I've been thinking about this game. Here's some unnecessary background:
The concept is based on Jerry Holkins' 'Giants and Halflings'. That game is simple and straight forward, but gives the players a notable statistical advantage, which isn't good for a fantasy casino type of setting. The rules are here: http://kyprianosdnd.wikia.com/wiki/Giants_and_Halflings
I was playing G&H with my four-year-old, which was a great opportunity to work on her adorable four-year-old math skills. I would narrate the result of the battle as the Halflings aim too high and end up in the Giant's maw or the Giant Kicks defeating the Halflings before they even attack. Good fun, but I digress. She wanted to use different dice from time to time and I'd adjust the game to Halflings and Mice or whatever. Then she wanted my three-year-old to join in. We'll play "Giants and Halflings and Mice!" she said, and this dawned on me. Now for the details...
I'm using this as a test bed so these rules will change as I roll against myself in the following posts to get a sense of how this will play. I would appreciate any input on how to simplify the game and narrow the odds. Ideally the player should have a good chance to win but still be more likely to lose their money over time.
Version 5 is good I think. But it still needs a term for matching the Troll
Version 1:
Players buy in
Players roll a d6, the "Thief"
If a player rolls a 1 he goes in the backway, avoiding the traps, and proceeds to the troll
Otherwise, The Dealer rolls 2d4, the "Traps"
If the dealer rolls 2, "eyes", the thief spots the traps and avoids them. The players proceed
If the dealer rolls 7 or 8 the traps are high, and go over the thief's head. The players proceed
If the the thief is higher than the traps he disables them, and the player proceeds
Otherwise, if the traps are higher than the thief the player loses.
The Dealer then rolls a d10 the "Troll"
(As with G&H) on a 1 the troll kicks, and the player loses.
Otherwise, at this time the player may choose to double their bet to "Dash" in order to re-roll the first thief
The player must roll a second d6 (thief) attempting to beat the troll.
If the player rolls 2 the "snake" scares the thieves away. The game is a push.
If the players total is 11 or 12 he gets the "Maw" and the thieves are eaten.
Otherwise, if the thieves are a more than the troll the player wins.
If the player matches the troll the get they win with their initial bet again (needs a name)
16 rules feels a bit too much. Maybe not though. Lets give it a try. Now that I've actually written it down I'll give it a try before I do the math for the odds (which is totally backwards)
Version 2: Replace the troll with a d12, the troll has no maw.
Version 3: Troll is d10, but still with no maw. The rule for rolling eyes on the traps is superfluous as the player will always at least match two if they don't get the back door.
Version 3 gets Math: Players have 59% chance to beat the traps
On a d10 players have 10% chance to get kicked. 7.5% chance of hitting the maw, snd 51% chance to win (given that the payout is doubled on a match) and 2.5% chance to get the snake.
If the Maw is a win .61×.59=.36 (still low)
With a 16.6% chance to match the traps, that could double your payout. (.59+.166)×.61=.46 that's very good, but doesn't account for strategy. Its probably better that way. Like counting cards in 21 only easier.
Version 4:
Players buy in
Players roll a d6, the "Thief"
If a player rolls a 1 he goes in the backway, avoiding the traps, and proceeds to the troll
Otherwise, The Dealer rolls 2d4, the "Traps"
If the dealer rolls 7 or 8 the traps are high, and go over the thief's head. The players proceed
If the the thief is higher than the traps he disables them, and the player proceeds. Otherwise, the player loses.
If the thief matches the traps the thief finds the board, and the payout doubles.
The Dealer then rolls a d10 the "Troll"
(As with G&H) On a 1 the troll kicks, and the player loses.
Otherwise, at this time the player may choose to double their bet to "Dash" and must re-roll the first thief (not against the traps)
The player must roll a second d6 (thief) attempting to beat the troll.
If the player rolls 2 the "snake" scares the thieves away. The game is a push.
If the thieves are more than the troll the player wins.
If the thieves match the troll with the same value the player wins and the payout doubles.
In this revision a player may find the hoard, dash, and match the troll. Resulting in a ×8 payout. The player is wagering 2 from the dash for a ×4 payout to become Legend (as in G&H)
Version 5:
Reintroduce the maw. Odds are too easy as are player decisions without it.
Players buy in and roll a d6, the "Thief"
If a player rolls a 1 the thief sneaks in the backway, avoiding the traps. The player proceeds to the troll
The Dealer rolls 2d4, the "Traps"
If the dealer rolls 7 or 8 the traps are high, and go over the thief's head. The players proceed
If the thief rolls higher than the traps he disables them, and the player proceeds. Otherwise, the player loses.
