I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
Pathfinder is looking very good considering how many fumbles wizbro has had in the last couple of years, I still hold out hoping they will correct them, but I am on a buying freeze until they do or I get ready to move on. The ball is in their court, and I am in no rush, until DDB becomes more trouble than it is worth and it is getting close to that point for me. I hope they resolve the mixing of rulesets in the character creation tools soon as that is really the biggest suck for me and my games. The only real solution is to go back to paper and pencil, and at that point why bother with D&D at all?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
You are missing the point and it is you who have not really thought things through. pdfs of Wizards' publications are out there but people still pay money for the physical books or for access to their contents here. You even mention how other publishers don't have the sales figures to match. Yeah. Because people are happy to pay Wizards money. Even though they needn't. So what are Wizards afraid of? You are essentially negating your own point. You believe Wizards can't trust their own customers. But then wave around their sales figures as evidence of how well they are doing compared to their competitors. Knowing no one even need pay money for their game. So which is it? A multibillion dollar company just can't bear the thought that they might lose a few sales if a pdf is shared between a group no differently than a physical book might be? Or they have nothing to worry about?
You do understand that many in the hobby who own books still like to have pdfs of them? Every game product I own beyond D&D I own physically but I still have pdfs of these that have been provided free with my purchases and want these pdfs so I can perhaps view them on my phone or some other device if I am running a game somewhere other than at home given I can't take every needed resource with me. We are talking three to four shelves of game products. Not every player of D&D uses Beyond. And not every DM is going to run a game at his or her house with books within reach. It would make the lives of many a DM easier if Wizards sold pdfs. Like they do of earlier editions. Those are also floating around online. And yet people buy them from DriveThruRPG! Wizards' fears are unfounded and profoundly irrational.
And do you honestly believe all those players on these forums who have expressed discontent because they cannot buy a pdf don't already own copies of the rules? Seriously?
I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
You are missing the point and it is you who have not really thought things through. pdfs of Wizards' publications are out there but people still pay money for the physical books or for access to their contents here. You even mention how other publishers don't have the sales figures to match. Yeah. Because people are happy to pay Wizards money. Even though they needn't. So what are Wizards afraid of? You are essentially negating your own point. You believe Wizards can't trust their own customers. But then wave around their sales figures as evidence of how well they are doing compared to their competitors. Knowing no one even need pay money for their game. So which is it? A multibillion dollar company just can't bear the thought that they might lose a few sales if a pdf is shared between a group no differently than a physical book might be? Or they have nothing to worry about?
You do understand that many in the hobby who own books still like to have pdfs of them? Every game product I own beyond D&D I own physically but I still have pdfs of these that have been provided free with my purchases and want these pdfs so I can perhaps view them on my phone or some other device if I am running a game somewhere other than at home given I can't take every needed resource with me. We are talking three to four shelves of game products. Not every player of D&D uses Beyond. And not every DM is going to run a game at his or her house with books within reach. It would make the lives of many a DM easier if Wizards sold pdfs. Like they do of earlier editions. Those are also floating around online. And yet people buy them from DriveThruRPG! Wizards' fears are unfounded and profoundly irrational.
And do you honestly believe all those players on these forums who have expressed discontent because they cannot buy a pdf don't already own copies of the rules? Seriously?
There are a lot of assertions here, but not a single thing that is supported or worth responding to. This reads like it was written by someone who learned business management and economics from the DMG.
The simple fact of the matter is that if it was an option with an ROI that would render the risks or headaches negligible, WotC would do it because they are a for-profit company with at least a dozen or more MBAs crunching the numbers with projections of sales, customer retention, and any other thing that I am not even thinking of as an outsider to the industry. They are ALREADY doing it with their other editions, so they have far better insight into the pros and cons of the practice than you or I, and have decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important.
Stop confusing your personal desire for something as a worthwhile investment for the company. If you want PDFs so badly, buy them for 5th edition once they make a 6th edition. Problem solved.
I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
Pathfinder is looking very good considering how many fumbles wizbro has had in the last couple of years, I still hold out hoping they will correct them, but I am on a buying freeze until they do or I get ready to move on. The ball is in their court, and I am in no rush, until DDB becomes more trouble than it is worth and it is getting close to that point for me. I hope they resolve the mixing of rulesets in the character creation tools soon as that is really the biggest suck for me and my games. The only real solution is to go back to paper and pencil, and at that point why bother with D&D at all?
