You would have Psionic abilities that you would choose at 1st level that you could pick Psi Point upgrades at certain levels. Pick a subclass at level 3 which gives you different abilities only available to that subclass.
Telekinesis: (choose at 1st level)
Base Ability- As an action you can lift an item or creature that you can see within 60 ft of you. You can lift a weight up to 10x your INT modifier or a medium or smaller creature. If you target a creature they must make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against your Psionic DC or be moved up to 20 ft.
Psi Point Upgrades: (choose at various levels)
Psionic Leverage- When you use your telekinesis ability you can spend psi points to increase the amount you can lift.
1 psi point = Additional 100lbs per psi point spend (Number could be tweaked just an example)
2 psi point= One larger size creature (Maximum of Huge)
Psionic Press
You can attempt to destroy the object or creature you are holding via telekinesis. While using the Telekinesis action you can spend Psi points to inflict damage on the target of the ability.
2 psi points = 1d10 + INT bludgeoning damage; This increases to 2d10 Bludgeoning damage at level 5; 3d10 damage at level 11; (so on for similar to cantrip scaling)
I wished Sorcerers kept the concepts presented in 4e as more tanky close ranged nova blasters that exceled in dealing lots of damage all over the place. As their powers grew, they became more like the creatures that their magic derived from, even being able to transform into versions of said creature in high levels.
I also do miss how each Power sources (Marital, Primal, Arcane, Divine, and Psionic) had a class that could fill a different role such as a defender, a dps, a support, a healer, or a leader like role.
While it would not solve every problem that the Sorcerer has, being able to switch out one spell per long rest and added prepared spells would go a long way towards making the Sorcerer a more friendly class to more players. Sorcerers may not learn their spells from a book, but they still have to train and test out their magic through trial and error. They aren't master right out the gate just because their magic is fused with their soul/blood.
I wish they would go back and add prepared spells to the older sorcerer subclasses. I might just do it myself if they don't but still wish WotC would address this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
You would have Psionic abilities that you would choose at 1st level that you could pick Psi Point upgrades at certain levels. Pick a subclass at level 3 which gives you different abilities only available to that subclass.
Telekinesis: (choose at 1st level)
Base Ability- As an action you can lift an item or creature that you can see within 60 ft of you. You can lift a weight up to 10x your INT modifier or a medium or smaller creature. If you target a creature they must make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against your Psionic DC or be moved up to 20 ft.
Psi Point Upgrades: (choose at various levels)
Psionic Leverage- When you use your telekinesis ability you can spend psi points to increase the amount you can lift.
1 psi point = Additional 100lbs per psi point spend (Number could be tweaked just an example)
2 psi point= One larger size creature (Maximum of Huge)
Psionic Press
You can attempt to destroy the object or creature you are holding via telekinesis. While using the Telekinesis action you can spend Psi points to inflict damage on the target of the ability.
2 psi points = 1d10 + INT bludgeoning damage; This increases to 2d10 Bludgeoning damage at level 5; 3d10 damage at level 11; (so on for similar to cantrip scaling)
Doing it by weight would slow down the game since most things don’t have an actual weight assigned. The DM would be scrambling to assign weights to things. It would be faster, simpler, and more DM friendly to go off of straight size (Tiny-Gargantuan).
You would have Psionic abilities that you would choose at 1st level that you could pick Psi Point upgrades at certain levels. Pick a subclass at level 3 which gives you different abilities only available to that subclass.
Telekinesis: (choose at 1st level)
Base Ability- As an action you can lift an item or creature that you can see within 60 ft of you. You can lift a weight up to 10x your INT modifier or a medium or smaller creature. If you target a creature they must make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against your Psionic DC or be moved up to 20 ft.
Psi Point Upgrades: (choose at various levels)
Psionic Leverage- When you use your telekinesis ability you can spend psi points to increase the amount you can lift.
1 psi point = Additional 100lbs per psi point spend (Number could be tweaked just an example)
2 psi point= One larger size creature (Maximum of Huge)
Psionic Press
You can attempt to destroy the object or creature you are holding via telekinesis. While using the Telekinesis action you can spend Psi points to inflict damage on the target of the ability.