If the thief's roll matches the traps the thief finds the "Hoard", and the payout doubles.
The Dealer then rolls a d10 the "Troll"
(As with G&H) On a 1 the troll kicks, and the players lose.
Otherwise, at this time the player may choose to double their bet in order to "Dash". They must re-roll the first thief (not against the traps)
The player must roll a second d6 (thief) attempting to beat the troll.
If the thief rolls 2 the "snake" scares the thieves away. The game is a push.
If the thieves' total is 11 or 12 they get the "Maw" and the thieves are eaten. The player loses.
If the thieves roll more than the troll (and not in the maw) the thieves escape with the treasure. The player wins.
If the thieves match the troll with the same value they hit the "Arrow" defeating the troll. The player wins and the payout doubles.
59% is wrong for beating the traps, I was thinking of d6s for part of my math (fail) the true number is just under 70% chance to beat the traps.
There's something good here some times you can Dash and feel like you're manipulating the game doubling your bet knowing your odds are good. Other times you must Dash to have a chance or accept defeat.
Eitheway I'm losing more than I want the player to.
Maybe I should make the troll a d12 and have no maw.
Wow this is brilliant. Thanks for all the work you've done on this. 5 seems pretty good but I'll take a better look at the others when I have time. Baryk would suggest the term for winning to bring "Arrow" for when the thief shoots the troll in the eye
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zacazotal:Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
I'm fine with that. This game is hot fire. I read all the versions and I love v5. We share the same opinions about the maw. I think its important to keep it in.
That works. If the thieves hit with the Arrow the Troll is defeated and they double their take. If they beat the troll they escape with the treasure.
If the troll rolls a 10 he's blocking the exit and they have to defeat him.
What about the name? 'Treasure Troll' I first called it 'Troll Hunt' now I'm thinking 'Treasure Hunt' might be better. With the T theme maybe 'Treasure Trove' is there a T-R word for thieves? Trolls, Traps, Treasure Hunters...
I was testing this out in my discord server and everyone seemed to enjoy it. Me and the guy that plays Crow were taking turns being "dealer" and we had fun changing up the narration a bit each time to keep it fresh. Could we start advertising/playing the game in the Glory thread and just it's before our match starts?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zacazotal:Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
I did some testing on my flight yesterday. I simulated a game with four players. One of the four came out ahead before one lost the ten credits I'd given.
After seven rounds they were cumulatively down 13 and all four had taken losses. After six more rounds they were cumulatively up by 9 with only one at a loss. 5 rounds more and they were up 14 together 4 more rounds and one had lost their 10 cumulatively they were down 11 with one player up by 2.
So it's definately a gamble. The player that lost 10 was never up. The player that came out on top was down 4 at one point and up by 8 at another.
I'm gonna play it at a home game this weekend with the whole party. Probably 6 players.
Yeah all 4 players buy in and roll a thief. Then the dealer rolls the traps and collects the bets from the losers. Then he rolls the Giant and everyone who's left rolls the second thief.
So you get a 1 from one player a 2 from one and a 6 from one. Roll traps (6). 1 got the back way, 2 got the trap, 6 finds the hoard. Roll the troll (1). Everyone left gets kicked.
I've been thinking about this game. Here's some unnecessary background:
The concept is based on Jerry Holkins' 'Giants and Halflings'. That game is simple and straight forward, but gives the players a notable statistical advantage, which isn't good for a fantasy casino type of setting. The rules are here: http://kyprianosdnd.wikia.com/wiki/Giants_and_Halflings
I was playing G&H with my four-year-old, which was a great opportunity to work on her adorable four-year-old math skills. I would narrate the result of the battle as the Halflings aim too high and end up in the Giant's maw or the Giant Kicks defeating the Halflings before they even attack. Good fun, but I digress. She wanted to use different dice from time to time and I'd adjust the game to Halflings and Mice or whatever. Then she wanted my three-year-old to join in. We'll play "Giants and Halflings and Mice!" she said, and this dawned on me. Now for the details...
I'm using this as a test bed so these rules will change as I roll against myself in the following posts to get a sense of how this will play. I would appreciate any input on how to simplify the game and narrow the odds. Ideally the player should have a good chance to win but still be more likely to lose their money over time.
Version 5 is good I think. But it still needs a term for matching the Troll
Version 1:
16 rules feels a bit too much. Maybe not though. Lets give it a try. Now that I've actually written it down I'll give it a try before I do the math for the odds (which is totally backwards)
Version 2: Replace the troll with a d12, the troll has no maw.