I actually enjoy playing Pathfinder, though I admit I haven’t played more than a few games. Most of my friends are 5e players. I love the game for the crunch and it is like a palette cleaner after an extended time playing 5e. I also play Mythcraft and Swords and Wizardry (OSR) for the same reason, and Dungeoneers when I want to do the exact opposite of crunch. All give PDFs with their physical sales.
But the big problem I find with all of these is finding interested players and when you can, it is challenging because some people turn out to be weirdos (a problem with playing with randoms in any ttrpg, not just smaller games. It just seems like a louder problem with the smaller games because of the small number of players available). My own friends often shrug, asking “why not just play D&D?”… even when I offer to GM!
I would love to say otherwise because these are all fun games, but these other games really just don’t have the base that D&D enjoys.
I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
Pathfinder is looking very good considering how many fumbles wizbro has had in the last couple of years, I still hold out hoping they will correct them, but I am on a buying freeze until they do or I get ready to move on. The ball is in their court, and I am in no rush, until DDB becomes more trouble than it is worth and it is getting close to that point for me. I hope they resolve the mixing of rulesets in the character creation tools soon as that is really the biggest suck for me and my games. The only real solution is to go back to paper and pencil, and at that point why bother with D&D at all?
I actually enjoy playing it, though I admit I haven’t played more than a few games. Most of my friends are 5e players. I love the game for the crunch and it is like a palette cleaner after an extended time playing 5e. I also play Mythcraft and Swords and Wizardry (OSR) for the same reason, and Dungeoneers when I want to do the exact opposite of crunch. All give PDFs with their physical sales.
But the big problem I find with all of these is finding interested players and when you can, it is challenging because some people turn out to be weirdos (a problem with playing with randoms in any ttrpg, not just smaller games. It just seems like a louder problem with the smaller games because of the small number of players available). My own friends often shrug, asking “why not just play D&D?”… even when I offer to GM!
I would love to say otherwise because these are all fun games, but these other games really just don’t have the base that D&D enjoys.
Players are not the problem we are all friends and play in person, and they were loving 5e, but since the new rules they are confused and are loosing interest spending more time figuring out why this don't work as expected, and links to thing that aren't what the learned, they are the ones wanting to try something different rather than weed through the mishmash of duplicate spells and new rules on the sheets. I would rather we stay with 5e, but more than that I would rather play a game with my friends than concern myself with sunk costs in a platform that is just making the game harder to play than it needs to be.
Players are not the problem we are all friends and play in person, and they were loving 5e, but since the new rules they are confused and are loosing interest spending more time figuring out why this don't work as expected, and links to thing that aren't what the learned, they are the ones wanting to try something different rather than weed through the mishmash of duplicate spells and new rules on the sheets. I would rather we stay with 5e, but more than that I would rather play a game with my friends than concern myself with sunk costs in a platform that is just making the game harder to play than it needs to be.
I understand completely. For me, I love 5e 2014 despite its problems. I do think 2024 is an overall improvement to the classes and the rules that I have read as well clear up and patch many problems that existed in 2014. However, I don't think anyone would say that the functionality of DDB is stellar right now. You and I do have different thresholds on what we will tolerate though, but maybe that is because I expected the launch to be a disaster lol. When they were going to simply errata those old spells and had it set execute two weeks from early release, they were forced to scramble for an inelegant, ugly solution. I do give them some grace there because of the time table they had to work with. For all three of my games that I am currently playing in, there is no intention to move to 2024 yet, meaning I have the same spell issue but I don't really see this as a big deal becuase the Legacy tag helps me immediately know which version to choose. The Rules and terms that pop up now reference the new rules but they also have Legacy rules included in the popup. For me, that works just fine but that doesn't work for everyone.
Players are not the problem we are all friends and play in person, and they were loving 5e, but since the new rules they are confused and are loosing interest spending more time figuring out why this don't work as expected, and links to thing that aren't what the learned, they are the ones wanting to try something different rather than weed through the mishmash of duplicate spells and new rules on the sheets. I would rather we stay with 5e, but more than that I would rather play a game with my friends than concern myself with sunk costs in a platform that is just making the game harder to play than it needs to be.