2 psi points = 1d10 + INT bludgeoning damage; This increases to 2d10 Bludgeoning damage at level 5; 3d10 damage at level 11; (so on for similar to cantrip scaling)
Doing it by weight would slow down the game since most things don’t have an actual weight assigned. The DM would be scrambling to assign weights to things. It would be faster, simpler, and more DM friendly to go off of straight size (Tiny-Gargantuan).
Sigh....that's why I attempted to add the disclaimer to the post but I guess people will not be deterred to nitpick when the focus is not on the details but rather the overall design.
Honestly I give 0 shits on how people choose to do the weight thing (lbs or size I dont care) but rather that the idea behind how a Psionic class would work.
You would have Psionic abilities that you would choose at 1st level that you could pick Psi Point upgrades at certain levels. Pick a subclass at level 3 which gives you different abilities only available to that subclass.
Telekinesis: (choose at 1st level)
Base Ability- As an action you can lift an item or creature that you can see within 60 ft of you. You can lift a weight up to 10x your INT modifier or a medium or smaller creature. If you target a creature they must make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against your Psionic DC or be moved up to 20 ft.
Psi Point Upgrades: (choose at various levels)
Psionic Leverage- When you use your telekinesis ability you can spend psi points to increase the amount you can lift.
1 psi point = Additional 100lbs per psi point spend (Number could be tweaked just an example)
2 psi point= One larger size creature (Maximum of Huge)
Psionic Press
You can attempt to destroy the object or creature you are holding via telekinesis. While using the Telekinesis action you can spend Psi points to inflict damage on the target of the ability.
2 psi points = 1d10 + INT bludgeoning damage; This increases to 2d10 Bludgeoning damage at level 5; 3d10 damage at level 11; (so on for similar to cantrip scaling)
Doing it by weight would slow down the game since most things don’t have an actual weight assigned. The DM would be scrambling to assign weights to things. It would be faster, simpler, and more DM friendly to go off of straight size (Tiny-Gargantuan).
Sigh....that's why I attempted to add the disclaimer to the post but I guess people will not be deterred to nitpick when the focus is not on the details but rather the overall design.
Honestly I give 0 shits on how people choose to do the weight thing (lbs or size I dont care) but rather that the idea behind how a Psionic class would work.
Sigh....
It wasn’t a “nitpick,” just a constructive observation.
Its a bit like looking at a body design for a car and saying "you should put an engine in the hood area. Engines make the car go" in terms of how useful it is to the conversation. Yes its not entirely wrong and likely constructive but not really helpful.
The focus of the post (which was lost on you it seems which could be partially my fault) was to look at how a class design for using at-will abilities that can be upgraded with points would look.
The nittiy gritty details on numbers/choices could be done later but the basic concept is:
You have at will abilities like telekinesis, telepathy, etc.... that is empowered in different ways with points. You get to choose how it is empowered. Subclasses would focus on different aspects like: Martial build (Soulknife abilit where you can summon psi blades and augment them in different ways), Purist build (Focus on making the core psionic abilites more powerful), and Elder Brain (focus on enchantment like effects) or what have you.
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
Its a bit like looking at a body design for a car and saying "you should put an engine in the hood area. Engines make the car go" in terms of how useful it is to the conversation. Yes its not entirely wrong and likely constructive but not really helpful.
The focus of the post (which was lost on you it seems which could be partially my fault) was to look at how a class design for using at-will abilities that can be upgraded with points would look.
The nittiy gritty details on numbers/choices could be done later but the basic concept is:
You have at will abilities like telekinesis, telepathy, etc.... that is empowered in different ways with points. You get to choose how it is empowered. Subclasses would focus on different aspects like: Martial build (Soulknife abilit where you can summon psi blades and augment them in different ways), Purist build (Focus on making the core psionic abilites more powerful), and Elder Brain (focus on enchantment like effects) or what have you.
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
Your point was not lost on me at all.
I apologize for trying to help support your idea. Won’t happen again.