Version 3: Troll is d10, but still with no maw. The rule for rolling eyes on the traps is superfluous as the player will always at least match two if they don't get the back door.
Version 3 gets Math: Players have 59% chance to beat the traps
On a d10 players have 10% chance to get kicked. 7.5% chance of hitting the maw, snd 51% chance to win (given that the payout is doubled on a match) and 2.5% chance to get the snake.
If the Maw is a win .61×.59=.36 (still low)
With a 16.6% chance to match the traps, that could double your payout. (.59+.166)×.61=.46 that's very good, but doesn't account for strategy. Its probably better that way. Like counting cards in 21 only easier.
Version 4:
In this revision a player may find the hoard, dash, and match the troll. Resulting in a ×8 payout. The player is wagering 2 from the dash for a ×4 payout to become Legend (as in G&H)
Version 5:
Reintroduce the maw. Odds are too easy as are player decisions without it.
59% is wrong for beating the traps, I was thinking of d6s for part of my math (fail) the true number is just under 70% chance to beat the traps.
Extended Signature
Version 1:
Funds: 20 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 4, Troll: 2, Dash! 2 payout 2
Funds: 22 bet 1
Thief: 4, Traps: 6, Troll: 9, Dash! 11 payout 2
Funds: 24 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 7, Troll: 8, lose
Funds: 23 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 5, Troll: 7, lose
Funds: 22 bet 1
Thief: 4, Traps: 2, Troll: 8, Dash! 8 lose
Funds: 21 bet 1
Thief: 3, Traps: 4, Troll: 4, Thieves: 8 lose
Funds: 20 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 5, Troll: 8, Thieves: 8 payout 1
Funds: 21 bet 1
Thief: 6, Traps: 6, Troll: 1, lose
Funds: 21 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 6, Troll: 10, lose
Funds: 19 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 4, Troll: 3, Thieves: 10 lose
Funds: 18 bet 1
Thief: 2, Traps: 5, Troll: 10, lowe
Funds: 17 bet 1
Thief: 4, Traps: 7, Troll: 2, Dash! 8 lose
Funds: 16 bet 1
Thief: 6, Traps: 2, Troll: 3, lose
Funds: 15 bet 1
Thief: 2, Traps: 5, Troll: 3, lose
Funds: 14 bet 1
Thief: 6, Traps: 3, Troll: 3, lose
Funds: 13 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 5, Troll: 1, Dash! 5 lose (correction failed to deduct 1 on last Dash)
Funds: 10 bet 1
Thief: 3, Traps: 3, Troll: 6, Dash! 8 payout 2
Funds: 12 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 5, Troll: 10, Thieves: 5 lose
Funds: 11 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 6, Troll: 6, Dash! 7 lose
Funds: 9
Extended Signature
There's something good here some times you can Dash and feel like you're manipulating the game doubling your bet knowing your odds are good. Other times you must Dash to have a chance or accept defeat.
Eitheway I'm losing more than I want the player to.
Maybe I should make the troll a d12 and have no maw.
Extended Signature
Version 2:
Funds: 9 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 5, Troll: 7, lose
Funds: 8 bet 1
Thief: 2, Traps: 3, Troll: 1, lose
Funds: 7 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 2, Troll: 7, lose
Funds: 6 bet 1
Thief: 3, Traps: 7, Troll: 6, lose
Funds: 9(5) bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 4, Troll: 1, lose
Funds: 4 bet 1
Thief: 4, Traps: 5, Troll: 5, whoops that's good Dash!
Funds: 3(5) bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 5, Troll: 11, Dash!
(Dash: 6) payout 2
Dash: 5 payout 2
Funds: 7 bet 1
Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 11, Dash! 10 payout 2
Funds: 9 bet 1
Thief: 4, Traps: 5, Troll: 9, lose
Funds: 8 bet 1
Thief: 3, Traps: 4, Troll: 11, Thieves: 10 lose
Funds: 7 bet 1
Thief: 1, Traps: 6, Troll: 2, lose
Funds: 6 bet 1
Thief: 5, Traps: 6, Troll: 5, Dash! 5
Funds: 5(4) bet 1
Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 4, Thieves: 7
Funds: 3
Extended Signature
still harsh I think. I should keep the d10 but with no maw.