I understand completely. For me, I love 5e 2014 despite its problems. I do think 2024 is an overall improvement to the classes and the rules that I have read as well clear up and patch many problems that existed in 2014. However, I don't think anyone would say that the functionality of DDB is stellar right now. You and I do have different thresholds on what we will tolerate though, but maybe that is because I expected the launch to be a disaster lol. When they were going to simply errata those old spells and had it set execute two weeks from early release, they were forced to scramble for an inelegant, ugly solution. I do give them some grace there because of the time table they had to work with. For all three of my games that I am currently playing in, there is no intention to move to 2024 yet, meaning I have the same spell issue but I don't really see this as a big deal becuase the Legacy tag helps me immediately know which version to choose. The Rules and terms that pop up now reference the new rules but they also have Legacy rules included in the popup. For me, that works just fine but that doesn't work for everyone.
I do understand they need time to get things sorted out, but they have had complete control and really don't seem to understand their customers all that well at least the ones that were happy. I just hope the get it sorted before my groups give up and switch. That is a downside to the players not buying anything to play, nothing for them to lose if they switch. They are definitely not going to buy anything here at this point, so they will be buying whatever we switch too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I didn't miss your point just because I don't think you have really organized your thoughts on the matter very well. In the same figurative breath, you have questioned why WotC doesn't trust their customers AND offered up the exact reason why they shouldn't.
Other publishers don't have the luxury of being able to choose what formats to use; they need every bit of exposure they can get. Even Pathfinder, the next largest TTRPG, does not have the sales to match D&D, even with PDFs included in their online sales. WotC can choose to be more protective of their bottom line and make their product less accessible and the numbers show that they can get away with it.
You are missing the point and it is you who have not really thought things through. pdfs of Wizards' publications are out there but people still pay money for the physical books or for access to their contents here. You even mention how other publishers don't have the sales figures to match. Yeah. Because people are happy to pay Wizards money. Even though they needn't. So what are Wizards afraid of? You are essentially negating your own point. You believe Wizards can't trust their own customers. But then wave around their sales figures as evidence of how well they are doing compared to their competitors. Knowing no one even need pay money for their game. So which is it? A multibillion dollar company just can't bear the thought that they might lose a few sales if a pdf is shared between a group no differently than a physical book might be? Or they have nothing to worry about?
You do understand that many in the hobby who own books still like to have pdfs of them? Every game product I own beyond D&D I own physically but I still have pdfs of these that have been provided free with my purchases and want these pdfs so I can perhaps view them on my phone or some other device if I am running a game somewhere other than at home given I can't take every needed resource with me. We are talking three to four shelves of game products. Not every player of D&D uses Beyond. And not every DM is going to run a game at his or her house with books within reach. It would make the lives of many a DM easier if Wizards sold pdfs. Like they do of earlier editions. Those are also floating around online. And yet people buy them from DriveThruRPG! Wizards' fears are unfounded and profoundly irrational.
And do you honestly believe all those players on these forums who have expressed discontent because they cannot buy a pdf don't already own copies of the rules? Seriously?
There are a lot of assertions here, but not a single thing that is supported or worth responding to. This reads like it was written by someone who learned business management and economics from the DMG.
The simple fact of the matter is that if it was an option with an ROI that would render the risks or headaches negligible, WotC would do it because they are a for-profit company with at least a dozen or more MBAs crunching the numbers with projections of sales, customer retention, and any other thing that I am not even thinking of as an outsider to the industry. They are ALREADY doing it with their other editions, so they have far better insight into the pros and cons of the practice than you or I, and have decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important.
Stop confusing your personal desire for something as a worthwhile investment for the company. If you want PDFs so badly, buy them for 5th edition once they make a 6th edition. Problem solved.
Even your suggestion that Wizards of the Coast "has more to lose" is preposterous. D&D could fail to sell ever again and Hasbro would assuredly weather that. Smaller game publishers? These are small businesses consisting of one to a handful of employees and their very livelihoods depend on their making sales. You can repeat over and over what you believe my "assertions" read like. Yours read like someone who does not believe Wizards can make a single wrong decision. So because they have decided not to provide pdfs this decision must be infallible and you will defend it no matter how irrational their fears about these "risks" and "headaches" given pdfs are out there but they are still making around 30 million dollars a year off this IP.
Analogous with what you are saying is that a multibillion dollar supermarket chain has "more to lose" from a potential loss of sales than does a Mom & Pop grocery store standing across the street from one of its branches if both are experiencing shoplifting.
It is preposterous.
You can invoke all the rhetoric in the world about how Wizards' qualified finance team is crunching the numbers. The idea that they have "more to lose" than smaller businesses is so profoundly preposterous it is comedy. I learned business management and economics from the DMG? One could just as easily say that anyone even remotely versed in labour theory would think you learned how economics works from reading a copy of an aggressively pro-capitalist book written for people who are completely out of touch with the real world and completely lacking in empathy. Your "analysis" here shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of the "risks" and "headaches" faced by small businesses compared to those faced by major corporations.
