack #1, making it possible to simply repeat the same order each turn.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
And also your Nick attack.
Yes, but as I explained above, you get either a draw of two or a stow of two, not one of each.
Probably. I'm sure it's what they meant, I'm not 100% sure they managed to say it unambiguously.
Hi,
I'm trying to understand the implication of the TWFS + nick, compared to the basic two-weapon fighting.
The wording in the book or your answer are confusing, and I'm not a native english speaker.
For the baseline, let's assume a lvl 6 bladesinger, so no mastery, no fighting style, just an extra attack, and two light weapon (assuming scimitar+short sword, and ignoring booming blade or shadow blade)
He will be able to make 1 attack with bonus damage, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack without bonus damage. (NB : Y is the ability modifier for damage)
Damage wise : 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y / 1D6.
Do you agree ?
Now let's add a fighter lvl to this wizard, bringing nick mastery and TWFS, but no dual wielder feat
He will be able to make 1 attack with both weapons thanks to nick, 1 extra attack with bonus damage, and 1 bonus action attack with bonus damage thanks to the fighting style.
Damage wise : 2*(1D6+Y) / 1D6+Y / 1D6+Y
Do you agree ?
Now what does the dual wielder feat bring to this ? I understand that it remove the requirement of a light for one weapon, but then you lose the ability to attack on the bonus action.
Do you agree ?
Thanks for correcting me if necessary.
Yes.
No. If you use Nick to make the Light property's attack as part of the Attack action, you can no longer use your bonus action to make that attack.
No. Letting you make an attack with your bonus action when you've already made the Light property's bonus attack with the Nick property is precisely what the Dual Wielder feat brings to the situation.
You're welcome. Hope this helps!
Incidentally, the way to fix the light weapon property to actually produce dual wielding is (italics are new text, strikeouts are deleted text)
Net word count increase: 8.
The rules are kind of confusing if you don't speak Rules, and they're spread over four different places, which does not help.
You're correct so far.
This is incorrect. You never attack with both weapons in the game mechanics. Each attack is separate. You also don't get the bonus action attack in your scenario.
Here's the breakdown:
First of all, the extra attack from being leveled up is not needed, and just potentially confuses the issue.
Secondly, the Attack action and an attack are not the same thing. You take an Attack action during your turn, and it lets you take one or more attacks. You can make an attack for other reasons (such as an opportunity attack), but it is not the Attack action.
We assume a character with only one base attack..Having extra attacks doesn't change anything.
Light weapon property:
Everyone gets this. When you attack with a Light weapon as part of your Attack action, it triggers, and you have the ability to take an attack with another Light weapon as a bonus action. The bonus action attack does not get your stat bonus.
Dual Wielder feat:
If you have this, when you make an attack with a Light weapon as part of your Attack action, it triggers, and you have the ability to take an attack with another weapon (with some restrictions on the weapon) as a bonus action. The bonus action attack does not get your stat bonus.
Important: The Dual Wielder bonus attack and the Light bonus attack are not the same thing. If you have DW, and attack with a Light weapon, you have two available bonus action attacks. You can only use one because you have only one bonus action.
Nick weapon mastery:
This modifies the rules of the Light weapon property. Now, instead of being a bonus action, the additional attack you get from attacking with a Light weapon is made as part of the same Attack action, and does not use up your bonus action. All the other restrictions still apply, and you are also forbidden from taking more than one additional attack from the Light property per turn.
This does not alter the Dual Wielder bonus action attack in any way.
So:
Just Light: Normal light attack, bonus action attack with different light weapon
Light with DW: Normal light attack, bonus action attack with different, possibly heavier weapon
Light with Nick: Normal light attack, additional attack with different light weapon as part of the same action. Bonus action unused.
Light, Nick, and DW: Normal light attack, additional attack with different light weapon as part of the same action, and bonus action attack with possibly heavier weapon that cannot be the first-used weapon
In all the above cases, the attacks beyond the initial one do not get the stat bonus.
Two-weapon Fighting Style: This allows you to add your stat bonus to the damage of the attacks you get from both Light (with or without Nick) and Dual Wielder.
That is the basics of it.
We must assume they meant to do things this way. It's too deliberately constructed.
I don't know why they decided to do it that way, and it's only the third-most-confusing part of the rules.