I really don't get all this fuss about a pure psionic class and new mechanism for psionic play. WOTC looked at it, and decided they could not make it work, or recognized the pushback from the player base, or got a call from Cthulhu stating he would end the planet if WOTC started messing in his bailiwick. It really does not matter why WOTC ended this line of work. They did. Get over it. It is a good thing for the player base and DM's, and the planet as a whole if the reason was the third one.
The particulars of how to implement a class are beyond the scope of the discussion in the first place. Everyone knows that it can be done, Wizards simply refuses to do it. The particulars of how are best saved for when DDB grants access to homebrew class creation.
Frankly, the purpose of this discussion mostly seems to be venting spleen, as the mechanics have already been decided and nothing will ever change them again. I would contest that another purpose of the discussion is to attempt to raise awareness beyond simple casual surface-level understanding of why these sorts of distinctions matter. Many players still don't understand why these things are such a problem. They don't understand why a druid should be different than a cleric, or why a cleric should be different from a wizard, or why a wizard should be different from a rogue, or any of that. Psionics is an unfortunately easy trigger, but truly, the discussion can be expanded so far beyond simply psychic abilities.
People like to bag on the species changes in Tasha's Cauldron, as one example. Screaming on and on and on that the ability to move points around eliminates all sense of weight for a species and that it degrades the meaning and impact of a player's choices during character creation, all while the very same people proclaim that class doesn't matter and anyone can simply use the Power Of Imagination(TM) to reskin any class into any other class and be just fine. It's utterly ridiculous. The choice of which mechanical framework you're going to seed a character with should be a crucial one. Species should absolutely matter, and one's species should have a mechanical impact on their character. One's upbringing/background/culture should have a mechanical impact on one's character, far beyond simply fishing for the best extra proficiencies the way people do now. One's class should have an enormous impact on one's character in a class-based system like this one, and that requires classes that can meet the needs of as many players and as many character concepts as possible.
That is not currently the case. If your character isn't a stand-in expy for a Lord of the Rings character, Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition does not have much of anything to offer you. Players have to work hard to break away from the tired old tropes without breaking the system. Why? Why is the system so fixated on playing the same story over and over and over and over and over again? Why are so many players met with sneers of derision when they come to a table with bright, intriguing new ideas that weren't a thing when Tolkien wrote books fifty years ago? Why is it that the "The World's greatest Role Playing Game" is so mired in its own sordid, muddy history that it cannot tolerate anything new?
Yes, those are in fact my priorities. The world sucks anyway, and 2020 has proven its all downhill from now on. I think the Mayans had it right, it’s just taking longer than expected. May as well at least have cool Psionics for the apocalypse.
The particulars of how to implement a class are beyond the scope of the discussion in the first place. Everyone knows that it can be done, Wizards simply refuses to do it. The particulars of how are best saved for when DDB grants access to homebrew class creation.
Good gods I hope this is on their radar for soon...
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
I actually loved the Psi Die. I was just enjoying my Psi Knight last night in fact. I think “Psi Points” were soooo 3 editions ago.
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
I actually loved the Psi Die. I was just enjoying my Psi Knight last night in fact. I think “Psi Points” were soooo 3 editions ago.
They are simple and straight forward which is what they seem to want for 5e.
They fit the theme better for psionics too as the wonky die was an odd fit for the psionic mind master.
I'll confess that on this board, I was very critical of Spell Versatility, fearing that it might give wizards an advantage over sorcerers, but on the actual survey, I feel I was more nuanced. I said I liked the idea, that it might be overpowered for certain campaigns where wizards don't have opportunities to fill up their spellbooks, and that in such cases, the DM could just not allow that feature. I sincerely hope I didn't play a (very small) role in them scrapping Spell Versatility, assuming the leaks are true (which given how ridiculous it is that wizards can switch out a cantrip on a long rest but nobody else can, I'm still holding out hope the leaks are false).