There are a lot of assertions here, but not a single thing that is supported or worth responding to. This reads like it was written by someone who learned business management and economics from the DMG.
The simple fact of the matter is that if it was an option with an ROI that would render the risks or headaches negligible, WotC would do it because they are a for-profit company with at least a dozen or more MBAs crunching the numbers with projections of sales, customer retention, and any other thing that I am not even thinking of as an outsider to the industry. They are ALREADY doing it with their other editions, so they have far better insight into the pros and cons of the practice than you or I, and have decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important.
Stop confusing your personal desire for something as a worthwhile investment for the company. If you want PDFs so badly, buy them for 5th edition once they make a 6th edition. Problem solved.
Even your suggestion that Wizards of the Coast "has more to lose" is preposterous. D&D could fail to sell ever again and Hasbro would assuredly weather that. Smaller game publishers? These are small businesses consisting of one to a handful of employees and their very livelihoods depend on their making sales. You can repeat over and over what you believe my "assertions" read like. Yours read like someone who does not believe Wizards can make a single wrong decision. So because they have decided not to provide pdfs this decision is infallible and you will defend it no matter how irrational their fears about these "risks" and "headaches" given pdfs are out there but they are still making around 30 million dollars a year off this IP.
You have lost the thread of this conversation, friend. I did not say WotC has more to lose. See what I mean about organization of thought? You aren't even tracking what I am saying. Try again.
I do understand they need time to get things sorted out, but they have had complete control and really don't seem to understand their customers all that well at least the ones that were happy. I just hope the get it sorted before my groups give up and switch. That is a downside to the players not buying anything to play, nothing for them to lose if they switch. They are definitely not going to buy anything here at this point, so they will be buying whatever we switch too.
Nail on the head there. I think this perfectly explains the last few weeks, even the ones who were initially happen to give up the Legacy spells for the errata. Now the ones who bought 2014 rules and could not afford to get the 2024 rules are up a creek, the people who wanted the 2014 rules have a mess, and the ones who bought the 2024 rules have an incomplete implementation. No one wins, which could have been avoided had WotC had even half an inkling of what their customers want and a PR team worth a spit to sell people on 2024 errata.
WotC has no idea who their customers are, really, and that does cost them money. To tie it back to the topic, where it concerns PDFs though, WotC knows how their customers will spend their money and on what, which is Enhanced Digital (the used term, even if it is a bit of a misnomer right now) without PDFs.
There are a lot of assertions here, but not a single thing that is supported or worth responding to. This reads like it was written by someone who learned business management and economics from the DMG.
The simple fact of the matter is that if it was an option with an ROI that would render the risks or headaches negligible, WotC would do it because they are a for-profit company with at least a dozen or more MBAs crunching the numbers with projections of sales, customer retention, and any other thing that I am not even thinking of as an outsider to the industry. They are ALREADY doing it with their other editions, so they have far better insight into the pros and cons of the practice than you or I, and have decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important.
Stop confusing your personal desire for something as a worthwhile investment for the company. If you want PDFs so badly, buy them for 5th edition once they make a 6th edition. Problem solved.
Even your suggestion that Wizards of the Coast "has more to lose" is preposterous. D&D could fail to sell ever again and Hasbro would assuredly weather that. Smaller game publishers? These are small businesses consisting of one to a handful of employees and their very livelihoods depend on their making sales. You can repeat over and over what you believe my "assertions" read like. Yours read like someone who does not believe Wizards can make a single wrong decision. So because they have decided not to provide pdfs this decision is infallible and you will defend it no matter how irrational their fears about these "risks" and "headaches" given pdfs are out there but they are still making around 30 million dollars a year off this IP.
You have lost the thread of this conversation, friend. I did not say WotC has more to lose. See what I mean about organization of thought? You aren't even tracking what I am saying. Try again.
My mistake. You are just acting as if Wizards have more to lose. Hence why you figure their sales figures signify at all in a conversation about how their competitors provide pdfs for free with any purchase of a physical book while they simply cannot fathom taking such a risk. This is getting off topic. So I am going to go and read the DMG. You can keep reading that book on business management and economics you're reading that sounds as if it must have bee written by Shapiro or someone else totally gung-ho for corporate capitalism.