Extended Signature
Version 4:
Funds 20 Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 4
Dash! 4 (a bit less strategic knowing I can't lose in the maw...) Win payout 1
Funds 21 Thief: 3, Traps: 5, Troll: 4
Thieves: 9 Win payout 1
Funds 22 Thief: 1, Traps: 6, Troll: 6
Thieves: 12 (no reason to roll the win is assured, though I could dash to double...) Win payout 1
Funds 23 Thief: 6, Traps: 6, Troll: 5
Thieves: 11 Win payout 1
Funds 24 Thief: 5, Traps: 7, Troll: 2
Hoard! Dash! 6 Payout 4
Funds 28 Thief: 3, Traps: 6, Troll: 6
Thieves: 7 (I couldn't beat the traps earlier to save my life.) Win payout 1
Funds 29 Thief: 6, Traps: 4, Troll: 5
Hoard! Must Dash! 7 (I can't believe it.) Win payout 4
Funds 33 Thief: 3, Traps: 5, Troll: 2
Dash! 8 lose×2
Funds 31 Thief: 3, Traps: 2, Troll: 7
Dash! 7 Win payout 2
Funds 33 Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 10
Must Dash! 8 lose ×2
Funds 31 Thief: 3, Traps: 6, Troll: 9
Lose
Funds 30 Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 2
Dash! 7 (risk the sure win for the favorable odds) Win payout 2
Funds 32 Thief: 2, Traps: 4, Troll: 4
Lose
Funds 31 Thief: 4, Traps: 3, Troll: 7
Lose
Funds 30 Thief: 6, Traps: 5, Troll: 3
Lose
Funds 29 Thief: 4, Traps: 5, Troll: 4
Dash! 3 Match! payout 4
Funds 33 Thief: 5, Traps: 7, Troll: 7
Thieves 8 Win payout 1
Funds 34 Thief: 2, Traps: 6, Troll: 9
Hoard! Dash! 5 Win payout 4
Funds 38
Too easy with strategic choices. The maw is better, but the Hoard is a big bonus and common
Extended Signature
Version 5:
Funds 20 Thief: 6, Traps: 7, Troll: 4
Lose
Funds 19 Thief: 4, Traps: 2, Troll: 4
Lose
Funds 18 Thief: 1, Traps: 8, Troll: 10
Thieves: 7 that's a big troll... Lose
Funds 20(17) Thief: 1, Traps: 8, Troll: 3
Lose... The worst thieves
Funds 20(16) Thief: 6, Traps: 4, Troll: 7
Thieves: 9 another big troll
Funds 15 Thief: 4, Traps: 4, Troll: 10
Thieves: 10 in the maw. Lose
Funds 14 Thief: 2, Traps: 4, Troll: 6
Lose
Funds 13 Thief: 4, Traps: 5, Troll: 5
Definately Dash! 9 win ×2
Funds 14(15) Thief: 5, Traps: 4, Troll: 9
Lose
Funds 13(14) Thief: 5, Traps: 6, Troll: 6
Must Dash! 5 Lose ×2
Funds 12 Thief: 6, Traps: 5, Troll: 3
Thieves: 9 the worst troll. Lose
Funds 11 Thief: 4, Traps: 6, Troll: 6
Dash! 9 forgot about the maw. Strat fail. Lose ×2
Funds 10(9) Thief: 3, Traps: 5, Troll: 5
Lose
Funds 9(8) Thief: 1, Traps: 6, Troll: 3
Must Dash! 6 Lose ×2
Funds 6 Thief: 5, Traps: 8, Troll: 7
Must Dash 7 Lose ×2 uncooperative dice don't like the testing
Funds 4 Thief: 3, Traps: 3, Troll: 6
Lose
Funds 3 Thief: 2, Traps: 3, Troll: 6
Dash! Away from that 6 3 Lose ×2
Funds 1 Thief: 4, Traps: 8, Troll: 9
Dash! 7
Funds -1 so this is why I don't do Vegas even testing is bad.
