Hey all, I need some help understanding the new rules for surprise. I understand that if you have a creature "A" that is stealthed, and it beats out creature "B", then B's intitiative roll is made at disadvantage.

My question is, say you have a rogue and a paladin stealthing past some guards. The rogue easily is able to beat the guards passive perception with his stealthy ways, however, the paladin fails.

How does the intitiative play out for the Rogue, Paladin, and Guards in this instance?

Thanks all

Quote from Ahrioch >>

Hey all, I need some help understanding the new rules for surprise. I understand that if you have a creature "A" that is stealthed, and it beats out creature "B", then B's intitiative roll is made at disadvantage.

My question is, say you have a rogue and a paladin stealthing past some guards. The rogue easily is able to beat the guards passive perception with his stealthy ways, however, the paladin fails.

How does the intitiative play out for the Rogue, Paladin, and Guards in this instance?

Thanks all

In this scenario everyone would roll Initiative normally, because no one is caught unaware by the start of combat.

Edit: this is wrong, as R3sistance points out downthread, in this example the Rogue is Invisible and therefore rolls Initiative with advantage, while everyone else rolls normally.

The relevant portion of the rule for Surprise here is:

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

If a Stealth check fails in a circumstance as described above, then the guards have become aware of a possible threat and so cannot be Surprised. Personally for group Stealth, I'd suggest a collective test- everyone rolls, and if more succeed than fail the group passes. Especially for things like getting in position for an ambush or moving past guards. Otherwise dice variance makes it way too hard for a typical group to ever maintain stealth.

Quote from Ahrioch >>

Hey all, I need some help understanding the new rules for surprise. I understand that if you have a creature "A" that is stealthed, and it beats out creature "B", then B's intitiative roll is made at disadvantage.

I know this is not the question but just to point out, that since A is hiding to be benefiting from stealth, they are technically "invisible" which means that they benefit from advantage to the initiative roll if they successfully start combat from stealth against an unaware creature.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/rules-glossary#HideAction

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/rules-glossary#InvisibleCondition

This is one of those parts of rulebook layout that makes things more difficult to learn the game. Rather than having the rules about Initiative scattered around the rulebook and hoping the reader picks up on it, they should have all the rules for Initiative in one place so a new DM can just look there and know exactly how it works. Or, if that's going to pad the book too much, just put a note saying "Also, see: Invisible" so at least they know that if a character is invisible, they should reference that condition.

As things are, the book relies upon the DM and players to remember how things interact in order to know when to check. People are likely to forget (or not even pick up on the fact) that  on invisibility gives Advantage on Initiative, and there's nothing to prompt them to check it.

Quote from Linklite >>

 

This is one of those parts of rulebook layout that makes things more difficult to learn the game. Rather than having the rules about Initiative scattered around the rulebook and hoping the reader picks up on it, they should have all the rules for Initiative in one place so a new DM can just look there and know exactly how it works. Or, if that's going to pad the book too much, just put a note saying "Also, see: Invisible" so at least they know that if a character is invisible, they should reference that condition.

As things are, the book relies upon the DM and players to remember how things interact in order to know when to check. People are likely to forget (or not even pick up on the fact) that  on invisibility gives Advantage on Initiative, and there's nothing to prompt them to check it.

 

 I fully agree with you, it is not an intuitive read at all and so easy to miss. Things are too scattered around. I really wish that 2024 had not been a full release but a prototype release so WotC could send out the books/digital sales and adjust things that clearly need adjusting (see Ranger Class, partly also Paladin Class), but oh well.

There's also guidelines for Rolling Initiative in the Dungeon Master Guide that can Advantage Initiative when a character’s actions initiate combat;

Rolling Initiative: In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.

It's a game about rolling dice. If something has a lower chance of happening, it will happen less often (wow!). Meaning enemies will have their turn after you more often than not, and last I checked going first is still very powerful. Laying ambushes is maybe less powerful, but it's still useful, so it's still worth doing. Lore-wise, it makes no sense for a god-like being with insane reflexes has to skip their turn if a goblin rolls well on their stealth check

There's still the weird possibility when winning initiative while completely unaware of your ambusher, at which point you're in combat initiative without any clue of who or what for.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

There's still the weird possibility when winning initiative while completely unaware of your ambusher, at which point you're in combat initiative without any clue of who or what for.

 
That’s a meta thing where events have reached the point they’re being run in turn order but nothing has actually happened yet.

Such situation can be awkward to DM or players tough.

It also punishes a high Initiative because you effectively lose your first turn, then end up going last rather than first.

You could as easily say it’s the natural consequence of being successfully ambushed. Is it functionally any different from the 2014 Surprised condition?

I'm not convinced that the natural consequences of having faster reflexes is that it takes you longer to react.

Quote from Linklite >>

I'm not convinced that the natural consequences of having faster reflexes is that it takes you longer to react.

 
Having faster reflexes is pointless if you don’t know what to react to, though. Plus it would cut both ways- a successful player ambush would trump a high Initiative roll as well. Frankly, it’s better for actually rewarding the attempt than just giving advantage but forcing everyone into the open as soon as Initiative is rolled, since that still makes the actual benefits almost entirely luck-based.

You'd react to the ambush. If you have fast reactions, you should be going before someone that doesn't. In this case, having faster reactions is a disadvantage and nothing you've said makes it make sense to penalise you for having fast reactions.

Quote from Linklite >>

You'd react to the ambush. In this case, having faster reactions is a disadvantage and nothing you've said makes it make sense to penalise you for having fast reactions.

 
So you’re saying it makes more sense that even though a creature has successfully hidden and done nothing yet that would give away their position, having “fast reactions” allows another creature to somehow sense and attack it?

You’re also really overemphasizing how much difference a single turn makes for combat. Particularly since the hypothetical high initiative creature most likely picks up the difference on the back end, killing an attacker with lower initiative before they get a turn on a later round. A successful ambush simply beats them for the first move, which is the entire point of an ambush to begin with.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You could as easily say it’s the natural consequence of being successfully ambushed. Is it functionally any different from the 2014 Surprised condition?

 There are some differences. If you are at the top of the initiative, on your first turn;

2014: You can't move, take an action, bonus action, or reaction until that turn ends. 

2024: You can move, take action, bonus action and reaction.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

You could as easily say it’s the natural consequence of being successfully ambushed. Is it functionally any different from the 2014 Surprised condition?

 There are some differences. If you are at the top of the initiative, on your first turn;

2014: You can't move, take an action, bonus action, or reaction until that turn ends. 

2024: You can move, take action, bonus action and reaction.

 
There’s a reason I said “functionally”; yes, you can nominally act, but if you’re unaware attackers are about to act, what are you going to do that isn’t overtly a metagame exploit of knowing that initiative was rolled?

Quote from Linklite >>

It also punishes a high Initiative because you effectively lose your first turn, then end up going last rather than first.

 
I have an urge to point out that this is the normative effect of being surprised: no matter what your initiative is, if you are surprised, you will always be reacting to the surprise (at which point it means you will react before others to that surprise). 

It isn't punishing a high initiative score at all -- it is, in fact, making it more valuable since those with a high initiative will respond the quickest.

If one is surprised, you don't lose anything -- there is no first turn until after the surprise happens, no matter what the system.

That said, surprise for me doesn't come as part of initiative -- if someone is surprised, they have no initiative. It only comes into effect after the surprise.