You have lost the thread of this conversation, friend. I did not say WotC has more to lose. See what I mean about organization of thought? You aren't even tracking what I am saying. Try again.
My mistake. You are just acting as if Wizards have more to lose. Hence why you figure their sales figures signify at all in a conversation about how their competitors provide pdfs for free with any purchase of a physical book while they simply cannot fathom taking such a risk. This is getting off topic. So I am going to go and read the DMG. You can keep reading that book on business management and economics you're reading that sounds as if it must have bee written by Shapiro or someone else totally gung-ho for corporate capitalism.
The only way I am 'acting like' is like someone who recognizes that WotC has a better bead on their money and product than any armchair expert on these forums does, and that those bellowing for PDFs have confused personal interests for reasoned business decisions.
'Losing' something never factored into anything I was stating or implying. It certainly could by possible, but that was NOT my point. I will remind you that you were the one who said I was missing some poorly defined point when you have been struggling to grasp mine this entire time. If you cannot grasp my very uncomplicated arguments, how can I in good conscience assume you have thought this topic through? I said that WotC has decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important. This could be as simple as willing to walk away from some PDF sales to drive players to a site where they get FREE information on how players use their product. A product which also drives them to the digital purchases here. This actually makes a lot of sense. Even if die-hard PDF buyers won't buy here, many do. This seems to be a net win for WotC.
Acknowledging the capitalistic system we must survive in is not being an advocate for it, comrade.
You have lost the thread of this conversation, friend. I did not say WotC has more to lose. See what I mean about organization of thought? You aren't even tracking what I am saying. Try again.
My mistake. You are just acting as if Wizards have more to lose. Hence why you figure their sales figures signify at all in a conversation about how their competitors provide pdfs for free with any purchase of a physical book while they simply cannot fathom taking such a risk. This is getting off topic. So I am going to go and read the DMG. You can keep reading that book on business management and economics you're reading that sounds as if it must have bee written by Shapiro or someone else totally gung-ho for corporate capitalism.
Acknowledging the capitalistic system we must survive in is not being an advocate for it, comrade.
Does your position begin and end at acknowledgment?
Tell me: If someone were explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies they support who engage in behaviors that harm the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players all the while waving around the sales figures of those big players as a sign of their disdain for smaller players in the industry who can't compete that wouldn't be that someone making excuses for those harming the environment and in turn for the capitalist system that sees those big players rationalize those harmful behaviors? That would just be that someone acknowledging how it is? Even though it is those big players they support ? And not those who are not doing their utmost best to ruin the planet?
Does your position begin and end at acknowledgment? You are making excuses for the practices of a multibillion dollar corporation for whom the bottom line matters more than anything while waving their sales figures in the faces of others as a sign of your disdain for smaller publishers in the industry who can't compete. Basically: explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies one supports who engage in behavior that harms the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players isn't making excuses for those harming the environment even though it is they you support ... The disconnect there is vast.
LOL Enhanced Digital is not harmful to the environment anymore than PDFs are, and every publisher harms the environment with their physical product. There is no ecologically-minded publisher unless you can show me where Pathfinder is printing their books on hemp paper instead of traditional, tree-harvested paper. Do you think Paizo or any other TTRPG publisher wouldn't cleanse the world of trees if it meant they could match WotC on their book sales?
It is pretty clear that you are not being serious or you are very serious, but making this conversation very unserious. I don't think there is much more to gain from continuing this conversation with you.
Does your position begin and end at acknowledgment? You are making excuses for the practices of a multibillion dollar corporation for whom the bottom line matters more than anything while waving their sales figures in the faces of others as a sign of your disdain for smaller publishers in the industry who can't compete. Basically: explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies one supports who engage in behavior that harms the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players isn't making excuses for those harming the environment even though it is they you support ... The disconnect there is vast.
LOL Enhanced Digital is not harmful to the environment anymore than PDFs are, and every publisher harms the environment with their physical product. There is no ecologically-minded publisher unless you can show me where Pathfinder is printing their books on hemp paper instead of traditional, tree-harvested paper. Do you think Paizo or any other TTRPG publisher wouldn't cleanse the world of trees if it meant they could match WotC on their book sales?
It is pretty clear that you are not being serious or you are very serious, but making this conversation very unserious. I don't think there is much more to gain from continuing this conversation with you.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I am not saying anything about the environment in the context of whether or not pdfs might be provided.
I am giving you an analogy.