Funds -1 Thief: 4, Traps: 3, Troll: 4
Must Dash! 8 lose ×2
Funds -3 Thief: 1, Traps: 5, Troll: 9
Lose
Funds -4 Thief: 6, Traps: 7, Troll: 10
Dash! 5 Lose ×2
Funds -6 Thief: 5, Traps: 6, Troll: 6
Hoard! dash! 8 lose ×2
Funds -8 Thief: 5, Traps: 4, Troll: 10
Lose
Funds -9 Thief: 5, Traps: 4, Troll: 9
Dash! Risk the sure win 7 win ×2
Funds -7 Thief: 5, Traps: 6, Troll: 2
Must Dash 11 win ×2
Funds -5 Thief: 3, Traps: 5, Troll: 5
Lose
Funds -6 Thief: 6, Traps: 6, Troll: 8
Dash for favorable odds 9 Win ×2
Funds -4 Thief: 5, Traps: 4, Troll: 10
Lose
Funds -5 Thief: 2, Traps: 3, Troll: 8
Dash odds 6 the maw! Lose ×2
Funds -7 Thief: 2, Traps: 7, Troll: 3
Lose
Funds -8 Thief: 1, Traps: 3, Troll: 5
lose
Funds -7(-9) Thief: 5, Traps: 5, Troll: 7
Dash 6 Win ×2
Funds -7(-5) Thief: 6, Traps: 5, Troll: 5
Hoard! Dash! 8 win ×4
Funds -1 Thief: 4, Traps: 7, Troll: 5
Dash! 5 match! Win×2
Funds 1 Thief: 4, Traps: 8, Troll: 8
lose
Funds -7(0) Thief: 3, Traps: 5, Troll: 5
Dash! 8 win!
Funds 0 Thief: 4, Traps: 5, Troll: 10
Kick! Lose
Funds -7(-1) Thief: 5, Traps: 8, Troll: 9
Lose
Funds -2 Thief: 5, Traps: 6, Troll: 4
Dash! 10 win ×2
Funds 0 Thief: 6, Traps: 5, Troll: 8
Hoard! Dash! 7 win ×4
Funds 4 Thief: 3, Traps: 2, Troll: 8
Thieves: 9 lose
Funds 3 Thief: 4, Traps: 3, Troll: 3
Dash! 8 win ×2
Funds 5
Extended Signature
Wow this is brilliant. Thanks for all the work you've done on this. 5 seems pretty good but I'll take a better look at the others when I have time. Baryk would suggest the term for winning to bring "Arrow" for when the thief shoots the troll in the eye
Zacazotal: Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
I'm fine with that. This game is hot fire. I read all the versions and I love v5. We share the same opinions about the maw. I think its important to keep it in.
I got alot a doods
That works. If the thieves hit with the Arrow the Troll is defeated and they double their take. If they beat the troll they escape with the treasure.
If the troll rolls a 10 he's blocking the exit and they have to defeat him.
What about the name? 'Treasure Troll' I first called it 'Troll Hunt' now I'm thinking 'Treasure Hunt' might be better. With the T theme maybe 'Treasure Trove' is there a T-R word for thieves? Trolls, Traps, Treasure Hunters...
Allow alliteration always
Extended Signature
Hmm joining I can think of at the moment. I like the way Treasure Troll sounds
Zacazotal: Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
Or Tricker something. Trickster's Treasure? Trickster trap?
Zacazotal: Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
Trap Blitz, Troll Heist, Dash 4 Cash?
I got alot a doods
I was testing this out in my discord server and everyone seemed to enjoy it. Me and the guy that plays Crow were taking turns being "dealer" and we had fun changing up the narration a bit each time to keep it fresh. Could we start advertising/playing the game in the Glory thread and just it's before our match starts?
Zacazotal: Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
I did some testing on my flight yesterday. I simulated a game with four players. One of the four came out ahead before one lost the ten credits I'd given.
After seven rounds they were cumulatively down 13 and all four had taken losses. After six more rounds they were cumulatively up by 9 with only one at a loss. 5 rounds more and they were up 14 together 4 more rounds and one had lost their 10 cumulatively they were down 11 with one player up by 2.
So it's definately a gamble. The player that lost 10 was never up. The player that came out on top was down 4 at one point and up by 8 at another.
I'm gonna play it at a home game this weekend with the whole party. Probably 6 players.
Extended Signature
With multiple players at the table, would everyone be trying to beat the same trap and troll rolls?
Zacazotal: Level 3 Cleric of Kukulkan | Baryk Greycastle: Level 11 Tricky Sharpshooter (7W/5L) | Parabolus: Level 11 Warlock of the Stars (9W/2L)
DM: Tomb of Annihilation- Aftermath / Dungeon Crawl Classics- People of the Pit
Yeah all 4 players buy in and roll a thief. Then the dealer rolls the traps and collects the bets from the losers. Then he rolls the Giant and everyone who's left rolls the second thief.
So you get a 1 from one player a 2 from one and a 6 from one. Roll traps (6). 1 got the back way, 2 got the trap, 6 finds the hoard. Roll the troll (1). Everyone left gets kicked.
Extended Signature
Of course.
Extended Signature