I'll confess that on this board, I was very critical of Spell Versatility, fearing that it might give wizards an advantage over sorcerers, but on the actual survey, I feel I was more nuanced. I said I liked the idea, that it might be overpowered for certain campaigns where wizards don't have opportunities to fill up their spellbooks, and that in such cases, the DM could just not allow that feature. I sincerely hope I didn't play a (very small) role in them scrapping Spell Versatility, assuming the leaks are true (which given how ridiculous it is that wizards can switch out a cantrip on a long rest but nobody else can, I'm still holding out hope the leaks are false).
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
I actually loved the Psi Die. I was just enjoying my Psi Knight last night in fact. I think “Psi Points” were soooo 3 editions ago.
They are simple and straight forward which is what they seem to want for 5e.
They fit the theme better for psionics too as the wonky die was an odd fit for the psionic mind master.
I disagree. The die worked very well once one wrapped their head around the concept the way it was intended to represent Psionics.
It was intended to represent a store of mental energy that ebbs and flows throughout the day. If you rolled high, it would drain your power for a bit because you had over extended yourself. If you rolled low it improved your power for a bit because you had managed to conserve your energy. It was like a short rest mechanic that didn’t require a rest.
In addition, as you leveled up the die size increased thereby lowering the statistical probability of either a boom or a bust. That was a very good representation of the “mental master” increasing their control over their powers as they gained knowledge and experience.
People keep saying that it was “too random to represent a mental master.” But if one actually runs the statistics one can see how much lower the probability of busting the die gets in relation to level ups.
The Psi Die really only had two problems, neither of which had anything to do with the actual mechanic itself. One problem had to do with how it was implemented, and the other had to do with player expectations.
The implementation problem stems from the fact that it was awkwardly bolted onto subclasses for other classes. That resulted in WotC not being able to add enough stuff to do with the Die since it had to be balanced with Action Surge and Sneak Attack, etc. If the Psi Die had been attached to a whole new class that was designed for it, it would have been applicable to more things and still been balanced. That would have really given the mechanic a chance to shine.
The expectation problem stemmed from the fact that players like a very predictable, very linear progression of resource to payout. Players like knowing that if they spend X, they get Y, and that they now have N-1 uses of X remaining before they have to rest to replenish N. Players like that because of how predictable the mechanic and the outcomes are. The Psi Die was not nearly so predictable on a Long Rest-Long Rest basis. However, if one aggregated the statistical probabilities over the course of an entire campaign they would have seen hat the mechanic was not nearly as variable as people suspected. People like nice, boring, predictable resources. But those same players are fine with a Bag of Beans or a Deck of Many Things. 🤷♂️
I've always been deeply confused by folks who assume that wizards should always have dozens and dozens and dozens of extra, out-of-progression spells handed to them for freebies. Wizards already get more than twice the spell count of any sorcerer, bard, or warlock. Forty-four spells selected from the most impressive spell list in the game by far, while any given sorcerer considers themselves unbelievably fortunate if they get even a single spell over the fifteen they're allotted from about half of the wizard spell list, and most of that the bad half. Wizards can steal spells from other sources, yes - why this is considered The Norm rather than a useful bonus they can gain if they're lucky is beyond my understanding.
And even if it is the norm and any DM who denies a wizard the chance to learn every wizard spell in D&D is completely evil...how does this impact Spell Versatility in any meaningful way?
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How I would do it with an example!
You would have Psionic abilities that you would choose at 1st level that you could pick Psi Point upgrades at certain levels. Pick a subclass at level 3 which gives you different abilities only available to that subclass.
Telekinesis: (choose at 1st level)
Base Ability- As an action you can lift an item or creature that you can see within 60 ft of you. You can lift a weight up to 10x your INT modifier or a medium or smaller creature. If you target a creature they must make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against your Psionic DC or be moved up to 20 ft.
Psi Point Upgrades: (choose at various levels)
Psionic Leverage- When you use your telekinesis ability you can spend psi points to increase the amount you can lift.
1 psi point = Additional 100lbs per psi point spend (Number could be tweaked just an example)
2 psi point= One larger size creature (Maximum of Huge)
Psionic Press
You can attempt to destroy the object or creature you are holding via telekinesis. While using the Telekinesis action you can spend Psi points to inflict damage on the target of the ability.