If someone were explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies they support who engage in behaviors that harm the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players all the while waving around the sales figures of those big players as a sign of their disdain for smaller players in the industry who can't compete that wouldn't be that someone making excuses for those harming the environment and in turn for the capitalist system that sees those big players rationalize those harmful behaviors? That would just be that someone acknowledging how it is? Even though it is those big players they support ? And not those who are not doing their utmost best to ruin the planet?
You are also wrong. The carbon footprint of a pdf and of its distribution is not a fraction of what one regular user's traffic to this website would be if they use Beyond for pretty much all things D&D.
Not that that has anything to do with what I was saying in the post you responded to. You accuse me of being "unserious" but you have to completely misconstrue what I said to even accuse me of this.
Can you respond to the analogy I gave:
Are those who make excuses for big companies whose practices harm the environment—companies to whom they give support—merely "acknowledging" this system in which we live to explain why it is those big companies are doing that? Or is what they're doing much worse? Why are they supporting them? This is why serious critics of capitalism find the whole "But this is this system in which we live so you just gotta let me X and Y" to be nothing more than an excuse for one's own behavior and fakery when it comes to what the individual's real convictions are.
I do understand they need time to get things sorted out, but they have had complete control and really don't seem to understand their customers all that well at least the ones that were happy. I just hope the get it sorted before my groups give up and switch. That is a downside to the players not buying anything to play, nothing for them to lose if they switch. They are definitely not going to buy anything here at this point, so they will be buying whatever we switch too.
Nail on the head there. I think this perfectly explains the last few weeks, even the ones who were initially happen to give up the Legacy spells for the errata. Now the ones who bought 2014 rules and could not afford to get the 2024 rules are up a creek, the people who wanted the 2014 rules have a mess, and the ones who bought the 2024 rules have an incomplete implementation. No one wins, which could have been avoided had WotC had even half an inkling of what their customers want and a PR team worth a spit to sell people on 2024 errata.
WotC has no idea who their customers are, really, and that does cost them money. To tie it back to the topic, where it concerns PDFs though, WotC knows how their customers will spend their money and on what, which is Enhanced Digital (the used term, even if it is a bit of a misnomer right now) without PDFs.
Risking a few more points, I would say you and kayakingpoodle understand the issues far better than the people making the calls for the last couple/few years. With anyluck they will make a correction sooner than later!
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Pathfinder is looking very good considering how many fumbles wizbro has had in the last couple of years, I still hold out hoping they will correct them, but I am on a buying freeze until they do or I get ready to move on. The ball is in their court, and I am in no rush, until DDB becomes more trouble than it is worth and it is getting close to that point for me. I hope they resolve the mixing of rulesets in the character creation tools soon as that is really the biggest suck for me and my games. The only real solution is to go back to paper and pencil, and at that point why bother with D&D at all?
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
You are missing the point and it is you who have not really thought things through. pdfs of Wizards' publications are out there but people still pay money for the physical books or for access to their contents here. You even mention how other publishers don't have the sales figures to match. Yeah. Because people are happy to pay Wizards money. Even though they needn't. So what are Wizards afraid of? You are essentially negating your own point. You believe Wizards can't trust their own customers. But then wave around their sales figures as evidence of how well they are doing compared to their competitors. Knowing no one even need pay money for their game. So which is it? A multibillion dollar company just can't bear the thought that they might lose a few sales if a pdf is shared between a group no differently than a physical book might be? Or they have nothing to worry about?
You do understand that many in the hobby who own books still like to have pdfs of them? Every game product I own beyond D&D I own physically but I still have pdfs of these that have been provided free with my purchases and want these pdfs so I can perhaps view them on my phone or some other device if I am running a game somewhere other than at home given I can't take every needed resource with me. We are talking three to four shelves of game products. Not every player of D&D uses Beyond. And not every DM is going to run a game at his or her house with books within reach. It would make the lives of many a DM easier if Wizards sold pdfs. Like they do of earlier editions. Those are also floating around online. And yet people buy them from DriveThruRPG! Wizards' fears are unfounded and profoundly irrational.
And do you honestly believe all those players on these forums who have expressed discontent because they cannot buy a pdf don't already own copies of the rules? Seriously?
There are a lot of assertions here, but not a single thing that is supported or worth responding to. This reads like it was written by someone who learned business management and economics from the DMG.
The simple fact of the matter is that if it was an option with an ROI that would render the risks or headaches negligible, WotC would do it because they are a for-profit company with at least a dozen or more MBAs crunching the numbers with projections of sales, customer retention, and any other thing that I am not even thinking of as an outsider to the industry. They are ALREADY doing it with their other editions, so they have far better insight into the pros and cons of the practice than you or I, and have decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important.
Stop confusing your personal desire for something as a worthwhile investment for the company. If you want PDFs so badly, buy them for 5th edition once they make a 6th edition. Problem solved.
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I actually enjoy playing Pathfinder, though I admit I haven’t played more than a few games. Most of my friends are 5e players. I love the game for the crunch and it is like a palette cleaner after an extended time playing 5e. I also play Mythcraft and Swords and Wizardry (OSR) for the same reason, and Dungeoneers when I want to do the exact opposite of crunch. All give PDFs with their physical sales.
But the big problem I find with all of these is finding interested players and when you can, it is challenging because some people turn out to be weirdos (a problem with playing with randoms in any ttrpg, not just smaller games. It just seems like a louder problem with the smaller games because of the small number of players available). My own friends often shrug, asking “why not just play D&D?”… even when I offer to GM!
I would love to say otherwise because these are all fun games, but these other games really just don’t have the base that D&D enjoys.
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Players are not the problem we are all friends and play in person, and they were loving 5e, but since the new rules they are confused and are loosing interest spending more time figuring out why this don't work as expected, and links to thing that aren't what the learned, they are the ones wanting to try something different rather than weed through the mishmash of duplicate spells and new rules on the sheets. I would rather we stay with 5e, but more than that I would rather play a game with my friends than concern myself with sunk costs in a platform that is just making the game harder to play than it needs to be.
.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I understand completely. For me, I love 5e 2014 despite its problems. I do think 2024 is an overall improvement to the classes and the rules that I have read as well clear up and patch many problems that existed in 2014. However, I don't think anyone would say that the functionality of DDB is stellar right now. You and I do have different thresholds on what we will tolerate though, but maybe that is because I expected the launch to be a disaster lol. When they were going to simply errata those old spells and had it set execute two weeks from early release, they were forced to scramble for an inelegant, ugly solution. I do give them some grace there because of the time table they had to work with. For all three of my games that I am currently playing in, there is no intention to move to 2024 yet, meaning I have the same spell issue but I don't really see this as a big deal becuase the Legacy tag helps me immediately know which version to choose. The Rules and terms that pop up now reference the new rules but they also have Legacy rules included in the popup. For me, that works just fine but that doesn't work for everyone.
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I do understand they need time to get things sorted out, but they have had complete control and really don't seem to understand their customers all that well at least the ones that were happy. I just hope the get it sorted before my groups give up and switch. That is a downside to the players not buying anything to play, nothing for them to lose if they switch. They are definitely not going to buy anything here at this point, so they will be buying whatever we switch too.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Even your suggestion that Wizards of the Coast "has more to lose" is preposterous. D&D could fail to sell ever again and Hasbro would assuredly weather that. Smaller game publishers? These are small businesses consisting of one to a handful of employees and their very livelihoods depend on their making sales. You can repeat over and over what you believe my "assertions" read like. Yours read like someone who does not believe Wizards can make a single wrong decision. So because they have decided not to provide pdfs this decision must be infallible and you will defend it no matter how irrational their fears about these "risks" and "headaches" given pdfs are out there but they are still making around 30 million dollars a year off this IP.
Analogous with what you are saying is that a multibillion dollar supermarket chain has "more to lose" from a potential loss of sales than does a Mom & Pop grocery store standing across the street from one of its branches if both are experiencing shoplifting.
It is preposterous.
You can invoke all the rhetoric in the world about how Wizards' qualified finance team is crunching the numbers. The idea that they have "more to lose" than smaller businesses is so profoundly preposterous it is comedy. I learned business management and economics from the DMG? One could just as easily say that anyone even remotely versed in labour theory would think you learned how economics works from reading a copy of an aggressively pro-capitalist book written for people who are completely out of touch with the real world and completely lacking in empathy. Your "analysis" here shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of the "risks" and "headaches" faced by small businesses compared to those faced by major corporations.
You have lost the thread of this conversation, friend. I did not say WotC has more to lose. See what I mean about organization of thought? You aren't even tracking what I am saying. Try again.