2 psi points = 1d10 + INT bludgeoning damage; This increases to 2d10 Bludgeoning damage at level 5; 3d10 damage at level 11; (so on for similar to cantrip scaling)
I wished Sorcerers kept the concepts presented in 4e as more tanky close ranged nova blasters that exceled in dealing lots of damage all over the place. As their powers grew, they became more like the creatures that their magic derived from, even being able to transform into versions of said creature in high levels.
I also do miss how each Power sources (Marital, Primal, Arcane, Divine, and Psionic) had a class that could fill a different role such as a defender, a dps, a support, a healer, or a leader like role.
While it would not solve every problem that the Sorcerer has, being able to switch out one spell per long rest and added prepared spells would go a long way towards making the Sorcerer a more friendly class to more players. Sorcerers may not learn their spells from a book, but they still have to train and test out their magic through trial and error. They aren't master right out the gate just because their magic is fused with their soul/blood.
I wish they would go back and add prepared spells to the older sorcerer subclasses. I might just do it myself if they don't but still wish WotC would address this.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Doing it by weight would slow down the game since most things don’t have an actual weight assigned. The DM would be scrambling to assign weights to things. It would be faster, simpler, and more DM friendly to go off of straight size (Tiny-Gargantuan).
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Sigh....that's why I attempted to add the disclaimer to the post but I guess people will not be deterred to nitpick when the focus is not on the details but rather the overall design.
Honestly I give 0 shits on how people choose to do the weight thing (lbs or size I dont care) but rather that the idea behind how a Psionic class would work.
Sigh....
It wasn’t a “nitpick,” just a constructive observation.
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Its a bit like looking at a body design for a car and saying "you should put an engine in the hood area. Engines make the car go" in terms of how useful it is to the conversation. Yes its not entirely wrong and likely constructive but not really helpful.
The focus of the post (which was lost on you it seems which could be partially my fault) was to look at how a class design for using at-will abilities that can be upgraded with points would look.
The nittiy gritty details on numbers/choices could be done later but the basic concept is:
You have at will abilities like telekinesis, telepathy, etc.... that is empowered in different ways with points. You get to choose how it is empowered. Subclasses would focus on different aspects like: Martial build (Soulknife abilit where you can summon psi blades and augment them in different ways), Purist build (Focus on making the core psionic abilites more powerful), and Elder Brain (focus on enchantment like effects) or what have you.
Its an easier mechanic to understand and implement than the ghastly psi die were and have a lot more personalization/control over what you want to do with the build.
Your point was not lost on me at all.
I apologize for trying to help support your idea. Won’t happen again.
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I really don't get all this fuss about a pure psionic class and new mechanism for psionic play. WOTC looked at it, and decided they could not make it work, or recognized the pushback from the player base, or got a call from Cthulhu stating he would end the planet if WOTC started messing in his bailiwick. It really does not matter why WOTC ended this line of work. They did. Get over it. It is a good thing for the player base and DM's, and the planet as a whole if the reason was the third one.
I think they can still change their minds....gods know they have done it enough.
**** the planet, let it burn. I want Psionics.
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Priorates, Sposta. Priorates.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
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The particulars of how to implement a class are beyond the scope of the discussion in the first place. Everyone knows that it can be done, Wizards simply refuses to do it. The particulars of how are best saved for when DDB grants access to homebrew class creation.
Frankly, the purpose of this discussion mostly seems to be venting spleen, as the mechanics have already been decided and nothing will ever change them again. I would contest that another purpose of the discussion is to attempt to raise awareness beyond simple casual surface-level understanding of why these sorts of distinctions matter. Many players still don't understand why these things are such a problem. They don't understand why a druid should be different than a cleric, or why a cleric should be different from a wizard, or why a wizard should be different from a rogue, or any of that. Psionics is an unfortunately easy trigger, but truly, the discussion can be expanded so far beyond simply psychic abilities.