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Nail on the head there. I think this perfectly explains the last few weeks, even the ones who were initially happen to give up the Legacy spells for the errata. Now the ones who bought 2014 rules and could not afford to get the 2024 rules are up a creek, the people who wanted the 2014 rules have a mess, and the ones who bought the 2024 rules have an incomplete implementation. No one wins, which could have been avoided had WotC had even half an inkling of what their customers want and a PR team worth a spit to sell people on 2024 errata.
WotC has no idea who their customers are, really, and that does cost them money. To tie it back to the topic, where it concerns PDFs though, WotC knows how their customers will spend their money and on what, which is Enhanced Digital (the used term, even if it is a bit of a misnomer right now) without PDFs.
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My mistake. You are just acting as if Wizards have more to lose. Hence why you figure their sales figures signify at all in a conversation about how their competitors provide pdfs for free with any purchase of a physical book while they simply cannot fathom taking such a risk. This is getting off topic. So I am going to go and read the DMG. You can keep reading that book on business management and economics you're reading that sounds as if it must have bee written by Shapiro or someone else totally gung-ho for corporate capitalism.
The only way I am 'acting like' is like someone who recognizes that WotC has a better bead on their money and product than any armchair expert on these forums does, and that those bellowing for PDFs have confused personal interests for reasoned business decisions.
'Losing' something never factored into anything I was stating or implying. It certainly could by possible, but that was NOT my point. I will remind you that you were the one who said I was missing some poorly defined point when you have been struggling to grasp mine this entire time. If you cannot grasp my very uncomplicated arguments, how can I in good conscience assume you have thought this topic through? I said that WotC has decided not to leverage PDFs for their current edition for whatever reason they have found important. This could be as simple as willing to walk away from some PDF sales to drive players to a site where they get FREE information on how players use their product. A product which also drives them to the digital purchases here. This actually makes a lot of sense. Even if die-hard PDF buyers won't buy here, many do. This seems to be a net win for WotC.
Acknowledging the capitalistic system we must survive in is not being an advocate for it, comrade.
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Does your position begin and end at acknowledgment?
Tell me: If someone were explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies they support who engage in behaviors that harm the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players all the while waving around the sales figures of those big players as a sign of their disdain for smaller players in the industry who can't compete that wouldn't be that someone making excuses for those harming the environment and in turn for the capitalist system that sees those big players rationalize those harmful behaviors? That would just be that someone acknowledging how it is? Even though it is those big players they support ? And not those who are not doing their utmost best to ruin the planet?
The disconnect there is vast.
LOL Enhanced Digital is not harmful to the environment anymore than PDFs are, and every publisher harms the environment with their physical product. There is no ecologically-minded publisher unless you can show me where Pathfinder is printing their books on hemp paper instead of traditional, tree-harvested paper. Do you think Paizo or any other TTRPG publisher wouldn't cleanse the world of trees if it meant they could match WotC on their book sales?
It is pretty clear that you are not being serious or you are very serious, but making this conversation very unserious. I don't think there is much more to gain from continuing this conversation with you.
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Don't misrepresent what I said. I am not saying anything about the environment in the context of whether or not pdfs might be provided.
I am giving you an analogy.
If someone were explaining away the unconscionable practices of companies they support who engage in behaviors that harm the environment while talking about how smaller businesses not engaging in these same practices but who are more ecologically minded just can't boast the market presence of these big players all the while waving around the sales figures of those big players as a sign of their disdain for smaller players in the industry who can't compete that wouldn't be that someone making excuses for those harming the environment and in turn for the capitalist system that sees those big players rationalize those harmful behaviors? That would just be that someone acknowledging how it is? Even though it is those big players they support ? And not those who are not doing their utmost best to ruin the planet?
You are also wrong. The carbon footprint of a pdf and of its distribution is not a fraction of what one regular user's traffic to this website would be if they use Beyond for pretty much all things D&D.
Not that that has anything to do with what I was saying in the post you responded to. You accuse me of being "unserious" but you have to completely misconstrue what I said to even accuse me of this.
Can you respond to the analogy I gave:
Are those who make excuses for big companies whose practices harm the environment—companies to whom they give support—merely "acknowledging" this system in which we live to explain why it is those big companies are doing that? Or is what they're doing much worse? Why are they supporting them? This is why serious critics of capitalism find the whole "But this is this system in which we live so you just gotta let me X and Y" to be nothing more than an excuse for one's own behavior and fakery when it comes to what the individual's real convictions are.
Risking a few more points, I would say you and kayakingpoodle understand the issues far better than the people making the calls for the last couple/few years. With anyluck they will make a correction sooner than later!