People like to bag on the species changes in Tasha's Cauldron, as one example. Screaming on and on and on that the ability to move points around eliminates all sense of weight for a species and that it degrades the meaning and impact of a player's choices during character creation, all while the very same people proclaim that class doesn't matter and anyone can simply use the Power Of Imagination(TM) to reskin any class into any other class and be just fine. It's utterly ridiculous. The choice of which mechanical framework you're going to seed a character with should be a crucial one. Species should absolutely matter, and one's species should have a mechanical impact on their character. One's upbringing/background/culture should have a mechanical impact on one's character, far beyond simply fishing for the best extra proficiencies the way people do now. One's class should have an enormous impact on one's character in a class-based system like this one, and that requires classes that can meet the needs of as many players and as many character concepts as possible.
That is not currently the case. If your character isn't a stand-in expy for a Lord of the Rings character, Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition does not have much of anything to offer you. Players have to work hard to break away from the tired old tropes without breaking the system. Why? Why is the system so fixated on playing the same story over and over and over and over and over again? Why are so many players met with sneers of derision when they come to a table with bright, intriguing new ideas that weren't a thing when Tolkien wrote books fifty years ago? Why is it that the "The World's greatest Role Playing Game" is so mired in its own sordid, muddy history that it cannot tolerate anything new?
Why is that, hm?
Please do not contact or message me.
Yes, those are in fact my priorities. The world sucks anyway, and 2020 has proven its all downhill from now on. I think the Mayans had it right, it’s just taking longer than expected. May as well at least have cool Psionics for the apocalypse.
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Good gods I hope this is on their radar for soon...
I actually loved the Psi Die. I was just enjoying my Psi Knight last night in fact. I think “Psi Points” were soooo 3 editions ago.
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They are simple and straight forward which is what they seem to want for 5e.
They fit the theme better for psionics too as the wonky die was an odd fit for the psionic mind master.
I'll confess that on this board, I was very critical of Spell Versatility, fearing that it might give wizards an advantage over sorcerers, but on the actual survey, I feel I was more nuanced. I said I liked the idea, that it might be overpowered for certain campaigns where wizards don't have opportunities to fill up their spellbooks, and that in such cases, the DM could just not allow that feature. I sincerely hope I didn't play a (very small) role in them scrapping Spell Versatility, assuming the leaks are true (which given how ridiculous it is that wizards can switch out a cantrip on a long rest but nobody else can, I'm still holding out hope the leaks are false).
Refreshing take!
Yeah I feel the same way about Favored Foe.
I disagree. The die worked very well once one wrapped their head around the concept the way it was intended to represent Psionics.
It was intended to represent a store of mental energy that ebbs and flows throughout the day. If you rolled high, it would drain your power for a bit because you had over extended yourself. If you rolled low it improved your power for a bit because you had managed to conserve your energy. It was like a short rest mechanic that didn’t require a rest.
In addition, as you leveled up the die size increased thereby lowering the statistical probability of either a boom or a bust. That was a very good representation of the “mental master” increasing their control over their powers as they gained knowledge and experience.
People keep saying that it was “too random to represent a mental master.” But if one actually runs the statistics one can see how much lower the probability of busting the die gets in relation to level ups.
The Psi Die really only had two problems, neither of which had anything to do with the actual mechanic itself. One problem had to do with how it was implemented, and the other had to do with player expectations.
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I've always been deeply confused by folks who assume that wizards should always have dozens and dozens and dozens of extra, out-of-progression spells handed to them for freebies. Wizards already get more than twice the spell count of any sorcerer, bard, or warlock. Forty-four spells selected from the most impressive spell list in the game by far, while any given sorcerer considers themselves unbelievably fortunate if they get even a single spell over the fifteen they're allotted from about half of the wizard spell list, and most of that the bad half. Wizards can steal spells from other sources, yes - why this is considered The Norm rather than a useful bonus they can gain if they're lucky is beyond my understanding.
And even if it is the norm and any DM who denies a wizard the chance to learn every wizard spell in D&D is completely evil...how does this impact Spell Versatility in any meaningful way?
Please do not contact or message me.